Next project starting sooner than I thought.

[JSRS6]

So I was driving down the highway a couple weeks ago and my car died. Thought it was the accessory belt, since it had happened before. So I replace said belt, charge the battery, and still nothing. So I get it towed to the Indy shop, thinking it's maybe electrical. One hour of labor later and I get the call. TIMING BELT. Fuck. So now it's going in the garage and I will start disassembly and see what is going on inside.

[Bigglezworth]

So I was driving down the highway a couple weeks ago and my car died. Thought it was the accessory belt, since it had happened before. So I replace said belt, charge the battery, and still nothing. So I get it towed to the Indy shop, thinking it's maybe electrical. One hour of labor later and I get the call. TIMING BELT. Fuck. So now it's going in the garage and I will start disassembly and see what is going on inside.....and just how exactly did the Indy confirm it was the timing belt??? Not visible and if you 'lost' a timing belt you could have catastrophic consequences with these tight tolerance engines. Did he perform a compression test? This isn't a VAG check matter that I know of. What does a VAG scan tell you?

[JSRS6]

Said they pulled back one of the covers enough to see inside. I'll start doing my own "investigation" once I get it back home.

[Bigglezworth]

Said they pulled back one of the covers enough to see inside. I'll start doing my own "investigation" once I get it back home.Hogwash. There is no way they pulled back the dust covers unless they first removed the Y-pipe. You can't remove the Y-pipe unless you have the front clip in service position. I call foul.

[JSRS6]

That's the way I remember it. We shall see. I'll update here. Worst case scenario I go with an s8 block with rs6 bits, o1e w/tdi 6th. Those headers that one guy is making for like 400, with some hybrid turbos. Hmmmm...

[RSoverAll]

Just out of curiosity, OEM belt? Gates?

[JSRS6]

Oem belt.

[hahnmgh63]

I'm personally running the Gates Racing (Blue) belt in my RS as well as my girlfriends A8 ('05 and same belt). But I will also be the first to admin that it is probably over doing it. It has been very rare instances that the belt has failed and much more common that a roller has failed (bearing loose or frozen) although there have also been instances (RS6 as well as other Audi's) of studs breaking. When I do my timing belts (all cars), I replace all studs & bolts. It is a little extra cost but it is also extra insurance just like using the Gates racing belt.

[JSRS6]

That will be included in this project. Thanks Mark.

[ben916]

Hogwash. I call foul.

I agree.
I can't imagine that a TB failure would be graceful as in just shutting down.
There would have to be catastrophic slapping of valves and a host of other metal on metal contact...

[JSRS6]

I agree Ben. I did lose power, but it wasn't crazy. Kinda felt like I ran out of gas and battery power at the same time.

[MaxRS6]

Yeah- I agree with I think you would have heard a lot of clanging upon catastrophic failure. Here is hoping the best it is not da engine.

No one should be cranking on that thing until you sure the belt is on obviously.

Edit: I think he ran it out of gas...;0

[ben916]

Joshua, what are the symptoms?
Does it turn over? not to say that you SHOULD do this
Does the fuel pump prime/whine?
Do the headlights flick down then up upon turning of key from OFF to ACC?

Inspection covers should be relatively easy to remove, not to say that I have ever had to remove them.
There are so many sensors on these cars that it could be one or more.

Would it be worth it to have an Audi dealer plug in the giant Gameboy and scan?

[Bigglezworth]

Inspection covers should be relatively easy to removeNot without removing the Y-pipe no.

[JSRS6]

IIRC, I was able to take one of them off by unclipping it and sliding it out. It's been awhile and it may have been on the b5 S4.

[JSRS6]

I know that it turns over, and the fuel pump pumps from when I tried to start it after replacing the accessory belt. I have perfected replacing the belt without removing anything on the car aside from the belly pan.

[JSRS6]

Yeah- I agree with I think you would have heard a lot of clanging upon catastrophic failure. Here is hoping the best it is not da engine.

No one should be cranking on that thing until you sure the belt is on obviously.

Edit: I think he ran it out of gas...;0

haha Max. No, it still has a half a tank.

[RSoverAll]

Any update yet?

[hahnmgh63]

I think we'll all be waiting in anticipation on this one. Hoping for the best.

[lswing]

Those small rollers get fµcky. Not sure if mine were replaced when TB was done by previous owner, but if so they were getting loose 20k later...

Best of luck with repairs, hope it's not too much!

[JSRS6]

I'm getting it towed back to my place tomorrow morning and it will go in the garage and I'll start getting into it tomorrow.

[scottmandu]

I'm getting it towed back to my place tomorrow morning and it will go in the garage and I'll start getting into it tomorrow.

If it was a clean break then your probably in luck and just bent a few valves. If the belt stripped teeth chances are good the engine is toast.

[mik15]

i don't think it was the TB, if you gradually felt losing the power it must be something else, did you do a scan? My second RS6 had its first TB replacement at 60k and then the second one at cca 140k and it didn't look too bad, it was indeed loose and would've probably jumped a few teeth soon, but no signs of dangerous cracks...

[JSRS6]

She is in my garage. Had her towed this morning and cleaned up the garage. I'll get into her after lunch. Fingers crossed.

