Transmission fluid/issues..?

[P1054]

What kind of transmission fluid does everyone use? I just changed my fluid, along with the filter and gaskets.. I used Schaefer SAT204 as recommended by Tozo to Justin9212 (in the trans fluid change thread under the DIY section). I followed V8Weight's DIY and everything seemed to work out fine. However, when I went to actually drive the car, I noticed a few issues. It shifted fine to start out, but when I gave it a little more throttle, enough to make it shift at about 3500 RPM, I could hear a 'whining' noise coming from the TC. Then, when I gave it more throttle, enough to hit about 10psi, the TC just started slipping. I tested it a couple more times, and about half the time it would slip bad. I thought that maybe I didn't fully fill the transmission somehow so I checked the level and it was dead on at 35 degrees C. So, I guess I'm curious what the problem could be. Is there a trick to making sure the TC gets filled beyond what the DIY says? I drained it pretty thoroughly, let it drain overnight. Or could it be the fluid? I'm considering re-draining and -filling, this time with the Audi OEM fluid. Or, worst case, could it just be that the TC is toast? And if so, could that have been caused by the fluid change?

For the record, I have a late VIN (see sig).

[DHall1]

You have messed up the job.

Go back in and inspect the filter, oring, filter mounting.

[lswing]

It's not the draining, it's the fill that's a bitch. Make sure your temp is right with VAG, pump more fluid in until it pours out. I've learned after a few trans that a refill and check a week after filling is crucial...

I have the Audi Manual for the process, will try and post it. Be careful, for your $$...

[lswing]

You have messed up the job.

Go back in and inspect the filter, oring, filter mounting.

Or as Dave said something isn't installed right, easy to capture the fluid and redo the job. No need to break a $7k piece.

[hahnmgh63]

Also, there are different filter pickup lengths. You need to measure to the depth of you pan and may need to trim the filter, it may be too tight to the bottom of the pan. Probably about a 1/4" would be enough trimmed.

[P1054]

Okay thanks for the suggestions! I'll drain it tomorrow, catch the fluid, pull off the pan, and inspect and measure the filter. Then refill per the directions and hopefully that solves the problem. I did monitor the temp the first time with VagCOM and had it just overflowing at 35 degrees, was that not the right way to do it?

Lswing, if you could post the directions is appreciate it!

[mik15]

after you fill it up, you need to start the car, plug in the vagcom, and then with your foot on the brake, go for a few seconds in each of, P, R, N, D, do this a few times, then leave the engine running with the oil temperature being at between 35 - 40C, can even be 45C, depends on the climate you're in, unplug the fill nut and if nothing pours out pump in some oil until it starts pouring out. Like it has been already said, check the filter's pick up tube and make it has the right length and also that you've installed the seal on the pick up tube of the filter.

if the gearbox was acting alright before the oil change shouldn't negatively be affected by it, unless something was done wrong.

here is the procedure by ZF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si8HXqpgz9A

[hahnmgh63]

Sounds like you filled it properly. For us here in the NW I would definitely have the plug re-installed at 30'C, of course that is with the fluid dripping or running out. I would say the filter is the most likely cause then. When you cut a little off the bottom make sure you chamfer the edges with a file or something as you don't want any of those loose bits falling off after cutting. Driving a small distance with it like that most likely didn't hurt a thing so I think your fine there.

[Brav]

Yes, check the filter. I had to trim mine. Also, still had to refill after one week of driving as well. Should be fine after checking these two things.

[lswing]

1513915140

Here are the two pages, think you can get the whole manual from ZF's website. Be careful not to trim too much off the filter pickup, there are some good threads, think it was 3/8", or 1/4" to be safe. I'd read up on it, or carefully do your own measuring. And OEM filter only!

[lswing]

Same symptoms, more info...

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/23572-transmission-whine-after-trans-oil-change-the-dreaded-torque-converter

[P1054]

Thanks everyone for the great advice! I just finished draining and refilling it and it works like a charm now!

I ended up doing three things differently the second time around: I installed the o-ring on the filter (I completely missed that the first time), trimmed the pickup tube about 1/4" (I measured and it had just under 1/4" clearance already but that seemed a bit tight for such a large diameter tube so I cut it shorter), and replaced the Schaefer fluid with Audi G052162A2. I doubt that the Schaefer fluid caused any of my problems, and I'm sure it's a great fluid, but I figured since I was already re-draining the transmission and getting more of the original fluid out, it wouldn't hurt to refill with completely fresh OEM fluid.

