rs6 vs m3 csl (among many other things...)

[madmark]

After a wonderfull year of ownership Ive decided to seel the rs6 partly due to the apauling residuals. Ive had a decent bid on it against an m3 csl which seems too good to be true . I know the 2 cars are in different leagues but does anyone think the csl will hold its value a little better due to its rarity .? Im a little apprehensive as if i dont like the csl , they have stopped production of the rs6 saloon now , does this mean residuals will plummit or get better ,?? any help would be more than appreciated !!

[Klint]

Originally posted by madmark
After a wonderfull year of ownership Ive decided to seel the rs6 partly due to the apauling residuals. Ive had a decent bid on it against an m3 csl which seems too good to be true . I know the 2 cars are in different leagues but does anyone think the csl will hold its value a little better due to its rarity .? Im a little apprehensive as if i dont like the csl , they have stopped production of the rs6 saloon now , does this mean residuals will plummit or get better ,?? any help would be more than appreciated !!

I've found a couple CSLs recently go for the price of a new normal M3 after only a couple months on the registration date and approx. 2,000miles on the odo. These were going for around the £45,000 region...compared to the £60,000 price when new, that's one big hit on the first owner of any car for such a short space of time. I don't even think the 550/575s from Ferrari plummet that much! :O

I doubt the CSL will hold it's value, because the press/motoring world percieved it as "not worthy" in comparison to the normal M3...and not forgetting that there's a new 3 series shortly around the corner...who knows how far it'll depreciate?

I think if you take the deal on the CSL you'll be taking a bigger step backwards than you want to with depreciation being a major factor.

[madmark]

Thanks for your help klint its what i suspected , I had hoped for the rs6 to be rarer than it is (as the dealer said it would be !) and therefore hold its value better than it has . i have to be careful as ive blown fortunes on cars over the last 5 years !! It would be far cheaper to be a crack addict !!So ill slap the csl off then
many thanks
mark

[Aronis]

I think over the next few months as the last few RS6's leave their dealer lots, and the spring comes, the number of RS 6's in use will drop due to spirited summer driving and ill-prepared drivers! IE they will be many crashes and the number of virgin RS6's will drop!

That should help them hold value!

But, if you are really concerned about value, you should buy stocks, not cars!

I leased mine for 4 years and will drive the wheels square! I keep my cars in excellent condition, but have yet to benifit from this at the end of a lease! They rarely are worth more than the buy out, and you have to find a real fanatic to pay top dollar for a four year old car, regardless of its condition.

You can't bank on car values, unless it is a true unique and has 10 miles on it!

Mike

My car is my therapy! not an investment of any other kind, just for fun!

[rs6w]

Originally posted by Aronis

My car is my therapy! not an investment of any other kind, just for fun!

Bingo! That's how I look at it.

I never bought the RS6 looking at it as an investment. It was something I wanted and knew I would enjoy.

I learned a long time ago that cars != investments.

[bilbozilla]

I've got a neighbor with a Ferarri F-40 parked in his garage as his crowning achievement - and he never drives it! Performance cars are exactly what Aronis stated - therapy (and the occasional ego boost). I keep telling my neighbor he's got to drive the F-40 to not only keep it running properly, but to prevent all kinds of problems from happening. Trust funds do not a wise man make. He tells me it's an investment and needs to be babied to maintain its value. His loss.

I've got several friends with ferraris they use as their every-other-daily drivers and they wear their scars of daily use with pride. Just enjoy your vehicles.

I keep my vehicles maintained, I wash them 6-8 times a year, and keep it parked in either my garage or in the back corner of parking lots when I take it out to avoid door dings. I lease mine for 3 years, hand them the keys at the end of the lease and pick a new one and have never regretted my cash outlays.

It's therapy sans doctor's couch.

[Bauer]

Cars are not investments...on a very rare occasion they can be such as a original 427 cobra if purchased right. Other than that expect to loose money and I agree with the others here that the car is therapy and very good therapy at that.

I have had friends tell me that the payment has got to be high on my RS6.....I just tell them " the paymemt comes once a month but I get to drive it everyday":wo:

[Erik]

The CSL is certainly more limited than the RS6, I guess it would hold its value longer.

Are you in the UK? I think around 450 pcs. of CSL were imported.

