Anemic power [Archive] - RS6.com | International Community

RS Sick

September 13th, 2015, 21:04

Guess it's time to formally introduce myself after scouring these forums for months now. Little background, bought the car end of may with 83k for $17k; runs great but has never had full "power". Previous owner had a APR EMCS installed in '04 but it was non-functional, sent to APR and they reflashed for $149 with warranty transfer. Verified slow originally by running a 14.2 @ 102 at local drapstrip on 91 oct. tune. I spent a couple months shooting in the dark before finally getting a vagcom (thanks DHall1 for constantly reiterating importance)- also had to get a windows laptop.

Before vagcom I replaced:
all plugs and coils (due to cel random misfire)
N80 (cel)
diverter valves 710n
coolant temp sensor (erratic, either cold or straight up)
swapped N75 from wifes A6 2.7t (no change, swapped back)
JB weld stock ICs

Since vagcom I replaced:
intercoolers for wagner full kit w/silicon hoses
t-bolt clamps (thought I had a boost leak since boosted slowly tapered from 2000 MB to 1650 by redline, seems common though due to TC size)

Back out to the strip today and 14.1 @ 101, 2.1 60ft. Here's the log, open to any feedback as I'm at my wits end. My last theory is the TCU may have lost it's tune as well and there's torque intervention. Timing seems a little erratic below.

<tbody>

Engine Speed
Mass Air Flow
Throttle Valve Angle
Ignition

Lambda Control
Lambda Control
Lambda Control
Lambda Control
Engine Speed
Engine Load
Boost Pressure
Boost Pressure

TIME
(G28)
(G70 + G246)
Timing Angle
TIME
Bank 1 (actual)
Bank 1 (specified)
Bank 2 (actual)
Bank 2 (specified)
TIME
(G28)

(specified)
(actual)

Marker
STAMP
/min
g/s
%
°BTDC
STAMP
V
V
V
V
STAMP
/min
%
mbar
mbar

0.45
2800
42.92
13.3
36
0.1
0.72
0.58
0.285
0.62
0.27
2760
34.6
910
980

0.96
2840
66.67
17.3
34.5
0.62
0.215
0.64
0.24
0.125
0.79
2800
36.8
910
970

1.46
2960
127.86
46.7
30
1.13
0.21
0.62
0.55
0.11
1.3
2920
68.4
1190
1040

1.98
3120
154.14
100
21
1.63
0.19
0.315
0.665
0.64
1.81
3040
101.5
1330
1260

2.49
3320
181.75
100
17.3
2.15
0.11
0.245
0.74
0.7
2.32
3280
114.3
1410
1400

3.01
3560
198.42
100
18
2.67
0.685
0.71
0.685
0.7
2.84
3480
121.1
1450
1450

3.52
3800
221.36
100
17.3
3.18
0.73
0.765
0.805
0.79
3.35
3720
124.1
1520
1440

4.04
4040
298.86
100
12.8
3.7
0.725
0.72
0.79
0.79
3.87
3960
136.8
2010
1590

4.56
4320
335.08
100
7.5
4.21
0.065
0.06
0.695
0.725
4.38
4240
166.9
2000
1970

5.05
4560
358.03
100
3
4.72
0.81
0.835
0.845
0.835
4.89
4480
172.2
1980
2000

5.57
4840
364.08
100
4.5
5.22
0.835
0.855
0.85
0.85
5.4
4720
172.9
1960
1950

6.05
5080
364.08
100
6.8
5.74
0.85
0.86
0.855
0.855
5.89
5000
169.2
1880
1880

6.56
5280
364.08
100
7.5
6.23
0.845
0.86
0.86
0.855
6.4
5200
165.4
1870
1840

7.06
5520
364.08
100
9.8
6.73
0.84
0.86
0.86
0.86
6.9
5440
160.9
1870
1810

7.57
5720
364.08
100
9
7.23
0.83
0.855
0.85
0.855
7.4
5640
155.6
1890
1770

8.09
5920
364.08
100
15.8
7.75
0.83
0.86
0.855
0.855
7.92
5840
151.1
1920
1770

8.59
6120
364.08
100
12
8.26
0.83
0.855
0.855
0.86
8.42
6080
145.9
1950
1760

</tbody><colgroup><col span="16"></colgroup>

RS Sick

September 13th, 2015, 21:23

RS Sick

September 13th, 2015, 21:26

RS Sick

September 13th, 2015, 21:27

That last log was MAF g/s. There was a 13% difference between banks 1 & 2, since remedied with a couple wraps of electrical tape.

