Blinking MIL on....running rough.....where to start with repair?

[Aronis]

Here is the VAG print out.

11 Faults Found:
17887 - Brake Boost Vacuum System
P1479 - 008 - Mechanical Failure
17863 - Exhaust Gas Temp Sensor 1 (G235)
P1455 - 008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
17865 - Exhaust Gas Temp Sensor 2 (G236)
P1457 - 001 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow - Intermittent
16840 - EVAP System
P0456 - 002 - Very Small Leak Detected - Intermittent
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - - MIL ON
16688 - Cylinder 4
P0304 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16686 - Cylinder 2
P0302 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P1340 - 001 - Incor. Correlation - Intermittent
16685 - Cylinder 1
P0301 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16687 - Cylinder 3
P0303 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
Readiness: 0000 0001


I cleared them and went for a drive, light came back on....Looks like Camshaft Position Sensor is dying and causing the rest? What do you think?

Thanks,


Mike

(make me an offer LOL)

[DHall1]

SJP

Call me in the morning

Replace the ARP while you have the intake off

suction jet pump
after run pump

[Aronis]

I replaced the suction jet pump when we had the engine out, but not the after run pump.

Why do you suspect the Suction Jet Pump with those codes?

Thank you,

Mike

[lswing]

Hope it's not a cam adjust pad. You had those done a few years back though? Look at blocks 70-74, how do your cam adjust degrees look at idle? I have a few threads on the numbers and details.

Edit, blocks 91-93. http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/32826-Crank-center-bolt?p=283409&highlight=#post283409

[Aronis]

Thanks Iswing!

I drove it around a bit today, running fine but the MIL is on steady. I was going to scan again tonight. I will log 70 - 74 and let you know.

The Cam adjusters were replaced at about 127k miles (13k ago). If those failed I'll scream!

I am hoping that it was just a loose connection,after all the wires were plugged back in. :)

Mike

[DHall1]

Well crap

the vac leak causes all those assorted symptoms.

Clear codes and monitor which code comes first

[Bigglezworth]

Easy to tell if you have a vacuum leak under the manifold by spraying some MAF sensor cleaner down under the manifold. RPM's increase? You have a leak.

[nubcake]

Did really noone notice that all those misfires are from just one (passenger side) bank?
I agree that it does look like cam tensioner. Or could be the CPS indeed.

[Aronis]

Easy to tell if you have a vacuum leak under the manifold by spraying some MAF sensor cleaner down under the manifold. RPM's increase? You have a leak.

That is very interesting! Is it dangerous??
So the cleaner gets sucked in and gets burned, increases RPMs! Sounds like an easy first test for a leak!

Mike

[Aronis]

Thank you for the input, you guys are great!

The knowledge on this site is amazing.

I'll check the codes tomorrow and then log 91-93 (saw the edit) and post my results.

Thank again.

Mike

[Aronis]

I rescanned.

17610

Brake Boost Vacuum System Mechanical Failure....The brakes feel fine, but perhaps this is the culprit? It is only effecting one bank (cylinder 1 to 4) Passenger side? Most misfires are in cylinder 1 and 2.

17613

What do you make of block 8?

17614

Ross Tech has this....

17887/ P1479/005241 - Brake Boost Vacuum System: Mechanical Failure

Possible Causes
Fuse(s) faulty
if the blade wheel (rotor) in the vacuum pump is stuck, most probably a fuse will burn
Hoses from/to Brake Boost Vacuum Pump faulty
Brake Boost Vacuum Pump faulty
the blade wheel (rotor) in the vacuum pump is stuck
Possible Solutions
Check / replace fuses
check if the blade wheel (rotor) of the vacuum pump is stuck, otherwise the fuse will burn again
Check Hoses from/to Brake Boost Vacuum Pump
Check Brake Boost Vacuum Pump
check if blade wheel (rotor) is stuck
Perform Output Test
Perform Short Trip in Basic Settings. Group 008 is commonly the self test for this system and may be activated Key On, Engine Off. If needed activate basic settings using [On/Off/Next] and pump the brake pedal.
Special Notes
When this fault is stored in conjunction with misfire and system lean fault codes check the PCV system and any other possible sources of engine mechanical vacuum leaks. Although PCV failure is most common on the 1.8T engines equipped with the auxiliary vacuum pump, any engine with low vacuum can cause that electric pump to run excessively - resulting in this fault code.



The phase adjustment numbers are High???

17615

Can the vacuum leak explain that?

From what I have researched today the cam chains may be off? Example diagram from Ross Tech for V6

17616

So?

1. Vacuum problem effecting only cylinder 1 and 2 (most misfires)? Unlikely.
2. cam position sensor? again, only effecting two of the four cylinders on that same cam shaft, unlikely
3. BAD coil packs? I still have all 8 originals as best I can tell? Were these supposed be replaced routinely? I will check my records again but I did not list them in my tracking spread sheet, possible but does not explain the huge variance in the Phase Adjustment numbers
4. Cam not aligned properly? Sounds possible but why is just cylinder 1 and 2 mostly misfiring?

Looks like more than one problem. Vacuum system leak and ?

Thanks for all the input.

Mike

[Aronis]

I did the "Short Trip test"

Engine off, block 8 under section 4 basic tests, heard clicking when the display said Pump On, clicked off, Clicked on, but did not hear any pump running. When I pump the brake pedal I can see the pressure number rise and fall as I pumped. Looks like the booster pump is is stuck/Dead.....

I could not yet find the location of it's fuse, working on that next. I think the click is the relay that turns it on so that is getting power at least.

Mike

[lswing]

Your bank 1 and bank 2 adjustment numbers are awfully high, not sure why. Here's a note on the numbers from another site, and ours side by side, you can see my adjustment at bank 1/2 is minimal, car runs like a charm. Makes me wonder if your bank 1 is off by a tooth?