[hahnmgh63]

As far as the smaller rollers, the RS6 has two on top whereas the 40v A8/S8 4.2 only has one on the left side??? Not sure why the RS6 got the second one, they both use the same belt and most of the roller/tensioner parts are the same. Did a Timing belt job on my girlfriends A8 less than a year ago, OEM parts. The single roller was noisy from the beginning and I let it go thinking it might quiet down, the kit did come with two so I decided I would check it and replace it with the second roller, found out it was almost frozen, well it chewed up the belt a bit. I replaced the roller with the second one but I may be doing the belt job again soon. Tozo, if your listening, can the A8 timing belt job be done without pulling the front end if I'm not doing the waterpump again? It looks a little tight but I think I can do it.

[DHall1]

I always fear those top rollers. Nasty little buggers do alot of spinning for such a small bearing. I have always ordered the Audi part for that reason as well

[wes]

best of luck to you.

[hahnmgh63]

Ok, were on pins & needles here. Get that animal torn open?????

[JSRS6]

Sorry Mark. I haven't had a chance to get into the car yet. Will start this weekend. Hopefully today.

[ben916]

Sorry Mark. I haven't had a chance to get into the car yet. Will start this weekend. Hopefully today.

what about those crank position sensors?

[JSRS6]

I haven't had a chance to do anything but put it in the garage.

[lswing]

What's the word?

[ttboost]

My guess is crank sensor...but hoping for the best..
Good Luck Josh...

[JSRS6]

Thanks guys. I am finally getting into her this week. It's been hectic with me getting out of the Navy and my girl getting orders to Souda Bay, Crete. So we have been preparing for that. Her A4 is staying here and the beast is getting shipped and overhauled while overseas. But it will at least be running again soon. I miss her, lol.

[Chung]

I agree Ben. I did lose power, but it wasn't crazy. Kinda felt like I ran out of gas and battery power at the same time.
Probably not the same but it reminds me of the symptoms when my fuel filter was clogged.

[hahnmgh63]

Souda Bay, don't know if I would want to be stationed there but Super great place for a TDY. Good food, wine, water, sun,.....

[JSRS6]

It was the TB. It was a clean break and everything spins freely. I don't have a timing belt tool or pin. Was wondering if anybody would let me borrow theirs?

[JSRS6]

As soon as I get the cams off and the heads off, I'll know if there was any damage.

[Bigglezworth]

Yuckeroo.

[scottmandu]

My S6 had a clean break way back when. 12 valves needed straightening.

[hahnmgh63]

I've got both tools but I am up on Wa state. The Pin would be cheap to ship but the tool would cost a bit. Sorry to hear the news.

[ttboost]

Yeah...that's not good...bummer...

[lswing]

It was the TB. It was a clean break and everything spins freely. I don't have a timing belt tool or pin. Was wondering if anybody would let me borrow theirs?

Bummer. Were you higher up in miles on the belt? Brand? Seems rare for these belts to break, maybe a defect in the belt. There has been some chatter of people running 10-20k miles over the recommended 35k mile interval...I won't be trying that.

[Bigglezworth]

It was the TB. It was a clean break and everything spins freely. I don't have a timing belt tool or pin. Was wondering if anybody would let me borrow theirs?
$40-50 online plus shipping.

[Turbowned]

Oof, that blows. Hope it doesn't need too much valve work :cry:

[hahnmgh63]

It must have been a defect in the belt. As I've said before Audi was running a 70~75K change interval on the 4.2 40V A8/S8's with the exact same belt and never a problem. I would expect the S8 would have slightly higher valve lift which would put more strain on the belt than ours?

[JSRS6]

I went ahead and made one.i didn't want to wait. Pretty damn easy.
$40-50 online plus shipping.

[JSRS6]

Will know in a week or so.
Oof, that blows. Hope it doesn't need too much valve work :cry:

[JSRS6]

Well it won't be an issue this time. Going to use gates belt.
It must have been a defect in the belt. As I've said before Audi was running a 70~75K change interval on the 4.2 40V A8/S8's with the exact same belt and never a problem. I would expect the S8 would have slightly higher valve lift which would put more strain on the belt than ours?

[JSRS6]

Things are coming along. I didn't have a lot of the tools anymore to do what i want to do with the car, so we went to Harbor Freight today and got a cherry picker, engine stand, new low pro jack, 21gal compressor, stool, air tools, hose, impact wrench and new torque wrench. So i should have the engine/trans assembly out this week. Ordering parts this week as well. Im pretty excited.

[JSRS6]

Garage is finally ready to go. Should start removal tomorrow.

[JSRS6]

Removal and teardown complete. Have the block and trans separated and block on engine stand. heads are off. valves look fine. both rear pistons got hit lightly though. gonna smooth those out and clean everything else up. got a full set of gaskets for basically everything. sending off TC to Ace and new CHRA's soon as well. looking into re-coring the intercoolers myself, or cleaning these up and re-welding them. will post pics later.