makaveli42

September 13th, 2015, 21:52

Idk how to read the logs but I ran a 14.3 when I first bought my car and did like you, started replacing stuff and sealing ICs and new hoses ect..

it ended up being a crappy tune...sent mine to Rich @ Viper to confirm and he said the prev tune was pathetic. Went to the track in 95 degree heat and ran a 12.8 (with a crappy 2.xx 60' ) after the new tune. just my two pennies... Hope you fix it and run a lot faster!

RS Sick

September 13th, 2015, 22:20

Thanks makaveli42, I hope it's just an easy fix. I heard viper was good after reading some of v8weights old posts.

But I also thought APR was one of the better ones and thought I lucked out by purchasing the car w/tune already. BTW i switched between the 91 map and stock map when i was at the strip today and the 2 runs were nearly identical down to E.T. and MPH. The second log up there (turbo mode) is a 2nd gear pull for those who can decipher.

DHall1

September 13th, 2015, 22:42

I hate to say this but the APR can be weak. I have been back and forth with the APR staff. Worthless

There re are better choices out there

ill be home later and post some details

what were outside temps?

run the 93oct tune

do a sneaky reset

RS Sick

September 13th, 2015, 22:46

Outside temps were 60s & 70s.
There's no 93 oct here in Idaho, only crappy 91 w/10 % ethanol
I'm going to do a sneaky reset and go log 3rd in turbo this time.

DHall1

September 13th, 2015, 22:50

Try the 93

you need more timing advance

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 00:32

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 00:34

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 00:34

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 00:35

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 00:37

Alright, did the sneaky reset and went for a drive; no difference. 1st partial log was with the 91 tune, hit kickdown a couple times so not too much good data below 5000 rpm. Last 3 were after switching to the 93 tune, timing didn't seem any better.

hahnmgh63

September 14th, 2015, 01:31

Max Boost is getting barely above 14psi with average timing advance. You might do better with some Octane boost but without logging the Knock sensors you may be getting all that the tune is ready to give. A little more of each, Boost & Timing will make your car a rocket, it is too bad you only have 91. Next door in WA we only get 92 but I run that with Octane Booster and Aces IV. I try to get no Gasohol when I can. www.pure-gas.org 92 octane 100% gasoline makes a difference over 92% Octane and up to 10% Gasohol (usually about 7~8% in WA state).

DHall1

September 14th, 2015, 01:39

You could tweek more fuel and timing with unitronic software but your pretty much stuck

its a lame tune.

Eurocharge stage2
viper
10sS4

are the good ones. Mind you the APR is safe and the car drives well but it's not the fastest

lswing

September 14th, 2015, 02:10

How do you know it's slow besides the times? Been in another one?

But yes, weak timing, and needs more fuel. Boost seems good, should be a rocket, but that decreased timing due to a conservative tune or lack of fuel could do it.

Bad fuel + weather above 80 = slow

lswing

September 14th, 2015, 02:12

You have O2 codes by chance? Some random anemic readings in your Lambda values.

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 02:18

For the most part I'm trying to use the trap speed as a measurement of true power; haven't rode in another RS6 but #s don't lie- at least a second off where it "should" be IMO. Today was hovering around 70 degrees F when I was at the track. Seems like the consensus is the tune is weak. Couple questions for you guys:

Is it normal for the boost to taper off above 5,300 RPM? I'm holding about 1750 whereas the stock ICs could only hold 1650 at redline - maybe the hoses and clamps helped.
Do the AFRs look decent?
If the tune sucks, any idea why I ran a nearly identical time after programming back to stock between runs? both were 14.1 within 1/2 MPH of each other

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 02:20

No O2 codes, when i did the overall scan it just had my CEL for the evap purge valve and the random misfire stored. No CEL in over 500 miles

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 02:21

and the best news of all, or so I thought, was the transmission had 0 faults found

DHall1

September 14th, 2015, 02:45

Its not lean but could use more fuel.

