May try shoving a 6HP26A into the car...

[nitrorocket]

So, if I can possibly get a little help figuring some things out.

If I can find out a few things that I need to know im gonna pick one up and make the car a 6 speed automatic.

-Will it bolt up: seems yes as the newer version 6 speed manual will and it should have the same bolt pattern as the manual trans as long as its also from a newer 4.2 car.

-Need to know what cars, if any, that will have the same gear ratio so a rear diff swap is not necessary.

-Wiring schematics for both so I can rewire the tcu's.

-Find physical dimensions to see if its anywhere close to even fitting in the trans tunnel.

-Figure out overall length to know if I have to shorten or lengthen the driveshaft.

[hahnmgh63]

The RS6 4.2 block has a different bolt pattern at the back than a normal 4.2 block. That is why the manual conversions took to long to show up, somebody that was smart with a lot of energy (Steve Ken) had to come up with an adapter plate to allow the manual to bolt up. I do hope you can do it though. I already have two track cars and would prefer to leave the RS6 with an Auto if it can be a better one.

[nitrorocket]

I dont think an adaptor is necessary. Looks like a 01e can be bolted up without the adaptor too. All the bolts are definetly not needed and starter seems it will work with a little massaging.

[JSRS6]

http://www.zf.com/media/media/document/corporate_2/downloads_1/usa/passenger_cars/6HP26A_61_Catalog.pdf

[nitrorocket]

Found that too, unfortunately it has absolutely zero useful information. The thing doesn't even show dimensions, final drive ratio, or bolt circle dimensions. Bummer...

[JSRS6]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/180585599804?lpid=82

[nitrorocket]

Once I find the TCU wiring schematics, I don't see any reason why should not be able to wire it up to function properly.

[JSRS6]

Do you know what year they fixed the internal leak?

[JSRS6]

Good price...

http://m.ebay.com/itm/121219671378?nav=SEARCH

[kday]

Are you thinking that you will use the 5 speed TCU to activate the valve body of the 6 speed transmission? Or are you hoping that the Motronic ECU will be happy to talk to a newer 6 speed TCU as if it were the original 5 speed TCU? It's certainly not impossible that Audi uses the same protocol between different ECU/TCU generations, but I wouldn't assume. It's more of a software issue than a wiring issue...

[nitrorocket]

I saw that too! We must be on the same trail. Lol

The key would be a good side to side picture of both together. And wiring schematic for the TCU.

I'm guessing if the six speed manual will fit into our cars, so should the automatic.

If you find any information on final driver he shows, let me know, I need to know if it will feasibly even work without swapping differential. :/

[nitrorocket]

Im planning on wiring in the newer tcu, ditching the old one. I need to see the wiring schematics, my hope is that it's mainly decision based off of the input sensors from the speed sensor and engine speed/ tps.

[JSRS6]

Sounds reasonable.

[nitrorocket]

I guess I have to wait till I get a wiring schematic, but my hopes are that if it sees an engine RPM signal, a speed signal, and a GPS signal, it might function correctly...

[nitrorocket]

Obviously, if I cannot figure out the wiring, or the gear ratio, the potential project would be dead. Oh those are the important things I need to find right now

[nitrorocket]

The other option would be to run a Ford transmission control module for the 6hp they run in the newer Ford's, American cars are generally much simpler, and usually seem to run the transmission control modules more independent and just need some input from the throttle position sensor engine speed and vehicle speed.

[JSRS6]

For the v10 s6:

A ZF 6HP26 six-speed tiptronic automatic transmission (parts code: 09E, identification codes: JBW, JMS, KHD, JLL) (gear ratios - 1st: 4.171, 2nd: 2.340, 3rd: 1.521, 4th: 1.143, 5th: 0.867, 6th: 0.691), with steering wheel-mounted "paddle-shifters" is the only transmission available. Torsen-based quattro permanent four-wheel drive - initially with the T-2 symmetrical differential, and from 2007 model year with the latest 40:60 front:rear asymmetric/dynamic Torsen T-3 differential, is standard. The final drive ratio is 3.801. Traction is assisted "Electronic Differential Lock" (EDL) and "Anti-Slip Regulation" (ASR) (commonly known as traction control system) - both functions of the Bosch ESP 8.0 Electronic Stability Programme.

[JSRS6]

It looks like the running gear ratios are the same for all the 6hp26 trans.

[nitrorocket]

The big question is, do I have to change the rear differential or not?