Block 091 is bank 1 by itself.
Block 092 is Bank 2 by itself.
Block 093 shows how far from what is expected the cam is. In my case I had -3 and -4 in all conditions. This number did not change during any throttle inputs while driving.

17617

Edit; Did you take your screenshot with pedal depressed, or is your idle that messed up at 1600?

[Aronis]

Sorry, missed the image at idle, I have 91,92...

17618

17619

[Aronis]

I did the brake test again after reading in the Bently Manual a bit more.

Failed. LOL


17620

[nubcake]

93 looks out of whack.

[Aronis]

93 looks out of whack.

Exactly what I was thinking LOL

[SteveKen]

This all just happened all of a sudden and you didn't do anything prior to this?

I can't recall how hard it is to put the crank at TDC and see where the two diamond shaped ears are clocked.

You might have a bad tensioner guide or your timing belt pulley might have slipped on one of the cams.

[Bigglezworth]

Do not use any cam alignment diagrams other than those for an RS6 engine. I posted images of the proper alignment on another post in which one of the members lost their tensioner.

[Aronis]

This all just happened all of a sudden and you didn't do anything prior to this?

I can't recall how hard it is to put the crank at TDC and see where the two diamond shaped ears are clocked.

You might have a bad tensioner guide or your timing belt pulley might have slipped on one of the cams.

Yes, after my engine pull repair of everything experience, the car was fine, but I did a vag scan and saw this:



3 Faults Found:
17887 - Brake Boost Vacuum System
P1479 - 008 - Mechanical Failure
17863 - Exhaust Gas Temp Sensor 1 (G235)
P1455 - 008 - Implausible Signal
17865 - Exhaust Gas Temp Sensor 2 (G236)
P1457 - 001 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
Readiness: 0000 0001


I was not too concerned, so I cleared the codes figuring it was just loose wires or something. It was fine after. I did not rescan (should have) until I got the MIL on.

This is what I saw:

11 Faults Found:
17887 - Brake Boost Vacuum System
P1479 - 008 - Mechanical Failure
17863 - Exhaust Gas Temp Sensor 1 (G235)
P1455 - 008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
17865 - Exhaust Gas Temp Sensor 2 (G236)
P1457 - 001 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
16825 - EVAP Emission Control Sys
P0441 - 002 - Incorrect Flow - Intermittent
16840 - EVAP System
P0456 - 002 - Very Small Leak Detected - Intermittent
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - - MIL ON
16688 - Cylinder 4
P0304 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16686 - Cylinder 2
P0302 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P1340 - 001 - Incor. Correlation - Intermittent
16685 - Cylinder 1
P0301 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16687 - Cylinder 3
P0303 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
Readiness: 0000 0001

So SOMETHING changed.....

Mike

[SteveKen]

Check the engine harness grounds. There's single big one at the firewall where the harness and I think 2 other ones are attached.

I think there is another or two that ground at the head.

Still issues after that, I'd putt the valve covers and recheck the chain spacing and cam orientation.

[Aronis]

Check the engine harness grounds. There's single big one at the firewall where the harness and I think 2 other ones are attached.

I think there is another or two that ground at the head.

Still issues after that, I'd putt the valve covers and recheck the chain spacing and cam orientation.

I was speaking to my mechanic today and that is the first thing he said! ? ground issue. That would be fabulous. But I would like to understand how that would give the data I have seen with regard to two specific cylinders misfiring, the cam adjustment numbers so high, the failed pump, etc.....

Mike

[SteveKen]

I was speaking to my mechanic today and that is the first thing he said! ? ground issue. That would be fabulous. But I would like to understand how that would give the data I have seen with regard to two specific cylinders misfiring, the cam adjustment numbers so high, the failed pump, etc.....

Mike

I'm pretty sure the pump and the main engine harness grounds are both at the lug on the firewall.

[AndyRS6]

Yes, you can have misfire like that with bad cam alignment, that what I had when cam tensioner stop working.



Andriy

[Aronis]

Yes, you can have misfire like that with bad cam alignment, that what I had when cam tensioner stop working.



Andriy

Is the fact that cylinder 1 and 2 are the ones misfiring consistent with that?

Looks mal-aligned based on the cam adjust numbers. but I am just learning about those numbers.

But I know what to log after repairs from now on.....everything LOL..

Mike

[AndyRS6]

In my case was bank 2, cylinder 5 and 6 less in 7, sometimes in 8. My phase position bank 2 was -15.
I did a lot of research and phase position bank 1 and 2 should be in range +/-6 from 0 group 93, and adjustment bank 1 and 2 ( 0.0kw ) when off and ( 22.0kw ) when on.
I think in your case CCT's working, but phase position far from 0.
I think your problem with TB ( maybe Eccentric Idler shift or hydraulic tensioner).
When you did TB last time, you install whole kit?




Andriy

[Aronis]

In my case was bank 2, cylinder 5 and 6 less in 7, sometimes in 8. My phase position bank 2 was -15.
I did a lot of research and phase position bank 1 and 2 should be in range +/-6 from 0 group 93, and adjustment bank 1 and 2 ( 0.0kw ) when off and ( 22.0kw ) when on.
I think in your case CCT's working, but phase position far from 0.
I think your problem with TB ( maybe Eccentric Idler shift or hydraulic tensioner).
When you did TB last time, you install whole kit?

Andriy

My timing belt and all the parts were done at 127,000 miles, but when my engine was taken down to repair the oil leak, the timing was re done as part of re assembly. A new timing belt was used but the other parts were not changed. He inspected all those parts which only had 13k miles on them.

Unfortunately I think the above issues are a combination of a few things.

