Del Stator RS6 Build Thread V 2.0

[Del Stator]

I am going to start a second thread as the next phase of development is basically all new build.

I am shooting for something north of 700hp. I am not number hunting. I want a car that is streetable. One I can take a 500 mile trip in and feel confident. One I can drive down to the grocery store without too much fuss. One I can go have a track day in with confidence.

The car will be registered in Arkansas so it will have zero emissions testing done.

Here is a link to my first attempt to get what I wanted.

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/26499-2003-RS6-Build-Sheet-with-Dyno-Results?highlight=

It was a very nice and potent outcome. But the issue is that I should of installed a 6sp from the start. As nice as the 517 shifted and felt it still felt like an automatic dinosaur trying to do the work of a real transmission... ;)

To recap, I am a rotary guy. I know my way around RX7s and am new to Audi and V8TT....well not as new but still feel lost in lots of this stuff and not really knowing this car very much. I really haven't had my hands on it much of the time I have owned it. My other current ongoing build is a 1989 RX7 GTUs with a supercharged 4 rotor going in. That has been going for 6 years... Definitely where my home is...

This is what I got on the previous dyno runs with the 517 transmission and EPL tune.

417whp / 571ftlbs

So this is my list of parts on the first build up.

Here are the specs:

- 2003 Avus Silver/Ebony/Carbon Inter. 59k miles

- Build Shop: Griffin Motorwerke Berkeley California http://www.g-werke.com/

- European Performance Lab new upgraded RS6 Turbos; Custom compressor wheel and housing, Tweeked exhaust wheel, Friction work done to the shaft, modified wastegates http://www.eplabs.net/

- European Performance Lab modified fuel injectors

- Tuned by Tony of EPL remotely

- Dyno runs done in Santa Rosa, California at Fine Line Imports. Miles of Fine Line was running the dyno and loaded files, did runs and sent logs back to Tony. Subaru tuning is Fine Line's specialty. http://www.finelineimports.net/

- Wagner Upgraded Intercoolers

- Okada Plasma Direct Coil On Plug http://www.okadaprojects.com/usa/products_direct.htm

- Fluid Motor Union Intake……..and no, I don't have before and after dyno figures.http://www.fluidmotorunion.com/performance

- Full Milltek Exhaust non resonated

- STE PPD information display http://www.getste.com/

- 517 Built Transmission and TC http://517trans.com/

- MTM TCU

- Aquamist 100% Methanol Injection

- Aces IV gas treatment and Aces IV-A Methanol treatment This was mainly done to help over come in any possible way the garbage gasoline we have in California. 91 octane crap.

- Apikol Engine, Transmission and Differential mounts. Both blue and red…don't remember what is where.

- Sterns Upper and Lower Control Arms

- Bilstein PSS9 Coilovers

- Loba built AP Racing 390mm brake rotors

- Loba modified C6 RS6 (Euro) brake calipers. These calipers were on some Lambos.. I think they started using Brembo calipers later. Then they discontinued the kit and only sell C5 RS6 rotors.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4406915&type=1 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.496887700352372.105525.156342304406915&type=1)

- Phaeton brake duct mod

- Sportec Lower Air Vent Modification http://motorsports.chrismore.com/201...ification.html (http://motorsports.chrismore.com/2010/12/sportec-lower-air-vent-modification.html)

- Hotchkis Sway Bars

- Hartmann HRS4-252-GS 20"x9" I wanted to get Forgelines for the car but just don't want to spend the money now…..maybe never.

- Vredestein Vorti 265/30/20 tires I got a killer deal so I thought I would try them. Some really love these tires.

- Passport 9500ci Radar Detection System

- Pioneer/JL Audio audio system We also used Dynomat inside the trunk and rear quarters.

- Stephencl Carbon Fibre Air Splitter



I have sold my 517 transmission. I have the complete RS6 engine with turbos and EPL tuned ecu for sale as a unit for now. It is obviously tuned with 100% methanol. I am not sure if I am going to separate anything off of the engine. I have someone who has shown interest in the entire package. I will see if anything actually transpires with that lead.

I am having a S8 block built so that no adapter plate is needed. I will be able to use a twin disc clutch with this set up.

I will get more information about my current engine build once I get my engine, head and valve information straight in my own head.

[RS8]

It looks like you bought everything you could find your car, nice! :0:


Basically you can use S8 engine block and heads, but need RS6 crankshaft, oil pump, oil pan and intake manifold.
You can also use the RS6 pistons in your S8 engine block, they will hold for 7-1000hp, If you do not have scratches in it so it must be drilled.


Basically you need forged conrods and better valves,
and then new RS6 piston rings, new bearings and gaskets in the S8 engine, then you will be able to have up to 1000hp.