[mrdave]

Obviously, if I cannot figure out the wiring, or the gear ratio, the potential project would be dead. Oh those are the important things I need to find right now

Contact this guy about the TCU, he's super knowledgeable about that stuff: http://www.audizine.com/forum/member.php/102243-ddillenger or http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4744

[kday]

Im planning on wiring in the newer tcu, ditching the old one. I need to see the wiring schematics, my hope is that it's mainly decision based off of the input sensors from the speed sensor and engine speed/ tps.

Unfortunately I think you are going to be disappointed here. The TCU is a computer and it's operated by software. You aren't going to be able to "rewire" a newer TCU to talk to an older ECU. There's a (remote) possibility that it will just work, but if so it will be because the software in the newer TCU talks the same "language" over the CAN bus as the older one does.

Edit to expand on this: the TCU, which operates the valve body, doesn't have a direct connection to the throttle position sensor and some other sensors it needs to operate. It receives messages over the internal computer network (the powertrain CAN bus) which are produced by the Motronic ECU, and these messages contain the throttle position (or, more likely, something like a torque request value which is the output of the "model" the ECU builds of what the driver wants to do). The TCU also sends messages back to the ECU and other modules like the ABS computer. This is why just replacing the automatic transmission with a manual box results in a check engine light and disabled ABS -- the other computers in the car are expecting the TCU to send certain messages and they go into fault mode if the messages don't arrive.

[nitrorocket]

No ABS would be a blessing! Lol

[Bigglezworth]

Good price...

http://m.ebay.com/itm/121219671378?nav=SEARCH
There is NO way that unit is bolting up to the C5 RS6 engine. The centerline of the front diff on this one is clearly further forward and almost past the mounting flange to the engine. The 5hp24 is significantly further back. This excercise is about more than just adapting a bellhousing, gearing, and TCU. Itabout physical alignmenet of the front drive axles within the chassis AND, ensuring sufficient space within the transmission tunnel to locate the two turbos. Massive bellhousing that has the TC located further towards the rear is even larger than the C5 and robs the necessary space for turbos and downpipes. WAY too much Frankensteining for even the most seasoned backyard autohead.

1488114882

[nitrorocket]

But doesn't the six speed manual fit into our cars? I'm pretty sure I saw that has been done. So that would mean the six speed manual and the six speed automatic should have the same centerlines. No?

[nitrorocket]

Does the RS4, with a manual and automatic transmission?

[nitrorocket]

14883


Here is one out of a phaeton.

[nitrorocket]

So it appears that the RS4 and the phaeton might have the same transmission, and the a8 is different.

[JSRS6]

I think you are on to something. Phaeton/rs4 trans looks more like 5hp in ours.

[SteveKen]

But doesn't the six speed manual fit into our cars? I'm pretty sure I saw that has been done. So that would mean the six speed manual and the six speed automatic should have the same centerlines. No?

The 5/6 speed 01E fits but not naturally.

The block from the RS6 and the D2 A8 are exactly the same, but I'm pretty sure the upper oil pan/skirt is different since the D3 doesn't need turbo oil return lines. Therefore, I'm not sure if the bolt pattern between them is exact below say 4 to 8 o'clock.

Pictured here is a spacer from a W12 Phaeton overlayed on the RS6 block. I'd be happy with this bolt/attachment coverage even though there's not an easy way to get a bolt at 10 o'clock.
http://i690.photobucket.com/albums/vv264/performanceghia/RS6%20Transmission%205HP24A/20130529_075308_zps5ea3f416.jpg

It looks like there is conflicting information on what the transmission looks like or if there are different variations? The eBay one seems to be verified from a D3 A8 and confirms what I've heard, which is that the front diff is farther forward and would throw off the geometry of the front axles and interfere with the passenger side exhaust manifold among other things. Although, it looks like there's a spacer that is needed. See the pics of the engine that the eBay transmission came from (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2005-AUDI-A8-A8L-LONG-BASE-4-2-8-CYLINDER-SEDAN-A-T-ENGINE-MOTOR-OEM-/111275225686?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item19e8853256). Maybe it will bolt and actually work from a mechanical standpoint???

Electronic standpoint. I have no idea. If my S6/RS6 project was finished, I'd consider buying a D3 and sell you the transmission and all the guts and try to put an 01E in it.

[TozoM8]

That will be nearly impossible. Aside of the physical dimension differences, the 6HP26 has the TCU inside the trans.

[mik15]

plus you would need 6hp32, the 26 wouldn't be able to cope with the high torque, it's only rated for 550NM i believe, while the 6hp32 is 750NM rated...or even better the 6hp34 to make sure you get a higher range of torque limit.

