1000hp c5 rs6

[ColoradoRS]

I'm going to be doing a full build on our shops RS6. It's going to be a full custom build including turbos, rods, manual transmission and all accompanying components. I've done rough calculations on the turbo's flow charts and to reach 1000HP shouldn't be too tough. My question to everyone is.... If I can make this kit successful and reliable, who would be interested in the kit? I can't give quotes on pricing yet because I need to find out where all the weak links are and know what areas need to be upgraded to have a reliable car. At these HP levels I know that "reliable" is a somewhat loose term but I'd like to make the kit and still be able to have a car that can be driven on the streets and be used for more than just a dyno or track queen. If you own an rs6 and would have interest in a kit, PM me so I can have an idea of if this kit would be worth producing on more than a "one off" basis. I'm also most likely going to produce a kit that can be used with the stock transmission (upgraded stock transmission that is) for those who do not wish to go manual. Make sure to tell me which kit you'd want to go with. Thanks!

[lswing]

Upgraded stock transmission will blow at 5-600 hp/tq from what I've seen. Just seems impossible due to the design of the internals. That along with almost zero space for larger turbos, and increased tightness and heat would just make things worse. I think IPT makes an auto box for $6k that supposidly can take ~700 hp/tq, but I bet it shifts rough as hell, and fairly certain it would still break under aggressive driving, the clutch packs are just so small. There are also all the other driveline components not engineered for 1000hp. Just seems a far stretch that could easily cost $20k+. That said, please document your build!:)

[Turbowned]

I'm in no position to pony up the cash for such a kit now, but given time, it's something I'd be interested in for sure. The ultimate goal would be to have a 5:1 power-to-weight ratio vehicle (~800hp). If it's doable in the RS6, let's do it!

Otherwise I have to build a 560hp BRZ... Sadly this is likely more cost-effective to do.
http://hkcarworld.com/news/car-tuning-subaru-brz-accelerated-performance-brz-400-turbo-kit-550-hp-photo-gallery

[ColoradoRS]

Thanks for posting up with your thoughts guys! The 1000hp build is definitely not going to be a cheap build. 20k is probably fair to guesstimate but as I stated earlier, I'm not going to post ANY pricing until im deep into the build. For the people that want to keep the auto tranny, I'll do some arithmetic and try to get some rough figures on what the max hp will be for stock location turbos. Going that route will be MUCH cheaper.

[na1mt]

Level 10 will build the tranny to hold whatever power you care to make.

[lswing]

Level 10 will build the tranny to hold whatever power you care to make.

They've had their problems too, documented by past owners. It comes down to the design of the trans, just too many small breakable pieces. Driving habits are huge too. Driveability starts to decrease with higher vb pressure and increased clutch friction and quantity of plates, gets rough and jumpy the higher hp/tq rating you go. If the clutches don't burn out the driveshaft or misc parts will snap. Now you could go for it, but there will be serious longevity and cost issues.

[Bigglezworth]

15741

Here we go again...

[Del Stator]

I am building my RS6 right now and we are...(making up numbers here)...shooting for maybe 750-850. I will guarantee you it will be way over 20k in parts lswing. ;)

I don't have the exact cost of each part in front of me but I will list parts we are using.

Custom hybrid turbos....over 5k.
S8 European 4.2 TT rebuilt block...no adapter kit needed. You have to install steel sleeves.
Pauter Rods
J&E pistons 8.5CR
Ferrera Valves
Custom ported heads
Custom valve springs
Maybe camshafts..
Wagner intercoolers
Custom high flow headers in stock configuration
Obviously custom exhaust
01E TDI built
Twin disc to hold 800-1000ftlbs. Over 3K.
I am doing a custom gear set but that is just icing...
Upgraded diff front and rear. Not needed..
Aquamist 100% methanol injection
034 Surge Tank w/ Bosch 044
Bosch 044 intank
Custom fuel injectors
Vented hood
Custom tune and dyno time.
Custom intake and MAFs.

You have to get the intake flowing way more and the exhaust flowing way more.

I am not doing the labor. This is R8 kind of money.....and not a older stock one either. Well, that would include all the extras such as wheels, suspension, mounts and a host of other none essentials. After all of this the car might be able to be sold for 45k maybe. This is totally an irrational, emotional car build. I wouldn't recommend this for the faint of heart....or billfold.

I still am not sure were we end up HP wise. There is a build going on in Germany right now that is shooting for over 900hp and his build is very expensive. He is using stock location for turbos but not stock exhaust manifolds. I decided to not go with the BW EFR 7163 because I didn't want to deal with the custom exhaust manifold headaches....and to just get this thing moving along.

It would be cool to put together a kit but AMD and EPL basically do that....if you can actually get someone to talk to you more than once every 2.5 months. I gave up on that crap....but I digress. They are not getting into the 800-1000hp range though. Not that they couldn't but to go that far you are on another level of cost.

I would say build yourself and car and dial it in and then think about a kit. You might be putting the cart before the horse with serious talk about a kit. A collection of unproven parts does not make a kit. Hope I don't sound like a dick..

I had a 517 built transmission with everything they could throw at it. I was making about 571ftlbs and I felt very disconnected from my power. It was ok but not what I am looking for. I should have done the manual in the first place.

By the way, anyone know what ever happened to Milka's build??

[ColoradoRS]

I am building my RS6 right now and we are...(making up numbers here)...shooting for maybe 750-850. I will guarantee you it will be way over 20k in parts lswing. ;)

I don't have the exact cost of each part in front of me but I will list parts we are using.

Custom hybrid turbos....over 5k.
S8 European 4.2 TT rebuilt block...no adapter kit needed. You have to install steel sleeves.
Pauter Rods
J&E pistons 8.5CR
Ferrera Valves
Custom ported heads
Custom valve springs
Maybe camshafts..
Wagner intercoolers
Custom high flow headers in stock configuration
Obviously custom exhaust
01E TDI built
Twin disc to hold 800-1000ftlbs. Over 3K.
I am doing a custom gear set but that is just icing...
Upgraded diff front and rear. Not needed..
Aquamist 100% methanol injection
034 Surge Tank w/ Bosch 044
Bosch 044 intank
Custom fuel injectors
Vented hood
Custom tune and dyno time.
Custom intake and MAFs.

You have to get the intake flowing way more and the exhaust flowing way more.

I am not doing the labor. This is R8 kind of money.....and not a older stock one either. Well, that would include all the extras such as wheels, suspension, mounts and a host of other none essentials. After all of this the car might be able to be sold for 45k maybe. This is totally an irrational, emotional car build. I wouldn't recommend this for the faint of heart....or billfold.

I still am not sure were we end up HP wise. There is a build going on in Germany right now that is shooting for over 900hp and his build is very expensive. He is using stock location for turbos but not stock exhaust manifolds. I decided to not go with the BW EFR 7163 because I didn't want to deal with the custom exhaust manifold headaches....and to just get this thing moving along.

It would be cool to put together a kit but AMD and EPL basically do that....if you can actually get someone to talk to you more than once every 2.5 months. I gave up on that crap....but I digress. They are not getting into the 800-1000hp range though. Not that they couldn't but to go that far you are on another level of cost.

I would say build yourself and car and dial it in and then think about a kit. You might be putting the cart before the horse with serious talk about a kit. A collection of unproven parts does not make a kit. Hope I don't sound like a dick..

I had a 517 built transmission with everything they could throw at it. I was making about 571ftlbs and I felt very disconnected from my power. It was ok but not what I am looking for. I should have done the manual in the first place.

By the way, anyone know what ever happened to Milka's build??


No, I don't agree with you, I'm not putting the cart before the horse. I needed to find out how many people would have an interest in a kit so that way I know whether to build jigs for the exhaust manifolds, whether to build stock location manifolds, whether to chart every expense and labor hour and whether to talk to the vendors to see what type of discounts I can get if ordering more than parts for just one car. There's not many of these cars out there in the US but I figured there had to be a few people that didn't want to buy loba's over priced stuff and also a few people that wanted more HP than stock location turbos would give you. For the people that want stock location turbos I'm going to build a set of manifolds and try to see what turbo's can be fit in with the stock tranny. There's already one great solution from silly rabbit motorsports. K24 wheels in the stock turbos. They're getting very close to having actual HP gain numbers from their turbos. If I can't find a good solution for stock location turbos I'm just going to refer everyone that wants to keep their stock tranny to SRM and let SRM build their turbo's for them. I'm hoping I can make a setup work that allows for bigger turbo's though. I know not everyone can afford the downtime required to do a custom build nor does everyone have the tools, friends, knowledge or access to a good local shop that is willing to do a custom build. I work VERY hard to have happy customers and I guarantee you that when this ends up coming together, you won't have to try to call me for months on end without a call back to get support. My shop phone number is also my cell so I'm always available. I'm even guilty of taking phone calls at 10 oclock at night to help customers (the girlfriend doesn't like that too much though). Being that I'm doing this to our shop car and don't have a big financier funding it, the build isn't going to come together over night. I'll keep everyone posted as to the progress. I just got an 01e core that is going to be rebuilt and put in the car. The guy that builds one of the 01e conversion kit's said that his flywheel that he offers with the kit will not work with a clutch that's capable of holding tq #'s near the 1000 mark. So I'm going to have to figure out a solution for that too.

