If you were me... Auto or Manual

[nitrorocket]

Well, I blew my transmission this morning.

Fortunately I own my own shop... I can either throw a rebuild kit into my transmission, and try to do some internal upgrades to the stock transmission.

Or... I have a complete six speed set up that I could put in also.

I'm undecided on what I should do, I really like automatic, and automatic is faster with a turbo car unless you have no lift shift options.

It's just a fairly well modified daily driver, and honestly I don't not like driving stick anymore, I'm getting old.

Opinions?

[JSRS6]

I think you answered your own question then man. Upgrade the auto box. Talk to tozo about the best options for upgrading the box and send the tc to ace.

[4.2Crew]

I think you answered your own question then man. Upgrade the auto box. Talk to tozo about the best options for upgrading the box and send the tc to ace.

+1

The car, for me, is exactly what I desire in a comfortable performance luxury sedan as a daily driver.

[nitrorocket]

Youre right, my main concern is spending the time to pull it out, tear it apart, install new guts, and then blow it up again this next year. The car will be making 600hp with a couple more tweaks and i just want a box to hold the power reliably. Lol

[nitrorocket]

I can go through my auto for about $400. But then its only stock. Curious as to what the "upgraded" kits include for $700 more...

[mrdave]

Or... I have a complete six speed set up that I could put in also.

If you go the auto route, would you be looking to get rid of your six speed setup?

[nitrorocket]

Yes i would

[ben916]

I'm just gonna put this right here... mkay?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0A-MksrxJ4&list=PLB0E575E5787DDCD8&index=4

opps, not sure it works anymore... Mr. Balsen!!!!

[Bigglezworth]

The car will be making 600hp with a couple more tweaks
Would be interested in knowing just what exactly you've done to get to this power claim. If you are indeed pushing that much power you could well be eclipsing the 11.5sec 1/4 mile time making it one of the fastest beasts on NA soil....

Even an upgraded auto will start to balk at power levels hitting or exceeding the 600hp realm. If you're fine with the many hours required to perform a drop & swap or an R&R effort with a full rebuild while out, then you're certain to be many many $$ further ahead with the auto.

[nitrorocket]

I already have a full six speed conversion, so it could go either way. I can either put the six speed in the car, or build my automatic. If I can find some people who have been running future power numbers for some time now, I will just build my automatic.

Getting big Palerrad of cars especially turbo cars, is not very difficult. But first things first, I need to get a good transmission in the car.

[nitrorocket]

I already have a full six speed conversion, so it could go either way. I can either put the six speed in the car, or build my automatic. If I can find some people who have been running future power numbers for some time now, I will just build my automatic.

Getting big Palerrad of cars especially turbo cars, is not very difficult. But first things first, I need to get a good transmission in the car.

[nitrorocket]

What was in the video?

[Dynmicracr]

These are the things that get upgraded at 517:

http://www.517trans.com/catalog/11a.php

Is it just me or have these prices come down? I dont remember it being "only" 3900 for the trans.

[lswing]

What are the power upgrades? You basically need turbo and fuel system, IC's, tune, exhaust, could add Loba cams, should get you to 600/750. Upgraded clutch packs, maybe just more clutches, not sure if material is better, upgraded vb, some of what the trans needs.

For me it's auto only, love it. I'm also replacing a trans after 8 months. About 500/550 at engine. The torque will tear it up. If you are gonna run more power you need to upgrade to manual. Keep the cars limitations in mind.

Still don't know what broke in the trans, maybe not caused by the power, but I think it was. Will have a new thread in a few months.

[lswing]

These are the things that get upgraded at 517:

http://www.517trans.com/catalog/11a.php

Is it just me or have these prices come down? I dont remember it being "only" 3900 for the trans.

Sounds about right. Believe Tozo with VB rebuild is $3500, one year warranty, which he's been very nice about with me.

[lswing]

I already have a full six speed conversion, so it could go either way. I can either put the six speed in the car, or build my automatic. If I can find some people who have been running future power numbers for some time now, I will just build my automatic.

Getting big Palerrad of cars especially turbo cars, is not very difficult. But first things first, I need to get a good transmission in the car.

Some people have said they've run tuned 500+ power through auto and been fine. I think if they drove it harder they wouldn't say the same thing. Driving habit is huge...

[lswing]

I think you answered your own question then man. Upgrade the auto box. Talk to tozo about the best options for upgrading the box and send the tc to ace.