Once you have access to your S8 engine block, so can I show what differentiates in between them = what you have to do to put on the RS6 parts on it.

[s8prtotype]

Sub'd, the more pictures the better :)

Is this S8 Block from a US spec'd D2 car?

[Del Stator]

R8, I knew some things had to change over but didn't know the extent or all of the reasons. I am now going to get more involved in my own build. :jlol:

I got the block from Scotty of Advanced Automotion. He is doing the install and building the engine and transmission. He buys lots of European spec vehicles and has them shipped to US. I don't actually know at this moment if it is US or Euro.

I have been sort of hands off in this cars progress through Griffin and now AA. I was hoping to just spend some money and get a badass car. That sounds OK but it doesn't really work. My RX7 has been about the journey. The RS6 was more about the end product but I see that is a recipe for dissatisfaction. So I am going to turn this car project into a worthwhile journey.

As you see, I have bought a truck load of parts and they worked very well together but moving up into the HP territory I am looking for is going to take more than bolting in a catalog of parts.

I have almost not pictures of the process when Griffin Motorewerke of Berkeley Ca did his work. This is all I can find on my computer.

I didn't really want these wheels but had to have something immediately. Nice but a little to common..

[Del Stator]

New items for install and modification. This stuff is mostly all been bought. It is just a matter of getting everything together and installed.

JE Pistons .50 overbore at 85mm 8.5 CR
Pauter rifle drilled rods
S8 Block being bored and sleeved
Fully built heads from Lee Schwartz of Flow Tech
Ferrea valves
Upgraded valve springs
Might upgrade cam shafts.. Up to Lee
Looking to increase red line up around 8k maybe
Custom headers using stock attachment points
Custom fuel injectors
Surge Tank with Bosch 044
Intank Bosch 044
Most likely TTE (The Turbo Engineers) custom turbos Simon Sharp
Wavetracs front and rear
Built 01E with custom gear set
Thinking Custom Clutch Master Twin Disc 850

Remove Auxiliary Radiators
Remove SAI
Move battery and methanol tank into spare wheel area
Heated Recaro Sportster CS
Might get Forgeline wheels but I don't know....enough is enough...maybe
Move Carbon Canister under fender well as in Euro car
Remove all emission related items
MTM hood vents
Modify CAI somehow.

Any interesting ideas I am open to.

[s8prtotype]

Wonder why they're overbore/sleeving the block? Seems the stock block/piston size is good to 800-1k HP that I've seen in the other epic build thread on here. Seems that money could have been put towards a carbon clutch setup, as the other guy also ran outta clutch with the 850... maybe put that money into custom grind cams...

You don't need a carbon canister if you remove all the emissions on these things right? I'd add some -8an fittings and a decent catch can to the mix, the fluid motor union car did this because of boost issues.

Maybe a wire tuck :)

[Del Stator]

Wire tuck will be done. Nothing too extensive.

I have heard people having fuel smell issues when removing a carbon canister. I don't know the details...

I have lower compression pistons going in 8.5 CR. If I am building the block up I wanted to have a new block basically. I didn't want to reuse the same holes. That was my decision. Plus it really isn't very much money compared to other aspects of the build.

I am not sure about using a carbon clutch. I hear they work well but have a very short life. I haven't delved into that much yet. Just conversation with Clutch Masters. I haven't bought a clutch yet.

All of the fuel lines with be upgraded. That sort of stuff is just understood. I haven't typed out every single aspect of the project. I actually hate doing build threads.

Lee Schwartz has a buddy that makes custom cnc'd cams for all sorts of racing teams. He works with Audi rally and other racing teams and has a lot of information on Audi cam profiles so Lee will make a call on that.

I won't be not doing something because I did something else. I have pretty much committed to this ridiculous build and will do what it take to get what it needs to be right.

[hahnmgh63]

Yea, the Carbon Canister doesn't really add much weight and it doesn't rob Horsepower like the SAI, and Cats. With the Canister intact you can still run the sealed gas cap, otherwise you will have to go to a vented gas cap/fuel system.

[Del Stator]

Yea, the Carbon Canister doesn't really add much weight and it doesn't rob Horsepower like the SAI, and Cats. With the Canister intact you can still run the sealed gas cap, otherwise you will have to go to a vented gas cap/fuel system.

Would that possibly led to a code being thrown?

I had a ongoing code issue.....don't remember exactly what the number was but about evap system. I was told to install new fuel cap which didn't fix the code. It would continue to come back after it was cleared.

But just wondering if removing the CC would possibly create such an issue?

Personally I like the idea of having it but tucked under the front fender liner as Euro cars.

[Del Stator]

I won't be getting one of these but it sure is cool.

This is Terry Griffin of Griffin Motorwerke with an 11 pound battery! It is a Braille Battery with 1340 cold crank amps and retails for $1680.00.