I just loosened the four ground wires on the drivers side firewall, sprayed the connectors with contact cleaner and re tightened it. I may redo that an actually clean each surface.

It will be going to the mechanic soon, just need to find the time and a ride home. LOL.

Mike

[SteveKen]

In my case was bank 2, cylinder 5 and 6 less in 7, sometimes in 8. My phase position bank 2 was -15.
I did a lot of research and phase position bank 1 and 2 should be in range +/-6 from 0 group 93, and adjustment bank 1 and 2 ( 0.0kw ) when off and ( 22.0kw ) when on.
I think in your case CCT's working, but phase position far from 0.
I think your problem with TB ( maybe Eccentric Idler shift or hydraulic tensioner).
When you did TB last time, you install whole kit?




Andriy

It's not difficult to get the timing off or not perfect when following the procedure. I think it has to do with the way the belt takes up slack before the sprockets are tightened.

It's a huge pain't but you have to do the procedure and then run the engine and check block 093 and then re-tweak the sprockets again based on the values. This is assuming that your cams are properly installed on the chains.

[AndyRS6]

It's not difficult to get the timing off or not perfect when following the procedure. I think it has to do with the way the belt takes up slack before the sprockets are tightened.

It's a huge pain't but you have to do the procedure and then run the engine and check block 093 and then re-tweak the sprockets again based on the values. This is assuming that your cams are properly installed on the chains.




My car is fixed, problem was CCT piston stock, misfire was strange, not same in all cylinders (most in 5, less in 6, some in 7, and few in 8) with different CCT no more misfire. Learn hard way with TB, re did few times.

That's what I got now

1762217623



Andriy

[SteveKen]

My car is fixed, problem was CCT piston stock, misfire was strange, not same in all cylinders (most in 5, less in 6, some in 7, and few in 8) with different CCT no more misfire. Learn hard way with TB, re did few times.

That's what I got now

1762217623



Andriy

great news.

when I replaced the entire tensioner it sounded horrible until I gave the throttle a good blip as there might have been some air in the oiling system or something was in need of getting unstuck.

[Aronis]

Andy RS6,

Which CCT did you use? EOM for $750 or the aftermarket for $210?


Thanks,

Mike

[AndyRS6]

OEM for $15. Pick from salvage yard from 2002 A6 4.2 with low mileage. I know part# same for C5 A6, A8, VW 4.2

Which one you use?



Andriy

[Aronis]

OEM for $15. Pick from salvage yard from 2002 A6 4.2 with low mileage. I know part# same for C5 A6, A8, VW 4.2

Which one you use?



Andriy

It was done at the shop when I had a new intercooler and timing belt service. It was never charged to my bill, but the mechanic who takes care of the car now was working at the dealer at that time. He is certain he changed them but never charged them out. When I had him do an oil service last year we found parts of the old one in the oil pain. He took the valve covers off and checked them, they were both like new.

If I replace them I will go aftermarket, they are $205 each and have 1 year warrantee. The EOM is 750 for one side and 650 for the other....too much....LOL
'
I plan on dropping the car off next Monday. If the whole thing looks pricey we are going to part the car out....LOL

Mike

[AndyRS6]

Mike, when you start your car in the morning do you hear rattle from engine for few seconds, before engine pull?




Andriy

[Aronis]

Mike, when you start your car in the morning do you hear rattle from engine for few seconds, before engine pull?




Andriy

No, it always sounded fine, I had an oil leak which was silent LOL.

The car now runs rough when I first start it but no mechanical rattle sounds.

I'll be bringing the car in Monday. So I'll have concrete info on the problem in about 6 months or so. :)

Mike

PS engine pull was over a 6 month period. LOL.....crying........

[Aronis]

I have been reading the Bently Manual...

I found this pearl.

"If readings do not match specifications, unscrew CMP sensor and check whether rotor ring has been correctly installed at camshaft (incorrect installation causes retainer tab to be squashed on tightening bolt). "

And the spec for the Cam Adjustment Range -6.0 to +6.0

I am going to pull the air box on Saturday morning and start looking for things I can fix....I'll check the ground to the coil pack wire, then swap the Coil and spark plugs and see if fault follows the parts. Etc....

I am reluctant to remove the Cam Position Sensors to check for the above issue because I don't think those were ever off....

basically I am hoping to find something that just got loose.....

This car is killing me....slowly.....

[Aronis]

Read this table as well.....love the first one.....D'ooh.....

Cylinder misfiring rate
Possible cause
Fault remedy

Greater than 0
Fuel level too low
- Check fuel level and fill tank if necessary


Spark plug faulty
Ignition coil/output stage faulty
- Check ignition coils with output stages Page 28-4


Injector faulty
- Check injectors Page 24-68


Fuel pressure too low
- Check fuel system pressure Page 24-61


Crankcase breather leaking
- Check crankcase breather hoses for firm fit and leaks

[Aronis]

The car is now in the shop, will update as I find out more info. He believes it is all electrical, and may be just time for new Coil Packs. They are $30.00 each, so not too bad. ECS has them on sale. LOL. At least that is NOT an RS6 specific part, appears to be same part use in about every Audi engine.

"New Ignition Coil for 1.8T Engines (APH AWD AWV AWW ATW ATC AMU) for 98-01 Beetle, 99-01 Golf, 99-01 Jetta, 98-01 Passat, 99-02 Audi A4, 99-02 Audi TT. Also fits V8 Engines (AWM BBD) for 98-04 Audi A6, 00-03 Audi A8/S8 and 03-04 Audi RS6 Quattro."


:)

Mike

[Aronis]

Coils are ok, and plugs....

Looks like a problem with Cylinder 1, as of yet unknown.

Reported that cylinder leak is "Good at only 9%."

Not sure what the Leak Spec is ;) I am a bit concerned! This could be then end...:)

17634

[DHall1]

That is a leak down value. You are good

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leak-down_tester


Coils are ok, and plugs....