[SteveKen]

I'd suggest looking up Haydn at HT Motorworks. He's on here, too.

As I recall, he built a 1K HP powerplant using the RS6 long block with EFR 600 turbos for a C7 RS4 using my kit with a custom flywheel & tilton flywheel setup.

http://www.htmotorworks.com/#!project-rs-x/c1vrn

The turbos were not in the stock location, though.

[DHall1]

Too soon to call this one. The horse may have a heartbeat.


15741

Here we go again...

[ColoradoRS]

I'd suggest looking up Haydn at HT Motorworks. He's on here, too.

As I recall, he built a 1K HP powerplant using the RS6 long block with EFR 600 turbos for a C7 RS4 using my kit with a custom flywheel & tilton flywheel setup.

http://www.htmotorworks.com/#!project-rs-x/c1vrn

The turbos were not in the stock location, though.


That is a gorgeous build!

[ben916]

I'd suggest looking up Haydn at HT Motorworks. He's on here, too.

As I recall, he built a 1K HP powerplant using the RS6 long block with EFR 600 turbos for a C7 RS4 using my kit with a custom flywheel & tilton flywheel setup.

http://www.htmotorworks.com/#!project-rs-x/c1vrn

The turbos were not in the stock location, though.

This is the company that did the "RSS6" Judas (RS6 with blown motor and shoved a LS Chevy motor in there until it caught on fire in a parking lot)

[Turbowned]

I would fully expect a 1,000hp RS6 to cost north of $20k to build. I had just spent about $10k to get 330bhp out of my BRZ. Add das German car tax, transmission conversion, and double the number of compressors, intercoolers, fuel injectors, fuel pumps, etc. and there's no way I could see it costing less than $20k.

It's gonna be hard to pony up that much interest considering how few of our cars are out there and make it profitable; hence why nothing has really been offered before. I want to see it happen, don't get me wrong, but you'd likely have a better chance of offering a twin turbo kit for a Gallardo or Huracan than our RS6. Surely I'd love to be able to call you up in a couple years and buy one, assuming I haven't gotten bored with the RS and gotten something else like I have a bad tendency to do with cars every year or two... also assuming I still don't care to have a mortgage at that point...

[Del Stator]

I would buy headers tomorrow with stock location mounting points if they were available and flowed well.

I am sending my exhaust manifolds to a guy in North Carolina that has a $350k header making machine. He works with top racing teams and engine builders all over the world for every kind of racing you can think of. I have not spoken to him personally but will soon. I have a referral from Lee Swartz from NC (The Professor) who is building my heads. I am just going to send the exhaust manifolds to this guy and say make them flow. When I get them back I can send you pictures....unless I hear they are something silly in price. I hear they are works of art. The machine rolls, bend and welds the entire header. Sounds pretty interesting..

When I say AMD and EPL already have kits. I don't really mean in a kit per sa. Put they have all of the pieces to do one. AMD has the Tial set up. I know I have read somewhere that EPL has a custom MAF kit. I don't know much more than that.

I have been more concerned about intake flow than turbos. I haven't actually seen the EPL MAF kit. I don't know if it uses the stock box or not. I don't think the stock box is going to get me where I want to be even if bigger MAFs were installed....but I am ignorant to this. I am also moving back to Arkansas so every single thing that can be removed from emissions are being pulled!!!!!!!

I'm working with Simon Sharp at TTE for some pretty amazing and over priced turbos. I am not really saving money by not going custom configuration headers and EFRs but I am saving PITA time by just getting stock location headers made. Will kind of be a wash money wise. They are a step above in HP than what they have on their website. Simon worked and learned a lot at Loba and is working with TTE (The Turbo Engineers). He seems to have a passion for the RS6 of all generations. But stuff isn't cheap.

It is good to here someone can actually talk to you. I know these other guys are in high demand and running thin but it has been absolutely absurd trying to communicate.

Keep us informed!! :)

[RS8]

I am building my RS6 right now and we are...(making up numbers here)...shooting for maybe 750-850.


S8 European 4.2 TT rebuilt block...no adapter kit needed. You have to install steel sleeves.

Ferrera Valves
Custom ported heads
Custom valve springs
Maybe camshafts..


Hi

Where is it you need to install the steel sleeves ?

I hope you will use the S8 cylinder heads, they have larger exhaust ducts and bigger seat rings
and why not also use the S8 camshafts? they have much more lift on the S8 intake cams than the what RS6 have.

[Bigglezworth]

Why not also use the S8 camshafts? they have much more lift on the S8 intake cams than the what RS6 have.Although additional lift can't hurt, it's the duration and overlap of the cams that is more important on a forced induction engine.

[RS8]

No I'm not R8dream.
You do not need to drill and assemble steel liner in block for just 1000hp!? maybe if you go beyond 2000hp


It is not only more lift, S8 cams have also more duration.


I have two RS6 BCY engines and one A8 40v engine disassembled so I now the real difference!


RS6 have 3mm smaller exhaust valves than A8/S8, so if you buy supertech valves AEVI-1206S
http://supertechperformance.com/cat-ExhaustValve?mk=5720&ca=418&en=5803
they will not fit in RS6 head because they are 4mm bigger!! and not 1mm that it says on the web site because 1mm bigger is if you have A8/S8 heads.


And yes I have bought this supertech valves and have ported my A8 heads and installed the supertech valves in it but I have not built up the whole engine yet.

I run so far on a standard RS6 engine, but with the A8 cams and bigger turbos, exhaust manifolds and other stuff in my S8/RS8

[Bigglezworth]

It is not only more lift, S8 cams have also more duration.


I have two RS6 BCY engines and one A8 40v engine disassembled so I now the real difference!This is logical given the S8 is NA while the RS6 is FI. In order to extract that additional power at higher RPM, the cams would want to have additional duration and overlap. Being as I have never undertaken any modifications to a base S8 40V 4.2, I would have no reason to have known what the differences are. Great information to learn about for anyone that is looking to get a bit more out of their base engines - albeit not as affordable as merely doing a flash...

[RS8]

Here you have some information on the intake cams
A8 and S8 40v have more duration than RS6

A8 have only 0.3mm more lift.

But S8 have 1.3mm more lift.


It would be interesting to know how RS4 B7 cams are against RS6
I think they are even better than S8 if you want to go over 1000hp but I don't know if they will fit the RS6/S8 engine.

[Del Stator]

Cleaning up your thread...

[ColoradoRS]

The only thing that's going to be expensive about buying manifolds from me is the labor that goes into welding them. I'm also contemplating getting the first set or two sent out and xrayed to make sure the welder is set correctly and everything is bonded the best that it can be. The last thing I want is to have someone buy a set and have them crack later on down the road and have to do an engine pull because of it. I'm very meticulous when it comes to stuff like that so you can rest assured that they'll be about as good as you can get. things seem to be getting better at my shop so I'm hoping things will come together and allow me the time to start these kits. I Know that with the turbos I'm going to use for the manual transmission kit will be able to put down some pretty serious numbers and have great spool. They won't be priced as ridiculous as the tISO kits either. I have to make some money to pay the bills but I'm not looking to get rich off selling a few turbo kits. I agree with everyone that keeping the engine bay cool is going to be tough but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Epl definitely does their research and testing before they release the fueling components so I'd love to see a kit for large turbos on the rs6. I'll have to call tony and see what he's got brewing.

[RS8]

I think it is unnecessary to make a kit with larger turbos for the automatic transmission, then it's probably better that you do better manifolds for the RS6 turbos that fit stock transmission.
if you sell them at a good price, then all that makes an engine overhaul like to buy these.
(and everyone that already have upgraded RS6 turbos like Loba etc. but are using the stock exhaust manifolds now)



Better to concentrate on doing a good 1000HP kit for manual transmission, but be aware that you will need to build new or rebuild the old intake air duct and make oil and water pressure lines to fit it.
And next question will the RS6 air mass meter work for 1000hp? otherwise you need to build air duct kit with other meters.


Fuel rail you can take from the aftermarket made for 1.8t engine and modify them so it fits, I have that on my RS6 engine with EV14 95lb/1000cc injectors.
I have 2 of this: http://shop.nukeperformance.com/fuel-rails/audi/fuel-rail-
But if EPL can make a direct fit for good price then that will be great.

[Turbowned]

RS8, your car seems quite impressive! Do you have more pictures or a build thread located somewhere?

[Del Stator]

No I'm not R8dream.
You do not need to drill and assemble steel liner in block for just 1000hp!? maybe if you go beyond 2000hp


It is not only more lift, S8 cams have also more duration.


I have two RS6 BCY engines and one A8 40v engine disassembled so I now the real difference!


RS6 have 3mm smaller exhaust valves than A8/S8, so if you buy supertech valves AEVI-1206S
http://supertechperformance.com/cat-ExhaustValve?mk=5720&ca=418&en=5803
they will not fit in RS6 head because they are 4mm bigger!! and not 1mm that it says on the web site because 1mm bigger is if you have A8/S8 heads.


And yes I have bought this supertech valves and have ported my A8 heads and installed the supertech valves in it but I have not built up the whole engine yet.

I run so far on a standard RS6 engine, but with the A8 cams and bigger turbos, exhaust manifolds and other stuff in my S8/RS8

I sent an inquiry to SuperTech about differences in heads and valves. As you can read it isn't a straight forward answer.

