Loud tapping noise from engine

[nene]

I was planning to take the RS6 for a spirited drive on July 1st around the Quabbin Reservoir in MA, and as I turned the car on a loud tapping noise was happening on the passenger side. I opened the hood/bonnet and recorded the sound as available below. I pulled the car back into the parking spot and decided to take a different car instead.

Worries me that it may be valve engine knocking but wanted to see what others thought. No CEL light is on, and I have not yet had the chance to check using VAGCOM.
Ok to drive to dealer to check, or should I have it towed instead?

Short video:

http://www.htms.org/img/072017/EngineBay.mov

[Aronis]

Cam Tensioners

[hahnmgh63]

nene, what oil have you been using? Sounds lifter related. They don't commonly fail on the 4.2's, rarely but occasionally. How long did you let it idle for? If it wasn't such a pain to take off I would say pull the valve cover and start it up and take a look, otherwise I would start it up and drive it at fairly low RPM's once around the block and see if it gets better. Maybe slowly failing and a bit of increase in oil pressure may be all it needs to bring it back to life. I asked above as oil quality can make a huge difference.

[nene]

The dealer has been doing the oil changes and always recommend RS6 oil has been used. The last oil change was when the 70K service was completed a while back (included fixing valve cover leak), and the car driven since. I'll check the oil level on the car.
Due to travel plans, the car was sitting for about 3 weeks, and I just started it up. I think I may have let it idle for about 5 mins before I shot the video, and just got a bit worried.
Thanks for the feedback and will go through the list of options provided, and see if the sound goes away.

[DHall1]

Double check your invoices for what oil is being used.

Check that pn to be sure it's the 505.01 Castrol diesel spec oil.

These cars are old....very few techs left from the day these were introduced. Most could care less what oil they dump in.

i second the lifter prognosis. Warm it up again and raise the revs

Sorry to see you're having problems. I switched to BND oils years ago


The dealer has been doing the oil changes and always recommend RS6 oil has been used. The last oil change was when the 70K service was completed a while back (included fixing valve cover leak), and the car driven since. I'll check the oil level on the car.
Due to travel plans, the car was sitting for about 3 weeks, and I just started it up. I think I may have let it idle for about 5 mins before I shot the video, and just got a bit worried.
Thanks for the feedback and will go through the list of options provided, and see if the sound goes away.

[NSU RS6]

Back in the olden days as they say......

My five cylinder Audis had a built in reminder for oil change time. Lifter tap. Despite the best oils being used, it would come in at about 3000 miles. Synthetics were good for way more than that, even back then.

The only cure that worked for this, and it wasn't more cowbell, was Rislone. While not exactly an oil substitute, it is a ginormous detergent supplement, and it would loosen sticky lifters for another 2K miles.

To this day, I run a half to full quart of Rislone in the engine the day before an oil change.

Probably going to be seeing flames shortly, as our Cosworth motors deserve only the best wine, but this has worked for me for 30 years

BTW - the wine I run is Redline 5W-40, per Mr. Hahn's recommendation.

Good luck, and I hope it is not a tensioner.....

[nene]

From an oil level perspective I think it looks ok based on my reading. However I am not against doing another oil change since it has been a few months (only 500 miles, maybe)
Checked with VAGCom and nothing in terms of errors.
This morning after I checked the oil level, I started the car and the sound was gone. I rev'd it up to about 3K or so a couple of times and left it idling after for 10 mins, and the sound has not returned. Not saying it is fixed, and I'll go with the easiest solution first of going with a new oil change.
Thanks to all for the great support.

http://www.htms.org/img/072017/OilLevel.jpg

[Bigglezworth]

That's exactly how the car sounds after you change out cam tensioners..... It takes a few minutes prior to disappearing entirely, but it will go away.

[RS6 rick]

Sounds much more like 'cold' lifter tick. If it was chain tensioners it would not go away. I would do a good flush and then see what develops.

[nene]

Update:
The noise has not returned. I have not driven the car hard at all but took it around town for about 30 minute drive. Checked for any engine codes after the drive and nothing.
Left the car overnight and did not restart the car until almost 24 hours later, and the noise still has not returned. Checked for engine codes and all is still clear.

Checked all my past dealer work orders where oil change was made and it seems one of the 2 below were always used:
G052167A2 (discontinued by Audi superseded by M2)= Castrol TXT 505.1 5W-40
G052167M2 = Castrol Edge Turbo Diesel 5W-40

Checked the last invoice, which included my 70K mile service, and part number for oil was:
G052167S0
A quick search on the net and it seems it is 'Castrol Syntec 5w-40 bulk oil'. Oil weight seems correct, and I trust the tech that did the work.
Nevertheless, I have sent an e-mail to BND sales (http://bndautomotive.com) and requested their formula for the RS6. Waiting for a reply, and will order it as soon as I possible.