Looks like a problem with Cylinder 1, as of yet unknown.

Reported that cylinder leak is "Good at only 9%."

Not sure what the Leak Spec is ;) I am a bit concerned! This could be then end...:)

17634

[SteveKen]

Read this table as well.....love the first one.....D'ooh.....

Cylinder misfiring rate
Possible cause
Fault remedy

Greater than 0
Fuel level too low
- Check fuel level and fill tank if necessary




I've seen this first hand.

It's usually an indication of fuel filter or pump(s) issues.

[DHall1]

Hang in there Mike

at least with the good leak down number your cylinder integrity is good.

I'm about to buy a Misano RS6 and or a Stage 3 Imola S4 avant. We always need that next project car.

[Aronis]

Thank you for the info on leak down. I did not take a moment to search myself since I was post call and needed A sleep Down test. LOL...

Mike

[AndyRS6]

I still think timing is your problem (phase position to far from 0 in oposit direction).




Andriy

[Aronis]

Update....

Vacuum pump for brakes tested out ok.

Smoke Test done, no leaks found.

The misfires are related to either the Cam tensioner or the Cam Chain.

He put the car in service position, checked the timing belt and all components, all is correct there, put back to gather did more testing.

The right side of the engine had +12 phase and the left side (driver's side) -7. The spec's I believe are -6 to +6, we discussed that briefly.

Next step, back to service position, and drop engine a few inches to allow access to that F-ing coolant pipe to allow cam the be services on passenger side.

We are replacing the cam chains (both sides) and most likely the cam tensioner guides. The Cam Tensioner's test out electronically and are actuating. When he stripped the engine down for repair of the oil leak, he checked the cam alignment and all the marks were properly aligned on both sides. So I am very curious to see what the actual problem is. He can hear some chain noise on the passenger side so I bet the cam tensioner guides are broken. I doubt the Chain would all of a sudden be stretched! There were no misfires for 140,000 miles on those parts. :) Who knows. I'll be it the cam tensioner, stupid plastic parts! LOL.

Mike

[lswing]

We are replacing the cam chains (both sides) and most likely the cam tensioner guides. The Cam Tensioner's test out electronically and are actuating. When he stripped the engine down for repair of the oil leak, he checked the cam alignment and all the marks were properly aligned on both sides. So I am very curious to see what the actual problem is. He can hear some chain noise on the passenger side so I bet the cam tensioner guides are broken. I doubt the Chain would all of a sudden be stretched! There were no misfires for 140,000 miles on those parts. :) Who knows. I'll be it the cam tensioner, stupid plastic parts! LOL.

Mike

I've thought about the quality of some of those aftermarket pads. $10 for a set from China, you never know if there's a flaw in the pour/mold or how good the resin is. Part of why I replaced the whole tensioner and guides with OEM as one complete unit. Didn't want to spend the $2k to get back in there and replace, mostly due to passenger side, again after a few years. Hope you find the fix!

[Aronis]

The cam tensioner was replaced with OEM Audi part a few years ago...they are $800 each.....the aftermarket ones are $200 or so..supposedly the same unit without the Audi logo. It's too bad the warrantee no such parts does not include the labor charges.

Mike

[SteveKen]

When he stripped the engine down for repair of the oil leak, he checked the cam alignment and all the marks were properly aligned on both sides.

This only means that you exhaust cams are in time. Also, did you get any word on how easily the cam lock bar installed onto the cams? If it doesn't go on with nearly any effort, then I suggest popping the sprockets and re-timing it.

I know it's a PITA, but sometimes getting the timing right is an iterative process. Those tensioner adjustment numbers in block 093 should be all zeros.

[Aronis]

yes, the block 93's were not zero. He is taking the valve covers off and changing timing chains and probably the cam tensioners. Trying to avoid that cost.

He did look at the aligning marks on both the intake and exhaust cam gears. If you take the valve cover off you can see them easily. So I would love to be there when the covers are taken off so I can see first hand where the markers are LOL.....

Mike

[Aronis]

How does that part look? D'ooh.....


17662

[AndyRS6]

Looks like CCT was original.





Andriy

[DHall1]

Those were never changed.

Doh

no no way could those have been inspected when you just had the major service done

[Dmb408]

For my benefit, lack of knowledge, that is a split down the middle (busted) "cam chain tensioner gasket"?

[lswing]

Those were never changed.

Doh

no no way could those have been inspected when you just had the major service done

I second this, that piece looks damn old. Who supposedly swapped out your cam adjusters last year? Maybe they were used or not OEM? Something seems amiss...

At least you found the issue. You can get the pads most anywhere, some sources seem closer to OEM than others.

[lswing]

For my benefit, lack of knowledge, that is a split down the middle (busted) "cam chain tensioner gasket"?

Cam tensioner pad...$30 as opposed to $800 for complete unit.

[Aronis]

I see all the comments and I agree.

I did not have a record of that part on my parts list in 2012. He is convinced they were new.

I had the car in for replacement of the oil pain seal (liquid seal not a gasket, who knew) and at that time we both were present when he took the oil pan off. There were pieces of plastic in the pan.
17663

He told me that the next day he inspected the CCT and said they looked new. I did not at that time quite understand what it took to actually inspect these things.

So now he said he looked at them again during my engine pull and they were new.

This is what I think really happened.

They WERE NOT REPLACED in 2012, thus not on the part list D'ooh. The parts in the pan were SOME PARTS of it, but the device had not failed yet. When he inspected them, he did not pull the valve cover on the passenger side since that required the engine to be dropped a bit and I know he did not do that back in 2012 (otherwise I would have had to get an alignment.) He may have peaked at the DRIVERS side CCT and made the conclusion that it was ok, and it may have been ok. I think a chunk broke off in such a way that a "eyeball" look at it could have missed the chunk missing if it was a clean brake from an end or something.