Tozo can do TC also, straightforward I believe...

[4everRS]

That is the link for the 4 and 6 cylinder engines. The 4.2 is over 5k. Here's the correct link
http://www.517trans.com/catalog/11b.php



These are the things that get upgraded at 517:

http://www.517trans.com/catalog/11a.php

Is it just me or have these prices come down? I dont remember it being "only" 3900 for the trans.

[nitrorocket]

I lose some respect for shops that charge $300+ per hour labor rates, thats what is wrong with this counrty. Lol... I only do a trans per month ans it still only takes me 6 hours to go through a 5hp24. If i can get a kit for less then $400, thats nuts. Local shops to me charge $2700 to go through a trans. Over $2000 profit for a 1 day job. Yikes!

[nitrorocket]

Thats why im wondering what is different with ther kits over a stock one. The only difference in yhe kits can be the clutches. Its just clutches and seals and lotsa o-rings.... Lol

[JSRS6]

So, $1000 plus shipping both ways will git r dun? :hihi:


I lose some respect for shops that charge $300+ per hour labor rates, thats what is wrong with this counrty. Lol... I only do a trans per month ans it still only takes me 6 hours to go through a 5hp24. If i can get a kit for less then $400, thats nuts. Local shops to me charge $2700 to go through a trans. Over $2000 profit for a 1 day job. Yikes!

[lswing]

I lose some respect for shops that charge $300+ per hour labor rates, thats what is wrong with this counrty. Lol... I only do a trans per month ans it still only takes me 6 hours to go through a 5hp24. If i can get a kit for less then $400, thats nuts. Local shops to me charge $2700 to go through a trans. Over $2000 profit for a 1 day job. Yikes!

Hate to say it, but I lose respect for people that boast HP numbers and repair times without going into details:)

1-you've been asked about your "600 HP", nothing....

2-you have no idea what these other trans builders are adding. Besides upgraded kits closer to $700, there are many minor details that come from years of experience. Worth every penny in my opinion.

3-so you're now offering trans rebuild for $1000? One or two year warranty?

Just seems like you could contribute a bit more info instead of dissing people that have worked and helped with these cars for many years.

[nitrorocket]

Really!?!?

[lswing]

Thats why im wondering what is different with ther kits over a stock one. The only difference in yhe kits can be the clutches. Its just clutches and seals and lotsa o-rings.... Lol

That seems reasonable for a $700 compared to stock $400. Yep, clutches, seals, rings. Also add in filter, OEM $65? And the VB rebuild, you doing that too? I think there are a few pins prone to breaking, something like that...

[nitrorocket]

That is why I am asking what is different in their kits. Even if a kit is $700, the stock one is less than 400, what is worth double the price. I hope you understand where I'm coming from with that question.

Yes, I rebuild transmissions for $1000.

I did not see my car has 600 hp, I said it will with a few more tweaks. I honestly don't care about horsepower, I care about mile-per-hour and the quarter-mile. 600 is not much power....

Does anybody know what the differences between their kids, and a stock kit?

[lswing]

Really!?!?

Well I'm sure you know a lot, but making statements about others overcharging and your work being much cheaper doesn't seem like a great thing to me...helping instead of boasting would be nice. And I want to know the 600 hp details and you're not answering, just saying....

[lswing]

That is why I am asking what is different in their kits. Even if a kit is $700, the stock one is less than 400, what is worth double the price. I hope you understand where I'm coming from with that question.

Yes, I rebuild transmissions for $1000.

I did not see my car has 600 hp, I said it will with a few more tweaks. I honestly don't care about horsepower, I care about mile-per-hour and the quarter-mile. 600 is not much power....

Does anybody know what the differences between their kids, and a stock kit?

So with a $700 build kit, plus VB rebuild, plus additional parts, plus filter, plus whatever else, $1,000...I don't think so. And what is your warranty? 1 or 2 years, modified.

600 is a lot of power for this car, hardly able to get more for many reasons, and we really know it's the torque anyhow.

Interested what your mod list and tune is though....

Sorry to be an ass, just would like more info, and realistic pricing on the rebuild.

[nitrorocket]

600 hp is a mixture of cool air, timing, fuel, and boost. Once I get my pile back together, I'm going to start tweaking those a little bit and start to make some serious power to the ground. That's the least of my concern right now, it's honestly not that big of a deal and very attainable. I don't know what the limit is, but after I get a transmission in the car, I will surely find out.