"Christopher
Unfortunately VW-Audi has so many engines codes that is quite confusing and the information available is not consistent either to be 100% sure.

I can tell you that our valves fit the engine codes BHF, BHK and several others. The best thing to do is to measure the head diameter and total length of your valves to be 100% sure. Another reference is that the original part number prefix starts with 077. This may be confusing too because I saw people advertising parts for the BHF with p/n starting with 079. I don’t know what the difference is.

So again, best thing to do is to measure the original valves.

Best regards.

Willy Tagliavini
Supertech Performance Inc."


I am shipping my RS6 heads out next week. So that is my direction. I am sure many people would find your experience with swapping stock parts around very interesting when building an engine set up. But as I already have Ferrea valves purchased I am not derailing my slow train anymore....

[RS8]

Sad that they don't know what they are selling!
BHK is an Audi Q7 3.6L engine? and BHF is Audi S4 V8 US spec.
If they read in Audis spare part catalog then they will see that all Audi RS6 exhaust valve have part number 077109611M and you can't find them in any other Audi V8 engine what I know.
But the intake valve is the same as many other Audi engines.


RS6 head have another casting than S8, because they have a bigger water mantle in the exhaust area that is good for cooling but it can be problem if you want to max out the flowing capacity of your heads and I guess this is the reason that they fit much smaller exhaust valves and seat rings in the RS6 engine.


If you have S8 heads also then I suggest you bring them together with the RS6 head to the guy that will build your heads so he can decide what is best.
If he measures the dimension of the exhaust and intake valves, he will find that it is too small exhaust valves in RS6 engine for it to become a good flow through the engine.
RS6 exhaust valves is only 27mm each (on A8 and S8 they are 30mm)
intake you have 3 valves that is 26,5mm each.



This Ferrera valves you have bought what is the dimensions on them?
I can't find them on Ferrera web site? (I found it on ebay but it says 29.9mm? and on another website it says 30,9mm?)

[Del Stator]

I don't have the valves in hand. I was thinking about sending both sets as you say..

I am going to continue to look into this...

[ColoradoRS]

I'm going to throw this one out there for everyone because in my opinion, the hardest part of this kit is going to be a good intake that doesn't just suck in hot air.... If anyone has any good ideas or thoughts on how to modify the intake system to get it to flow big air while also retaining the ability to keep the air charge cold, please feel free to post up. I've got a few ideas but they'll have to wait till I have everything torn apart. Also, my uncle is a sheet metal worker and loves to do custom projects so he'd love it if we gave him something to make. They built this engine bay with such little room, I'm going to have to get very creative if I want a cold air charge. I was thinking about incorporating the Apikol intake but I feel that putting the intake cones right above the headers is a less efficient way of doing things.... Maybe I'll change my mind, we'll see....

[DHall1]

Champion Audi RS6

Look at the airbox. Problem solved

[Del Stator]

http://audisrs.com/sutra558226.php

I don't see how this is going to help a street car.

15746

[DHall1]

Like a 1000hp RS6 will be a daily driver.:burnout:

[Del Stator]

Like a 1000hp RS6 will be a daily driver.:burnout:

Good point...

[RS8]

But is it really a problem with the RS6 airbox?
Okay if you stand still, the air becomes very hot inside but as long as you drive so I do not think there is any danger with temperature.
With good intercoolers, they will cool down the air almost to the outside temperature.
That is what I can see with my Wagner ic's.


I notice that more trouble is that the temperature then increased sharply when the air enters the intake manifold, for I have 20-30 ° C higher temperature in the intake manifold than what I have, out of the ic's !


So maybe you should make thick plastic gaskets between the cylinder head and intake so not the heat is transferred there and then dress or heat protecting the intake manifold In some way?

[lswing]

But is it really a problem with the RS6 airbox?
Okay if you stand still, the air becomes very hot inside but as long as you drive so I do not think there is any danger with temperature.
With good intercoolers, they will cool down the air almost to the outside temperature.
That is what I can see with my Wagner ic's.


I notice that more trouble is that the temperature then increased sharply when the air enters the intake manifold, for I have 20-30 ° C higher temperature in the intake manifold than what I have, out of the ic's !


So maybe you should make thick plastic gaskets between the cylinder head and intake so not the heat is transferred there and then dress or heat protecting the intake manifold In some way?

I've heard of the stock airbox cavitating or warping/leaking under high boost pressure; increased suction right? Seems like an open airflow with less restriction would make everything happy.

[Del Stator]

This is my Fluid Motor Union intake. Some don't agree with the design but I think it is pretty good. My only concern is that you can't get bigger MAFs in here without basically completely rebuilding the box and tubing. Not something I am opposed to but I want to explore other options as well.

Although the more I look at this I am thinking about building a box that is of a rounded designed for the plenum and bigger tubing to the air element boxes.

I will ask Lee Schwartz of Flow Tech if he knows where to send this for more development.

15750

http://us.bmcairfilters.com/

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/26709-RS6-Fluid-MotorUnion-Intake-System?highlight=

I spoke to Mike Marano and this was his response about HP numbers and the design.

"We were never able to confirm HP/Torque numbers on the dyno as our car was highly modified so there was no real comparison. That being said, everyone that was running 1/4 mile times, dyno's, etc. confirmed the results! Hope you did as well! Hard to tell in a powerful TT V8 sedan!!!!!

In regards to the design, we put a few different designs into consideration and what you see showed the best results in regards to flow, etc. I think we would have liked it to be a little bit different but as you know, there isn't a ton of space in there!

Keeping that in mind, we wanted to incorporate the dual velocity stack setup inside that little plenum in order to better help with flow. We've seen in the past that any type of turn hinders performance so we try to avoid them at all times!

Let me know if that answers your questions! If you have any others please feel free to send them over.

Talk Soon,
Mike"


The FMU intake takes care of the open element Apikol design. If the metal parts are coating for heat repulsion it could make a nice setup. I have the rather ugly MTM hood vents so I am not too concerned with heat. I still don't know if I can make myself use them. But I won't be cutting my stock hood...

[RS8]

I've heard of the stock airbox cavitating or warping/leaking under high boost pressure; increased suction right? Seems like an open airflow with less restriction would make everything happy.
I thought we were just talking about the air temperature?

But regarding cavitation, I still don't think the big problem is the air box, I think it is these 2 silver íntake air duct, just look inside them! I don't know what they where thinking about when they made them?


It is two 4 inch inputs to air box, but in the middle of the silver air duct I think it is somewhere between 1-2inch only?


So of course will airbox implode when you restrict the air flow before it!

So next question is have Apikol and BMC/FMU made new bigger or do they use the OEM ? Because if they use OEM then I think it will put an end long before 1000 hp

[4everRS]

What does the gumpert Apollo use for mafs?

[DHall1]

Ding ding!!

Winner winner


I thought we were just talking about the air temperature?

But regarding cavitation, I still don't think the big problem is the air box, I think it is these 2 silver íntake air duct, just look inside them! I don't know what they where thinking about when they made them?


It is two 4 inch inputs to air box, but in the middle of the silver air duct I think it is somewhere between 1-2inch only?


So of course will airbox implode when you restrict the air flow before it!

So next question is have Apikol and BMC/FMU made new bigger or do they use the OEM ? Because if they use OEM then I think it will put an end long before 1000 hp

[Del Stator]

Yes they use the OEM parts. That is one of the places I have wanted to look at upgrading but not having my car in front of me hasn't made it easy to figure out..

It would be nice to find out how much air cfm can go through Audi's pre-filter intake tubing. I am not sure how that is tested but I have heard people doing flow tests on different intake parts.

I am going to check into it..

[RS8]

It seems that all these ugly kit uses the silver oem intake air ducts?

As a beginning is to try and make new ones but bigger,
I only have modified mine with hot air gun but it was hard to get them bigger because they are molded, so best is to make new bigger in ABS plastic.


157581575715756

[lswing]

It seems that all these ugly kit uses the silver oem intake air ducts?

As a beginning is to try and make new ones but bigger,
I only have modified mine with hot air gun but it was hard to get them bigger because they are molded, so best is to make new bigger in ABS plastic.


157581575715756

Ha, I've always though that. Why make these ugly, if you're going to do some custom work at least make it look good. As you noted, it's really the first intake part that needs the work. I'm sure someone could mold some new ones, or maybe fiberglass/carbon some.

[DHall1]

Oh so simple

Take them out and test in cool conditions. That will tell you if larger ducts are needed.

[Del Stator]

Oh so simple

Take them out and test in cool conditions. That will tell you if larger ducts are needed.

That is a great idea!

It would be an easy test as well on the dyno.

[Del Stator]

Sad that they don't know what they are selling!
BHK is an Audi Q7 3.6L engine? and BHF is Audi S4 V8 US spec.
If they read in Audis spare part catalog then they will see that all Audi RS6 exhaust valve have part number 077109611M and you can't find them in any other Audi V8 engine what I know.
But the intake valve is the same as many other Audi engines.


RS6 head have another casting than S8, because they have a bigger water mantle in the exhaust area that is good for cooling but it can be problem if you want to max out the flowing capacity of your heads and I guess this is the reason that they fit much smaller exhaust valves and seat rings in the RS6 engine.