[DHall1]

That is the wrong oil and will ruin the engine if left in there.

Always verify if you are letting someone fill fluids.

End of story. It's a good thing the engine told you it wasn't happy

Please change it out asap.

[DHall1]

...........

"calls for 5w40. I got that right here at my pumping station"




Double check your invoices for what oil is being used.

Check that pn to be sure it's the 505.01 Castrol diesel spec oil.

These cars are old....very few techs left from the day these were introduced. Most could care less what oil they dump in.

i second the lifter prognosis. Warm it up again and raise the revs

Sorry to see you're having problems. I switched to BND oils years ago

[GreggPDX]

Back in the olden days as they say......

My five cylinder Audis had a built in reminder for oil change time. Lifter tap. Despite the best oils being used, it would come in at about 3000 miles. Synthetics were good for way more than that, even back then.

The only cure that worked for this, and it wasn't more cowbell, was Rislone. While not exactly an oil substitute, it is a ginormous detergent supplement, and it would loosen sticky lifters for another 2K miles.

To this day, I run a half to full quart of Rislone in the engine the day before an oil change.

Probably going to be seeing flames shortly, as our Cosworth motors deserve only the best wine, but this has worked for me for 30 years

BTW - the wine I run is Redline 5W-40, per Mr. Hahn's recommendation.

Good luck, and I hope it is not a tensioner.....

I'll probably join you in getting flamed, but I actually do something similar with Marvel Mystery Oil, top off the oil with it a few days before the change. Despite the name, it's actually got a decent reputation for helping break down deposits and reduce sludge. My grandfather swore by it, but I thought it was snake oil until I tried it on one of my higher mileage cars. It definitely fixed noisy lifters in that one. I then did research on it, and the consensus was it may or may not help, but it's probably not doing harm in any case.

First and foremost is regular oil changes with good oil, but I honestly believe a little extra cleaning on higher mileage engines makes a difference.

[mrdave]

Checked the last invoice, which included my 70K mile service, and part number for oil was:
G052167S0
A quick search on the net and it seems it is 'Castrol Syntec 5w-40 bulk oil'.

And this is exactly why I always do my own maintenance. As DHall1 said, I would not run that oil in my car. The weight may be the same as the proper spec but the additives are likely way off. I've also been using BND and have been very happy with the quality.

[Aronis]

I have been religious about using the exact oil type recommended by Audi. I keep a case on hand. 501.01 spec oil. Currently I have Castrol Edge Professional OE . Covers VW 501.01,502.00,505.00. I found it hard to believe such a thing could make a difference but it was not worth a few bucks difference in price to take a chance. You also have to tell them it take 7.5 liters not 7 and not 8.

Mike

[nene]

Happy we got to the bottom of it and real quick.

[DHall1]

Its funny really. My wife wanders out in my shop/2nd house every now and then and asks why we have so much BND oil on the shelf. " is that new oil?" Yep "How many cars will that stuff fill?" Let me see, we have 4 Audi's an AMG and one diesel pusher. About 66 quarts should do it, any other questions? :-)

That 5/40 Syntec crap is exactly why Audi sent out the service bulletin back in the day.

Use 505.01 oil in the RS6 or you will void the engine warranty.

Its really that simple. The loads placed on RS6 engine oil are critical and need the proper spec.

I had a hunch that dealer used the wrong oil in Nene's car.


And this is exactly why I always do my own maintenance. As DHall1 said, I would not run that oil in my car. The weight may be the same as the proper spec but the additives are likely way off. I've also been using BND and have been very happy with the quality.

[nene]

I have an appt to get the oil changed first thing Friday (tomorrow). I dialed/emailed up the good folks at BND and did not get a response. I suspect Brian is on a well deserved vacation. Once I get a hold of them I'll order some. For now I'll make sure to just fix the issue by replacing the current oil with correct 'G052167M2'.
On a good note I think I've only driven the car 300 miles or so. I suspect no major damage has been done, but looking forward to correcting the previous mistake.

[Aronis]

Are you able to by the BND oil and DIY? I thought they only sold through certified shops?

Mike

[nene]

I got a call back late today from BND but was away. I'll order some and get the filter too, and DIY later. For now I just want to get at the very least something better/correct into the engine bay.

[Aronis]

please post contact info to call BND to order products. thank you.

Mike

[DHall1]

http://bndautomotive.com/contact/

Just give Brian a call.

He is a one man show so at times need to be patient. I order my supplies in advance and always have the next round of service sitting on the shelf.