I hope to see you around Nürburgring this summer because that's were the CSL belongs. :incar:

[Nordschleife]

I fear that the M3 CSL will depreciate at a very high rate as its very poor value for money.
Having driven one, I can say its very nice, quite a race car feel to it, but ultimately too slow.
Both the M3CSL and the RS6 are poor value cars. Why not try the Gallardo, a much better proposition. If you need a saloon, then the Evo is the best driver.

R+C

[Erik]

Too slow? On the track there aren't many cars faster.
The tires help of course, but still.

[Nordschleife]

Erik
The M3CSL is a great track car, in Germany it simply isn't fast enough on the way to the track.
At the same level of performance, the GT3 is too slow, although it is fast on the track.
Being passed by lardy bummed RS6 station wagons really pisses M3CSL and GT3RS drivers off! Perhaps this is one reason there are so many for sale, at the end of the day, few spend much time on the track, it would be nice if they were faster on the way to the track and elsewhere, where they do spend most of their time.
In the future, I anticipate that VAG customers will turn more and more to Lamborghini for performance and driving pleasure.
Audi will provide second tier limousines and lifestyle cars like the TT and fast transport for antique dealers. All these tricked out A3/A4/A6 variants are not about performance, they are about being 'cool', being sportive in character, having a certain elan, making statements about their owners. As such the more powerful versions make excellent understated express transports, which is where the RS range comes in.
I don't believe we should get too excited about the Quattro Le Mans car, it will always a much softer car than the Lamborghini, in reality, otherwise there is no point in having Lamborghini, is there?

R+C

[Finnus]

I don't believe we should get too excited about the Quattro Le Mans car, it will always a much softer car than the Lamborghini, in reality, otherwise there is no point in having Lamborghini, is there?

Nordschleife,

I agree (grudgingly) that the LMQ will be "much softer" than the prototype. When the chairman of VAG says it will have far less hp than the prototype, you have to take note and listen.

I disagree with you on the second point. If there was no Lamborghini, the Lambo buyers wouldn't be flocking to Audi, no matter how good the LMQ was. So, would the LMQ really compete with Lambo? Perhaps on paper.

If Audi can build the LMQ as something respectible (read able to run with the Porsche turbo but with a more comfortable interior) at a price point close to the Porsche, then Audi may have found a market niche that doesn't compete with Lambo.

Porsche has such a loyal following and with record sales, I don't think they have to worry. Besides, isn't Porsche developing a sport sedan and won't that compete with the RS line, especially the RS6?

Finnus



:addict:

[Erik]

Originally posted by Finnus
Porsche has such a loyal following and with record sales, I don't think they have to worry. Besides, isn't Porsche developing a sport sedan and won't that compete with the RS line, especially the RS6?


Porsche USA is interviewing Audi customers for their reaction
on their new design. That has got to mean something...

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6245&highlight=audi

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Finnus



If Audi can build the LMQ as something respectible (read able to run with the Porsche turbo but with a more comfortable interior) at a price point close to the Porsche, then Audi may have found a market niche that doesn't compete with Lambo.

Porsche has such a loyal following and with record sales, I don't think they have to worry. Besides, isn't Porsche developing a sport sedan and won't that compete with the RS line, especially the RS6?



Finnus

Having bought Lamborghini and invested vast amounts of money and the best staff in facilities, tooling and new models, why would VAG allow Audi, the nominal parent of the Lambo daughter (don't worry, this is the literal translation of Germany corporate speak), to devalue the investment by selling cars which compete head on with those of the new acquisition?

The LMQ will not take on the Porsche Turbo, that is being done by the Gallardo. Porsche is, and rightly, very very worried. Sales of the 996 and Boxster are tanking (as they always do when there is no proper factory racing program), all that is underpinning their sales are the various versions of the Cayenne, designed and build for them by VAG - only assembled in Leipzig - the assembly line there even has the same equipment as the A8 assembly line, the VAG signature is there for all to see.

In Germany, at any rate, there are large numbers of Porsches being traded in on Gallardos, ask any Lambo dealer and they will make you a good deal on a used Porsche.

Now lets look at Lamborghini's future model plans, well some of them, we are expecting an off-roader (hello Cayenne) and a 4-door luxury car - sounds like Lamborghini is going after Zuffenhausen to me!

