Urgent DRAMA - Discs buggered after 11k miles

[boff]

Hi Guys

Nice forum

I usually hang out on the 246 forum but could do with your help here, I need to get oppinion from a wider audience!

I Just need some feedback - pretty urgent too I'm in discussion with Audi over this one.

I Have an RS6 Saloon, it currently is showing 15k miles on the clock, and from around 11000 miles it has been developing a "scoring" on the discs. The car has drilled discs which at an upgrade costs of £600 were supposed to reduce wear and improve responsiveness. Audi are currently telling me that this is standard "wear-Tear" item and that above 6000 miles they will not replace under warranty. They argue that the wear is due to stones, etc. Which I would accept if the discs hadn't worn in EXACTLY the same way on both side.

I need to know on average how many miles you guys are getting to a set - are you heavy or light on the brakes? My RS4 before did a good 40000miles before it even showed signs of needing new discs and it was driven in exactly the same way as the rs6, and only weighed 200kg less. The back discs are fine and wearing normally.

Why is everything difficult when dealing with Audi?! Tell you what though - funny I should find 6 identical "intelligent" stones which find there way into the same places on each disc!

See images!

[boff]

And the other side - notice they have scored in identical places

[Nordschleife]

Boff
Audi well knows that there is a problem with the RS6 brakes.
Ask why it is that the demonstrator cars always travel with replacement discs, if the UK deny this - tell them to ask the mechanics at quattro Neckarsulm and the Audi Driving Experience in Ingolstadt. When showing off the cars at Le Mans, they changed the rotors on a daily basis.
Stefan Reil, the project manager for the RS6 knows that the brakes are completely useless.
When there was a an RS day held at Hockenheim, the RS6s with the standard brakes (including the useless 'Sports' option) had to stop, unlike those with Mov'it brake setups.
If you were driving in Germany, rather than speed limited Britain, you would have run out of rotors in under 2000 miles. I destroyed one set in a single 400 km trip and I wasn't particularly stopping hard, the ABS never went off, but i was coming down from over 280 to 50 on three occasions, this is tough on brakes.
Everybody I know here in Germany has bitten the bullet and had their brakes upgraded by Mov'it front and rear. The fundemental design of the stock brakes isflawed, there in nothing you can do with them to prevent problems from recurring.

R+C

[Erik]

It's sad, but it seems that all the brakes for cars like the RS6, M5 and the E55 are not up to the job. :mech:

I know that Audi replaced the discs on RS6-Thomas misano red Avant ("sport" brakes) on warranty.

Quote from Sabine, driver of the M5 Ring-Taxi.

Q: Besides tires and brake pad changes, is there anything else required as maintenance on the Ring Taxi above and beyond normal maintenance that they do?
A: "All of the suspension is changed every 5000 km and brake discs are changed much more frequent"

[boff]

It looks as if the Brakes are the RS6's "RS4 Wheels" - unbelievable. It is allmost as if Audi build expensive weak spots into theses RS cars to get good future revenue (via servicing). The Movit systems certainly look good, but to upgrade to those I would certainly be looking for a refund on my 6's "upgraded" discs.

How long will the Movits go for?

Where is the best place in Europe to get them from? How much should I expect to pay?

[Erik]

http://www.movit.de/ will be of good help to find as supplier.
They do not come inexpensive I'm afraid and don't expect any refund from Audi. But they should replace the discs.

If it's any comfort a friend of mine had to change the discs on his E55 AMG after about 15000 km and another friend changed his M5 discs 3 times... :eye:
MB tried to charge him about 900 Euros for the change, but when he said I'm test driving the CL65 tomorrow they gave the discs + work away as warranty. Strange, one second they wanted to charge him a fortune, next moment we walked away without paying...

Just like Nordschleife wrote yesterday, it's probably harder to design brakes for these type of cars than for race cars.
Imagine all the weight that has to come down in speed.

[boff]

Absolutely Right Erik....

...But Porsche get it right, and the Movits are indestructable - why didn't Audi just use Movits, and stop messing about!!