I could always tell the oil and fuel additives were making the engines run smooth. But that Blackstone oil report at 10000 miles made me a customer for life. Even Blackstone used the word perfect and they don't use that term. 10000 miles of boosted and tuned RS6 thru hot AZ summer driving. Amazing

[nene]

Chatted a bit with Brian and great knowledgeable fellow and wonderful customer service. Got the oil, steering fluid and some Aces IV for the gas tank. Happy camper. So glad we still have folks like Brian around that help us keep these engines going. Good thing DHall1 found them out and shared with us.

[G2]

Agree the noise is a lifter. Sitting for weeks at a time can/will cause the symptom. Especially with somewhat dirty oil as shown. Dirty oil has debris and becomes thicker- things that lifters don't like.

In general if the noise does not start to diminish in 10-15 secs, it's better to shut the engine down. Let it sit for a bit and retry. Residual oil pressure may also help pump up the depressed lifter(s) if in the uncompressed position. Most engines will stop in the same position however. Not sure on the BCY.

Unfortunately we don't have an oil pressure gauge aside from the dummy light.

OIL:

Due to various and severe problems with Castrol, I/we do not use it anymore. Castrol is OE fill to VAG and BMW- I always see oil issues with these cars. After the Gulf spill stopped using all Castrol products. Bastards.

Have serviced a number of RS6's using BND, Motul, LiquiMoly, Pentosin, and Amsoil. I used Redline up to the late 90s' before going with Amsoil (Amsoil was available, and Redline was not, no other brands appealed, so tried it). It's visibly and audibly apparent not all oil is created equal, even just looking at it while gushing out. Have seen UOA's on some. OE spec oil does the engine no service as it's out of warranty. In short the oil is designed to protect the emission system first then the engine. Federal regs mandate an extended emission warranty, but nothing in regards to the engine itself- aside from the VAG warranty. THANKFULLY the secondary oil cooler keeps viscosity from thinning out too much and preserving whatever lowly shear spec the OE lubes can muster. I see very little bearing material come out in the oil, unlike nearly all other modern cars using spec oil. Have changed many a car over to a better spec and better oil besides RS6's. Always helps.

I use 502/505, which ironically is cheaper even though it's a better oil via the extra (relatively speaking) SAPS additives.

This shows both OE spec and Non:
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/?filters=78

Noisy startup:
I've noticed every car is a bit different. There are check valves in the head and oil pump to prevent oil back flow. It's apparent not all work so well at this age. After changing to the Amsoil oil filter noticed the engine quiet down much faster. It uses full synthetic media and is designed for extended drain intervals. P/N EA034. I have spoken with Amsoil engineers and the delta pressure is correct for this engine. (years ago had become concerned because they switched P/N's). Old oil, old oil filters cause more noise. Noise = damage.

Oil additives:
If they are needed then the oil is not adequate. Amsoil is adamant about not adding anything to their oil. It can alter the chemistry or cause other imbalances. "back in the day" I would also use products such as Marvel Mystery oil to my Ford LTD (351 Windsor), or snake oil like Slick 50. It seemed to work... Modern oil is far more sophisticated. The downside is older cars may need an additive due to the low SAPS ratings of any modern API SN/SM spec oil. Use period correct oil if possible (pre early 90's). Excluding that would consider additives (there are many niche oils available now). Usually diesel 15-40 or 20-50 has the best protection and additives for a readily available over the counter solution. There is also Amsoil 20-50 Z-Rod (domestic muscle car spec). Not exactly ideal for a 40 valve hydraulic head with turbos like ours of course- at least in winter.

Interval:
Oil change interval is a big factor for any car with hydraulic lifters. When they get noisy, it needs fresh oil. For normal combined driving, have noticed 3,500-5,000 miles is a good balance. Going past is not worth the risk (for me). Overall, conditions are key: climate, short drives, track days, road trips). Based on UOA's the PH becomes too acidic with most low TBN rated oil (nearly all modern OE spec oil, BND included). The Amsoil 5-40 Euro Classic is 10 TBN, very high by today's standards (max I've seen is 12-13). It helps prevent the extreme low PH which simply destroys seals, causes oil leaks, and attacks engine bearings. Not so great! Their diesel oil and other car grades like 10-40 SS are also viable (especially the 10-40). Diesel oil has a very high cP rating (HTHS=high temp high shear) to handle extreme torque loading in the cylinder (rings to wall). For example my 450hp diesel requires a cP of 3.7 and a 40wt grade (50wt at high temps). The Amsoil 15-40 and 20-50 is much higher and still beats the single 40 and 50 weight specs by some margin. It's a $40K engine, so oil is key. UOA is key as it's $400+ to change my own oil at my cost.