Didn't mean to offend anybody, but I've been in business for a lot of years, and my customers usually cannot believe how little I charge. The funny thing is, is I make a serious amount of profit by charging sometimes half what other shops do for the same job. Maybe im rare, but I am a believer in fairness. I would feel guilty putting an eight hour shift at the shop and making that type of profit. That is besides the point though.


I will probably choose to not build up my automatic, the reason being, is I have built piles and piles of these for customers, because they continue to fail . I was hoping somebody had a magic collaboration of parts that would make them bulletproof, but I haven't seen them . Even very reputable companies have had failures. I have had good luck with the six beads, and with a couple of tricks, they can be very reliable smooth shifting transmissions.

I'm not trying to offend anybody, sorry if I did. If you do have any technical automotive questions, I am always happy to answer. And if you were ever in Milwaukee I would like to stop by and shoot the crap for an hour or two, I'm here. You don't have to pay a lot to get good quality work. :)

I have actually dedicated most my life to helping people, besides owning my own shop, I am also a full-time nurse. I'd like to try to make a positive difference in peoples lives, either be by saving their life, or by saving them a few bucks. Lol

[nitrorocket]

To be honest, tuning the RS6 is a pain in the ass. Other Autys are very easy, there is software out there to tune them . Nobody makes a tuning software for the RS6, all the stuff is in German and very hard to interpret. I have had my hands full trying to tune this car. My main problem is as have had training slipping issues from first to second gear almost immediately.

If the software was more user-friendly, I would love to try to retrofit a six speed auto. That would be a fun project!

[nitrorocket]

What I would really love, it's a very in-depth automatic transmission conversation about parts upgrades and tweaks.

[lswing]

Thanks for the info man, always good to know where someone is coming from.

Fitting bigger turbos and getting custom headers seems to be the biggest limit for going high hp. Cooling and fuel is easy...

It would be great to have all those trans details out there for those rebuilding at home.

Maybe just find a tuner that will work with you, log data, adjust maps. Eurocharged? Viper?

I really like the auto box and paddle shifting. I'm assuming you have a TCU upgrade for tighter shifts and higher rev holding? What I started to do was look for another car that would hold more power, keeping the Audi of course.

[nitrorocket]

Yeah, i have the tcu chip.

Im not used to limitations. I tune LS1 cars and the software is amazing . I can make a car do ANYTHING I want. I use Eurodyne for the 2.7t stuff. Works great too.


Im not convinced the turbos and manifolds are the bottle neck. From all ive seen, seems like cams are holding things back. I have a ton of tricks up my sleeve, and as time goes on and I try them ill share results. First things first, i need it to drive. Lol

[nitrorocket]

Have you had good luck with your Tozo built trans? Hold full power upshifys well over long periods of time??

[lswing]

Have you had good luck with your Tozo built trans? Hold full power upshifys well over long periods of time??

Something broke in it, seal, oring, clutches, not sure. Put a decent whooping on it, but not horrible. Will see once the old one gets torn apart, new one going in now under warranty. I worry a failed trans temp sensor didn't regulate TC correctly leading to it cooking, who knows...my old stock trans lasted years tuned, so guessing something random lead to early failure.

The only reason I know it's failing is won't hold full power in third. Shudders then jumps to fourth. Maybe VB, some pressure issue, will report back in a few months!

[Other_Erik]

I vote stick with auto, and keep blowing it up until you get that magical mixture that makes it bulletproof. Then you can offer up a bulletproof 5hp24 for us poor souls who baby their starting-to-show-its-age TC/Trans combo (and maybe offer a special discount for your 'Sconsin brethren?) Much as I love the control of a manual, being in the DC area means I sit in stop&go traffic 90+% of the time, and I like the fact that I don't have to bulk my left leg to twice the size of the right keeping a clutch pedal at/near the floor in 5mph traffic every day...

Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth (nothing)

O_E

[nitrorocket]

You are right!! Lol its SO nice to just drive the car. No shifting! Lol

Im hoping someone will post up a good kit that has been proven over the years to hold the power year afater year! I hear 517 has a solid setup??