So maybe the LMQ might take on the basic C2s and C4s with a better TT competing with the new Boxster; its no coincidence that Audi is the parent of Lamborghini, is it? Although when sitting in the car, it didn't feel particularly sportive to me, rather closer to the luxury coupe as an experience.

Remember, the V10 engine is an Audi engine, it will end up in several Audis which will take chunks out of BMW and Mercedes/AMG executive express sales.

By the way, do not underestimate the Porsche Turbo interior, in Germany you can specify absolutely stunning interiors of the highest possible standards, right up there with Bentley, Aston Martin and Rolls Royce, its just that US dealers, understandably, are not all that keen on helping customers specify them, as its very easy to get it wrong without being able to mock it up first, and it requires quite a long lead time, which flies in the face of the US shopping experience which leans towards the "I want it, and I want it Now" school of gratification. So basic black it is, for the most part.

R+C

[Finnus]

Porsche USA is interviewing Audi customers for their reaction

So Porsche is designing something to appeal to Audi customers. Why is VAG so concerned about LMQ competing with Lambo, but not Porsche with Audi???

Sounds like VAG is talking out of both sides of its [big] mouth. :vgrumpy:

Audi: Just build the 600 hp LMQ, raise the bar, and let Lambo respond. If Audi doesn't do it, some other manufacturer will (for example, the Daimler-Benze ME 4 12 - granted in another class altogether, but you get the point) and VAG misses the opportunity!!! Take off the gloves and come out fighting.

And while I'm "ranting", build the enxt RS6 sonner in the new body style lifecycle.

Finnus
:addict:

[Finnus]

Having bought Lamborghini and invested vast amounts of money and the best staff in facilities, tooling and new models, why would VAG allow Audi ... to devalue the investment by selling cars which compete head on with those of the new acquisition?

Because Audi would sell more cars and raise brand awareness, and, I guess Lambo would have to "raise the bar" to compete (and Porsche, too).

Finnus
:addict:

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Finnus
So Porsche is designing something to appeal to Audi customers. Why is VAG so concerned about LMQ competing with Lambo, but not Porsche with Audi???



Because VAG already has Porsche by the balls - they build the Cayenne, the new 4 door Porsche will be on a platform not unrelated to the Cayenne. Porsche is a competitor, Lamborghini is a group company.
VAG IS dealing with Porsche - it has a series of AWD/SUV vehicles, announced and unannounced, which counter the Cayenne, it has the A8/Lambo limo/Bentley Continental GT and Limousine to counter the new 4 door, a revamped TT to go get the Boxster crowd, the QLM to take on the 997 base cars , the Gallardo to counter thr GT2 and 997 Turbo, leaving the Murcielago with the Carrera GT. Whilst systematically taking Porsche apart, the new A6s when they get the V10 will flip the digit to BMW and MB. There is a deal of logic in this plan.

Just remember - "Lamborghini - coming to a dealer near you".

R+C

[nene]

This is certainly one of the coolest threads. We went from RS6 vs M3 CSL to talking about VAG dilluting it's product offerings. WOW. All good folks.

To go back to 'in topic', I would love to have an RS6 and an M3 CSL side by side. HOWEVER....given the choice, I'd take an RS6 each and every day.

Now, I would not call my opinion objective in any way. For one I already own an RS6. For two I've only driven my friends M3 convertible about 3 times, with maybe 15 minutes total time behind the wheel. And for three I'm most definitely in love with sedans/saloons! So there you have it...that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it!

[Erik]

Autocar: "Was the CSL worth it?"

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46m3/4672958-1.html :vhmmm:

[Benman]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
Both the M3CSL and the RS6 are poor value cars. Why not try the Gallardo, a much better proposition.

R+C

I agree with nene. The RS 6 any day.

The RS 6 a poor value vehicle? The Gallardo is double the price with a 15% hike in performance. And you cant take the wife and kids with you in the Lambo.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Benman
I agree with nene. The RS 6 any day.