And more timing for sure.

Buy some Aces from BND.

You could tweek more fuel and timing with unitronic software but your pretty much stuck

its a lame tune.

Eurocharge stage2
viper
10sS4

are the good ones. Mind you the APR is safe and the car drives well but it's not the fastest

Corbett

September 14th, 2015, 04:58

For the most part I'm trying to use the trap speed as a measurement of true power; haven't rode in another RS6 but #s don't lie- at least a second off where it "should" be IMO. Today was hovering around 70 degrees F when I was at the track. Seems like the consensus is the tune is weak. Couple questions for you guys:

Is it normal for the boost to taper off above 5,300 RPM? I'm holding about 1750 whereas the stock ICs could only hold 1650 at redline - maybe the hoses and clamps helped.
Do the AFRs look decent?
If the tune sucks, any idea why I ran a nearly identical time after programming back to stock between runs? both were 14.1 within 1/2 MPH of each other

You are right about trap speeds being the true indicator of power. Mine trapped 122mph 2 years ago.

i would say it's hard to tell but start with the simple stuff. Do a boost leak check. JBweld on intercoolers is no beuno.

if no codes I'd probably suggest contacting 10 second Marc. Jason at AMD has a pretty quick tune as well

Gentleman

September 14th, 2015, 05:38

Details on sneaky reset?
searching this sight doesn't reveal a procedure?

DHall1

September 14th, 2015, 13:35

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/25736-My-New-Viper-Tuned-Logs?highlight=apr+tune

Blah blah.....

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 13:37

Corbett, I was leary about JB on intercoolers at first, but seems factory ICs have a near 100% fail rate and some have had success sealing them up. For me it's moot since I replaced with the Wagner's along with silicon hoses and t-bolts. I doubt there's any leaks due to boost requested/actual being within tolerance from my understanding.

My research on sneaky reset found- car off, key in ignition to on position, gas petal to floor 5 seconds, key to off position, release gas petal, wait seven minutes.

Looks like I'll get a hold of Viper (Rich i think?) or 10sS4. Did anybody ever see data logs on 10sS4 tune? I've seen that tune is fast but I know the logs were elusive

DHall1

September 14th, 2015, 13:39

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/31788-RS6-Cold-Air-Intake-Options

L
Details on sneaky reset?
searching this sight doesn't reveal a procedure?

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 13:43

DHall1- thanks for that link to the Viper tune log. Holy crap, so much timing! Also answers my question about boost taper- Kyle's car seemed to hold to about 1750 MB by redline.

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 13:45

So is it fair to say this is a software issue not hardware?

Should i run a log on knock sensors before proceeding with better tune?

car runs great, smooth, no CELs just feels like slightly quicker version of wifes C5 A6.

DHall1

September 14th, 2015, 15:30

Yes yes yes

you can check knock log but your fine.

i run my apr ECU in the hot summer months for safety. Other ecu in the 8 months of good weather in AZ.

You Need to get that dang apr EMCS out of the ecu and a chip back in.

So is it fair to say this is a software issue not hardware?

Should i run a log on knock sensors before proceeding with better tune?

car runs great, smooth, no CELs just feels like slightly quicker version of wifes C5 A6.

lswing

September 14th, 2015, 16:07

just feels like slightly quicker version of wifes C5 A6.

One of the saddest statements I've ever heard about the RS6...

Boost taper is normal, falls off around 4500 almost any tune. ECU locked in safety or small turbos just spinning out and getting hot. I messed with my tune a bunch and it always tapered there, but the HP on the Dyno graph takes over at that point up to redline.