Now the parts have failed and that is why the passenger side is -12 on the phase and the drivers side is +7 on the phase because I suspect mechanically they are mirror imaged and the phase shift would be opposite?

So big shit I guess, I just was going to have him replace the CCT at the time of the pull but they are $700 each, and for that service it would have been about 12% more total. D'ooh.

The questions is:

17664

VS:

17665

Who has use the non brand name part???

Or should I just replace the guides (apparently this can be done? Part numbers)

Mike

[P1054]

As I recall, each bank of cams has one tensioner with two pads per tensioner (one on top and one on bottom). You can't see the bottom pad on EITHER side with just a quick glance, they're pretty well tucked in there. I believe both the top and bottom pads are the same. I had one of my upper pads fail and my car immediately sounded like an old diesel tractor (the steel chain was riding on the steel tensioner piston instead of the pad, which was in pieces in the low spot below the tensioner). When I pulled the valve cover off, it was VERY obvious the pad failed. BUT, had it been the lower pad instead of the upper pad that failed, it would have taken a close inspection to see it.

As for fixing your situation Mike, my suggestion would be replacing all four pads and leaving the tensioner assemblies. Obviously you'll want to inspect them for any damage caused by the pad falling apart (grooves worn by the chain, over-extended pistons, clogged inlet filters, etc), but in my case the tensioner assembly was still perfectly fine and worked great after I replaced the pads. (Pads = guides = the little plastic pieces that the chain actually contacts, and that seem to have a tendency toward falling apart)

Also, make sure the mechanic checks around under the valve cover and gets rid of any residual pieces of plastic. They probably wouldn't cause any major issues, but it's easy to do and keeps them out of anywhere they shouldn't be.

[P1054]

For anyone who hasn't seen them before, this is what new pads/shoes look like. (Note there are four, one top and one bottom on each bank).

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjQwWDY0MA==/z/uAAAAOSweW5VXoTH/$_57.JPG?set_id=880000500F

[P1054]

And for further reference, here is a complete tensioner showing both pads (this image is of a 1.8T tensioner, but the 4.2TT ones look nearly identical). The lower shoe in the photo is the one that is quite difficult to see when it's installed.

http://acimg.auctivacommerce.com/imgdata/0/2/7/2/4/2/webimg/4263735.jpg

[P1054]

One more thing I'll throw out there, just found this article: http://forums.quattroworld.com/a8/msgs/65935.phtml

It seems that the broken pad COULD be caused by a failing tensioner (lock pins sticking)? Article is about the D2 S8 engine, but I'm assuming they use the same tensioners.. Can anyone with ETKA confirm?

[DHall1]

I get it but really still this is BS

The engine was out and all this stuff was apart. No way these pads were inspected! Both valve covers should have come off to inspect esp the pass side!

So here we are. Doc Peiserg's car had engine out service last year at 125k and both pad sets were replaced and its been perfect to 150. The engine is perfect and sounds tight.

I would put pads on and let them eat labor.


I see all the comments and I agree.

I did not have a record of that part on my parts list in 2012. He is convinced they were new.

I had the car in for replacement of the oil pain seal (liquid seal not a gasket, who knew) and at that time we both were present when he took the oil pan off. There were pieces of plastic in the pan.
17663

He told me that the next day he inspected the CCT and said they looked new. I did not at that time quite understand what it took to actually inspect these things.

So now he said he looked at them again during my engine pull and they were new.

This is what I think really happened.

They WERE NOT REPLACED in 2012, thus not on the part list D'ooh. The parts in the pan were SOME PARTS of it, but the device had not failed yet. When he inspected them, he did not pull the valve cover on the passenger side since that required the engine to be dropped a bit and I know he did not do that back in 2012 (otherwise I would have had to get an alignment.) He may have peaked at the DRIVERS side CCT and made the conclusion that it was ok, and it may have been ok. I think a chunk broke off in such a way that a "eyeball" look at it could have missed the chunk missing if it was a clean brake from an end or something.

Now the parts have failed and that is why the passenger side is -12 on the phase and the drivers side is +7 on the phase because I suspect mechanically they are mirror imaged and the phase shift would be opposite?

So big shit I guess, I just was going to have him replace the CCT at the time of the pull but they are $700 each, and for that service it would have been about 12% more total. D'ooh.

The questions is:

17664

VS:

17665

Who has use the non brand name part???

Or should I just replace the guides (apparently this can be done? Part numbers)

Mike

[Aronis]

I greatly appreciate all the input.

What about the lesser expensive brand of CCT setup. I am concerned about the possibility that the tensioners themselves may be near failing and at this kind of milage and at the cost I think I should replace at least the Passenger Side one. I guess I can go with the Audi branded one for 700 but the other one is only 200 bucks. My understanding is that the same actual manufacturer makes both the branded one and the generic one.

Who would use OEM vs aftermarket (apparently made by the same company?)?

The drivers side can be replaced without too much trouble but he wants to replace the TIMING CHAINS on both sides. I don't quite understand that. How would one assess the Chains? They are $140 or so so not too expensive.

I am looking at :Valve Cover gasket set (third set in the past 4 years), new seals for the CCT, new chains, the guides or entire CCT assemblies.

The labor unknown, $100,000 or so I am sure.

Mike

(should have dumbed the car when it started leaking oil)

[P1054]

The chains ride on the tensioners. If you have a tensioner out, you'll have the chain out too. If the chain has been riding on metal for a while, I suppose it could be a good idea to replace them.

[DHall1]

Check genuine for a price on the pass side tensioner if you feel like changing that side.

I keep a 50k mile oem sitting on the shelf for a rainy day.