The RS 6 a poor value vehicle? The Gallardo is double the price with a 15% hike in performance. And you cant take the wife and kids with you in the Lambo.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

Ben
If you have driven the Gallardo you will never want to drive the RS6 again except on airport and holiday runs. It is a real driver's car.
Look at the RS6 from a value point of view. It is not that well put together - does all your trim align on the inside, does your hood flex at speed, is the panel fit good.... I can go on. The brakes are a poor design, gearboxes and turbos are being destroyed, airconditioning systems develop annoying whines, wind noise is too high, and in the US you get inappropriate seats which often rattle and an annoying box in the trunk. Further the US spec cars did not get the additional intercoolers planned for the car because the dollar tanked.
So yes, the car is poor value, as are almost all cars. Scarcity value is not found from mass produced car manufacturers. I think you will find that the RS6 is no more depreciation proof than any other 'executive' European car. Cars which do have real scarcity value are sought after by a global market, when assessing the potential for normal depreciation to be ameliorated by sustained demand for the car even when used, look to the global production numbers.
I've never driven a starndard M3, only the CSL, as a driving tool its an order of magnitude more interesting than an RS6. Is it perfect? Far from it, the brakes suck and its not fast enough, but its fun.
Did you hear that Wholesale Antiqes Monthly voted the RS6 their WOTY award?

R+C

[Finnus]

Nordschleife,

I find it difficult to see how you can compare a $180,000 sportscar to a $90,000 sports sedan. Its just not a fair fight. I'm curious how you would compare the Gallardo to the Porsche Turbo or perhaps more accurately to the GT2?

Most of us are not running the Beast on the track or doing any really serious hard driving where the flaws you point out become issues. I personally think the build quality is very good on the RS6 & I'm very happy with the car.

What is WOTY (something of the year)? Also, you've mentioned antiques on a couple of occasions - do you collect? If so what? Send me a PM.

:cheers:

Finnus
:addict:

[Nordschleife]

Finnus
In Europe a well equipped RS6 Avant with a quattro special interior and all extras retails for about EUR 120,000. To this add EUR 8,000 for brakes (fitted with car papers updated), engine upgrade to 560bhp, EUR 18,000 and it becomes very easy to compare the two cars. The Gallardo starts at EUR 139,000.
Why this big difference between European and US prices, well graph the dollar against the Euro since the RS6 was announced over two years ago. The RS6 was promised to the US when USD 0.85 bought EUR 1.00; now you have to spend USD 1.25 to buy that same Euro - the dollar has declined over 45 per cent over that period. Lamborghini decided not to take a loss on the Gallardo in the US market, Audi absorbed the currency loss for the RS6.
When comparing cars I believe its better to compare total costs including depreciation. It was cheaper for me to drive a 996 Turbo with an 'exclusive' interior than it was to drive a quattro GmbH customised S4 for two years, the killer was depreciation.
I've driven the Porsche Turbo and it doesn't compare to the Gallardo, unless you need the extra space. The GT2 is closer in terms of performance, but I prefer the Gallardo package, engine, gearbox and ability to cover long distances in bad weather . The GT2 is not a great car on a snowy road!
I'm glad to hear you are happy with your RS6, I hope you remain so, as long as the warranty holds up!
There is a European joke about Antique Dealers driving Volvos because there is so much space in them. WOTY = (Wagon Of The Year).

R+C

[RS6FEVR]

:cheers: all

Great information in this thread. I think we should clarify that while international exchange rates are still dynamic, don't assume that Audi (or any other big international company) "ate" the exchange loss. Companies that deal internationally learned long ago how to hedge their currency and buy forward. Granted, it's a guess on how much currency will be hedged, but it is a great insurance policy to protect the value of the currency the company will be receiving. The NYT had an article not long ago about Porsche, MB, BMW and Audi using this tool to protect themselves quite effectively during the great swing in depreciated dollars.

:addict: FEVR :addict:

[Nordschleife]

Fevr
VAG's preferred currency hedge is by cross purchasing, so you will discover that the latest models across the group have a lot more US sourced parts than previously.
By the time they were setting US prices for the Gallardo, it was too late to hedge the currency. The cost of hedging in uncertain times can get very expensive.
Remember a Lamborghini is a lot less price sensitive than an Audi.

R+C

[Finnus]

In Europe a well equipped RS6 Avant with a quattro special interior and all extras retails for about EUR 120,000 ... The Gallardo starts at EUR 139,000.

Nordschleife,

If the price were that close in the US, I'd think seriously about the Gallardo too. Lets hope that the Audi depreciation curse doesn't hit Lambo, especially if they're coming to a dealer near you (or me).