Could be even when you switch 91 to 93 tunes it just raises the boost. My Revo would do that until I forced it to take 25% more fuel:) Of course decent fuel and cooler temps allow the extra timing.

My water methanol kit helps keep the power and timing when it's hot out. Suggest looking into that.

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 16:39

Re: "slightly quicker than wife's A6" comparison is considering acceleration only; it is sad. Great breaks and working DRC + PSS make RS6 stop/handle night & day though.

Thanks for the input guys, if it just needs a better tune I'm game.

I went to viper website but seems like it's experiencing issues..... could someone confirm?

DHall1

September 14th, 2015, 16:49

Go with 10sec/Marc

im sure he can change out that EMCS

or or buy a stock ecu and have it sent to him

alrightroad has a stock ecu to sell ya

fukinavit

September 14th, 2015, 16:53

Re: "slightly quicker than wife's A6" comparison is considering acceleration only; it is sad. Great breaks and working DRC + PSS make RS6 stop/handle night & day though.

Thanks for the input guys, if it just needs a better tune I'm game.

I went to viper website but seems like it's experiencing issues..... could someone confirm?

10secs4 tune, really good bang for the buck, one of the quickest tunes out there. I'm really pleased with it. unfortunately no logs but I just went on word or mouth as his turn around was quick.

lswing

September 14th, 2015, 17:26

<tbody>
8.03
4720
351.97
97.6
-6
7.95
0.75
0.795
0.8
0.795
7.98
4760
141.4
1930
1860

8.14
4680
352.36
98
0
8.08
0.77
0.785
0.82
0.81
8.11
4640
147.4
2040
1940

8.24
4800
352.08
99.2
0
8.17
0.75
0.775
0.81
0.805
8.2
4720
152.6
2030
1980

8.36
4840
363.39
99.6
-1.5
8.28
0.78
0.79
0.815
0.805
8.31
4840
157.1
2000
1990

8.46
4920
364.08
100
-6.8
8.39
0.8
0.81
0.835
0.835
8.42
4880
158.6
1980
1990

8.58
5000
364.08
100
-6
8.5
0.82
0.825
0.85
0.84
8.53
4960
158.6
1960
1990

8.7
5040
364.08
100
-0.8
8.61
0.83
0.845
0.84
0.845
8.65
5040
157.9
1940
1960

8.81
5120
364.08
100
-6.8
8.73
0.83
0.855
0.85
0.835
8.78
5120
155.6
1940
1950

8.94
5240
364.08
100
0.8
8.86
0.82
0.84
0.84
0.835
8.9
5200
152.6
1940
1910

9.06
5320
364.08
100
-6
8.98
0.835
0.845
0.825
0.83
9.03
5280
158.6
1930
1870

9.22
5360
364.08
100
3.8
9.11
0.85
0.865
0.855
0.855
9.17
5400
156.4
1920
1870

9.34
5440
364.08
100
1.5
9.26
0.845
0.86
0.855
0.855
9.31
5440
155.6
1920
1860

9.48
5520
364.08
100
-4.5
9.39
0.85
0.865
0.86
0.855
9.44
5480
154.9
1910
1830

9.63
5600
364.08
100
3.8
9.53
0.85
0.865
0.855
0.86
9.58
5560
150.4
1920
1820

9.75
5720
364.08
100
4.5
9.67
0.84
0.86
0.845
0.85
9.71
5640
147.4
1940
1810

9.86
5760
364.08
100
3
9.78
0.86
0.875
0.85
0.85
9.83
5720
146.6
1940
1800

9.98
5840
364.08
100
0
9.9
0.84
0.86
0.85
0.845
9.94
5800
144.4
1960
1780

10.08
5920
364.08
100
10.5
10.01
0.835
0.86
0.845
0.845
10.05
5880
144.4
1960
1760

10.2
6000
364.08
100
9
10.12
0.84
0.86
0.85
0.855
10.16
5960
139.1
1970
1780

10.33
6040
364.08
100
10.5
10.23
0.835
0.86
0.845
0.845
10.28
6000
140.6
1980
1740