If you have S8 heads also then I suggest you bring them together with the RS6 head to the guy that will build your heads so he can decide what is best.
If he measures the dimension of the exhaust and intake valves, he will find that it is too small exhaust valves in RS6 engine for it to become a good flow through the engine.
RS6 exhaust valves is only 27mm each (on A8 and S8 they are 30mm)
intake you have 3 valves that is 26,5mm each.



This Ferrera valves you have bought what is the dimensions on them?
I can't find them on Ferrera web site? (I found it on ebay but it says 29.9mm? and on another website it says 30,9mm?)


This is from the Ferrea 2015 catalog.

http://www.ferrea.com/product_images/catalog-file-5.pdf

AUDI 1.8T - DOHC 20 VALVE - 1996-2005
AUDI 2.7T - DOHC 30 VALVE (APB) 1998-2004
AUDI RS6 4.2L - DOHC V8 40 VALVE (BCY) - 2002-2004

Head Stem Overall Tip
Part# Type Diam. Diam. Length Length References
COMPETITION PLUS VALVES
F1554P E 29.9mm 5.96mm 103.92mm 5mm 26º Flo. Stk size. Trip. groove. 2 Valves required
F1555P E 30.9mm 5.96mm 103.92mm 5mm 26º Flo. +1 mm o/s. Trip. groove. 2 Valves required
F1556P I 26.9mm 5.97mm 105.1mm 5mm 24º Sup. Flo. Stk size. Trip. groove. 3 Val. required
F1557P I 27.9mm 5.97mm 105.1mm 5mm 24º Sup. Flo. +1 mm o/s. Trip. groove. 3 Val. required

Stock spec RS6 valves:

Intake: 26.9
Exhaust: 29.9

+1 sizemm o/s

Intake: 27.9
Exhaust: 30.9

Unless Supertech and Ferrea are wrong, I believe the S8 and RS6 valves are the same size..

I have been confused since you said that stock RS6 exhaust valves are 27mm. I cannot find that information anywhere...actually I find the opposite...intake valves are 27.

[4everRS]

In this video, watch closely to the reflection on the air box being pulled in by suction.

http://youtu.be/R4qBs80_0fU

[RS8]

This is from the Ferrea 2015 catalog.

http://www.ferrea.com/product_images/catalog-file-5.pdf

AUDI 1.8T - DOHC 20 VALVE - 1996-2005
AUDI 2.7T - DOHC 30 VALVE (APB) 1998-2004
AUDI RS6 4.2L - DOHC V8 40 VALVE (BCY) - 2002-2004

Head Stem Overall Tip
Part# Type Diam. Diam. Length Length References
COMPETITION PLUS VALVES
F1554P E 29.9mm 5.96mm 103.92mm 5mm 26º Flo. Stk size. Trip. groove. 2 Valves required
F1555P E 30.9mm 5.96mm 103.92mm 5mm 26º Flo. +1 mm o/s. Trip. groove. 2 Valves required
F1556P I 26.9mm 5.97mm 105.1mm 5mm 24º Sup. Flo. Stk size. Trip. groove. 3 Val. required
F1557P I 27.9mm 5.97mm 105.1mm 5mm 24º Sup. Flo. +1 mm o/s. Trip. groove. 3 Val. required

Stock spec RS6 valves:

Intake: 26.9
Exhaust: 29.9

+1 sizemm o/s

Intake: 27.9
Exhaust: 30.9

Unless Supertech and Ferrea are wrong, I believe the S8 and RS6 valves are the same size..

I have been confused since you said that stock RS6 exhaust valves are 27mm. I cannot find that information anywhere...actually I find the opposite...intake valves are 27.


That info is correct for A8/S8 and 1.8t/2.7T and not for RS6 !

Why don't you just measure on your RS6 head?

And read this information about RS6:
1576015759

[RS8]

And here you have my A8 head with A8, RS6 and Supertech valves that I have measured!

1576215761

[RS8]

I did the exhaust valves on the RS6 are the same diameter as the exhaust valves on the S8. Have you actually measured or even seen these valves in person or are you going off off product literature that is often incorrect?
But did you have 30mm exhaust valves on RS6 and S8 head?

Is the RS6 head from BCY engine?

What engine code is it on the heads you have?

[scottmandu]

Head Stem Overall Tip
Part# Type Diam. Diam. Length Length References
COMPETITION PLUS VALVES
F1554P E 29.9mm 5.96mm 103.92mm 5mm 26º Flo. Stk size. Trip. groove. 2 Valves required
F1555P E 30.9mm 5.96mm 103.92mm 5mm 26º Flo. +1 mm o/s. Trip. groove. 2 Valves required
F1556P I 26.9mm 5.97mm 105.1mm 5mm 24º Sup. Flo. Stk size. Trip. groove. 3 Val. required
F1557P I 27.9mm 5.97mm 105.1mm 5mm 24º Sup. Flo. +1 mm o/s. Trip. groove. 3 Val. required



The lengths are incorrect for the V8 engines. I deleted my last post as I was incorrect.

[Del Stator]

But did you have 30mm exhaust valves on RS6 and S8 head?

Is the RS6 head from BCY engine?

What engine code is it on the heads you have?

I don't have my car with me.

The engine is the original engine from a US spec 2003 RS6.

I don't know what information is correct pertaining to other engines. And I don't have my heads in hand. I am going to talk to Ferrea and get the biggest valves available for my RS6 heads. There certainly is lots of uncertainly about this subject...

[RS8]

The lengths are incorrect for the V8 engines. I deleted my last post as I was incorrect.

Okey, So you haven't measured the valves on RS6 and S8 head as you said you have?

(But as I have done and showed in the post above)

[RS8]

I don't have my car with me.

The engine is the original engine from a US spec 2003 RS6.

I don't know what information is correct pertaining to other engines. And I don't have my heads in hand. I am going to talk to Ferrea and get the biggest valves available for my RS6 heads. There certainly is lots of uncertainly about this subject...

But didn't you say that you where going to ship your heads this week? or have you already done it? (you have engine code in the front of one head where the lifting eye is)
If you have shipped them away already, then let your head guy Lee Schwartz measure them before you talk to Ferrea again.

[Del Stator]

Yes the holidays has slowed down everything. The heads are not even off of my RS6 engine yet.

If the valves we have bought are actually for a S8 then that works for me. I will keep my engine intact and find some S8 heads.

I am sorry but I am totally confused at this moment.... :/

I am not going to post anymore about this until I totally understand what is going on. I can't continue to relay second hand information.....

[RS8]

Yes the holidays has slowed down everything. The heads are not even off of my RS6 engine yet.

If the valves we have bought are actually for a S8 then that works for me. I will keep my engine intact and find some S8 heads.

I am sorry but I am totally confused at this moment.... :/

I am not going to post anymore about this until I totally understand what is going on. I can't continue to relay second hand information.....

Okay so you have a working RS6 car and you have S8 cylinder block but not the S8 heads?

All the information that I have written about valves is what I have measured up and not something I heard from someone else ..

[Del Stator]

Yes, I understand but it is also confusing what the companies post in their catalogs.

It means that both Supertech and Ferrea are wrong in their catalogs. It certainly is possible that that is the case but definitely cause for confusion.

It seems that I have had purchased on my behalf a set of Ferrea valves for a non RS6 head. At least that is what it seems at this moment...


15763

If what you say is that the RS6 head only accepts 27mm exhaust valves....although the catalogs say different, then I might just need to get a set of S8 heads for the purchased valves and all is good. Assuming they are indeed the correct size in all dimensions.

Don't think I am trying to tell you something different than what you know.... :)

I am trying to fit what you are saying into what I am being told and reading....and so far nothing is matching up.

It might not be until Ferrea opens on Monday until I can get this totally sorted out.

As this information isn't directly related to the intended purpose of this thread I am going to take all other posts about this subject to my build thread...

[RS8]

Yes, I understand but it is also confusing what the companies post in their catalogs.

It means that both Supertech and Ferrea are wrong in their catalogs. It certainly is possible that that is the case but definitely cause for confusion.

It seems that I have had purchased on my behalf a set of Ferrea valves for a non RS6 head. At least that is what it seems at this moment...


15763

If what you say is that the RS6 head only accepts 27mm exhaust valves....although the catalogs say different, then I might just need to get a set of S8 heads for the purchased valves and all is good. Assuming they are indeed the correct size in all dimensions.

Don't think I am trying to tell you something different than what you know.... :)

I am trying to fit what you are saying into what I am being told and reading....and so far nothing is matching up.

It might not be until Ferrea opens on Monday until I can get this totally sorted out.

As this information isn't directly related to the intended purpose of this thread I am going to take all other posts about this subject to my build thread...


Where do you have your build thread ??

I can show you what is different between the RS6 and S8 cylinder block.
So what you must do if you want to assemble your RS6 parts on S8 engine.

[scottmandu]

Where do you have your build thread ??

I can show you what is different between the RS6 and S8 cylinder block.
So what you must do if you want to assemble your RS6 parts on S8 engine.

I have it at my shop.

[RS8]

I have it at my shop.

What do you mean?
Do you have "Del Stators" car with you?
Or are you two the same person?

Can you link to the project thread?

[Del Stator]

Scott of Advanced Automotion has my car.

I started another build thread for my second attempt...