[nitrorocket]

14888


Tozo, it still apears to be comtrolled by a tcu in the phaeton. Here is a pic, looks just like the rs6 tcu... Maybe there is a secondary controller inside the transmission, but it still appears to be controlled by the TCU and as long as you get the harness going between the transmission and the TCU, it should function. Pretty sure I'm gonna find out. ;)

Soooo, everyone says the 6hp26 is stronger than the 5hp. And im guessing if it will hold behind the 2008-2010 RS6, it will be fine in hours.

If anybody can help me lineup a wiring schematic for the phaeton and the RS6, ill tell you if it will work. I do a lot of custom rewiring of different cars, im hoping to figure this one out too. Theoretically I can always just use a standalone control module with inputs from the engine.

[nitrorocket]

If I can get the wiring schematics, I would really rather try to run it off the stock audi system with an integrated TCU from a phaeton,

Otherwise there are other options that will work to.

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/msd-2761?seid=srese1&gclid=CIDC2JX10LwCFXNo7AodpGwAzQ

[SteveKen]

That will be nearly impossible. Aside of the physical dimension differences, the 6HP26 has the TCU inside the trans.


I'm glad you chimed in on this, as I remember talking to you about this a couple years ago.

Do you know what kind of transmission is pictured strapped to the jack?

Also do you have any leads on any S8s with bad transmissions?

[hahnmgh63]

The bad news on the Phaeton is that the W12 came with the 5HP24, the 4.2 normally aspirated came with the 6HP19 or 6HP26A which would be the closest fit for us but like Mik15 said, it would never handle the Torque. And as it would be nice to have the 6spd, who wants to install a weak transmission that's going to fail like the 5HP after all of the work to convert.
6HP19 (strongest version, up to 450NM of TQ)
6HP26 (strongest version, up to 650NM of TQ)
6HP32 (strongest version, up to 750NM of TQ)
I left out the 6HP28 as their isn't a AWD version.
http://www.zf.com/media/media/document/corporate_2/downloads_1/usa/passenger_cars/6HP_19-21_Catalog.pdf
http://www.zf.com/media/media/document/corporate_2/downloads_1/usa/passenger_cars/6HP26-28_Catalog.pdf
http://www.apra-europe.org/dateien/downloads/APRA_Birmingham_Hans-Peter_Bach_ZF_Transmissions_with_Mechatronics.pdf

[nitrorocket]

The 6hp26a also came in the 2008-2010 RS6. That made plenty of power!

[nitrorocket]

It appears the transmissions from the eight series will not fit. Looks like it needs to be from a Phaeton or a newer rs6.

This whole wondering can all be resolved when I get a wearing schematic, I think I'm just going to go buy one. I will answer most questions.

[hahnmgh63]

That is true, but the version that came in the "Euro only RS6 2008-2010" was never sold in N. America. You would have to import that version from Europe. It is a stronger version than what is used in the U.S. A8, etc... Not 100% sure about the N. America S6 though, anyone know which version of the 6HP26A that is? May be a stronger version than what was available in the A8. Keep in mind ours is a different version of the 5HP24A than what was in the A6, A8, S6, etc...
I'm not trying to shoot the idea down, I would love to have the 6sp auto box in my car. You are probably on the close track of looking into the Phaeton version due to the front diff. But the best choice would probably need to be the Phaeton W12 version which I would bet is a stronger box than the Phaeton 4.2 which in N. America I don't think came with the the 6HP26A, just the 6HP19A.

[nitrorocket]

Unless there is a separate rebuild kit for the euro version, it would have the same power holding capabilities ans internal parts will interchange. A 6hp should be a 6hp across the board minus case differences for different chassis.

[nitrorocket]

Here is an application chart.

14889

[TozoM8]

I'm glad you chimed in on this, as I remember talking to you about this a couple years ago.

Do you know what kind of transmission is pictured strapped to the jack?

Also do you have any leads on any S8s with bad transmissions?

The trans on the jack is a 6HP19 out of a 4.2 Phaeton. The D3 A8 also has the 6HP19.
Unfortunatelly the D2 got old so people junking them.
The 6HP26 is way stronger than the 5HP24. The Aston Martin DB9 has it and it holds up with that V12 with no problems.