[Bigglezworth]

220K vs new....

17666

[DHall1]

Yep

this should have been a must do at your mileage.

Its more important than the bufkin pipe really.

[lswing]

I have my fully functioning 98k adjusters with new pads if needed. Although at 98k, I'd be tempted just to put in 0k ones. I searched for months for the closest to OEM pad, looking at mold marks and detail stamps that matched up. Will dig up link...

[AndyRS6]

Everything you need in this set http://www.blauparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GF21011-1G
Me personally, I would change just pads (already in set).
To change chain both cams need to be removed.

Your quote : Next step, back to service position, and drop engine a few inches to allow access to that F-ing coolant pipe to allow cam the be services on passenger side
Just curious why engine drop few inches? I did few times with out doing so.


Andriy

[Aronis]

Thanks,

P1054, thanks that makes sense

DHALL so that's a no go on the brand X (Bapmic)

Biggles: Great Photo! Picture worth a thousand words.

Iswing: If I swap the unit it will be with a new one

Andy: Your photo is very tiny LOL, How did you do it? Loosen the mounts to the coolant pipe ,or "Flex it?"

Mike

(pissed off.......should have known better and swapped both when the thing was out of the car)

[SteveKen]

You dodged a bullet there. My tensioner guide on my D2 S8 failed which broke the chain which broke the timing belt which bent a couple of valves (strangely) on only the opposite bank.

The only way you can inspect the underside guide is to remove the tensioner, and you can't remove the tensioner without removing the cams. It's a big job just to inspect them, so I'd consider the biting of the bullet and resign to have the guides replaced rather than just pay the labor to have them inspected since it's all apart and exposed.

With the cams out, the head needs to be cleaned of all the leftover bits of guide and you will need to pass a rod through the oil return holes in the head to be sure that no bits are stuck in these holes. Then, for peace of mind, you need to drop the oil pan again and get rid of anything that my have fallen in there.

Also, it's effortless to get leakdown numbers when the cams are removed and all the valves are closed, too.

[Aronis]

He confirmed the stamped part number on the CCT and the number is the newer number and not the original part. So I guess the mechanical/electric part of the CCT are ok to keep and just replace the guides and the chain....

Mike

[SteveKen]

The CCT's do go bad over time and are unable to maintain pressure when the oil pump is not running.

It can sound really bad when the car is first started until the oil pressure builds back up inside the unit.

If you search the quattroworld D2 forum, a guy cut one open.

I replaced the check valves under the valley pan in my block and replaced one of my tensioners with a lower priced one and my timing is now perfect.

However, I started it up last night after sitting for about a week and things sounded poopy for a second or two. Might be the entire enginre in general or from the tensioner that I did not replace.

I do suspect that this dieseling at startup can make the guides wear faster, though.

I'll be sure to run it every coupe of days instead of waiting a week from now on.

I guess what I'm getting at is that you should consider replacing the tensioners as well.

[AndyRS6]

17668
Mike show me which pipe on the way, I managed to remove egr. Sorry no more photos with me at work.
What do you mean CCT part # is newer?



Andriy

[Aronis]

AndyRS6,

That kit is perfect!! Thank you for the link. I was surprised they did not have the cam chains also, so I had to order from Pelican.
That kit is pretty complete.

He was able to get the valve cover off without dropping the engine so that is good.

I am going to trust his judgement on the rest of the CCT as it fully tested out electronically.

The only way to check those cam guides is to REMOVE THEM LOL. You can't see much of their surface in place.

Mike

[Aronis]

That PIPE LOL,

17672

17673

17674

17675

17676

17677

17678

17679

17680

[Aronis]

17681

The part number for the original equipment ends with an E or C, the replacement part P. The ones in the car are marked with the P.


Mike

[AndyRS6]

17681

The part number for the original equipment ends with an E or C, the replacement part P. The ones in the car are marked with the P.


Mike

Then how come your pad looks so bad after 20k miles, the one you took a picture of. What side is it, and top or bottom.


Andriy

[Bigglezworth]

I've replaced three sets of pads on three separate engines and in each instance, the top pads were worn much more than the bottom pads...

[Aronis]

Then how come your pad looks so bad after 20k miles, the one you took a picture of. What side is it, and top or bottom.


Andriy

I D O N ' T G E T E I T H E R !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The piece that came out was a bottom pad, the top two, in photo above appear intact end to end.

Mike

[DHall1]

At least the patient isn't on bypass during this process.

I don't think even Peiserg could keep her going this long

[Aronis]

17682 ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT PART NUMBER

17683

Confirmed.....they were NOT changed at 127,000.....


Mike

[AndyRS6]

You definitely need new chain, and CCT.


Andriy

[Aronis]

Went with Audi part, $712 each, picking them up Saturday....

Mike

Next problem, it gets parted out.....

[Aronis]

You definitely need new chain, and CCT.


Andriy


LOL, I know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BURN>>>>>> 1500 more.......plus labor.....god dam....burn.......

[DHall1]

A major blunder on the techs part when this engine was just out.

You even had the pieces in the oil pan. The pad was already coming apart

i can't believe they didn't inspect both sides. It's almost unbelievable





17682 ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT PART NUMBER

17683

Confirmed.....they were NOT changed at 127,000.....


Mike

[Aronis]

I have looked at the posts "What should I change when the engine is out."

The CCT must be changed at 100k period. This should be in the Audi manual.

It is the same setup in the V8's and V6's.

I am glad that photos are posted here. I wish I had seen one like it 6 months ago.

My understanding is that the BMW Double Vanos system uses METAL ON METAL gears. I am going to learn more since I am curious.

I hope to have all the parts in my mechanics hands on Monday, and hopefully the car will be back on the road on Friday.

I am selling it once it is running.