You can imagine the forces in play, but before the RS6 I'd never heard of a car that uses discs faster than pads. Neither my Impreza Turbo or RS4 did!

Thanks for everyones help so far - further comments defo appreciated

[Nordschleife]

Boff

VAG is trying to save money on everything right now. So the accountants try to keep the brake cost down, although those 8 piston front callipers are not cheap. The Audi approach to rear brakes is shamingly bad as well, cheap, cheap, cheap!

You can get Mov'it brakes fitted in the UK, but thats a bit like going to Southend for the weekend. Mov'it are in a little town called Achern, across the Rhine from Strassbourg, between the Black Forest and Alsace. A weekend trip to this delightful region would help soften up the sticker shock of the brake upgrade! Its an easy drive from the channel tunnel to Achern and if you asked Guido, I'm sure he could find you a car for the day to explore. If bringing a significant other, a day in the Spa town of Baden Baden never goes amiss.

Porsche sometimes gets it right. Cayenne Turbo owners are having a terrible time with brakes, in fact Porsche are not doing performance driving courses for SUVs as they run out of brakes so quickly. Similarly, there are a number of 959s (the few with very high performance engines) which are having, or have had brake upgrades, even friends with 968 Clubsports have major brake problems. Remember that next to an RS6, a Carrera 2 is not very heavy nor is it particularly fast, so braking is much less of a problem.

[Klint]

It's up to the dealer wether the brakes are changed under warrenty or not. The more loyal/well known the customer is, the more chance the brakes will be replaced at the manufacturers expense. This is what happened to our M5 prior to the warrenty running out, so it does happen. I don't think Audi UK can do much about it. Frankly, I don't think they give a crap anyway as it isn't their department.

The dealerships are Franchises - do you complain to Mcdonalds world wide because your fries were too salty? If you do, you got the wrong attitude about it.

If you want good braking, go aftermarket, I reccommend AP racing brakes, don't know if they produce any for the RS6. worth a look. Mov'its are just rebranded Porsche stoppers (from what I've heard?) Of course, Porsche do build the best factory braking systems out there on a mass produced vehicle.

If you want durability, go for carbon brakes.

I really don't see the fuss about it? Would you also like Audi UK to refill your car everytime it runs out? :hahahehe:

[Erik]

I've seen a movie where the brakes of the Cayenne starts to burn! :vgrumpy:

And Porsche has a problem with cracks around the holes in the discs.

No one is immune! It's the laws of Physics!

Check here as well:
http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3319

[Erik]

Originally posted by Klint
I really don't see the fuss about it?

I do. If I pay a lot of money for an RS car it should work.

If I smoke the brakes during a track day I could understand it, but for 'normal' driving no.

As far as I've heard the carbon brakes aren't working as supposed yet... Ask Porsche! :nono:

[Klint]

Originally posted by Erik
I do. If I pay a lot of money for an RS car it should work.

If I smoke the brakes during a track day I could understand it, but for 'normal' driving no.

As far as I've heard the carbon brakes aren't working as supposed yet... Ask Porsche! :nono:

hahaha, normal driving here is similar to track driving on the wear and tear parts. Don't know about elsewhere!?!?

I've also heard the PCCB from Porsche has been known to shatter itself several times. Let's see if Ferrari has the same problem with their's (or Brembo's?) on the 360CS. :)

[Nordschleife]

Originally posted by Klint


If you want good braking, go aftermarket, I reccommend AP racing brakes, don't know if they produce any for the RS6. worth a look. Mov'its are just rebranded Porsche stoppers (from what I've heard?) Of course, Porsche do build the best factory braking systems out there on a mass produced vehicle.

If you want durability, go for carbon brakes.

I really don't see the fuss about it? Would you also like Audi UK to refill your car everytime it runs out? :hahahehe:

Klint
Mov'it Brakes are definately NOT rebranded Porsche stoppers, nor have they been for a couple of years.
AP Racing Brakes are very good for racing, some of us remain to be convinced of their suitability for prolonged road use in all seasons. Also, some people have had a lot of problems when they have had to go back to the manufacturer over 'issues', and there are not many AP rear brake kits for the RS6.
As far as Carbon brakes are concerned, have you ever tried using them cold, or heard them squeal?
Generally PCCB (Porsche Composite Ceramic Brakes) should not be confused with Carbon, which is what F1 and similar use.
Finally, it is reasonable to expect a car manufacturer to fit brakes which are not destroyed in the course of one not very fast trip on the way out to have dinner, as was my own experience.