[hahnmgh63]

http://www.apra-europe.org/dateien/downloads/APRA_Birmingham_Hans-Peter_Bach_ZF_Transmissions_with_Mechatronics.pdf
Well, maybe Tozo can pipe in. I'm just saying their are different versions within the range of TQ rating. Trying dropping in a 5HP24 out of an A6 in our car. The Tq converter alone in the RS6 is about 1" larger diameter, the Audi RS6 study guide says:
The following modifications have been
made to the previous transmission:
• Reinforced transfer gear and
transmission housings
• Increased clutch pressure
• Brake “D” reinforced (one additional
coated disc)
• Reinforced spur gear drive splines
(modified material)
But it is still called the 5HP24A

[nitrorocket]

If the phaeton did not come with a 6hp26, lets find me one that will fit. What cars in us came with one then? Hmmm

[nitrorocket]

I need to figure out what 6hp26's came in that are attainable.

[hahnmgh63]

According to http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Tranisite/audi.htm#S4/S6 which is probably not gospel but may be. The 2004+ W12 A8's came with the 6HP32. funny that with the later V10's they swapped to the Aisin TR60SN gearbox. Same as the Porsche Cayenen/VW Touareg. Could the Differential have a different placement between the W12 version compared to the V10 version compared to the 4.2 version?

[SteveKen]

The 6hp26a also came in the 2008-2010 RS6. That made plenty of power!

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Automatik-Getriebe-Audi-A6-4F-RS6-quattro-KZQ-Automatikgetriebe-6HP26A-61-/390751020895?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item5afa93675f

$7200 plus shipping makes for an expensive experiment.



Unfortunatelly the D2 got old so people junking them.

This makes me sad. Aluminum scrap must pay pretty well for these, too. I'm going to keep looking though...

[hahnmgh63]

From Wiki:
6HP26A[edit]
Four-wheel drive version used in Audi, Volkswagen Passenger Cars and Bentley marques of the Volkswagen Group:

2002–present Volkswagen Phaeton (Typ 3D)
2003–2009 Audi A8 (D3, Typ 4E)
2003–present Bentley Continental GT
2005–present Bentley Continental Flying Spur
2006–present Audi S6 (C6, Typ 4F)
2008–2010 Audi RS6 (C6, Typ 4F)

[hahnmgh63]

It would be an expensive test but that one, 6HP26A-61 is also used in the Euro 4.2TDI which is a TQ monster 480lb-ft, so it could probably handle the TQ. The V12 DB9 puts out some HP but only 420lb-ft of TQ.

[mik15]

i don't think it was the 6hp26, it is part of the 6hp family but not the 26, i have the 6hp26 on the 750Li, and if you check the BMW forum you'll see how many gearboxes have failed, while on the uk RS forum there are only maybe 2 or 3 that have had issues with the gearboxes on their C6 RS6...

[nitrorocket]

There could be a very good chance though that failures are due to the tuning on the TCU. To the Chevrolet six speed 6l80/90e, The shift dwell times and solenoid line pressures are very critical for the transmissions to last. If the tuning is a little off, you can go through transmission very fast. Wonderful stew to the tuning between those two cars.

[nitrorocket]

Also, maybe the lack of issues with the new rs6 are because the owners dont drive them as much and that there are so very few sold comparably??

[nitrorocket]

Realistically, the bell housing doesn't even have to fit the motor, I could cut off the bell housing and weld on a donor bell housing. Lol

[hahnmgh63]

There are a lot of issues on the VW forums with the both the 5sp (5HP25) & 6sp (6HP19/6HP26) in the Phaetons but you don't here about an overwhelming amount of failures in the A8, although the A8 is listed with a curb weight about 800#'s less, and were another 100# less than that.

[hahnmgh63]

Tozo, I just put my girlfriends '05 A8L on the lift and the casting in the side of the transmission say's 6HP26. Do the non "L" A8 D3's only have the 6HP19? Her car is a 4.2 and not a W12.

[nitrorocket]

How Forward are the front axles coming out of the transmission? Are they in the similar location is ours, or are the way forward?

[4everRS]

Subscribed.

:pop:

[hahnmgh63]

14890
The Axles are forward on the A8 D3 6HP26, at least in the version that goes in the 4.2. The Phaeton tranny pic looks like a better fit as far as the axles. A much different looking case compared to the A8. I wonder if that pic is of a 6HP19A or a 6HP26A. Check out this pic of the front axle on the 6HP26A.

[nitrorocket]

The phaeton transmission picture that i posted is most likely a six hp nineteen. Sources say that the phaeton came with a six hp twentysix. I need to somehow verify that or find a model that did.