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/31779-Del-Stator-RS6-Build-Thread-V-2-0

[RS8]

In this video, watch closely to the reflection on the air box being pulled in by suction.

http://youtu.be/R4qBs80_0fU

It would be interesting to see if it happens even if they take away the oem intake air ducts.

Does anyone have a Dyno to test on?

[s8prtotype]

I wonder if the airbox does that as bad when air is flowing into it more on the street?

[ColoradoRS]

This is my Fluid Motor Union intake. Some don't agree with the design but I think it is pretty good. My only concern is that you can't get bigger MAFs in here without basically completely rebuilding the box and tubing. Not something I am opposed to but I want to explore other options as well.

Although the more I look at this I am thinking about building a box that is of a rounded designed for the plenum and bigger tubing to the air element boxes.

I will ask Lee Schwartz of Flow Tech if he knows where to send this for more development.

15750

http://us.bmcairfilters.com/

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/26709-RS6-Fluid-MotorUnion-Intake-System?highlight=

I spoke to Mike Marano and this was his response about HP numbers and the design.

"We were never able to confirm HP/Torque numbers on the dyno as our car was highly modified so there was no real comparison. That being said, everyone that was running 1/4 mile times, dyno's, etc. confirmed the results! Hope you did as well! Hard to tell in a powerful TT V8 sedan!!!!!

In regards to the design, we put a few different designs into consideration and what you see showed the best results in regards to flow, etc. I think we would have liked it to be a little bit different but as you know, there isn't a ton of space in there!

Keeping that in mind, we wanted to incorporate the dual velocity stack setup inside that little plenum in order to better help with flow. We've seen in the past that any type of turn hinders performance so we try to avoid them at all times!

Let me know if that answers your questions! If you have any others please feel free to send them over.

Talk Soon,
Mike"


The FMU intake takes care of the open element Apikol design. If the metal parts are coating for heat repulsion it could make a nice setup. I have the rather ugly MTM hood vents so I am not too concerned with heat. I still don't know if I can make myself use them. But I won't be cutting my stock hood...


That looks like a great option! Thanks for the input! How much are you guys selling that intake for and do you think it will flow enough air to reach 800-1000hp?

[ColoradoRS]

So after talking with a few people that I show a ton of respect for, I've decided that once I get my Rs6 torn apart I'm going to start with a little bit more mild solution to start things off. I want to see what the results of the stock block and head are with only reinforced rods. I'm going to see what type of numbers we get with the turbo's I'm going to use on lower boost levels. I have a feeling that the results are going to be pretty impressive but I don't want to start off with this build going wild. I want to put good numbers to the ground but I don't want to have this kit take years of development before I release it. I think that a mild mannered tune and the components that I'm going to put together will net some numbers that will keep everyone happy (for the meantime that is) and leave plenty of room to grow. I've been thinking a LOT about cooling for the car. I've got a few original ideas but I don't know what it will take to turn them into a reality. We'll see....

[Del Stator]

That looks like a great option! Thanks for the input! How much are you guys selling that intake for and do you think it will flow enough air to reach 800-1000hp?

I don't sell the kit. I posted Mike's response to my email. http://www.fluidmotorunion.com/ I don't even know if they still offer the kit for sale. It was around 1300.00 or something. I paid about 1000.00 for it used.

You can talk to Mike Marano of FMU. He seemed very enthusiastic about discussing such things. He also seems open to sharing why he did things the way he did. It was an effort in compromises that were never verified with dyno numbers.

I have no idea if it would flow enough for 1000hp. I know that it uses stock MAF size and that is a limiting factor. It would take a pretty major redesign to get it to work with larger MAFs.

[RS8]

The Apikol design will probably work for 1000hp because it have an open filter, So it sucks air both from the oem silver air inducts and after them.
The problem is that it will suck all hot air you have in the engine compartment. :doh:

[mrdave]

Thinking outside the box here... what about a (tastefully done) hood scoop? It seems like the stock airbox could be modified fairly easily to accommodate one. You wouldn't have to worry about the restrictive intake pipes nor hot air.

15776 15777 15778

[s8prtotype]

Is there a way to put a mafless/map tune on these cars? or has anyone even tried that yet?

[ColoradoRS]

Thinking outside the box here... what about a (tastefully done) hood scoop? It seems like the stock airbox could be modified fairly easily to accommodate one. You wouldn't have to worry about the restrictive intake pipes nor hot air.

15776 15777 15778


I'm kind of thinking the same thing. I'm not a big fan of sucking in 150 degree air (or whatever the under hood temp is). I'll see what I can design once I figure out the positioning of the turbos. My uncle is a sheet metal fabricator and can build me anything needed. I'd imagine that it won't cost a ton to get the metal coated once the box is made. Whether a scoop is added or just slits cut I'd imagine we'll be able to flow enough air for any HP goal we set. There's a few concerns I have with doing this setup but they won't be hard to address. Depending on if I can find a shop that can do good consistant bends or not I may have AR design make all the downpipes for the kits. My thoughts are that if the S4 guys are pulling out 600whp on blocks that have only had rods and pistons put in, 800HP with an extra 1.2-1.5 liters of displacement shouldnt be a problem at all. Tuning choices are either going to be SRM, EPL or Eurodyne. Maybe even a conglomeration of two of them. I haven't seen anyone that has really pushed these engines so we're going to be breaking fresh ground while doing this build. As I stated, I'm not going to throw in new pistons right away because I want to see how the stock ones do because as we all know, finding a shop that can hone an alusil block can be kind of hard. If anyone has anything that theyd like to see for this build just give me a shout and I'll see what I can do.

[RS8]

Why not look at all the old five-cylinder 2.2 liter Audi, with only forged connecting rods they drive with over 800 hp with oem pistons.
800/5 = 160 hp
160 x 8 = 1280 hp
And RS6 has better coned race piston pins, so I am confident that stock RS6 pistons easily holds for over 1000 hp.


"Milka" is using a stock unopened RS6 engine, but I don't know how much power he is up to yet with his Twin GTX3071 Turbos!?
http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/26650-Milka-Build-thread

[s8prtotype]

He posted dyno's in the other forum he is on, it has way more updates than the one here, he is the one that went to the carbon clutch as well.

[Del Stator]

Thinking outside the box here... what about a (tastefully done) hood scoop? It seems like the stock airbox could be modified fairly easily to accommodate one. You wouldn't have to worry about the restrictive intake pipes nor hot air.

15776 15777 15778

I think the actual designing of an air box with hood scoop isn't that complicated. But my first question is how do you keep rain water out. Is the scoop functional on the hood of the above pictured RS4? Kind of STI looking but I dig that aggressive style.

I have the MTM hood vents (not installed yet) and definitely not tasteful, but they are designed to pull air out.

The Champion Racing RS6 air box and hood combination look as though there is some sort of second lower skin under the outer hood skin. Maybe the vents feed into the gap between the upper and lower skin of the hood. Then the air box gasket smashes against the bottom of the hood. We were looking into something like this on my RX7 but the air intake wasn't coming from above the hood. It was mainly to expose the six ITBs when you popped the hood. Going Whipple now so that is no longer relevant.

I don't know if the Champion design is for extended use in rain. Applying a second skin doesn't seem to hard in theory but without my hood here I don't know just how complicated that could become. Certainly not a simple modification but in the end not a necessary one either. I think that modifying the stock box or some version of the FMU would be best. Definitely need to find out how much the stock CAI tubing is a restriction...or if it even is.

The RS6 engine shot is the car using the slate hood vents. I don't really know what they did with the later vent that some have done to their own hoods on this site.

[Del Stator]

I think I will call Terry Griffin over at Griffin Motorwerke. He had a new Mustang dyno installed a few months back. I am going to ask him to run his basically stock RS6. It probably has a tune but not much more. Have him run it, then pull the intake tubing off and run it again and see what the difference is.

I know this isn't going to be as useful a test as on an engine putting out 800+hp but it a start.

I also want to get someone that has an air flow bench to connect the intake tubing and see what kind of CFMs are getting through this thing. I am sure Audi put some thought into the design. It might not be as restrictive as just looking at it appears.

If you're not testing, you're just guessing!!! ;)

[mrdave]

But my first question is how do you keep rain water out.

You'd have to rig up some way to block/filter incoming water and drain it off. Couldn't find a good picture but this crappy one give you a rough idea.

15792


Is the scoop functional on the hood of the above pictured RS4?

It's functional in that it lets cool air into the engine bay but it doesn't appear to be sealed to the airbox like on those Champion cars.

15791

As a side note, that RS4 has a C5 RS6 engine swapped in! http://www.iamaudi.com/audi-b5-rs4-an-incredible-project/

[DHall1]

That ^^ is where the turbos need to be mounted.

