Chris Harris: BMW M135i vs Audi RS3

[Erik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2xwecTp91-o


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2xwecTp91-o

[tailpipe]

Hi Erik,

Thanks for posting. I saw this on You Tube yesterday. I love Chris Harris' reviews. He presents so well and his passion for cars comes across brilliantly. I only wish he was on the Top Gear Team, because he genuine knows his stuff. That said, the man is an Audi hater and his review here ignores the facts:

1. The RS3 beat the M135i on the track by a second despite what he called rampant understeer.
2. The RS3 beat the M135i in a straight-line drag race to 140 mph. The M135i only caught-up because the the RS3 has a speed limiter.
3. To spec the M135i to anything close to the RS3 very quickly takes the price well north of £30K and into RS3 territory.

What is also apparent from the video is that the RS3 cabin is much, much quieter. You can barely hear Harris describe the M135i because noise intrusion is so bad at high revs.

Ultimately, Harris' review misses the point of the RS3: it is NOT a track-day special and was never conceived as such. Instead, it is a 365-day a year, all-weather machine. You can criticise it for not being more involving, i.e. not being able to control the car's cornering attitude with the throttle, but that's a subjective view of what constitutes fun. I love being able to crucify any other car on the road when conditions are really slippery. The sheer ability of any RS model to get from A to B at a blistering pace come rain, snow or sunshine is what makes it so desirable.

I am biased in my view, of course. But the fact that the RS3 is Audi's most successful RS model ever surely says something. Audi has sold many more RS3s than BMW has sold i-Series Ms. Finally, one thing I do agree on is that the RS3 is dated. But that's not a problem for me. The E-Type Jaguar is dated - but it is still pure class. So is the RS3. Having just seen the new A3 Sportback and the the new S3 coupe, things are looking very good for the next RS3.

[AndyBG]

And what happends when you get M135i xDrive, and there is one...

I think that these two cars are uncomparable, current S3 is proper rival for curent M135i/M135i xDrive, but I'm afraid that in that case also, result could be even more in favour of BMW.

At the end, we have to addmit that BMW and Audi provide simmilar numbers, but very different cars, its all down to that what customer/buyer/driver wants from its car...

P.S.

I never saw Chriss Harris as a "Audi hater", his Audis reviews are OK, if I remember correct, his review of B8 RS 4 Avant is very afirmative.
The guy just loves rear wheel drive cars, and thats it...

Hope I didn't ofended you TP, RS 3 is brutal car, just different from BMW.

[Joker]

the man is an Audi hater and his review here ignores the facts:

1. The RS3 beat the M135i on the track by a second despite what he called rampant understeer.
2. The RS3 beat the M135i in a straight-line drag race to 140 mph. The M135i only caught-up because the the RS3 has a speed limiter.
3. To spec the M135i to anything close to the RS3 very quickly takes the price well north of £30K and into RS3 territory.

Hater is a bit harsh don't you think, the man just love being able to control handling with the use of it's throttle and it's just unfortunate few AWD cars offer the kind of level you get with a potent RWD.

Next:
1. He mentioned the RS3 was faster on the flying lap but he just said it wasn't enjoyable.
2. The M135i caught up before either car hit the limiter. The M135i has a little less output wastage from it's drivetrain and it might also be a bit more aerodynamic too.
3. He did mention the car he was testing was closer in spec and price to the RS3 but his point was if you don't want all these luxuries then the M135i works out to be great value.


What is also apparent from the video is that the RS3 cabin is much, much quieter. You can barely hear Harris describe the M135i because noise intrusion is so bad at high revs.

Yeah I noticed this too, quite shocked at just how noisy the M135i was but the engine did make a cracking sound when pushed, might become tiresome though.


Ultimately, Harris' review misses the point of the RS3: it is NOT a track-day special and was never conceived as such. Instead, it is a 365-day a year, all-weather machine. You can criticise it for not being more involving, i.e. not being able to control the car's cornering attitude with the throttle, but that's a subjective view of what constitutes fun. I love being able to crucify any other car on the road when conditions are really slippery. The sheer ability of any RS model to get from A to B at a blistering pace come rain, snow or sunshine is what makes it so desirable.

Giving the choice of either I would probably pick the RS3 because of it's all weather ability but if BMW offered the M135i xDrive here then that decision would become a hell of a lot trickier.


I am biased in my view, of course. But the fact that the RS3 is Audi's most successful RS model ever surely says something. Audi has sold many more RS3s than BMW has sold i-Series Ms. Finally, one thing I do agree on is that the RS3 is dated. But that's not a problem for me. The E-Type Jaguar is dated - but it is still pure class. So is the RS3.

Price is king, the cheapest of any model will almost always be the biggest seller.


Having just seen the new A3 Sportback and the the new S3 coupe, things are looking very good for the next RS3.
Indeed all the signs are pointing to an incredible next RS3.:jlol:

[AndyBG]

New S3
2.0 T R4 - 300 ps, 350 Nm
0-100km/h: 5.1s

vs.

M135i xDrive
3.0 T R6 - 320 ps, 450 Nm
0-100km/h: 4.7s

Now it makes me very courious to see these two head to head...

[andreadebi]

I add also:
It's true that the Haldex benefits the audi from a standing start but after penalizes dissipating more power than rwd
rs3 weighs almost 150 kg more than the M135i
are we sure the bmw engine has "only" 320hp?

let's see how will handle the m135i xdrive(will lose for sure some handling-purity) vs (old)rs3...waiting for the new rs3 ;)

[tailpipe]

Hope I didn't ofended you TP, RS 3 is brutal car, just different from BMW.

Not at all. Whenever someone attacks a car you own and live with on a long-term basis rather than just testing it for a day and trashes it, it always ruffles a few feathers.

Is there really a M135i with X-drive? I would almost try it, but I can't live with the 1-Series looks. It is so ugly owners should be required to get planning permission before parking it.

[The Pretender]

Haldex is just a shitty system, fancy front wheel drive nothing more.
I would not want the RS3 for free.

[The RS6]

Lol.....

[AndyBG]

Is there really a M135i with X-drive? I would almost try it, but I can't live with the 1-Series looks

Yes, there is... Three and five door. All BMW Mperformance cars, wich is direct strike at Audi S cars will be equiped with only or optional xDrive.

Here is link on BMW.de page where you can see the specs' of 1 series including M135i xDrive...

http://www.bmw.de/de/de/newvehicles/1series/3door/2012/showroom/allfacts/compare.html


Haldex is just a shitty system, fancy front wheel drive nothing more.
I would not want the RS3 for free.

Personaly, I would allways go for longitudal engine layout over tranverse...

BTW, one thing has to be said, and that is, BMW M135i has 3.0 T 6 cilinder engine, and that is advantage over, in this case, 2.5 T 5 cilinder and even more so against its natural rival curent S3 with 2.0 T 4 cilinder...

[andreadebi]

Any possibility to see mounted the Sport rear differential also in the next RS3?

All the audi with that are praised, above all current A6 C7

[RXBG]

harris sleeps in bmw underwear and sucks his thumb.

[AndyBG]

This morning I stumbeld up on AutoBild SportsCars mag, 09/'12 issue, and guess what test they have inside!? :D

M135i vs RS 3...! :D

Problem is, my german is on 0 years level, so I don't have a clue what their verdict is! :(

[Erik]

Mr Harris so much doesn't want to like the RS3...

[AndyBG]

So, here it is...
If someone wants/can, please give us some highlights from this test trough these pic's...

[Joker]

Any possibility to see mounted the Sport rear differential also in the next RS3?

All the audi with that are praised, above all current A6 C7

I wonder is that even possible, the Haldex unit is mounted at the rear already. Maybe all we can expect is some form of an eLSD that Haldex already offer.

Anyway all I have ever wanted from Audi is a more balanced chassis, understeer is fine in small amounts as its an early warning system that the chassis has run out of ideas but the problem that almost all AWD cars suffer is their inability to shift the power rearward to balance the amount of understeer you get. Fix this and you have a GTR on your hands and that's an Audi I would kill for.

[AndyBG]

And, little bit closer...

[AndyBG]

More of article...

[AndyBG]

And, conclusion...

[AndyBG]

And some tech' features... :)

[The Pretender]

harris sleeps in bmw underwear and sucks his thumb.
But in this case he has a valid point and is right about the RS3.

[AndyBG]

Can someone PLEASE tell me what german article says!!! :)

[The Pretender]

In big lines opposed from wat Chris says about the RS3 drive.
But also that the M135i keep up very well and that the next S3 have a big challenge on his hands with the M135i, and future M135i X-Drive.

[AndyBG]

So, acording to them, not that kind of dissapontment from Audi...?

[RXBG]

But in this case he has a valid point and is right about the RS3.

uuuum no.

[AndyBG]

BMW M135i lapping the 'Ring in 8 minutes and 5 seconds. What was the time for RS 3 or current S3...?

Qoute:

''Far from a perfect lap, still nice time. This car works extremely well on Nordschleife - it is fast, balanced and its handling is really sweet.
Bone stock, not a press car. Michelin Pilot SuperSport tires, 6 speed manual, driver: Pavel Janda.''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mfbvmahnIS8

[Joker]

BMW M135i lapping the 'Ring in 8 minutes and 5 seconds. What was the time for RS 3 or current S3...?

Qoute:

''Far from a perfect lap, still nice time. This car works extremely well on Nordschleife - it is fast, balanced and its handling is really sweet.
Bone stock, not a press car. Michelin Pilot SuperSport tires, 6 speed manual, driver: Pavel Janda.''

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mfbvmahnIS8

Sportauto did it in 8:20 with the RS3 and 8:15 for the 1M Coupe so both are a far bit off the M135i and I can't see the S3 getting too close either.

[AndyBG]

So, this 8:05s looks fantastic... Its quicker than 987 Cayman S!

[Joker]

Can't remember whether it was VW or Audi claiming their new front diff improved the ring time by 8 seconds per lap but if it does indeed make this amount of difference then maybe I was a little quick to dismiss the S3.

P.S. on watching the lap it's not the entire lap of the track which Sportauto post in their Supertests so you might need to add another 5-7 seconds.

[s3dbw]

This is a BTG (bridge to gantry) laptime, the video even says so in its title! The laptime for a complete lap would take a bit longer

[AndyBG]

This is a BTG (bridge to gantry) laptime, the video even says so in its title! The laptime for a complete lap would take a bit longer

You were wright, but know we have proper 'Ring time, its 8:18s! Two seconds faster than ''old'' RS 3, they are close. Still, this car is direct oponent of current S3, and I would like to see its time.
Sport Auto did it...

http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/12/18/bmw-m135i-at-nurburgring-nordschleife-818-minutes-lap/

[tailpipe]

Since the M135i is newer, you'd expect it to knock the RS3 off its perch. The truth is that the reason why the M135i beats the RS3 is because it is much lighter. They've stripped out a lot of stuff such as soundproofing material. i believe the car was RWD not AWD too, which would also save weight. However, the M135i cabin transmits a lot of road, wind and engine noise to the occupants. Not a nice place to be for long periods of time.

Despite this factory fettling, the 'true' M135i ring time isn't as fast as first suggested and quite near that of the 'old RS3' as AndyBG notes.

I expect the next RS3 to comprehensively beat the M135i. The new front diff should certainly make a contribution, but quattro Gmbh is doing a lot of work on the 2.5 litre five. That's what i am looking forward to.

[AndyBG]

M135i that achieved this time was RWD with manual gearbox and street tires, acording to the source of this info'...
Still, I'm VERY interested in current S3 time!!!

When you are talking about stronger 2.5 T, you probably came on some of these stories:

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2012/audi/audi-preps-five-pot-for-benz-battle-34242

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1081259_audi-upgrading-five-cylinder-engine-for-more-power-report

But, don't forget that BMW is preparing 1M replacement and M2, wich will basicly be the same cars...

[AndyBG]

This RS 3 doesn't have much problems with any car... :D

Sportec-Audi RS3 RS470:
Acceleration 0-200 kmh and braking 200-0 kmh
0-100 kmh: 3.8 s
0-200 kmh: 13.9 s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wsnLfhQRdC8