For those that don't drive much, change the oil every year. Do it prior to winter storage so there is clean oil as it sits. Never let old oil sit for prolong periods of time w/o use. When in doubt, change it.

Operation:
If the engine is turned on it should be driven for at least 20 minutes. Idling does not suffice; more harm than good. Moisture buildup occurs that will cause internal rusting. Modern oils are maxed out and cannot cope with anything other than typical operation (for awhile). If there is consistent loud rattling noises on startup, change your strategy and oil. The rattling is essentially "slapping". Expect damage in it's many forms. Example may be broken chain guides (there's one on the oil pump also) and/or excessive metal particulate contamination.

Our BCY engines are precious. Most of us push them hard and/or have them tuned. The amount of increased torque puts large shear stress on the oil (reducing viscosity= metal to metal contact). There is more blow by, more carbon and combustion byproducts getting into the oil, including gasoline. And if not tuned, it's an old engine that needs/deserves extra care. FWIW, a large portion of oil particulate debris contamination is via the air intake. Keep those filters clean. Every RS6 I've serviced had debris in the intake manifold, some with serious size pebbles (thank you VAG for the top feed plennum runner design). Don't ask me how they made it thru the turbo system to that point or what went further ....egads.

Oil is a hot topic for everyone. Truth is we just don't know much. I continue welcome ANY tech data on the oils people use here. Don't claim that Amsoil is the best, but I know it works and trust it. They are one of the few to publish tech specs done to established standards (ASTM/ISO/SAE, etc). I have worked on thousands of cars over the years of nearly all types. Seen both good and bad and the ugly. All but a few had problems that proper oil and care could not have fixed. It's truly all about the oil.

No rant intended but just a few things I know from experience that may help those that haven't dedicated their profession and personal passions towards these fickle things we call Cars. And the RS6.

[Aronis]

G2,

Very nice...

My head hurts, but excellent knowledge passed on.

Thank you very much,

Mike

[DHall1]

Gary

always good info. You must be typing on a keyboard because I could not put so much info on this phone poking away. Lol

the BND oil has a high tbn as well. As noted on my prev post, when my Daytona was the daily driver I ran up to 10k on my BND oil and Blackstone was amazed. The results were posted in the thread including the report.

[s8prtotype]

While we're on the subject replace your diff fluids with Brians as well (tacky). And if you're feeling frisky do the trans too, OEM fluid was meant for an A4 not an RS6

[nene]

Finally a member of the BND (http://bndautomotive.com) family. Brian was great to deal with and will continue to be a happy customer.

http://www.htms.org/img/072017/BND/BND_RS6_Engine_Oil.jpg

[DHall1]

Ahhh, the liquid gold.

Your RS6 will be very happy

[Aronis]

Nene,

Nice counter tops! I am guessing that is the counter top in your garage? LOL.


Mike

[G2]

Gary

always good info. You must be typing on a keyboard because I could not put so much info on this phone poking away. Lol

the BND oil has a high tbn as well. As noted on my prev post, when my Daytona was the daily driver I ran up to 10k on my BND oil and Blackstone was amazed. The results were posted in the thread including the report.

I try to hold back, but those fingers get going at times. Guess that high school typing class has earned it's keep over the years, ha.

I'd still like to know more about BND oil; specs mainly. I just see how it looks coming out of RS6's, and a couple UOA reports that were of concern. Easily offset by lower mileage, I'm sure. Ultimately it boils down to UOA's and a person' comfort level. I may have seen yours before.

With the new brake kit and 1700 spirited miles on some "flush out" LiquiMoly 5-40, felt it was time to get back to home base. Oil was moderately dark. May do a UOA for fun.

Just poured in 9 qts of 5-50 Amsoil SS (12.6 TBN) and their synthetic media oil filter. Nice quiet startups.

[G2]

Aronis, I've heard that before....the pain part. Glad to oblige!

[DHall1]

Test test.......

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1oA_vreAwq5MkY0Q1lybU1LMGs




https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1oA_vreAwq5MkY0Q1lybU1LMGs

[rah]

I have been using on all my cars (04 VW R32, 05 B6 S4 and now 03 RS6) the same oil and is within factory specs, which is Kendall GT-1 Full Synthetic 5w-40 Motor oil.

It meets or exceeds the requirements of: API Service SM, CF, ACEA A3/B3-04, A3/B4-04, BMW Longlife-04 Oil, Mercedes-Benz Sheet 229.51, Porsche A40 (excludes Cayenne V6 for extended drain and Cayenne diesel), and VW 505.01, 505.00, 502.00.

I have been pleased with it on the other 2 cars but do you guys recommend something else?

I am glad the noise went away for you, hopefully is no longer an issue, keep us updated if it comes back.