R+C

[JAXRS6]

Originally posted by Klint
hahaha, normal driving here is similar to track driving on the wear and tear parts. Don't know about elsewhere!?!?
I don't drive aggressively most of the time in US, tho there are times I do; maybe 15% of total driving, including several episodes in triple digits. No brake problems @15K miles
:D
But I've had other issues, many posted here. Will know more re ECM next week; it was supposed to be a 1-hour switch, but the replacement ECM apparently was bad -- kept throwing fault codes for things that did not happen. Took 2 days to get another -- one to order, one to ship -- and then they worked on it Friday; not finished, but close, after 4 hours that day alone. Then this poor dealer who didn't sell me the car must address third OnStar backup battery failure, HVAC noises and squeaky shocks before the car will be ready. (I say poor because they got no commission, and the hourly rate they make from AoA for warranty issues is less than what owners pay for non-warranty work...or so I was told. I don't know what the difference is; does anyone else?)

[boff]

Originally posted by Klint

I really don't see the fuss about it? Would you also like Audi UK to refill your car everytime it runs out? :hahahehe:

Klint - I'd love Audi UK to refill my car when it runs out of juice!, but the point here is that I've owned many fast cars to date, all of which haven't used discs before pads (thought that was only an elise which is designed to do that!) My RS4 was good for 40000miles before discs!

When I discussed this with Audi in the early RS6 days they assured me that the RS6 had "similar" runing costs to the RS4. Which now seems to have been shy by approx 2k per annum at 30000 miles p.a. owch! :vgrumpy:

If Audi UK Replace the discs under warranty it would seem that a Movit upgrade needs to be planned. I could understand if the car had been on a track that discs would go..... but as it is I live in London and drive the car exactly like the RS4 before, the car has never been on a track in its life! - I find it hard to justify.

I enjoy the car immensly but this is kind of like getting a Christmas present that you really want and then finding that it is broken on Xmas day 5 minutes after opening it - takes the lustre off the whole occasion - which considdering the value of the car is unfair!

Maybe the company BMW 330d coupe sport is the way to go with a bit of fun for the weekend (caterham / VX220 Turbo). But I think you get the same with all premium car brands - Merc BMW & Audi, a shame!

I appreciate that a fast car has a runing cost attached to it, and with RS4, Scooby, and 911 I'm used to it - discs before pads on RS6 is a bit silly though in my opinion!

[Klint]

Originally posted by boff
Klint - I'd love Audi UK to refill my car when it runs out of juice!, but the point here is that I've owned many fast cars to date, all of which haven't used discs before pads (thought that was only an elise which is designed to do that!) My RS4 was good for 40000miles before discs!

I enjoy the car immensly but this is kind of like getting a Christmas present that you really want and then finding that it is broken on Xmas day 5 minutes after opening it - takes the lustre off the whole occasion - which considdering the value of the car is unfair!



Boff, (agent boff from Johny english?)

I see where your coming from now!

It appears many of the modern super saloons suffer from bad brakes, the Rs6, M5, E55 and the likes.

Maybe it's a call for Audi UK to donate you some brakes and for the manufacturers to find proper stopping power and weight reduction instead of focusing too much on collosal engines with monumental power figures.

Keep us up to date on how it goes.

Also, try going to the dealer where you got your RS4 from, since they know you. :)

[Bauer]

At 10,000 miles...I toasted a set of pads and my rotors are looking a little tired. Audi of America would only replace the pads because the rotors were not "out of spec"and said at about 20K it should be time.