Anyone heard of installing a 6 speed auto? Anyone figure out a controller to make it work? Lol

[hahnmgh63]

As far as improved kits for the 5HP24, I don't know if anyone around sells them. Some builders custom make clutches for their rebuilds and don't want to sell them as parts for others, so proprietary is the word there.

[SteveKen]

Just my $0.02. I'd recommend you stay with the automatic, but I think you will not be happy with either option.

The manual conversion would have you relying on others to get the ECU proper and remote tuning is probably not feasible due to the level of protection kept on the RS6 manual tune. If you're looking at 600WHP, then High HP 01Es are going to cost a lot, too and add to noise and lessen driveability. Unless, it's not intended to be daily driven, etc...


The car will be making 600hp with a couple more tweaks and i just want a box to hold the power reliably. Lol

Just my opinion, but this is not possible...ever. I'm still adamant that nothing can be done to the slushbox to make it any better and add to its longevity once you start adding power. As far as I know, nothing else will fit either.

[lswing]

Im hoping someone will post up a good kit that has been proven over the years to hold the power year afater year!

Will never happen due to the size of the clutch packs. Actually I bet a stock engine would allow an upgraded trans to last 100k. Much of it is driving habits and conditions.

[lswing]

One of the more complete kits I've found, http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUDI-ZF5HP24FLA-TRANSMISSION-MASTER-KIT-W-STEELS-AND-UPDATED-A-DRUM-/110961038342

Figure $1,150 with shipping, then also need to redo VB, filter, other small breakables...

[ben916]

Just my opinion, but this is not possible...ever. I'm still adamant that nothing can be done to the slushbox to make it any better and add to its longevity once you start adding power. As far as I know, nothing else will fit either.

I tend to agree, meaning WHEEL horsepower not CRANK horsepower, and this is why:

1. That specific model C5 RS6 has been in alive for 10+ years with some of the brightest/intelligent gear heads attempting to do the same. It would have been figured out already...
2. MTM couldn't figure it out but they got somewhat close @ 568 with a chip and all sorts of other bits (in Automatic transmission).
3. Dahlback Racing couldn't figure it out.
4. Audi GBMH or whatever it is, couldn't do it either, hence the 450hp.

The only C5 RS6 that are remotely close to 600HP at the wheels are:
1. C5 RS6 MTM Clubsport Avant in a 6 speed manual transmission (the link to the video with Mr. Balsen in the passenger seat).
2. C5 RS6 Sportec RS600 Sedan in a 6 speed manual transmission (the username escapes me at the moment)
3. C5 RS6 with a transplanted Dahlback racing motor and turbos (Steven Sib's old car - Special Sauce) - Automatic and I lost count how many transmissions/tq he blew thru.
4. C5 RS6 that competed in the world challenge championship in the US (Probst/Galati).

So nitrorocket, you are more than welcome to try to get to 600hp WHEEL horsepower in the shushbox, not that you need my or anyone else's approval, and I am sure that all members here would love to see how you accomplished it.

The C5 RS6 V8tt can handle the power (Gumpert Apollo).
The C5 RS6 5HP24 transmission can not handle the power.
The O1E tdi with built/hardened inners from 1-2 and above can handle the power, but at a huge cost.

Good luck in your adventure.

[Bigglezworth]

#1 RS6 Oxymoron: Bulletproof 5HP24...... ha

Nuff said!

[nitrorocket]

Whats odd, is that its really common for the s4/a6 with the 2.7t to make around 450 to the wheels with rs6 or frankenturbos. I had built one myself and tuned it with eurodyne. Im curious to figure put why a motor that is much larger has trouble making the same power? I ran 21 psi of boost from 3000rpm to redline with that motor on 93 octane. That was through a 01E and a spec stage 3+ clutch.

Im almost thinking the compression in the RS6 is a bit to high, im sure lowering compression may help some, anyone ever yank the heads off and get some chamber work done? 9.8 is very high compression for a 93 octane car. Anyone know cam profile differences?

Im planning on running e85 by summer. That will allow quite a bit more boost.


Sooooo, is it sounding like the consensus is that even 517, level10, and tozo trans tricks cannot reliably hold the power? If thats the case, 01E would be the only option? Dang... :(


Guys, FWIW, 10secrs4 is making close to 600hp with his nearly stock RS6 on the track. 118 trap speed is getting VERY close.

I run his tune currently...

[nitrorocket]

Im sad, i was really really hoping someone had a magic selection of clutches or tweaks to make the auto trans hold the power.