[Bigglezworth]

If the "pistons got hit", it is a high probability that the value has been tweaked. Please please please tell me you're going to take the heads to a qualified engine machine shop and have them confirm that the values all seat correctly. You will hate yourself if you do all this work and find out you have some leak down. Valves can "look fine", yet be a few thousands out of plumb and you will quickly find that cylinder with lower compression as a result.

[JSRS6]

Sorry I didn't elaborate man. I will be doing a valve check next time I get out there.

[lswing]

Crap, that's some serious work. Glad you can dig in there on your own, saving about $5k in labor I would say.

[JSRS6]

Yeah, Lou. It sure does help. Gotta figure something else out for my valve covers though. Powdercoater here won't do magnesium alloy.

[MaxRS6]

Good luck with the continued progress!- I look forward to reading about you having it fired back up and ripping up smiles. Snap some pics and feed us bears when you get the chance.

[JSRS6]

A couple pics from yesterday, and my son being the usual ladies man at hooters.

[Bigglezworth]

Both of the Hooters bars here close up shop and left town this past Spring.

[ttboost]

Dude's got game...

[MaxRS6]

Wowza- Nice pics...00

[JSRS6]

I've had everything pulled apart for over a week, need to get back out there and make some more progress. So I guess I will do the valve covers myself. Also, little man is gonna be a big brother next year. So realistically, I need to have the beast back up by February. So I have time to, well, take my time with the project.

[Gentleman]

Clogged fuel line? Sounds like loss of fuel to the engine. Either that or somehow lost spark in all cylinders at once?

[JSRS6]

The belt snapped fairly clean and so far there is very minimal damage. I will know more once I do a seal test on the valves.

[JSRS6]

Finally ordering valves and chra's, and sending off the tc tomorrow. Will be getting everything back together over the holidays.

[JSRS6]

Engine will be prepped for black ceramic paint today, and doing the valve covers in red. I need a pn lookup, if anyone can assist. The plastic roller by itself, lower passenger side. The only part number I could find was 077 903 341. Can anyone confirm?

[Aronis]

JSRS6, how many hours did it take you to remove the engine (just to that point)? My mechanic is picking at my car in between other jobs, so I have no idea how he is tracking the hours he will be charging me. Perhaps going to the dealership would have been more wise..!

[lswing]

Sounds like it will be super nice, glad to hear it's moving along!

First time ever working on an RS6 my mechanic took around 30 hours to remove/install. I think he averaged around 20 hours the next few times...

[JSRS6]

Mike,
i wish I logged the hours i worked on removing the cosworth. I would assume your mechanic is logging hours just like one would at work. I worked on it a little here and there when I had time.


JSRS6, how many hours did it take you to remove the engine (just to that point)? My mechanic is picking at my car in between other jobs, so I have no idea how he is tracking the hours he will be charging me. Perhaps going to the dealership would have been more wise..!

[ttboost]

If it helps, I've had my RS6 engine out a couple of times. Using a lift, dropping the engine and gearbox together, out the bottom, should take about 6 hours or so. This is by myself. with help, should be able to knock a little time off. Now I work with a purpose, (read: fast), so maybe 7-8 hours is reasonable, especially if said mechanic is working by the hour. Should take the same sticking it back in, again, faster and easier with more eyes and hands...Downtime is another story...

[Bigglezworth]

If it helps, I've had my RS6 engine out a couple of times. Using a lift, dropping the engine and gearbox together, out the bottom, should take about 6 hours or so. This is by myself. with help, should be able to knock a little time off. Now I work with a purpose, (read: fast), so maybe 7-8 hours is reasonable, especially if said mechanic is working by the hour. Should take the same sticking it back in, again, faster and easier with more eyes and hands...Downtime is another story...

THIS.....

Have had the powerplant out of all three of the beasts I've had here at least once, and twice on my daily. You get more refined with it as you perform the work more often, but suffice to say there becomes a threshold that you simply can't be any more efficient performing the work solo. An expeirienced second set of hands will drop the time a nominal 1.5-2 hours possibly, so a good baseline as Mike outlines is a minimum 5-6 hours for 2 and 7-8 for one. There is really no difference taking out to putting back in. Total for Audi experienced tech I do believe quotes in at 14-16hrs for R&R alone. Add time for whatever other work is being performed on top of that.

[MaxRS6]

Good luck and I hope you have it terrorizing the streets soon!

OT- Threadjack- I had my hands inside the heart of a few 996 motors a couple weeks ago. This was a class put on by Jake Raby and Flat Six Innovations. 4 days of man cave fun!

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz195/MaxRS6/201512%20Raby%20Engine%20Rebuild%20Class/20151209_104901_zpscjwuwymf.jpg

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz195/MaxRS6/201512%20Raby%20Engine%20Rebuild%20Class/20151209_132956_zpsycxvwvmr.jpg

[DHall1]

Holy cow

That looks like fun

[MaxRS6]

^It was a blast- A nice summary is posted here:

http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/908880-review-of-flat6-innovation-jake-raby-m96-97-engine-rebuild-class-102-a.html

[hahnmgh63]

I read that thread on Rennlist a while back. Pretty cool. I've thought about doing one or Jakes classes while I'm still stateside. That guy knows Porsches like nobody else and not just 996's.