[ColoradoRS]

You guys are on the right path. What I was thinking was that the we'll cut slits in the hood or put a scoop then put a secondary piece of metal right beneath the slits that allows rain water to still drip into the box but keeps the filters dry. Then I'll have to hook up some sort of drainage system for the air box. The thing I'm worried about is being able to drain enough water quick enough. At 80-100 mph, A LOT of water is going to be coming in very quickly. I also figured out what I'm going to do for heat dispersion. I'd love to share my idea with you guys but I don't want another company to steal my idea. It's something that I've never seen before but I'm pretty sure that it's going to work amazingly well! As far as putting pistons in goes, the thing we'll have to worry about is that the compression on the rs6 motor is kind of high. We'll just have to wait and see what boost can be run on the stock compression. I'm going to talk with one of my tuners and see what they think before I start pulling everything apart for the build. A meth kit may come in pretty handy. Is milka running gtx series turbos? I thought he was running just the gt series turbos? The gtx series is what I had planned on running with my kits. After plotting points on the compressor maps of those turbos, the spool on them is going to be amazing! I don't think it's going to be hard at all to hit 1000hp with them. I had plotted the points on the compressor maps with the goal of 1000hp and they should be able to do it without a single problem. 800hp should be a breeze and hopefully not put too much stress on the block. If you've ever seen what underground racing does with the lamborghini's you'd have the same feeling as me that 1000hp out of our engine's shouldn't be too tough. Not to mention that AMS pulled 2000 hp out of their skyline with only 3.8 liters of displacement. Ya, I know that both those companies have a ton of R&D into those cars but I feel that our cars have a ton of untapped potential and it's time that we uncork it!

[G2]

Good info on the cams and valves. Answer some questions of mine for some time. RS8: I'd assume bigger valve seats are also installed? Nothing was mentioned that I saw.

General-
On a basic engineering level would seem to me that some math would help solve the relationship between increased valve lift/duration vs bigger valves with stock cams. Or just throw the kitchen sink at it and do both. Let the dyno tell the story?
I'm of the opinion that bigger cams will drastically help w/o the need for bigger valves (can't say for 1000hp; anything helps at that level) And prior experience at least for other street driven cars.

IAT:
Between my car and a customer/friend's with Wagner IC's there barely any difference. Both are 25-30F more than Ambient temp. This is was measured on a 16 miles highway stretch at 70-75 MPH cruising speed. Awhile back I posted info about modifying the undertray IC exhaust ducting (or at least did on Audi RS6 Facebook page). I'd assume the bigger IC's would prove more effective at higher engine loads-- but not as a starting point (meaning IAT is not improved and any heatsoak will take time to reduce, if that's even possible with the turbo's on heavy boost increasing IAT at the same time). Getting the heat out and helping air flow proves to be equally important. Any town/city driving just fully heat soaks the engine and intake plumbing. Water meth injection is surely a necessity (LSWING has the most experience on this forum it seems) and I will follow suit this year. I promise...

Intake air Trumpets:
I have viewed the air scoops with sceptism in terms of flow. Years ago (uh, decades) I used to build custom windsurf boards. Lots of foam and fiberglass working. It's been on my mind to make a high flow air hornset. It's obvious VAG drastically "undercut" the backside to accommodate for engine movement. There's far more room than needed. Like the video sorta shows the upper plenum cover flexes inward. Not sure if anyone has noticed how stiff the carbon is? Says a lot. During the winter I tried running w/o the scoops and the IAT wasn't much more, but the plenum box and filters quickly became dirty.

Hood Scoop:
This will likely have the largest advantage using the OEM intake system. I'd expect filters to be the next issue. Personally I view the air filters as far too small to reasonably flow 250+hp each. My motor bike has a filters that size for 90hp.

Just some thoughts. Happy New Year.

[Del Stator]

How does a WRX STI with a functional hood scoop deal with water? Anybody got pictures?

[mrdave]

How does a WRX STI with a functional hood scoop deal with water? Anybody got pictures?

It flows air over the intercooler so water is not as much of a concern. Air intake is located elsewhere.

15809

[ColoradoRS]

Ya, there's no concern with sucking up any air with the subaru's since the hood scoop is for cooling the intercooler that sits on top of the engine. The Water that gets sucked up into a subaru goes through the intercooler, onto the engine then onto the ground. I'll have to make a similar invention that allows the water to drain onto the ground without getting sucked up.

[Aronis]

I got through the third page of this thread and just starting shaking my head.

You guys are sounding like the Subaru WRX STI forum.

All that Rebuilding on a 11 year old car is asking for more trouble than it is worth. You need to rebuild the suspension, all links and arms, rebuild the differentials and replace all the drive shafts, bearing, etc, etc, if you want to pour that kind of power into the 11 year old car and actually drive it at all. I know it's a fun project but get real.

And all the aging other parts on the engine that can go. Do you plan on completely rebuilding the motor with all the electronics replaced? All the tubing and wiring, etc.?

Sounds like starting with a newer car, like an S6 4.0 T, with a few miles on the clock and modifying that would be a more reasonable route to big power AND a drivable car.

Keeping a 11 year old car like the RS6 just running is a good project. It's got plenty of power as is. Just fix the warts. The DRC, check, the TCU, check, Torque Converter, check, etc....

Just my 2 cents.

[s8prtotype]

Just because the car is older doesn't mean people can't advance the platform..... if that was the case hotrods wouldn't exist with an entire new updated system under the skin. Boys will be boys ;)

[Turbowned]

Eww, why did they put a WRX hood scoop on an RS4? Gross. I don't care if it's functional; that's just WRONG lol. Like those clowns that used to put Chevy SS style cowl induction hoods on everything under the sun.

[Aronis]

Just because the car is older doesn't mean people can't advance the platform..... if that was the case hotrods wouldn't exist with an entire new updated system under the skin. Boys will be boys ;)


Interesting take.

Mike

[DHall1]

Hang on....checking ebay for my new STI scoops.

I need to go fire up some fresh popcorn.

[RS8]

I got through the third page of this thread and just starting shaking my head.

All that Rebuilding on a 11 year old car is asking for more trouble than it is worth. You need to rebuild the suspension, all links and arms, rebuild the differentials and replace all the drive shafts, bearing, etc, etc, if you want to pour that kind of power into the 11 year old car and actually drive it at all. I know it's a fun project but get real.
And all the aging other parts on the engine that can go. Do you plan on completely rebuilding the motor with all the electronics replaced? All the tubing and wiring, etc.?

Sounds like starting with a newer car, like an S6 4.0 T, with a few miles on the clock and modifying that would be a more reasonable route to big power AND a drivable car.

Keeping a 11 year old car like the RS6 just running is a good project. It's got plenty of power as is. Just fix the warts. The DRC, check, the TCU, check, Torque Converter, check, etc....
Just my 2 cents.

Your post shows that you do not know much about cars.

Why do we need to change all these parts? If you have a good working car that you take care of then you have already changed all wear parts as the suspension, link arms and everything else.
Or do you drive around with a scrap RS6 car that all parts is 11 years old ?

And why do we need to change drive shafts, bearings, differentials just because we want 1000 hp?
all depends on what you are going to use the car to, Do you plan to run drag racing or track racing, you should rebuild the car for this whether you have 600 hp or 1000 hp, but if you only want a fast car on the street so there is no need to rebuild everything.

And why should we replace all this: "electronics, all the tubing and wiring"? it is not a 50 year old car or a water damaged or burned car we want to build on.


And why would it be cheaper with a newer S6 4.0T to get over 1000 hp ?
Just purchase of the car cost more than an RS6 + 1000hp parts will cost.
And you probably need to replace as many parts of S6 4.0T, as on an RS6 if you want to have over 1000 hp


My "S8/RS8" car is from 1997 so it is a 18 years old car! and I use it for track racing, So I have custom built KW competition coil-overs, 034 adjustable control arms, rear lsd and put on RS6 brakes and a modified RS6 engine to my manual gearbox.
And it has cost more to build than what a standard RS6 car cost, but I think it is worth it and now I have a car that no one else has, And it's really fun to chase expensive sports cars on the racetrack with my big S8 :incar:

Imagine the same thing but that you stop at the red light next to a Ferrari/Lambo with your old RS6 but with 1000 hp :revs:

[Bigglezworth]

In order to push 4 digit power values, you will always require more than just a few bolt on goodies and a tune. I've been a Buick nut for years and have a high powered 4.1L Buick Stage II in my 87 GNX. It's heavily modified and doesn't surpass 1000hp. The engines in the attached photos are also 4.1L engines, and DO push more than 1000hp (in fact both push more than 1500hp...) and each engine in complete running format cost in excess of 60K ea to build....

Personally, if you are drag racing a car - then it makes sense to have this much $$ in a motor/tranny/drivetrain set-up. Hell, even if you were looking to win the Texas mile it would make sense. It doesn't make sense to me to do it in a luxury four door sedan that you drive your family around in. Be happy that we can extract 600hp +/- depending on bolt-on parts and a tune and be done with it. Anything more is suited for a race specific car IMO.

158871588815889

[Turbowned]

I got through the third page of this thread and just starting shaking my head.

You guys are sounding like the Subaru WRX STI forum.

All that Rebuilding on a 11 year old car is asking for more trouble than it is worth. You need to rebuild the suspension, all links and arms, rebuild the differentials and replace all the drive shafts, bearing, etc, etc, if you want to pour that kind of power into the 11 year old car and actually drive it at all. I know it's a fun project but get real.

And all the aging other parts on the engine that can go. Do you plan on completely rebuilding the motor with all the electronics replaced? All the tubing and wiring, etc.?

Sounds like starting with a newer car, like an S6 4.0 T, with a few miles on the clock and modifying that would be a more reasonable route to big power AND a drivable car.