I think NOT:eye: ...seems to me they should have been replace last time around as I get some high speed break shimming. Seems to have gotten a little better as of late....I think some of the break pad material as warn off the rotors as I have been driving a little more mellow. I have done three Audi Club events, two on one set of pads the the third event is on my second set. I have noticed the pad material transfer after an event is pretty heavy. It seems to create more of a warped rotor feel until the material wears off...but I do believe that my rotors are warped anyway...just not enough for AoA.

I am going to take the car in at about 13k to see if I can get them to throw on another set of rotors.

Also, does anyone know if the Gallarado has the same front break set up as the RS6? In pictures they seem to look the same (rotors and calipers)...but you know how that can go.:cheers:

[boff]

It seems we maybe coming to a resolve on this, I will post when I know more.

Thanks for your help guys

Take care

Boff

[nene]

Here's my view on this, as I did some minor research on the issue.
Personally, braking power is the most valuable thing. I upgraded to a Brembo system on my S4 even before I chip'd the car. Now, the move might have been hasty, as I drive an automatic and the stock brakes were fine, but I just figured I'd do it.

After reading this thread, I almost pulled the plug on a set for the RS6. However, Brembo does not yet have a set for the rear, and it took them 3 years to get it done.

The Movi't Set:
Has anyone noticed on the Movi't website that the rear brake system is two separate calipers? My RS6 only has one set of calipers in the rear? I figure the second set is probably for handbrake, but that only exists on the S4, and not on the RS6. Although I'd want a better system, I still want to keep it a clean look. Most definitely a deterrent in my books!

The Brembo Set:
Brembo only currently has a front setup. No replacement for the rears. I will have to call them out on it. Maybe soon they will have both, and I can upgrade the beast.

The Stock Set:
Well....my beast is only at 9.5K miles, and the brakes are still working just fine. They squeal when the system is cold, but after a couple of runs, the sound is gone. No large braking system is immune from that. I don't drive like an old lady, after all I'm only in my early 30s. Is my driving habits that different?
I'm sticking with stock until they prove to be no longer my choice.

[Erik]

Myself, I love the handbrake caliper. That is car pornography :dance:

To the best of my knowledge this is Nordschleife's car.

How could this not be beautiful?

http://www.movit.de/images/audrs603.jpg

http://www.movit.de/images/audrs605.jpg

[Nordschleife]

Nene

To clarify some of your points.

For your information, Automatics are more likely to need better brakes than manuals because drivers apply the brakes all the time when at a standstill (unless engaging Park), which is not the case in a manual car.

A little research will reveal that Audis require a separate rear calliper for the handbrake when mounting seriously better performance rear brakes. The cheeseparing Audi design is based upon the need to cut corners costwise and use the same mechanism for both the handbrake and the footbrake. Well this design ensures that rear brake performance will be unsatisfactory, too many compromises with respect to pad material.
The separate handbrake calliper used on the rear brakes is the same as used by Lamborghini and greatly admired by all who see it in the metal. The only recent performance Audi which did not require this separate handbrake calliper is the RS2, which used Porsche hubs and hence a Porsche handbrake system.
As far as the Brembo rotors are concerned, they lack sufficient metal to stand up to the persistent heat cycling which driving rapidly on modern roads leads to. You will notice that the difference between the outside diameter and the inside diameter is less than that of alternative suppliers.
With respect to the stock brakes, remove the wheel and look and see how the air gets into the centre of the rotors to be spun out through the vanes under centrifugal force, cooling the rotors as it passes through. Well the design makes this impossible. Two further factors compound the problem, the pins isolate the heat in the rotor, allowing temperatures to rise alarmingly; then the large and reassuring looking 8 piston front callipers have remarkably small contact area, concentrating the heat into such a small area that pads catch fire.
If you are able to live with the stock brakes, then that is fine, however do not expect them to stand up to any spirited driving, extensive experience in Europe has demonstrated that the brakes are a serious weak point. Had you been able to attend thwe recent RS Drivers Challenge at Hockenheim you would have seen just how great the difference was between the cars equipped with the stock brakes and those which had been upgraded.