[hahnmgh63]

I think your right. The 6HP19 probably came with the VR6 Phaeton and the 6HP26 with the 4.2L

[nitrorocket]

I need to find a good line on one, and then I'm going to install it.

[TozoM8]

Tozo, I just put my girlfriends '05 A8L on the lift and the casting in the side of the transmission say's 6HP26. Do the non "L" A8 D3's only have the 6HP19? Her car is a 4.2 and not a W12.

'04-'06 has the 6HP26A. The later ones with the FSI engine has the 6HP19. They try to save a buck just like they did on the C5 allroad. All C5 A/S RS6 with the V8 had the 5HP24A except the allroad (5HP19).

[TozoM8]

I need to find a good line on one, and then I'm going to install it.

I see that you are really fired up to do this :) I would just get a TCU stuff figured out before swapping transmissions. Audi is very particular about TCUs. you can't even make another C5 TCU work in it let alone a VW TCU the speaks a different language.

[nitrorocket]

Ok, good info.

Still need to check on wiring schematics for both cars. The transmission will work just fine, I'm sure, as long as it does not trigger a failsafe where the trans will lock into 4th gear. If that happens, I'm going to have to bypass the TCU all together and try to feed it separate input's, or run a standalone computer to operate it.

[nitrorocket]

This is odd, it shows a 2004-2006 phaeton with 4.2 having a 6hp19... Hmmm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TRANSMISSION-ASSEMBLY-2004-06-VOLKSWAGEN-PHAETON-AUTOMATIC-AUTO-AT-4-2L-V8-GUW-/271124369845?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3APhaeton&hash=item3f204591b5&vxp=mtr

[nitrorocket]

Seems to be some misinformation, i dont think the phaeton came with the 26 at all, i cannot find a trans from one. Appears to be a myth.

[TozoM8]

The axle line is ~7" from the motor on yours. the 6HP26 is around 2". You need to put a 5" spacer to have the axles straight. You also need to extend your TC by 5". Only the 6HP19 would fit without major fabrication.

[TozoM8]

Seems to be some misinformation, i dont think the phaeton came with the 26 at all, i cannot find a trans from one. Appears to be a myth.

They didn't. If you search ebay A8, you will see that '04-'06 V8 and W12 had the 6HP26 the '07-up is 5HP19.

[mik15]

i had a VR6 Phaeton and it had the 5hp gearbox, the early ones used it until 2004, except for the V8 and V6 diesel which came from the beginning with the 6hp, while the V10 Tdi and W12 used the 5hp until nowadays. however i didn't know they used a 6hp19 for the V8, i thought it would have been the 6hp26, makes sense...

as a note, VW on a SB recommended changing the gearbox oil every 30k km on the 5hp24A for the W12 and V10 engines, after having too many early failures on the first sold cars.

[nitrorocket]

Anyone no if the transmission out of the 2008-2010 rs6 has a more rearward front axle placement.

[nitrorocket]

The v10 tdi uses a 5hp24?!?!? That thing weighs WAY more than the rs6 and has WAY more torque than ours, especially tuned. Hell, they pulled a jumbo jet with it!

I want an internal parts list of that 5hp24...

[nitrorocket]

I have rebuilt a lot of 5hp24's, but never one because it failed from clutches or abuse. I have rebuilt them due to piston failures, all the 19 series that I have every belt we're due to drum failures.

It seems that the rs6 finds the clutch pack weakness.

If I find out I cannot get a 6HP that will fit into the car, then I need to figure out if I'm going to just rebuild mine, or throw my six speed manual into the car. Anybody know what flywheel I will need to use, ha ha

[nubcake]

I have randomly stumbled upon this file at nefmoto forums. Not sure if it can be of any use, since it's for 5hp19 - but my guess would be that 5hp24 is virtually the same. Now we just need the 6hp26 diagram. :)

[nitrorocket]

I've been digging, and I can't find any pictures of the 2010 RS6 transmission.

I did find this really cool link that shows pictures of every transmission made for the most part.

I cannot seem to find a different transmission that is stronger than the 5hp24fla

[nitrorocket]

If the conversion were even going to be done, it would only make sense to go with the 8hp55.

But... It appears all the newer cars have a forward mounted front axle line. Without moving the whole engine and transmission assembly rearward the project would never work. Damn

[hahnmgh63]

I think that was part of Audi's plan in the later cars C6-on, was to move the engine farther rearward for better weight distribution. Audi was always known for having a non-optimal forward weight distribution.