10.43
6080
364.08
100
6.8
10.36
0.835
0.86
0.845
0.855
10.39
6080
139.8
1970
1720

10.54
6200
364.08
100
10.5
10.47
0.84
0.86
0.845
0.855
10.51
6160
136.8
1960
1750

10.66
6240
364.08
100
13.5
10.58
0.83
0.86
0.85
0.85
10.62
6240
138.3
1960
1720

10.77
6320
364.08
99.6
12
10.7
0.83
0.86
0.85
0.86
10.73
6280
135.3
1960
1710

</tbody>

That is some of the ugliest pulled timing I've seen in a log. I would wonder if you're getting a knock each time the timing hits negative.

Can't remember, but does the ECU sense lack of fuel or things getting hot (guess not from EGT though from what people say) and yank the timing?

Either way you need some cooler air and more fuel as you should never get a reading this bad. I would occasionally hit negative timing on my old tune and could feel the bumps along with way as it pulled timing then came back, then again...

RS Sick

September 14th, 2015, 18:52

lswing, based on the 2 1/2 second total time stamp (and if memory serves me right) that log was a first to second gear pull. From what i've noticed the timing on my tune will hit negative timing between shift points.

If you look at the last 3 part log i posted yesterday, it's mostly positive timing, with a slight -.8 and -1.5 hiccup around 4400 RPMs.

MaxRS6

September 14th, 2015, 19:54

The APR tune works in Crazy and has proven reliable over a few miles. I haven't done 1/4 miles times in years. It would normally pull low 4's 0-60- and it hung well enuff out on TWS...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xkTm_ZG-Gp8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

DHall1

September 14th, 2015, 21:23

its in the apr tune. It sucks

he has Wagners and 60 degree temps

That is some of the ugliest pulled timing I've seen in a log. I would wonder if you're getting a knock each time the timing hits negative.

Can't remember, but does the ECU sense lack of fuel or things getting hot (guess not from EGT though from what people say) and yank the timing?

Either way you need some cooler air and more fuel as you should never get a reading this bad. I would occasionally hit negative timing on my old tune and could feel the bumps along with way as it pulled timing then came back, then again...

DHall1

September 14th, 2015, 21:26

You sir have an early tune with more boost.

Thats ts the only thing I can figure. Apr will not give me that tune.

The later stuff is under nanny control. Low boost

The APR tune works in Crazy and has proven reliable over a few miles. I haven't done 1/4 miles times in years. It would normally pull low 4's 0-60- and it hung well enuff out on TWS...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xkTm_ZG-Gp8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

lswing

September 14th, 2015, 21:48

If your engine is reducing the ignition advance (pulling timing), you will be losing power. Too much advance is destructive to the engine (detonation). Just like Golidlocks... it has to be just right. Our engines are equipped with "knock sensors" that can detect detonation, and the ecu can take steps (reducing boost or pulling timing) to save the engine from damage. Running too low an octane fuel will activate the knock sensors and cause the ecu to take whatever steps are programmed. Our cars are designed for a minimum of 93 or 94 octane... more if they are modified. Here in California, the best you can normally get is 91. Bleech. There is a station here that sells 100 octane unleaded. Yummy.

Question; if our timing is being pulled yet there are no knocks occurring, anyone know what sensor(s) or parameters are telling the ECU to yank that timing back? AIT would be one, but we have under 80 degree air in this case, so rule that out. Boost levels seem good, so unmetered air or escaping air seem to be ruled out. If the EGT sensors do not affect the tune/ECU as people say, how does the ECU know that it's not getting enough fuel or burning too hot? I'm going to just answer myself here, it's the Lambda/O2 sensors (first set after turbos) that are running lower/leaner and reporting back to the ECU, pulling the timing.

lswing

September 14th, 2015, 21:50

The APR tune works in Crazy and has proven reliable over a few miles. I haven't done 1/4 miles times in years. It would normally pull low 4's 0-60- and it hung well enuff out on TWS...

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xkTm_ZG-Gp8" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

What brought you out of retirement? :hey: