Audi A3 8v (MQB) - RS3

[tailpipe]

My dealer tells me that the new RS3 based on the MQB platform will be announced in March 2014 with European delivery starting in May 2014 and UK delivery in September 2014.

They have been given clear communication on this by Audi AG because of the imminent arrival in late 2013 of the Mercedes-Benz A45 AMG. No word on spec, but a Sportback is certain. Given that next TT will move further upmarket, we may get a 3-door RS3 as well as a Sportback.

I have no details on spec, but my educated guess is same 5-cylinder engine with increased (407?) bhp.

I just hope it gets some form of dynamic ride control so that it rides a bit softer on UK roads.

[AndyBG]

IMHO, 2.5 T stays, NO chance for more than 380 ps! Will be lighter, but don't expect anything REevolutionary on the ride and drive quality. It still going to be transversal engine...

I also expect it in both Sportback and sedan layout, 3 door want be ''blessed'' with RS makeover, still, just IMHO!

[PANZER]

A45 AMG rumord to have 370hp out of 2 liter sound very high for a production engine.
However technology moves forward so its not impossible.

Should be a cool car.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/06/13/mercedes-benz-a45-amg-2-0-turbo-good-for-crazy-185-hp-per-liter/

[The Pretender]

2.0 Bi-TFSI 356 ps.

[JavierNuvolari]

Wow, I wonder how these cars will age in time...370hp out of 2.0liter engine sounds VERY delicate, expensive and hard to maintain, my guess it's going to be a supercharged V6. Anyways, the next RS 3 should lose 100-150 kilo, same torque and hp figures with improved fuel economy is a winning combination.

Cheers!

[Joker]

185hp/L sounds extremely high don't you think, though I'm no mechanic or engineer to be able to argue either way and AMG do produce some amazing engines.

[ZeroCool]

2.0 Bi-TFSI 356 ps.

Never..
they have a 5 cyl. engine which can develop this power level without any problem.. (see TT-RS Plus) it would be stupid to develop a new engine just for the RS3..

[AndyBG]

I think 2.5 T will stay in next gen' RS 3...

[tailpipe]

2.0 Bi-TFSI 356 ps.

I'm not sure this is right, Pretender. Audi has been very specific about the 2.5 litre five being retained I can think of seven good reasons why it might be used again:

1. People have been buying RS3 over the S4, precisely because of five cylinder engine, I know this because I'm one of them. It is very popular. It's not just the performance, but the whole aural experience. It harks back to Audi's origins too, so is bang-on brand
2. The RS3 is the most successful RS car Audi has made so far. Why change a winning formula?
3. Audi needs to sell more cars with this engine to amortise the R&D cost - and why not if there is genuine demand?
4. There is considerable scope to develop this engine further, giving it more power and less emissions - someone (possibly Qisha) posted a video of bench test that got more than 700 bhp out of it. Incredible.
5. There is also scope to lighten it, so that it weighs not much more than a 2.0-litre in-line four. Right now, it is a heavy lump that makes the RS3 quite nose heavy.
6. To launch an RS3 with anything less than five cylinders would be a step down versus the current model, moreover, it would be less differentiated versus the forthcoming AMG A-Class - a bad move IMHO. As far as I am concerned, I would prefer to hang on to my existing RS3. I think other owners would concur.
7. At the end of the day, the RS3 delivers near Ferrari-levels performance for 1/3rd of the price. You can chuck it through a corner in way that you cannot with any other RS model. A friend with a Ferrari also has an RS3 and says he can't believe how good it is or how cheap it is.

Even biased BMW-paid avowed Audi-haters like Chris Harris cannot dampen buyers' enthusiasm for the RS3. It was meant to be limited to 2,500 examples in the UK. I believe they've sold at least 5,000. Worldwide, it's apparently nearer 20,000 - which is considerably more than the TT-RS as well as the BMW 1-Series M.

Finally, there are rumours that the 2.5-litre five-cylinder engine may make its way into the next S4 and next RS4. If there is a good reason to use a bi-turbo four, then I'd certainly be interested to know it. Of course, VW moved the Golf R32 from a V6 to a 4 and it still sold well. But, look at the number of people who sold their Golf R's to get RS3s or who bought RS3s instead, again the Golf R was a car I considered.

[PANZER]

The five cylinder is a special engine.

[AndyBG]

2.5 T stays with RS 3, in future, like 2020 MY, it will/could be 2.0 Bi-T.
S4/5 and RS 4/5 will come with next gen' 3.0 T (turbocharged not supercharged)...

That is what I expect.

[The Pretender]

The 2.5TFSI will not be use in front longitudinal layout. (it could find his way into the next R8 as new base engine)
One of the reasons the "quattro Concept" is cancelled because of the longitudinal 5 cylinder engine and EuroNcap.
The 2.5 is insane heavy with 183 Kg, that is even more then the old 3.2 V(r)6 lump from the past. (there are even V8 engines that weigh less)
The only reason the RS3 is selling well is because it's a Audi (very popular brand to have, like Apple), it performs well, has 4WD making it a all season car to bring the kids to school, it a 5-door hachback, and it has a autogearbox, something every average driver choose these days.

[ZeroCool]

but the A3 is not longitudinal...so no reason for them not to use it...

[The Pretender]

But it's a very heavy engine, so it's a S3 with 40 Kg more up front because of the engine.
The 5 cylinder only have a future IMHO if Audi drop the iron cylinder block, and change to something much lighter.

[tailpipe]

But it's a very heavy engine, so it's a S3 with 40 Kg more up front because of the engine.
The 5 cylinder only have a future IMHO if Audi drop the iron cylinder block, and change to something much lighter.

:hahahehe:

Some kind of alloy for the engine block could usefully reduce engine weight by 20-30 kg, no? Factor in a further 80 kg diet versus the current RS3 and a 2014 RS3 weighing 100-120 kg less than current one with 408 bhp would be an interesting car.

Pretender, can you tell me where Audi is with Haldex Gen IV / Gen V?

[The Pretender]

400+ hp hot hatches that will be the day.
360 hp with 100 kg less weight will just do IMHO.

[Joker]

The 2.5L is an impressive engine from a performance perspective but it's heavy for it's dimensions and capacity, I believe this is to do with what the 2.5L was originally based on (US spec VW engine). If Audi did develop a new block for the head then it's weight could drop dramatically.

[tailpipe]

The 2.5L is an impressive engine from a performance perspective but it's heavy for it's dimensions and capacity, I believe this is to do with what the 2.5L was originally based on (US spec VW engine). If Audi did develop a new block for the head then it's weight could drop dramatically.

My thoughts entirely. If this engine is to be used more widely, giving it a lighter block makes complete sense. As a concept it works very well. Fives are the new V6s and possibly the new V8s too. If you can package 350-400 bhp in an engine with less than 200 g/km emissions, that returns ~40 mpg and weighs the same as 4-pot, then you're doing very well indeed.

Pretender, I note that the Audi A3 Sedan concept from last year had a five with 400 bhp. Of course, that doesn't mean it will make production. As you suggest, a 360 bhp - 100 kg = Huge grin.

[Joker]

If you really want to know how powerful the next RS3 will be then wait to see what Mercedes and BMW bring us with their AMG and M models, Audi don't offer more than is needed to remain competitive, none of them now. So with this I believe The Pretender is right with his prediction of 100kg less and 360-380hp tops, the only place we differ is the engine under the hood because I just don't see a 2L engine in there no matter how many turbos it has.

[The Pretender]

Pretender, I note that the Audi A3 Sedan concept from last year had a five with 400 bhp. Of course, that doesn't mean it will make production. As you suggest, a 360 bhp - 100 kg = Huge grin.
That is a paper number.

[PANZER]

But it's a very heavy engine, so it's a S3 with 40 Kg more up front because of the engine.
The 5 cylinder only have a future IMHO if Audi drop the iron cylinder block, and change to something much lighter.

The 2.5TFSI already have atleast the crankcase made from compacted graphite iron (CGI) by Sintercast technology some sources says the whole block is CGI.
Its a first for petrol engines the advantages of CGI is that its stronger lighter more durable than grey cast iron and aluminium.

http://www.sintercast.com/

[tailpipe]

That is a paper number.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-yU-g6ljE&list=FLgezyKOe8pRCvXyRyl3RnCA&index=41&feature=plpp_video

720 bhp from 2.5-litre five cylinder engine. That's a real number. Based on this, 400 bhp would easy.

Panzer,

At present, the 2.5-litre five has a an engine block made from vermicular-graphite cast iron providing 450 N/mm2 of tensile strength. While this solution is lighter than ordinary cast iron, it's still very heavy. The entire engine weighs more than the previous narrow V6 3.2 litre unit used in previous top-end Golfs. If Audi were to give the 2.5-litre five a die-cast aluminium engine block - which the 2.0-litre EA888 has just received, then I suspect that the weight saving would be significant.

[JavierNuvolari]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-yU-g6ljE&list=FLgezyKOe8pRCvXyRyl3RnCA&index=41&feature=plpp_video

720 bhp from 2.5-litre five cylinder engine. That's a real number. Based on this, 400 bhp would easy.

Panzer,

At present, the 2.5-litre five has a an engine block made from vermicular-graphite cast iron providing 450 N/mm2 of tensile strength. While this solution is lighter than ordinary cast iron, it's still very heavy. The entire engine weighs more than the previous narrow V6 3.2 litre unit used in previous top-end Golfs. If Audi were to give the 2.5-litre five a die-cast aluminium engine block - which the 2.0-litre EA888 has just received, then I suspect that the weight saving would be significant.

You just made my day. Fantastic video, fire breathing R5 FTW!

[The Pretender]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-yU-g6ljE&list=FLgezyKOe8pRCvXyRyl3RnCA&index=41&feature=plpp_video

720 bhp from 2.5-litre five cylinder engine. That's a real number. Based on this, 400 bhp would easy.


That engine have nothing to do with a TT RS engine.
It is a cut in half V10 with a oversized turbo.
There are even pictures of it when in proces of doing that.

[The Pretender]

Some quotes from other forums:

"With the 2.5TFSI Bi Turbo expected to produce 430PS then we should see over 500PS from the 3.0 bi-TFSI BiTurbo?"

"Acccording to Audi's LRR reviews it has passed design constraints and has been built and tested and is due to be launched in late 2013?"

[The Pretender]

Not that i think a Bi-Turbo 5 cylinder will work though.
But it could be a electric Bi-Turbo like we see with the TDI's

http://cdn3.worldcarfans.co/2012/9/20/big/12333376131816933966.jpg

[ZeroCool]

electric turbo is the future IMO..

[PANZER]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-yU-g6ljE&list=FLgezyKOe8pRCvXyRyl3RnCA&index=41&feature=plpp_video

720 bhp from 2.5-litre five cylinder engine. That's a real number. Based on this, 400 bhp would easy.

Panzer,

At present, the 2.5-litre five has a an engine block made from vermicular-graphite cast iron providing 450 N/mm2 of tensile strength. While this solution is lighter than ordinary cast iron, it's still very heavy. The entire engine weighs more than the previous narrow V6 3.2 litre unit used in previous top-end Golfs. If Audi were to give the 2.5-litre five a die-cast aluminium engine block - which the 2.0-litre EA888 has just received, then I suspect that the weight saving would be significant.

What i meant with my post that its a pretty new casting technique which could be used to lower the weight if they make the block thinner not sure if the material in its self is lighter.
A aluminium block could possible make the engine lighter but it could also make engine weaker ,and from which source of info did you get that the 2.0 EA888 engine have a aluminium block? i have read that it has a ordinary Grey cast iron block.

I agree that the 2.5TFSI should weight less than the 3.2 VR6 but what is the 3.2 VR6 weight? And are they spec with the same components generator,ac compressor,servo pump ect? and remember that the 2.5TFSI has a turbo to but of course also 1 cyl less.
And compacted graphite iron is the same thing as vermicular-graphite cast iron but you maybe already know that?

[tailpipe]

What i meant with my post that its a pretty new casting technique which could be used to lower the weight if they make the block thinner not sure if the material in its self is lighter.
A aluminium block could possible make the engine lighter but it could also make engine weaker ,and from which source of info did you get that the 2.0 EA888 engine have a aluminium block? i have read that it has a ordinary Grey cast iron block.

I agree that the 2.5TFSI should weight less than the 3.2 VR6 but what is the 3.2 VR6 weight? And are they spec with the same components generator,ac compressor,servo pump ect? and remember that the 2.5TFSI has a turbo to but of course also 1 cyl less. And compacted graphite iron is the same thing as vermicular-graphite cast iron but you maybe already know that?

Panzer,

I am wrong. The EA211 has a cast aluminium engine block. The EA888 Gen. 3 still has a cast iron one. Apologies. The weight reduction comes from reducing the wall thickness to 3 mm (whereas other competitors who still use cast iron blocks are at about 5-6 mm, i.e double the weight. Structural integrity is maintained through a new engine casting technique (upright pouring instead of flat pouring).

See attached presentation on VW Group engine strategy:

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/muupublic/share/18TFSI.pdf

http://www.cargroup.org/assets/speakers/presentations/40/schmidt_oliver.pdf

I still think there is scope to reduce weight of inline five. But will Audi spend what is needed to do it?

[PANZER]

Panzer,

I am wrong. The EA211 has a cast aluminium engine block. The EA888 Gen. 3 still has a cast iron one. Apologies. The weight reduction comes from reducing the wall thickness to 3 mm (whereas other competitors who still use cast iron blocks are at about 5-6 mm, i.e double the weight. Structural integrity is maintained through a new engine casting technique (upright pouring instead of flat pouring).

See attached presentation on VW Group engine strategy:

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/muupublic/share/18TFSI.pdf

http://www.cargroup.org/assets/speakers/presentations/40/schmidt_oliver.pdf

I still think there is scope to reduce weight of inline five. But will Audi spend what is needed to do it?

Okay i thougt so.
Yeah it would be good if they can reduce the weight the five is a nice engine.

I find it a little funny that they have added port injection on the EA888 like Toyota has on their direct injecton engines i bet its because the carbon build up issue on the intake valves.
BMW has only direct injectors in their engines i have not heard that they have any problems with carbon build up issue on the intake valves maybe they use a better designed crankcase ventilation.