Keeping a 11 year old car like the RS6 just running is a good project. It's got plenty of power as is. Just fix the warts. The DRC, check, the TCU, check, Torque Converter, check, etc....

Just my 2 cents.

We call this "resto-modding." Fixing up an aging car while at the same time enhancing its performance so that it exceeds factory specifications to bring it more in line with modern car standards. The RS6 would be pricey to build to 1000hp (no doubt) but at least the car is solid and most of the drivetrain components can handle the power (except for that slushbox of course). The suspension could use tweaking and the brakes could use a rotor and pad upgrade but they should still be up to the task. When I had my Datsun 240Z I wanted to build it to 600hp. Found out that "hey great, the L28ET from the 280ZX Turbo bolts right in and with pistons/rods and a big turbo and fuel you can make 600hp". BUT, you literally have to replace everything in the drivetrain, heavily upgrade the suspension and brakes, and reinforce the chassis so that it doesn't implode if you give it some gas. The RS6 isn't a chintzy tin can like that 240Z was, or like so many cars we see out there making big power numbers.

This made me look up a 600hp 240Z for kicks... I still would love to build one, but for $80,000? Ouch.
http://www.carpictures.com/vehicle/12LE9412420563/Datsun-240Z-with-600hp-1971

[hahnmgh63]

I think I'm somewhat with Aronis on this. If your talking about this kind of power then everything will need upgrading. The driveline & Diffs are basic Audi material that were very stout but with the RS6 were already dropped into a vehicle with a lot more power/Tq than the car they were designed for to include the Euro D2 HP24 tranny as we all know. With that kind of power your going to fail the driveline, tranny, Diffs, and the axles/CV's. All of the bearings will be put on increased stress as well as Motormounts. It can be done but it is a lot more than just the engine/tranny as you are talking about more than doubling the power output.

[Turbowned]

At the very least the chassis is up to the task. Look at this MR2 which originally came with 112bhp, now making 527whp. Can you imagine how the chassis and stock brakes would react to this increase? This guy never did anything other than dumping a bigger engine, trans and axles into the car. All on 225-width tires (that's the widest that will fit without cutting the wheel arches and adding fender flares).

Scary!


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/oM3NEaXkzrA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

[lswing]

We have broke new ground...comparing an MR2 to an RS6, oh my:)

I'd have to agree that most of the power transferring parts will need to be replaced or upgraded. This is some serious $$ for a family 4 door dragster. I would also question general drivability as more power equals harsher shifting amongst many things. The engine bay space and costs of upgrading and replacing parts just seems a bit unreasonable for this application, but each to their own!

[Del Stator]

I will be upgrading the transmission (6MT) and the diffs. But as far as axles I want them to be the inline fuse. I would rather replace an axle than whatever would start breaking if you had bulletproof axles. But I am not actually shooting for 1000hp nor will I be drag racing.

[Bigglezworth]

We call this "resto-modding." Fixing up an aging car while at the same time enhancing its performance so that it exceeds factory specifications to bring it more in line with modern car standards.Come on man. The RS6 isn't a 40 year old classic muscle car. It's a modern performance sedan. You're way over exaggerating the use of the term to apply it here.

[RS8]

You will of course need a manual transmission, but for only street use I don't see any reason to upgrading diff or driveshafts?


But If you want to drive drag race, well then it doesn't cost so much for custom made drive shaft and LSD diff for RS6
I already have a real Limited Slip Differential gear with lamella (plate type) in the rear, that one costs about 1200 €
And if I need I can get custom made flexible-twistable racing driveshafts for about 230 € / each.

But is not this thread just about what we need to modify on the engine and not the rest of the car?

[ColoradoRS]

I've got an awesome update for everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was just talking to Sean over at SRM. He's designing a turbo that will fit in the RS6 whether you've got a manual or automatic transmission. Early guesstimates for the amount of WHP that these turbos will be capable of is in the 850whp range. It's a few months out but it will be out way before my kit is ready.

[ColoradoRS]

oh, and also, He said he's got downpipes in the works. They will be by FAR cheaper than any other downpipe on the market too!

[ColoradoRS]

Just caught up on all the new thread comments.... What do these old 'Muscle car" guys think our audi's are? Dodge neons??? LOL If you want to say, "Why would you modify something", stay in your lazy boy eating your cheese puffs!!!! You don't belong on this thread! We build cars because it's fun to! We build cars because we always like to go FASTER!! We build cars to make your girlfriend give us her number after she sees what a REAL street car can do!!! Building cars takes time, commitment and lots of money! If you can't understand why we do this, you're not one of us!

[s8prtotype]

oh, and also, He said he's got downpipes in the works. They will be by FAR cheaper than any other downpipe on the market too!

It was mentioned in the other thread that they could be done for $400

Need them yesterday.

[ColoradoRS]

It was mentioned in the other thread that they could be done for $400

Need them yesterday.


Yep, They should be ready any day now. Sean has sent rs6 downpipes into the maker of SSAC components and is just waiting to receive some back. They'll probably cost even less than 400

[ColoradoRS]

Yep, They should be ready any day now. Sean has sent rs6 downpipes into the maker of SSAC components and is just waiting to receive some back. They'll probably cost even less than 400

If you want me to update you when they're available, Let me know. I talk with sean a few times a week so I'm more than happy to keep everyone posted to the progress.

[lswing]

Just caught up on all the new thread comments.... What do these old 'Muscle car" guys think our audi's are? Dodge neons??? LOL If you want to say, "Why would you modify something", stay in your lazy boy eating your cheese puffs!!!! You don't belong on this thread! We build cars because it's fun to! We build cars because we always like to go FASTER!! We build cars to make your girlfriend give us her number after she sees what a REAL street car can do!!! Building cars takes time, commitment and lots of money! If you can't understand why we do this, you're not one of us!

Fast and Furious brah!!!...you gonna put flames and a spoiler on?:addict:

I think the points were more about this being an expensive choice for heavy modding, with both cost and space limitations. If you've got the money, skill, and time I'm sure it will be fun. Amazing and unique car all around with wide body and great interior.

Looking forward to to more info about the build and parts!

[s8prtotype]

Yep, They should be ready any day now. Sean has sent rs6 downpipes into the maker of SSAC components and is just waiting to receive some back. They'll probably cost even less than 400

3" for auto cars?

Funny because i sent them an email and they never responded haha.

Let me know!

[ColoradoRS]

3" for auto cars?

Funny because i sent them an email and they never responded haha.

Let me know!

I'm not sure of the diameter that they're going to be but I'm sure that they'll be as big as possible. Sean is a VERY busy guy so I don't doubt that he hasn't got back to you. I'll just post up on here when they become available.

[Fastguy]

any outcome on the parts of this thread? Turbos?

[ColoradoRS]

Being that SRM came out with turbos that fit the rs6 I'm going to be trying those out shortly. Just placed an order for their twin fuel pump setup and intercoolers. Turbos and manual tranny swap will be coming shortly. I want to see how far I can push the stock internals. Once i find out where the rods are starting to bend i'm going to throw in some new rods and pistons and see what HP I can get out of SRM's turbos. The turbo's from SRM are now available so if anyone wants a pair just hit up Sean and he'll get some coming for you. If I'm not satisfied with the HP I get from SRM's turbo's I will still be building a kit from scratch. I need to find out the limits of the rs6 v8 first being that no one has really pushed this platform.

[ColoradoRS]

Fast and Furious brah!!!...you gonna put flames and a spoiler on?:addict:

I think the points were more about this being an expensive choice for heavy modding, with both cost and space limitations. If you've got the money, skill, and time I'm sure it will be fun. Amazing and unique car all around with wide body and great interior.

Looking forward to to more info about the build and parts!


LOL You know I'm joking on that shit right? But in honesty I hate it when people ask "why"..... Building cars isn't for everyone but for those of us that do it, we love it and it's our passion.

[s8prtotype]

Those turbo's need 3" downpipes ahem.... ;)

[lswing]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/60213608.jpg

[RS8]

Are these the turbos you are talking about?
http://sillyrabbitmotorsport.com/rs6-billet-turbo


They have the same exhaust house and impeller as standard which is worthless, your exhaust back pressure is more than twice as high as the charge pressure already after 5000 rpm with this exhaust house.

Do not buy these!



I have measured exhaust back pressure in my stock manifold with stock RS6 turbos, here you have first with low boost and then with high boost, look at that high backpressure !?



<tbody>
RPM
Turbo Boost
Backpressure



bar
bar


2200
0,31
0,32


2500
0,41
0,39


3000
0,48
0,45


3500
0,50
0,53


4000
0,52
0,63


4500
0,54
0,75


5000
0,53
0,92


5500
0,55
1,00


6000
0,57
1,08


6500
0,60 = 8,7psi
1,05 = 15,2psi













High boost



2000
0,27
0,28


2500
0,50
0,57


2900
0,81
0,90


4500
1,11
1,61


5000
1,15
2,06


5500
1,11
2,16


6000
1,11
2,20


6500
1,15
2,16


7000
1,28 = 18psi
2,19 = 32psi











</tbody>

[RS8]

Now I have custom built exhaust manifolds and upgraded RS6 turbos with 16psi actuators,
But I have almost 40psi in backpressure when I have 21psi turbo boost.