Mike

[ttboost]

I am selling it once it is running.

Mike


LOL..no one likes a quitter....oh wait....

[Bigglezworth]

A major blunder on the techs part when this engine was just out.

You even had the pieces in the oil pan. The pad was already coming apart

i can't believe they didn't inspect both sides. It's almost unbelievableI echo this 100%. It pains me to see a post like this.


LOL, I know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BURN>>>>>> 1500 more.......plus labor.....god dam....burn.......The amount of labour to perform this work when your tech was overhauling everything else was significantly less than what you are being faced with now. If I was placed in this position, I would be looking for goodwill on the delta between the two situations. It amounts to a a fair bit of time when you consider you need to put the car into service position, remove timing belt, and remove valve covers which were all performed priorhand as part of their initial service. As Dave states, this is a total miss on their end and some ownership on that would be the responsible thing to do.

[CBeau]

I'm getting ready to pull engine in mine foremost to replace blown Trans with very low mi. Tozo rebuild I got from forum member doing manual swap. Trans has been toast for half a yr. With car sitting and occasionally started and brought to op. Temps for good measure and replacement Trans been sitting many months too. So I've been collecting lists, parts for what all to do - I know engine has never been out - car has 95k mi.s and well maintained but slightly weeping valve covers etc. I def. Had CCT pads on the list but should I be contemplating the units themselves? I'm really not too keen on dumping 1.4k in unneeded parts OR causing probs that don't exist (I'm one of those guys who "preventatively" changed Trans fluid and filter only to have implosion 500 mi.s later but we'll never 100% know that cause and effect nexus) AND I'm not trying to end up hating this car like so many others have spent themselves into doing. It just one of many hobbyist collector type cars I have but it's a really cool unique and clean sedan that I really like. Any opinions to try and help save me from myself are greatly appreciated.

[DHall1]

#6 is sitting out in the back garage. We're moving in a couple of weeks and then I have plans for the ol Misano beast. Lol.

I just put 40 miles on #1 today and plan to drive it to work tomorrow. Puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. I pity the fool in a cls550 at the random stoplight. Hehe

I started #2 and ran it up to temp today as well. I can't wait to get moved and into my new man cave shop. You better watch out idjuits.







LOL..no one likes a quitter....oh wait....

[lswing]

I'm getting ready to pull engine in mine foremost to replace blown Trans with very low mi. Tozo rebuild I got from forum member doing manual swap. Trans has been toast for half a yr. With car sitting and occasionally started and brought to op. Temps for good measure and replacement Trans been sitting many months too. So I've been collecting lists, parts for what all to do - I know engine has never been out - car has 95k mi.s and well maintained but slightly weeping valve covers etc. I def. Had CCT pads on the list but should I be contemplating the units themselves? I'm really not too keen on dumping 1.4k in unneeded parts OR causing probs that don't exist (I'm one of those guys who "preventatively" changed Trans fluid and filter only to have implosion 500 mi.s later but we'll never 100% know that cause and effect nexus) AND I'm not trying to end up hating this car like so many others have spent themselves into doing. It just one of many hobbyist collector type cars I have but it's a really cool unique and clean sedan that I really like. Any opinions to try and help save me from myself are greatly appreciated.

Sounds like you are doing the labor right? If so, I'd just do the pads. The CCT's themselves can last 200k, I've heard of a few failing around 150k and it was the electronic solenoid.

I opted to switch out the complete units ($750 each) at 98k since a shop was doing the labor. At $100 an hour, 18 hours mixed with other things, I didn't want them going back in to fix the CCT's again/ever. It was service position, and they didn't know the car very well, so I'm sure you could do it in half the time with enough practice.

[lswing]

I have looked at the posts "What should I change when the engine is out."

The CCT must be changed at 100k period. This should be in the Audi manual.

I am selling it once it is running.

Mike

Too bad the CCT issue wasn't fixed earlier like you thought, or changed by your mechanic.

It's interesting, until mine failed at 98k last year, I hardly heard any chatter on here about changing the pads out, not a thing. I've had the engine out 4 times the last 5 years to change transmissions/steering rack, and would have certainly changed the pads at that point. At least we all know now!!!

You can't sell it, it's about to be completely fixed up, what could go wrong next? :mech:

[SteveKen]

If the valve cover gaskets were replaced, then it surely would have been noticed I hope.

[Aronis]

Change the pads, sure, you have to remove the thing to do that, (cam shafts at lease) and you'll get a good look at the lower surface. 1.4k is a pain in the ass but better than having it fail later. That part is on every V8 and V6 Audi makes. They should drop that price, if for no other reason but own loyalty. If it fails your cams fail and your valves are screwed.


The aftermarket part is only $200, but no one here was willing to chance it, me included. My understanding is some parts are listed as OE manufactured, and this one is not listed that way on any of the websites I went to. I find it STUPID IMPOSSIBLE that some other company tooled up to make an aftermarket part like this (low volume part in the aftermarket) to 'compete' with the OEM manufacture who is selling two for every Audi V8 built. It must be made by the same manufacturer and is probably just FINE for $200. Has same two year/24 k warrantee. LOL

Someone needs to bite the bullet and try the cheep one, I nominate Dhall since he has 5 hundred RS6's and can do the work himself. DO IT DDDDDDDDD

Mike

[DHall1]

No way Jose. Oem or nothing for me

i may never need to replace mine due to many factors including oil used and proper cool down every time I drive the cars.

[Aronis]

No way Jose. Oem or nothing for me

i may never need to replace mine due to many factors including oil used and proper cool down every time I drive the cars.

Hot Oil, High Speed, Metal on Plastic, that thing is DESIGNED to fail. You must at least change the plastic guide parts.

The kit mentioned above has all the parts needed for $150. Blauparts. guides and gaskets.