R+C

PS Erik - on a Gray car the calloipers look even better in Yellow

[Erik]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
on a Gray car the callipers look even better in Yellow

I won't argue with that :thumb:

http://www.movit.de/images/audrs610.jpg

[nene]

Thanks Nordschleife for your amazingly detailed description of the issue. I'm sure the Movi't setup is amazing, and makes a large difference. Of that I was never in doubt. I was not sure why the separate caliper was required.
Do you happen to know if your setup fits under the USA 18" rims without requiring additional hardware such as spacers or anything?

Has anyone noticed how badly curb rashed those 19" wheels are? WOW!!!

I think that if I called Brembo, their salesperson would try to couter-point your research on their brakes lacking enough metal material to stand the heat. After all, these are the brake systems that lots of race cars are using.

Once again, I know that your probably pushing the Movi't system as best around, but Brembo has been around for quite some time.

Is the Movi't system use floating rotors as well as Brembo's?
What's the cost on the pads?
How easy are they to install? Brembo's are quite easy to DIY.

[Nordschleife]

Nene
Firstly to clarify things, I am not connected with Mov'it in any way, I'm a customer and have a become a friend of the guys at Mov'it.
The setup in the photographs does fit under the winter 18 inch rims with 10mm spacers. I would expect them to fit under the normal 18 inch wheels as well, not sure but wouldn't be surprised if spacers were not required as the normal 18 inch rims are wider than the winter rims.
Mov'it rotors are attached to the hats using a mounting system which allow for heat expansion, so yes they are 'floating', if that is what you mean.
The cars in the photographs had both been used for considerable amounts of development and one had had to evade a hold up attempt, this is a problem when you have very low profile tyres without any side rim protection - the wheel rim sticks out beyond the tyre rim.
Surprisingly, race rotors have an easier time of it than rotors on a high performance heavy road car. On a race car the rotors are changed after every race, the brakes are warmed up before use, there is no problem with noise, they never get a chance to get cold. By comparison street car brakes have a terrible time and are expected to last much much longer.
The pads on the Mov'it 6 piston calliper are significantly cheaper than the stock pads for the 8 piston callipers and have a much greater swept area.
Whilst you can mount the front brakes yourself without much difficulty, a professional is required to fit the rear brakes.

R+C

[Erik]

Originally posted by nene
What's the cost on the pads?


It think I paid about 140 Euros for mine. (1 pair, front for 322 mm)

[nene]

I was talking about mounting the pads only. I would never do the brake install myself. But as pads wear out, my question was if it's easy to do it yourself. I did the pad change on the S4 myself (Brembo brakes), but did not do the brake install myself.

[Erik]

Even I succeded in replacing the pads without help, so yes it is fairly easy. :mech:

It is probably the first time I change anything on a car expect a flat. :blush:

[JAXRS6]

Dealer looked up prices & said front pads here in the US are $532 or thereabouts; I know I'm close. Rear pads are well under $200 and the total is under $700 USD. The big difference is due to each front wheel needing four pads, while each rear wheel takes only one. All pads have sensors.

[nene]

My 14" Brembo brake pads were around $220 for a set of 4 for the front. They had the $400 for a set of 4, but those were for the track. I didn't think I'd need those.

I'm still interested in the pricing of pads for the Mov'it setup.

[carbonLORD]

Originally posted by Erik
How could this not be beautiful?

Curb rash around the entire wheel hinders some of that beauty :eek: Nice brakes!

<img src=http://www.movit.de/images/audrs605.jpg>

[Nordschleife]

I'm glad you like the look of the brakes and wheels. The rims were damaged during a chase evading highjackers. Both the cars have been used for extensive development work, this is not kind to rims which stick out wider than the tyres.

R+C

[Bauer]

The rims were damaged during a chase evading highjackers.

Are you kidding? Where do you live? I only get the occasional dog chasing my car down the road:D

[carbonLORD]

Originally posted by Nordschleife
I'm glad you like the look of the brakes and wheels. The rims were damaged during a chase evading highjackers. Both the cars have been used for extensive development work, this is not kind to rims which stick out wider than the tyres.

R+C

A chase evading highjackers!:confused:

I know all about the wheels, just messin' with ya.