All these bolt-on trim turbos for RS6 gives you a lot more torque but very little horsepower because of the small hot side that only creates a lot of backpressure and heat.

[Bigglezworth]

Now I have custom built exhaust manifolds and upgraded RS6 turbos with 16psi actuators,
But I have almost 40psi in backpressure when I have 21psi turbo boost.

All these bolt-on trim turbos for RS6 gives you a lot more torque but very little horsepower because of the small hot side that only creates a lot of backpressure and heat.

+1 The last statement is exactly why any member that has had one (or more) of these rides for a few years just likes to sit back and watch as new owners think they are going to create a new monster to fit inside the C5 chassis. How many threads have there been over the years now where a new owner with knowledge and $ tell us all they are going to modify the powerplant to create all this extra power, and those threads all die off and we never hear the end result. We all know why that is....

Confines - not technology or knowledge. Space is the limiting factor and unless you are reinventing (and yes I mean that term quite literally), the configuration of all exhaust, intake, intercooling, electrical, etc., you are never going to get yourself past a nominal 600-650hp on these cars.

Yes, the 4.2 40V can make more (as proven with the Gumpert Appolo), but that is a different chassis that doesn't have the space confines of the C5.

[4everRS]

^ what he said

[lswing]

^^^Yep, it's been hashed many times, and a few people (Stephen?) have dumped in a lot of money only to get moderate results for the $. The Gumpert is an excellent example of the engines potential in the right location.

I just want to know...when will this car be for sale? Old joke as these seem to get sold after the manual swap and upgrades....

[RS8]

Okay there is limited space but you can mount bigger turbos just look at "Milka" he has two GTX3071s in his RS6

What I meant was that if one is to build new race turbos for the RS6 you can not use the K04 because the biggest exhaust housing for K04 already sitting on the RS6.

Modified K04 trim turbos works well on a small V6 biturbo on 2.7L, but not at 4.2L!


I do not know how much power you can get with the unmodified standard turbos but I guess a maximum of 580 hp?

Loba claim that their race turbos will provide 650 hp, but "Amanda" only got just over 600 hp and she also has Loba's camshafts.
And I know no one who received more than 680 hp on race K04 turbos and that include a lot of other modifications on the engine, that is only 100 hp more than the standard turbos which means 50 hp per turbocharger and the people pay lots of $$$$$$$ for it ???



If you want to have this much power you have to start from a completely different turbo.
EFR6758 would be perfect.

But you can also start from a K24 from Porsche or MB AMG or Volvo S60R.

Or a Mitsubishi turbo if you want 7-800 hp



So do not buy a SRM or Loba K04 turbos for RS6 because the extra hp you get is not worth the money.

[G2]

RS8, while it's been a bit of an Odyssey finding out what works and doesn't, wondering if you wouldn't mind discussing some of the valve train particulars?

1- Cams. Where the S6/S8 cams intentionally avoided? And exhaust cams?
2- Valvetrain. Any changes to the springs or retainers?

Any comments on your process and steps taken to check/verify fitment, concerns, and intended result(s) would be very interesting.

[RS8]

S6,A8,S8 exhaust cams is the same as RS6, instead S6,A8,S8 have bigger exhaust valves.

But intake cams is better on A8,S6 and best on S8, but I would change valves also to stonger ones if I would be using S8 intake cams to be sure it will hold with the much higher lift S8 cams have.

I have now A8 intake cams in my RS6 engine.

springs differ slightly in hardness, but I do not know which ones are the hardest.

[Turbowned]

Are there any upgrded K04's worth buying, in anyone's opinion? I'm one of those guys who hoped for 800bhp+ on aftermarket turbos but quickly found out that the work and expense required (6MT swap, custom manifolds, etc.) was outside of my sensible budget. I could "settle" for 600bhp if it involved upgraded K04's, full exhaust, Wagner IC's, upgraded fueling and water/meth injection on 93AKI fuel. That's still roughly an $8-10,000 budget in parts alone.

[Bigglezworth]

I do not know how much power you can get with the unmodified standard turbos but I guess a maximum of 580 hp?

Loba claim that their race turbos will provide 650 hp, but "Amanda" only got just over 600 hp and she also has Loba's camshafts.
And I know no one who received more than 680 hp on race K04 turbos and that include a lot of other modifications on the engine, that is only 100 hp more than the standard turbos which means 50 hp per turbocharger and the people pay lots of $$$$$$$ for it ??Spot on. I have pushed an OEM spec RS6 with OEM K04's down the 1/4 in 11.7 with nothing other than an different fuel pump, gutted DP's, and a tune.... The KO4's are maxed out for flow at this level and no matter what you do for head work, cams, intercoolers, exhaust, etc., you simply can't push any more through the KO4's. Engine can handle more power, but not well supported with the C5 A6 chassis unfortunately. Lots of better cars to inject your hard earned $$ in IMO with significantly different results than this 'family sedan'....

[wes]

remote turbo's be a solution?

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c6-forced-induction-nitrous/3058730-twin-oil-less-rear-mount-ls3-by-unleashed.html

[4everRS]

remote turbo's be a solution?

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c6-forced-induction-nitrous/3058730-twin-oil-less-rear-mount-ls3-by-unleashed.html
http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab210/crocodile64/ED7AE1DF-C0AC-4110-B6E9-CD6441424284.jpg (http://s864.photobucket.com/user/crocodile64/media/ED7AE1DF-C0AC-4110-B6E9-CD6441424284.jpg.html)

Turbo lag on these kits is notoriously horrible.

[Turbowned]

Someone in New Hampshire did that with an LS1-swapped RS6; not sure if it was ever documented on here. I sure as hell wouldn't run a remote-mount turbo. Too much plumbing and lag. Fine for a drag car I suppose, but not my cup of tea.

[Greyyork]

Although I agree with a lot of people doing "builds" and never finishing them, I think the money is well spent. I've dropped probably 15-20k total in the car (not all performance) and I got it up to 600 HP. Well worth it IMO, but i'm a hypocrite. I'm pretty sure I'm going to sell it, although I hate the idea of selling it. BUT it's only to buy a new RS6. I absolutely love the car and I've driven a lot and I mean A LOT of high end/ super cars. By far my favorite car to drive...ever. Let the hate responses begin lol.

[wes]

proper setup VNT turbo with a ball bearing in it would spool up quicker than you may think, has anyone actually tried it?

[lswing]

proper setup VNT turbo with a ball bearing in it would spool up quicker than you may think, has anyone actually tried it?

I cannot image how horrible the lag would be with a setup like this. I noticed a bit of lag when going to a bigger IC, just that small amount of volume. Even adding just a few inches of piping that needs to be pressurized would add lag, adding feet seems pointless.

[wes]

maybe having a RS6 Engine is pointless then too, because the same aforementioned conversion has been done on countless other vehicles with little mention of lag.

[lswing]

maybe having a RS6 Engine is pointless then too, because the same aforementioned conversion has been done on countless other vehicles with little mention of lag.

You do realize you just went from the idea of lag being created by more piping to complete absurdity with your statement about the engine. I'm sure it could be done, anything can, give it a try; but looking into any turbo car, the greater amount of piping/volume will create more lag. Numbers on a dyno are completely different from how those get applied to the street and general driveability (not a word but I think it should be).

Now, speaking of external turbos, have you seen the 2000+ HP Vette with the gigantic turbos sticking out of the hood? Driver can barely keep it on the road. Another example of anything is possible, sure it can be done, but does it really need to be.

[wes]

I don't foresee any modern tech engines struggle with lag, not to mention a 4.2l V8 in the mix, especially on a VNT that is correctly set up.

[RS8]

My friend has an Audi A8-95 with the 4.2L V8 which he mounted a turbo in the trunk.


It doesn't work any good, because he must get up high temperature in the exhaust system before he gets any boost,
so when he runs circuit racing, it takes two laps before he has boost,
And on the street it is not so fun at all to have to drive hard for a couple of minutes before you get any boost.




And then you have a problem to fit pressure pipe all the way to the engine, Where do you have any room for that underneath an RS6?
And suck air in to the turbo underneath your car is no good = a lot of dirt and hot air, so he now let the air filter suck the air in the trunk.
Then you also must have an oil pump which sucks the oil from turbo back into the engine, And oil hoses back and forth.


So mount a turbo in the rear of the RS6 is just stupid!


There are big turbos that fits behind the engine if you have a manual transmission, so why would anyone want to mount turbos on other places than in the engine compartment on RS6?

[G2]

Not surprised.....one bit.

Been seeing a lot of this on other forums. Some cars seem to pull it off. Mostly the large displacement V8's. Seems they have the CFM to overcome the lack of heat velocity normally needed by a turbo.

When easy and cheap are the MO, the creativity trying to get around proper engineering can be entertaining, if nothing else.

[GreggPDX]

Not surprised.....one bit.

Been seeing a lot of this on other forums. Some cars seem to pull it off. Mostly the large displacement V8's. Seems they have the CFM to overcome the lack of heat velocity normally needed by a turbo.

When easy and cheap are the MO, the creativity trying to get around proper engineering can be entertaining, if nothing else.

Saw these setup on some GTO's back when I had an 04. They worked OK with the big LS1 or LS2 motors, but still a lot of lag. It was fun watching them at the drags while they rushed to stage first so they could start trying to spool the turbo before the tree started.