[RS8]

You will need two 044 in the surge tank for the HP you want.

And then you should have AN8 fuel lines and new bigger fuel rails.

But 044 is very noisy, I had one in a surge tank in my trunk, but because of the noise I have changed mine now for a Walbro 450 pump that flows much more than 044.

Here you have test with the smaller Walbro 400 E85.
(And yes the E85 pump works in both gasoline and ethanol)

1577415773

[RS8]

New items for install and modification. This stuff is mostly all been bought. It is just a matter of getting everything together and installed.


Thinking Custom Clutch Master Twin Disc 850



This clutch is useless what I know after reading, it can not handle your power.
Better to buy a real quality clutch from Sachs
They have two and three discs that can handle well over 1000 hp.

I'm using Sachs single disc clutch and I have a lot more torque than what it is specified to hold for, but I still don't have any problem even that I running hard on the race track with the my car.
= Sachs clutch can hold for lot more than what they are specified for.

[Corbett]

Seems like overkill for 700hp but best of luck

[Bigglezworth]

Crap load of work to extract an extra 100-150 hp from many already pushing mid to high 500's with just a tune... Remember the 800hp engine in the Gumpert Apollo is the RS6 motor.... I have never been able to locate exact details on what the differences between the base RS6 and the Gumpert are, but safe to assume it's cams, turbos, headers, fuel management, air box, and a tune. I doubt there are any other different internals.

[s8prtotype]

Looks like the manifold/turbo setup on the Apollo haha

[s8prtotype]

Looks to have 2 inch thick intake spacers too.

[Bigglezworth]

Looks to have 2 inch thick intake spacers too.Don't believe so. Here's a better photo. Dry sump, short headers, larger turbos. Same intake, similar throttle body.

15780

[s8prtotype]

Look at where the intake bolts down in the picture i posted.

[alrightroad]

MTM built up the Gumpert motor from what I recall. Read on the history of Gumpert and you will see the two proprietors are buds.

[Del Stator]

Seems like overkill for 700hp but best of luck

I stated north of 700hp.

I love overkill!!

This isn't about building a car in some efficient bang for the buck manner. I love dreaming, planning, implementing, redesigning, driving, staring at hot rods. This is nothing but for the fun of it... I am not in competition with anybody.

If this was about efficiency in performance I should of spent the money on an older GT3 instead of starting with this retarded car. I sometimes kick myself for not but I am in too deep now. :)

RS8: We have a spare RS6 engine that dropped a valve and will be transferring all the needed RS6 parts onto and into the S8 block. I bought a very good set of S8 heads today and they are on the way to Flow Tech.

Thanks for your experience with 044. Part of my problems is talking to people that are trying to sell you stuff. Although I have asked very specifically about noise out of the 044 I have heard both ways. I refuse to drive around the street with some stupid buzzing fuel pump. The trunk is dynomatted so that will help with whatever pump I get. I will look into the Walbro. I did have a Walbro in a supercharged 4Runner that I had to replace because of noise but I don't remember what model.

I use to use Sach clutches back in the 80s with my Datsun 240/280z cars and Fiats. I will look into them. If I can get 15k miles out of a clutch I will be happy. I won't be going for some super light flywheel. I want to minimize engagement chatter. How much noise does yours make in normal driving? I am not asking about engagement chatter but other noise.

Fuel lines and rails are all planned to be upgraded.

[RS8]

You forget S in my name, my name RS8 not R8 ;)


The old Walbro sounded much more than the Bosch but these new Walbro 400/450 sounds much less than 044


I have no carpets at all on the floor, also the thick heavy carpet under is removed, so I have a lot of road noise in the car, but still it was just too loud noises from my 044, I even built a muted wood box around my catch tank but it didn't help enough,
But now with the new Walbro 450 pump so it's okay sound level I can hear it at idle but it does not bother me.


And one 044 will work for maybe 650hp on gasoline but one Walbro 450LPH will work for 8-900hp

They have cars here with 700 crank hp with one Walbro 450 on Ethanol
and ethanol requires 30% more fuel than petrol.
700 x 30% = 910 hp on normal pump gasoline

And on a RS6 you do not have such high boost pressure so then you do not need a pump that can handle high pressure that a 044 is made for.

[Del Stator]

My purchase of S8 heads didn't work out.

I might have a line of some dealer take offs. The dealer just replaces the entire engine and keeps things like heads. Lee Schwartz might have a line on some from a buddy at a dealership on the west coast...but otherwise still looking if anyone has a set of confirmed good heads. No wallered out cam journals and such. Pressure tested would be even better.

Let me know if anyone might have a lead.

[RS8]

If you are not going to use the S8 intake camshafts then you don't need S8 head you can instead search for A8 4.2L 40v head, and also some S6 V8 heads.