All in all, I'm guessing the only thing that actually caused the issues I had was the missing o-ring.. But whatever it was, I'm good to go for a while now!

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: this forum is a FANTASTIC source for anyone who owns one of these cars!

[mik15]

if you missed the o-ring that was actually the issue because there was a loss of pressure, glad that it all worked out, now you're experienced in changing the tranny fluid :).

How much was the OEM oil at Audi? you can get the same oil from BMW, i noticed is cheaper by quite a lot, for example here at Audi is cca $24/L while at BMW is $15/L...

[P1054]

Good to know. I actually ended up getting it from a VW dealer since the local Audi dealer is closed Saturdays. It cost $22 per liter. Sounds like I'll be looking at BMW next time if there's that big a price difference. It's the same fluid then?

[mik15]

it is the same fluid but of course with a different part number, here is the list for the same fluid used by different car manufacturers:

ZF Lifeguardfluid 5 (ZF No. S671 090 170)
=> Audi / VW Oil No. G 052162 A1 / A2 / A6
=> BMW Oil No. 8322 9407807
=> Citroen Oil No. Z 000169756
=> Jaguar Oil No. JLM 20238
=> Mercedes Benz Oil No. A 0019892203
=> Peugeot Oil No. Z 000169756
=> Porsche Oil No. 999.917.547.00

[TozoM8]

The problem was the missing O-ring. I would never trade the shaeffer's for the vw/audi fluid. Synthetic>mineral.

[DHall1]

Here here chicken dinner. LOL

Glad it all worked out.




You have messed up the job.

Go back in and inspect the filter, oring, filter mounting.

[Bigglezworth]

How much was the OEM oil at Audi? you can get the same oil from BMW, i noticed is cheaper by quite a lot, for example here at Audi is cca $24/L while at BMW is $15/L...The local Audi dealer here in my neck of the woods rapes us for everything Audi. 1L of relabeled ZF tranny fluid sets you back $38.00...... No I'm not making this up....

[4everRS]

The problem was the missing O-ring. I would never trade the shaeffer's for the vw/audi fluid. Synthetic>mineral.

Just for conversations sake, could there potentially be more clutch slip with synthetic than with mineral?

[MaxRS6]

^517 recommends the mineral when I spoke with Sam last June about the fluid. I don't know anything and am just parroting his reply.

[P1054]

Just for conversations sake, could there potentially be more clutch slip with synthetic than with mineral?

Interesting that you bring that up, I had wondered the same thing, and that is one of the reasons I decided to switch back to the OE fluid (besides getting a more complete fluid change).

It turns out that my transmission is not actually back to 100%... I functions great except for one thing: under hard acceleration, the 1st-to-2nd shift is screwy. It pulls hard through 1st, starts to shift normally and bring the RPM's down as it goes into 2nd, and then it's like the TC gives up and the RPM's jump back up to redline and it feels like the car is just coasting for a bit, then the TC starts to grab again and it lurches into 2nd, not super hard but definitely harder than it should. I'm going to check the fluid level later today, but I'm very sure that there's the right amount of fluid in there. I'll report back once I know if the level is my issue..

For the record, it shifts great from 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th, and 4th to 5th under hard throttle.

[lswing]

^^^Sounds like your clutches are slipping with the extra RPM and Torque from 1-2?....with a tune and that many miles it's just a matter of time, might still last a while if not flogged too much.

You can log the TC if you have the software, shows open, working, and lock status. Helpful in diagnosing if that's the case. Either way, if you need to fix a slipping TC you're going to want to rebuild and replace the trans at that point.

[P1054]

Yep, that's what I was thinking too, except that it was still working great before replacing the fluid.. But I suppose like you say it's always just a matter of time. It still drives great under all other conditions so it's not the end of the world for me. I may just start looking into getting some 01E parts..

[Bigglezworth]

It pulls hard through 1st, starts to shift normally and bring the RPM's down as it goes into 2nd, and then it's like the TC gives up and the RPM's jump back up to redline and it feels like the car is just coasting for a bit, then the TC starts to grab again and it lurches into 2ndWhat you describe has nothing to do with the TQ. I encourage you and anyone reading this tread to take a 1/2 hr out of their day and head to YouTube and look up some videos describing the basics of what a TQ does - including what a lock-up convertor does. You will quickly set aside many misconceptions people believe are occuring with their rides as being TQ related concerns.

[905084]

Congrats! I used Valvoline Max Life on my first fill as I didn't want to blow a lot of $ on ZF fluid and find out the trans was toast. 3000 miles of flogging and it is doing fine.