Finnus
:addict:

[Benman]

Nordschleife,

No i have not driven a Gallardo. But i fail to see how much more of a drivers car than a 911 TT it can be (which i have driven). They're both all wheel drive Beasts and both post similar #s (with the 911 TT costing much less (at least in the states).

As for fit and finish, the RS 6 has a very good quality (better than the 911 TT and better than Mercedes for sure). All Audis have good trim and panel fit and finish that i feel is superior to the competition (although that DANG box in the truck is stupid!).

As for the hood flexing at speeds, i have better things to watch when i'm driving 155mph+ (whoops did i admit that:blush: ).

You make many a good point, but again, here in the States (at our prices) the Gallardo does not make a better value vehicle.:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Benman


No i have not driven a Gallardo. But i fail to see how much more of a drivers car than a 911 TT it can be (which i have driven). They're both all wheel drive Beasts and both post similar #s (with the 911 TT costing much less (at least in the states).



I presume you meant to say

I cannot tell how much more of a driver's car the Galalrdo is than a 911 TT because I haven't driven one

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have driven both the Gallardo and the 996 Turbo. The best way to describe the difference is to consider the 996 Turbo as perhaps the most efficient Gran Turismo in the world, with many of the characteristics of the sportcar. The Gallardo is an outstanding Sportscar, with many of the characteristics of a GT car.

When you drive the cars there is no question which is the faster in any given situation, the Gallardo. The Gallardo feels more like a track car. As far as value goes, if you can source a Gallardo at list you will make yourself a tidy profit selling it on at a premium, not something easy to do with the RS6.

Incidentally, the Porsche Exclusive interior is not only better done than a quattro GmbH supplied custom interior, but its significantly cheaper too. I'm afraid that Audi's superior panel fit and trim alignment is not as consistently good as it used to be.

R+C

[Benman]

So i take it goes without saying that you are smitten with the Gallardo! A better drivers car than the 911TT! Wow, now that's saying something!:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Benman
So i take it goes without saying that you are smitten with the Gallardo! A better drivers car than the 911TT! Wow, now that's saying something!:cheers:

Ben:addict:

Yes, the Gallardo is the best car Audi makes!

R+C

[Benman]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
Yes, the Gallardo is the best car Audi makes!

R+C

Well then i'll have to take your word for it as the opportunity for a test drive will be quite some time away!:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Erik]

911T vs. Gallardo in the latest EVO.

Note the acceleration for the Gallardo is in the wet.

Link here (http://www.jabbasworld.net/viewtopic.php?t=6963&sid=d5eba34087cf8e825d43716322b48c58)

[Klint]

The Gallardo is for the males who shave their chests, legs, arms and other things ;) In todays terms that's Justin Timberlake in character.

The Murcielago in relation is for the hairer chested males, like the way James Bond is.

Still....Give me a Murcielago anyday of the week. :thumb:

[Speedracer]

you have to find a real fanatic to pay top dollar for a four year old car, regardless of its condition.

Especially when the owner will have to pay for parts and service after the warranty runs out!:mech:

[iconcls]

Who would've thunk an analogy could have been drawn from "manscaping" and cars, way to go Klint. :) :D

[iconcls]

...and Nordo,
Life is too short, sell that POS RS 6 already and get a good car...please!?!?

[Mal]

I must admit that I fail to see the relavence of comparing a Gallardo or 911TT with an RS6 as they are after two totally different markets and buyers will choose them for two totally different reasons.

I bought my RS6 because I wanted a roomy family estate car that could be exciting when I wanted. I wanted it to be four wheel drive because I believe in the safety that that provides. When I looked around there is only one car that fits the bill and that is why I bought the RS6. I am under no illusions that a Lambo is a better drivers car or track day car, but there were many more reasons to consider than that. Therefore a lamborghini was never even close to being on my shortlist.

If I wanted the ultimate drivers car with the image of a Lambo then I would not even bat an eyelid at an RS6.

[Erik]

This is interesting.

Here in Sweden, Volvo country, everybody's happy to see that the new S60R and V70R are being compared with cars like the S4, M3 and C32.

I say it's interesting to see a family car like the Audi RS6 being compared with Porsche's finest and the latest Lamborghinis.

Says a lot doesn't it? :king:

[iconcls]

Originally posted by Erik
Says a lot doesn't it? :king:

PRECISELY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[madmark]

sorry i asked!!!