Fastguy
August 28th, 2016, 15:58
I'll try and summarize this as quickly and concisely as possible. My hope is that someone has had this issue with the stock starter. I have a manual transmission with a Tilton super starter. I installed the starter in the beginning and it worked perfectly for at least 100 cycles. It started acting up and I removed it and replaced the solenoid with a Tilton recommended HD solenoid. A couple months and approximately 100 perfect start cycles later, it's starting to act up again. The links below show first, the original starter on the bench when I was able to get it to act up so you can see visually what I believe to be happening with the starter in the car. The second link is the same issue reappearing just a few days ago with the HD solenoid installed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwdYgntTQ5w - if you scroll to around 40 seconds is where it starts to act up. Keep in mind this is a few months ago using the solenoid I tore apart in the pictures below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s1LROUMNO0 - You can't hear it in the clip here, but it is clicking down at the starter like it's doing what you can observe on the bench test video. I put it in gear, let the car roll ever so slightly, pop the clutch pedal, and for some reason (SOMETIMES) this may help. I believe it to be completely coincidental but I won't rule anything out at this point.
As for testing I have done:
You can see the bench test above,
I have a new battery and I've tried two different batteries
The connections and the solenoid and starter are spotless and tight
I went from the standard solenoid to the "new and improved" HD solenoid (and I thought for the past couple months it was solved)
I contacted and spoke with a Tilton senior engineer. He said it could be the copper contacts inside the solenoid. His recommendation was to disassemble original solenoid and check the contacts inside. If they had carbon build up, then the issue is low power to the solenoid. I did this, it looked near perfect.
17597
I tested resistance on the coil and even though the engineer was uncertain of the specs, it tested very low at 0.77 ohms. Until I have another to compare it to, I'd assume this is a good reading because of the megohm test that followed.
17598
Megaohm test was perfect. My meter goes up to 10 Gigaohms which essentially means there is no current passing through the coil windings to the case of the solenoid.
17599
All these electrical tests were conducted with the solenoid cold and off the car. It's a slight possibility the readings may change with the coil at engine operating temp although it made do difference on the cold, original coil on the bench test.
So I really see no issue with the coil itself. The plunger inside seems to be free and able to move fine. I greased it well on reassembly. I'm left with only a couple possible scenarios but I'd like to run it past everyone in case this has been observed with the stock starter?
It may be heat related. The solenoid is extremely close to the exhaust manifold. I thought maybe it was reaching very high temps but in effort to duplicate any sort of high temp situation I put the test solenoid in my powder coating oven at 500 degrees F. I quickly found that, on the car, it is exposed to no where near this temp. It melted all the winding insulation and dripped out of the bottom of the coil case (testing with this solenoid is concluded:) If the heat is enough might the plunger be restricted from the expansion of the hole it resides in?
Is there something else electrically happening in the car? Is there a problem with a component in the car that causes a high resistance situation and lowers the voltage to the solenoid coil? It could be anything the coil wire passes through like a start solenoid, clutch switch, the conductor to the solenoid, the connector at the firewall leading to the solenoid. I can't find a good diagram that shows the path of the current all the way through the controls and wiring to the solenoid terminal. If this is the case, then why would the issue appear to be progressive and why would I be able to replicate it on the bench?
The only thing I plan to do now is to insulated the solenoid to help decrease the heat it is exposed to, and run a larger conductor to it as far back as I can follow the circuit. But is sure would be nice to have a definite answer to this.
My car is near perfect now. I am just about to get the dyno done and my build post complete. This is one of the last annoyances that I MUST figure out. It will always start eventually but it can be very annoying and it doesn't happen in the beginning of a fresh installation. It also will roll start just fine every time this has happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwdYgntTQ5w - if you scroll to around 40 seconds is where it starts to act up. Keep in mind this is a few months ago using the solenoid I tore apart in the pictures below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s1LROUMNO0 - You can't hear it in the clip here, but it is clicking down at the starter like it's doing what you can observe on the bench test video. I put it in gear, let the car roll ever so slightly, pop the clutch pedal, and for some reason (SOMETIMES) this may help. I believe it to be completely coincidental but I won't rule anything out at this point.
As for testing I have done:
You can see the bench test above,
I have a new battery and I've tried two different batteries
The connections and the solenoid and starter are spotless and tight
I went from the standard solenoid to the "new and improved" HD solenoid (and I thought for the past couple months it was solved)
I contacted and spoke with a Tilton senior engineer. He said it could be the copper contacts inside the solenoid. His recommendation was to disassemble original solenoid and check the contacts inside. If they had carbon build up, then the issue is low power to the solenoid. I did this, it looked near perfect.
17597
I tested resistance on the coil and even though the engineer was uncertain of the specs, it tested very low at 0.77 ohms. Until I have another to compare it to, I'd assume this is a good reading because of the megohm test that followed.
17598
Megaohm test was perfect. My meter goes up to 10 Gigaohms which essentially means there is no current passing through the coil windings to the case of the solenoid.
17599
All these electrical tests were conducted with the solenoid cold and off the car. It's a slight possibility the readings may change with the coil at engine operating temp although it made do difference on the cold, original coil on the bench test.
So I really see no issue with the coil itself. The plunger inside seems to be free and able to move fine. I greased it well on reassembly. I'm left with only a couple possible scenarios but I'd like to run it past everyone in case this has been observed with the stock starter?
It may be heat related. The solenoid is extremely close to the exhaust manifold. I thought maybe it was reaching very high temps but in effort to duplicate any sort of high temp situation I put the test solenoid in my powder coating oven at 500 degrees F. I quickly found that, on the car, it is exposed to no where near this temp. It melted all the winding insulation and dripped out of the bottom of the coil case (testing with this solenoid is concluded:) If the heat is enough might the plunger be restricted from the expansion of the hole it resides in?
Is there something else electrically happening in the car? Is there a problem with a component in the car that causes a high resistance situation and lowers the voltage to the solenoid coil? It could be anything the coil wire passes through like a start solenoid, clutch switch, the conductor to the solenoid, the connector at the firewall leading to the solenoid. I can't find a good diagram that shows the path of the current all the way through the controls and wiring to the solenoid terminal. If this is the case, then why would the issue appear to be progressive and why would I be able to replicate it on the bench?
The only thing I plan to do now is to insulated the solenoid to help decrease the heat it is exposed to, and run a larger conductor to it as far back as I can follow the circuit. But is sure would be nice to have a definite answer to this.
My car is near perfect now. I am just about to get the dyno done and my build post complete. This is one of the last annoyances that I MUST figure out. It will always start eventually but it can be very annoying and it doesn't happen in the beginning of a fresh installation. It also will roll start just fine every time this has happened.