[TozoM8]

Interesting that you bring that up, I had wondered the same thing, and that is one of the reasons I decided to switch back to the OE fluid (besides getting a more complete fluid change).

It turns out that my transmission is not actually back to 100%... I functions great except for one thing: under hard acceleration, the 1st-to-2nd shift is screwy. It pulls hard through 1st, starts to shift normally and bring the RPM's down as it goes into 2nd, and then it's like the TC gives up and the RPM's jump back up to redline and it feels like the car is just coasting for a bit, then the TC starts to grab again and it lurches into 2nd, not super hard but definitely harder than it should. I'm going to check the fluid level later today, but I'm very sure that there's the right amount of fluid in there. I'll report back once I know if the level is my issue..

For the record, it shifts great from 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th, and 4th to 5th under hard throttle.

Like the others said, it is not the TC. If it was the TC, it would do it in higher gears more. One you pass the 1800 stall speed it locks up. Your second gear is going.

[905084]

+1

Got a case of beer that says it happens when it is hot....and if you have it in first, brake on, and run the revs up it will slip, slam, then go to limp mode with an incorrect gear ratio code. Goodbye "A" clutch....

[4everRS]

Randy, did he recommend and specific brand? Or give any other comment on why mineral?


^517 recommends the mineral when I spoke with Sam last June about the fluid. I don't know anything and am just parroting his reply.

[MaxRS6]

^Sam told me to stick with the OEM when I inquired about using other brands. I don't recall his reasoning. Since it was going to be under his warranty- I went with his recommendation. This transmission only has about 12K miles on it. I plan on doing a flush in another few thousand miles and check the fluid. It has been run a bit..;0

[MaxRS6]

... slam, then go to limp mode with an incorrect gear ratio code. Goodbye "A" clutch....

Ugggghhhhh- I hate it when that happens. That lovin feeling disappears and somehow magically comes back when it gets put back together. However; does give quality time to do some cleaning...

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz195/MaxRS6/201303%20Engine%20Pull/PIC_1631_zpsa5101d4b.jpg

[lswing]

The lunch was spectacular and served by their full-time maid. (http://www.moidohod.com)

Erik, please ban the spammer....stop posting yer crap!

[mik15]

P1054 (http://www.rs6.com/member.php/19880-P1054) - i don't really think is the TC nor the clutches, exactly the same was observed on Skiper's RS6, he also started a thread here regarding this issue and until today no conclusion was ever drawn. Unless you rev it up to the red the gearbox changes alright from 1st to 2nd, right? As Tozo also said and so have others on the over the pond forum, this behavior seems to be caused by a loss of pressure, could be a cracked pipe or the VB, but as long as you stay away from red lining on the first gear i am pretty sure the gearbox will be just fine, at least Skiper's still is today with no other problems or this initial problem getting any worse.

His GB has an ACE TC and it was rebuilt around 70k miles, it is now at 140k miles, and no DTC's.

[P1054]

To all who have responded - thank you for your input! I did some research on automatic transmissions in general and torque converters in particular and now have a much better understanding of how they function.

mik15 - thank you for that information. That is exactly what my transmission is doing. Everything works perfectly fine except shifting from first to second when I give it enough throttle to rev over 5k in drive (not sport). Under less throttle, the shift from first to second is perfectly fine. So aside from suspecting that a loss of fluid pressure is the culprit, no more specific cause was ever determined on Skiper's transmission?

[mik15]

we didn't go any further, next step was to replace the VB as we have a spare gearbox, but meanwhile Skiper sold the car so we didn't get to that part. The new owner that bought it keeps in touch with us, as a matter of fact i spoke with him a couple of hours ago, so far all good with the gearbox and the car drives the same with no worsening of the aforementioned problem, but he isn't too bothered either as he rarely revs it up so high, it's his daily drive.

[G2]

I use Amsoil ATF. On-line retail is $11.50 p/qt. Meets Audi/VW and most Euro car specs. (if interested: www.oiloregon.com; ships from nearest warehouse)

Yes, changing old fluid with new can cause transmission slippage issues. Normally happens to very worn trans with high miles.

Transmissions should always have a complete fluid flush performed. Otherwise the new fluid is instantly contaminated. And the trans still has debris in it. The RS6 trans will take about 16-18qts to fully flush out all contamination. (a recent 5HP19 needed 16qts for a 9.5qt dry fill spec).

OE ATF fluid is great for meeting CAFE specs, but isn't adequate for older cars driven hard.....but for a short time. I get to see the results on a regular basis (thankfully not my cars).