Only ask the dealer to measure so it is 30 mm exhaust valves in the heads he have.

My heads is from A8 310hp, engine code AQF

Intake valves have the same size on RS6 but not exhaust.

And look at the last picture on the RS6 head = it is not possible to fit 30 mm or bigger exhaust valves in a RS6 head, So you need A8,S8 or maybe S6 head for the Ferrea valves you have.

.

15796157981579715799

[Del Stator]

So if we use custom ground camshafts then any of the above heads will work?

[RS8]

So if we use custom ground camshafts then any of the above heads will work?

Yes I think so,
So look for A8 and S6 40v head's around 1999-2005 and see so they have 30mm exhaust valves before you buy it.

[RS8]

any updates?

[s8prtotype]

I thought I read somewhere that the RS6 heads have additional cooling internally?

[Del Stator]

Not really.

I am dealing with Lee Schwartz being totally immersed in racing season so that is moving like molasses. The A8 heads will be at Flowtec next week. I have no idea how long that is going to take.

I finally have all the parts for the transmission build, it took a year to get a custom gear set made... The diffs are in.

Block still isn't bored and sleeved yet....I don't understand how or why after a year but whatever.

I am still waiting on Simon of TTE is get the German RS6 to the dyno to see how the upgrades on that project are working out.

Terry Griffin said three months ago he was going to dyno his old car to see what if anything happens when removing pieces of the intake. I have tired of asking him....

So I just wait and don't see the point in bitching to people to hurry up....it doesn't work anyway.

I am pretty discourage with the rate of progress.

I bought a house in Arkansas and I am way more focused on property upgrades. At least that is moving at a satisfying pace..

Hope to have more news in the next couple of months...

I read the same thing about the bigger cooling passages on the RS6 heads. That might be why the exhaust valves are smaller.

[tightgroup]

It seems to me you are trying to Americanize the RS6. Unlike American cars where go fast parts are bolted on hoping for better results, while not destroying other components. Its like a big lego set. The RS6 on the other hand was engineered from the ground up.. if you wish to attain a certain goal , you will need to go through the same process and re-engineer the car

[RS8]

I thought I read somewhere that the RS6 heads have additional cooling internally?
Yes the RS6 head have bigger water jacket on the exhaust side.
But if you want high power then you need bigger exhaust valves and then you have to use A8 or S8 head.

Here is info about the water jacket on RS6

16290

[Korben007]

I have a S6 motor BBD that I was gonna build for my RS6. This is identical to S8 motor other than cams yes?

[Del Stator]

It seems to me you are trying to Americanize the RS6. Unlike American cars where go fast parts are bolted on hoping for better results, while not destroying other components. Its like a big lego set. The RS6 on the other hand was engineered from the ground up.. if you wish to attain a certain goal , you will need to go through the same process and re-engineer the car

I have no idea what you are talking about. I get what you are trying to say but what does that have to do with my project?

If I am not reengineering this car then I don't know what the words mean. Thanks for your advice. I now understand what I have been doing wrong... :0:


Korben007: Thanks for the offer but I don't need another engine. I just need the one that we have to get sent to the Victory and get going. Since we are using so many different parts from different engines to make a Frankenstein engine (RS6/A8/S8) everyone want to have all of the parts that are going to be used all together so that no mistakes are made. Like they want the ARP bolts in hand before they start boring and sleeving. Lee Schwartz is the same way. He wants every single spec in front of him before he starts building the heads.

[SeeMyC5]

Any update?

[nene]

I have driven most of what BMW has to offer around a track and I did not find that I had more fun with a heavy car with more horsepower. The 2019 M5 Competition around the track was fun but just in weight alone it did not make it more fun because I could track it faster on the straights.
The M2 on the other hand was a whole lot more fun around both tracks I used it on, in comparison. The M4 was also fun.

To my point, why build an RS6 to go for an occasional track day? I think your money would have been better invested elsewhere for a track focused car, where it is lighter and handles better.
Get the RS6 well sorted and enjoy it daily, and slam the gas pedal on occasion on some on-ramps or empty highway cruisin'...

I tried to do too much at once on the B5 S4 I had and never really got to the enjoy that car as I should have. I was determined not to make the same mistake on the RS6, or any of my other cars.

[papadoc]

To my point, why build an RS6 to go for an occasional track day? I think your money would have been better invested elsewhere for a track focused car, where it is lighter and handles better.
Get the RS6 well sorted and enjoy it daily, and slam the gas pedal on occasion on some on-ramps or empty highway cruisin'...

Again great advice from a long time RS6 owner.

[DHall1]

Did Nene say B5 S4?

i bought one! Had so much fun with my supercharged RS4 that the old B5 peaked my interest.

stage 3 Nogaro with sport package. I love it

https://www.rs6.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19258&stc=1