I changed the oil faithfully q5k (despite the 10 k recommendation) and I did not romp on the the car that often.

I agree with OEM, thus I spent the $1500 on the parts. :)

I just wish we had at least "e'skinned" the plastic parts when the car was all apart, that's a no brainer for $30 in parts (eBay has them listed for that). I would have been happy to pay the $1500 then to have the entire new part.

I am just lucky that the cam chain did not break! D'ooh.....

Mike

[lswing]

Yep, luckily no other damage was done...so no need to sell the car. Besides winter is here soon and you need a winter beater!

I can't believe my luck when mine failed. It was on a start after sitting in the garage all week. Started it up and it sounded like a damn rumbling semi truck, lights flashing on dash. Car drove flawless the week before, but I had been getting more of that "ticking" sound on startup, beware of that everyone.

[Aronis]

Winter Beater! LOL.......That is what I was hoping for when I put 12 grand in to it last winter. Car was in the shop from October to June. I figured I'd get a winter out of it but looks like I'll be putting in another $3000. and might have it back on the road by December. LOL.....

Once it is running I can sell it. If I do the winter beater thing and another fault comes up, I'll have a pile of junk that I can't sell and have to pay to have it towed away!

Those who have their own shop and can DIY on this car can drive it for a longer time, those of us dependent on a mechanic to keep it running are just SUCKERS.

I had the plan of never keeping a car more than 3 or 4 years after milking old cars through college and med school, but I did not keep to that plan with the RS6 and now I am paying the price.

Not keeping the A8 was probably the right decision as the new 4.0 L Turbo also has a plastic part for it's cam adjusters LOL. Different system as far as I can tell, but another car you don't want to keep past 100k. I would have had a 100,000 mile 8 total year if I bought it, but was still a risk.

I have a neighbor who has a 2010 or 11 A8L with NA V8, his car was at my mechanics shop for a few items. I had not been educated on the CCT issue until after that car was picked up. They have 120,000 miles on it. I would LOVE to see the condition of those adjusters! LOL I watched the owner drive off and she had no idea that their beloved maroon A8L is going to DIE a sudden death when one of those plastic parts go! BANG!

It's funny, look under your hood. Audi has the warning about using the correct oil or the engine can suddenly fail and cause an accident. Just what the hell happens when a timing chain brakes AUDI? What Flowers come out the exhaust!?!?!? Should be a warning label for the friggen cam adjusters. Plastic pieces of shit.

"Warning: if this car exceeds 100,000 miles, sudden engine failure is imminent and injury or death can occur, so change your CCTs"

"Achtung: Wenn dieses Auto beträgt über 100.000 Meilen, plötzlichen Motorschaden droht und Verletzungen oder zum Tod kommen kann."

I have my timing chains and the seal kit from Blauparts, and am picking up the tensioners from the dealer tomorrow. I'll drop off the parts on Monday, and wait.......a month or so to get it back on the road. Perhaps I can drive it back from the mechanic in a snow storm with the summer tires on it. That will be fun.

Mike

[DHall1]

I would never pay a 12000 dollar service ticket.

Car would have been parted at that point.

I have taken on Pieserg's car at 150k but he just serviced literally everything last year. I passed on the 13 A8 4.0tt for now...we shall see how that pans out

[Aronis]

New Parts....

17688

17687

17686

[lswing]

New Parts....

17688

17687

17686

You can't sell it now! These parts are worth half the value:) You should have put used crappy old parts on like a used car dealer would...

[Aronis]

Iswing,

You are mean!

Those 'aftermarket' ones MUST be made by the same shop that makes the OEM. I can't believe someone would tool up for a limited part like that!

(maybe those are OEM, maybe they are knock offs)

Mike

[AndyRS6]

Did you buy OEM or aftermarket?


Andriy

[AndyRS6]

I thought that real oem would have black or dark brown pads and black electrical selinoid.

Andriy

[Aronis]

AndyRS6,

They are OEM.

Did not want to chance the knock off's since no one else here had tried them, call me chicken.

As far as I could tell from various sellers websites, the OEM and aftermarket look the same.

17689

Knockoff

17691

Audi OEM

17690

From ECS site, not the markings on the part
Mike

[nubcake]

I thought that real oem would have black or dark brown pads and black electrical selinoid.

Andriy

They get darker over time from exposure to heat and oil.

[Aronis]

They get darker over time from exposure to heat and oil.

The same heat and oil that kills them!

Mike

[Aronis]

Update:

Left Bank (driver's side) which was not showing any misfires had the timing chain off by one link! 14 instead of 15! It must have moved with the worn down CCT.

Right Bank which had all the misfires was correct at 16 links (Correct spacing is 15 on left bank, 16 on right bank, don't ask me why!)

Passenger Side (right Bank)
17697

Driver's Side (left bank)
17698

I am curious if I'll notice any improve performance with the timing correct!

Mike

[Bigglezworth]

Yes different for each side. NOT both 15!! BCY engine. Left side (Drivers) is 15 rollers. Right side (Passenger) is 16 rollers.

[Aronis]

Update: Engine is running.....no faults.....re assembly in process.

Mike

[LuRS6]

Any Updates on your car Adonis? I'm excited to learn, as I just purchased a Rs6 with 116k miles and I'm currently removing the valve covers and replacing the CCTs. When I purchased the Rs6 it had a sticker in the engine bay saying the timing belt was replaced at 111k so I had confidence that it was done right. Car drive ok, I guess. It's my first time driving a rs6. Funny when I picked it up it had a check engine light on, the dealership reset it and it stayed off for the 400mile drive home. Wish I would have saved the codes. But fast forward to today and I was checking the timing on the cams with the cam lock bar tool and it WOULD NOT FIT. So I must deal with timing before I even get to the CCT change out.