Any one try wiring in a 6 speed auto tcu to the car? Anyone know if the 6hp will bolt up to the motor? Ive heard its a stronger box.

[Bigglezworth]

Guys, FWIW, 10secrs4 is making close to 600hp with his nearly stock RS6 on the track. 118 trap speed is getting VERY close.

I run his tune currently...Have run this specific tune for 4 years....

[nitrorocket]

Have you had your car to the track yet or no?

[Bigglezworth]

Yes. Autocross and drag's both.

[nitrorocket]

What did you trap in the quarter mile? I canny wait till spring to get mine to the track!

[Bigglezworth]

What did you trap in the quarter mile? I canny wait till spring to get mine to the track!11.7 accounting for correction due to elevation. Could have likely been a couple of tenths quicker and run in line with Marc's grey beast that ran an 11.5. Archilies heel is the tranny which is how this thread started. Important to note this time was on an engine with more than a quarter of a million miles on the odometer and on an OEM replacement 5HP24 with more than 130000 miles on it.

[lswing]

Im planning on running e85 by summer. That will allow quite a bit more boost.

Guys, FWIW, 10secrs4 is making close to 600hp with his nearly stock RS6 on the track. 118 trap speed is getting VERY close.

I run his tune currently...

FWIW, the fellow with SpeedTraps old car is running e85, upgraded turbos, 6-speed box I believe. Forget the numbers he was getting....

And, although I'm sure 10sec's tune it good, I've never once seen a dyno pull on a Mustang or Dynojet, along with AFR and EGT's, to reflect said power numbers, never once over a year, just saying...clearly it's fast on the drag. I believe his hp numbers are inflated, and I'm sure you're talking 600 crank as even 550 crank is very tough to obtain with small mods.

[Bigglezworth]

FWIW, the fellow with SpeedTraps old car is running e85, upgraded turbos, 6-speed box I believe. Forget the numbers he was getting....

And, although I'm sure 10sec's tune it good, I've never once seen a dyno pull on a Mustang or Dynojet, along with AFR and EGT's, to reflect said power numbers, never once over a year, just saying...clearly it's fast on the drag. I believe his hp numbers are inflated, and I'm sure you're talking 600 crank as even 550 crank is very tough to obtain with small mods.Sites like these are always helpful to get a general concensus on the various parts of the formula. http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php. Curb weight including driver and other odds and sods can easily push 4550-4600lbs. Said it a number of times that due to different manufactures coupled with different methods of measuring force, a dynojet is best used to tune a car vs. confirm set power values. Actual physics talks.

[hahnmgh63]

The S4 2.7t are getting in the chipped RS6 HP range but look at one on a Dyno, their not getting the Torque and that is what kills the 5HP24. Yes, if you can get the 6HP26 to work with the RS6 I'll be the next to convert. The 6HP can handle more power, weights less, and shifts faster besides the benefits of the extra gear. MTM does make a thicker Head Gasket to lower compression, they use this on their ClubSport package.

[4everRS]

I would love to see someone figure out how to get the 6hp26 to bolt up to our engines AND get the ecu and TCU to communicate with each other

[lswing]

#1 RS6 Oxymoron: Bulletproof 5HP24...... ha

Nuff said!

Clutch packs are too damn small!!!

I will always run the slush box, just not beat the crap out of it drag racing...

[nitrorocket]

Ill be the 6hp trial... I need to track down some wiring schematics for the tcu on the rs6 and a good donor year ans model with the 6hp. I do alot of the rewiring stuff with the ls1 cars I do.

The big thing is if the trans will actally fit into and bolt up to the car also...

I need some trans dimensions too. Need someone with a big trany shop with both on hand to compare side by side.

[JSRS6]

Call shokan

[Brav]

I think this has been suggested in the past, and from what I remember (wiring aside), the axles would not be in a very direct line going to the hub

[hahnmgh63]

Brav, did you ever get the gearbox installed?

[Brav]

Brav, did you ever get the gearbox installed?

Actually, I did. Finally got the car buttoned up.. I was going to post my pics and thoughts in another thread, been too busy lately. So far so good while breaking in rebuilt turbos. but for some reason power seems to be down on the car, now that I have done the oil change back to synthetic and can get on it.

[hahnmgh63]

When your ready run the standard logs, see if it is a Boost leak issue.