Remember 'Special Sauce?'

[mgoblue]

After a 3 month wait to get into EPL, I left her in Tony's hands on Friday. This came about after having it on a local dyno at the end of May, and finding that it was very running lean up top. The plan for this week is to make sue that the engine is healthy, some dyno time for Tony to evaluate the need for larger injectors, upgrading if need be, and then finally the final tune. I'll post the progress along the way!

[na1mt]

Always said that car needed to be custom tuned and not just flashed. Good luck with it, keep us posted on progress.

[nistah]

Are you the new owner of Special Sauce? If yes please let us know & advise how she is doing!

[speedtrapped]

Ron, as far as I knew, the car was Custom tuned by Doug/dion on their Maha dyno with dahlback rep. In fairness to dion, he said he didn't think the dahlback guy knew what he was doing. I def felt, the dyno chart that came with that car was BS, cause the car didn't feel any faster then when I had it stage 2 with eurocharged. Given their was bigger turbos, bigger fuel pump, and FPR....I never understood the car lean condition. Bad tune, likely ..but if u run more boost you run more fuel....bigger injectors. Tony will transform that car.

[ben916]

AH!!! she is back!!!! nice!

[mgoblue]

I am, I bought it from Stephen in the spring...she'll be doing a lot better in about a week

[MaxRS6]

Look forward to the updates- Good luck with the project!

[mgoblue]

EPL had the car on the dyno this morning and did the typical leaning out at ~4500 rpm, so they put their tune in, and it did the same thing. They threw a fuel pressure gauge on to confirm that this was hardware related. So a new stock Rs6 fuel pump is on order...

[lswing]

Have them run an injector duty cycle test also, you might be maxing out the stock injectors...or they could be dirty. Don't think you want them above 80% I believe. Interesting you go lean at 4,500, that's when my boost falls off as the turbos spool out, but the fuel mix stays the same. Do you know the fuel percentages being added under boost?

[4everRS]

Subscribed (interested to see what Tony can do)

[speedtrapped]

as I know he may be in the dark on some parts. When I bought the wreck, Dion had forgotten to take the bosch 044 fuel pump out of wreck, and billed me for a new one. It was installed 'brand new' march 11'. I would be interested to hear what Tony says about the fuel pump, once removed.

this was what it was suppossed to be.....
http://www.audiandvwpartsforsale.com/c5_rs6_dahlback_fule_pump.html

[mgoblue]

as I know he may be in the dark on some parts. When I bought the wreck, Dion had forgotten to take the bosch 044 fuel pump out of wreck, and billed me for a new one. It was installed 'brand new' march 11'. I would be interested to hear what Tony says about the fuel pump, once removed.

this was what it was suppossed to be.....
http://www.audiandvwpartsforsale.com/c5_rs6_dahlback_fule_pump.html

I've already asked Rich to tell me specifically what pump is in there once they pull it.

[speedtrapped]

any update on fuel pump?

[mgoblue]

Not yet, they sent the injectors out to be "dynamically flowed and modified," once they come back they're going to work on the fuel delivery all at once...hopefully tomorrow.

[speedtrapped]

Ok, lmk I am very interested if it is fact the pump I paid for, or it was defective, or hopefully not- OEM rs6, ie never changed out.

[mgoblue]

The fuel pump was pulled this morning...I'll just copy and paste from the email I received


The length of the 044 pump doesn't allow for an in-tank install on the C5... There's just no way to mount these in there for proper pick up, however, this is honestly one of the poorest of attempts we've seen at this.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c148/jeepandm/IMG_5148.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c148/jeepandm/IMG_5147.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c148/jeepandm/IMG_5145.jpg

[SteveKen]

So the logical question is: "Does an 'improper' pickup cause the lean condition, or is it just an ancillary issue?"

"Root cause" is what you're after. Hopefully it get sorted out without throwing tons of cash at potential red herrings.

[mgoblue]

the new fuel pump and larger injectors should do it, hopefully it's back on the dyno this week to confirm that though.

[ben916]

The fuel pump was pulled this morning...I'll just copy and paste from the email I received



http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c148/jeepandm/IMG_5148.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c148/jeepandm/IMG_5147.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c148/jeepandm/IMG_5145.jpg

That is a damn hack job, right there!
Nothing like using a plumbers copper water line for your hard flex line.

Someone needs their ass kicked for that...

[SteveKen]

That is a damn hack job, right there!
Nothing like using a plumbers copper water line for your hard flex line.

Someone needs their ass kicked for that...

I'm pretty sure that's fuel resistant plastic and is stock. B5 S4 for reference:

<img src="http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc165/b5a4gt28/016-7.jpg">

[marklar182]

Alright guys back up a minute.

This is a Bosch 044 pump from INSIDE the tank, correct?

Because if so this is all kinds of f'd up because that is the transfer pump. The Bosch 044 pump should be installed in place of the fuel pump that is mounted to the underside of the car. The one close to the fuel filter.

Unless you have 2 Bosch 044 pumps (one inside, one outside), then the problem is you are feeding the stock pump lots of fuel, but the stock pump can't do anything with it above what it normally does......leading to your lean condition.

[speedtrapped]

Well that doesn't surprise me. I mean that in a sense that I was constantly looking for lean conditions, and was told by dion that the tuner " didn't knwo what he was doing." I spent $ on Bosch ev14, only to remove them, new MAFs, more $$$$. Sorry for this. Some know privately that dion and I don't talk anymore, and this had to do with quality of of some of the work. Hell I even called and spoke to dahlback directly and he was surprised I was reading lean....there are posts here.
I hope and know tony will straighten this out. Sorry for the hassle.
stephen

[AndrewNC]

The fuel line choice is the only thing they did right on that install. I would never use another 044 pump in-tank again. I went through two in my B5 S4 in 18 months and went to an RS4 unit. Perhaps they work great inline, but I had nothing but issues trying to run them in-tank.

[QuattroRS]

Ahhh red herrings aside. Has anyone looked into the fuel line size to determine if enough volume can flow to the 4.2tt when larger turbos are added? There is a formula out there to determine the flow/volume needed to supply x hp on a 4.2 platform.

Those fuel lines look very small in diameter. I just know what I had to do in other projects to supply ample fuel volume.

700hp is like feeding a hungry elephant

This reminds me about the RS owner in Dallas that had MTM dealer in FL do tons of upgrades just to find out that guy had no idea how to tune. No idea at all. Plain idiot.

[SteveKen]

Somewhat relevant/concurrent thread on the subject of fuel pumps in series, pump boosters, surge tanks . . .

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/505305-Inline-fuel-pump-run-in-series-with-in-tank-pump

[QuattroRS]

fuel pressure vs volume

graph it

love it

take a world class sprinter and make him take air in thru a 1/8in straw. At a given pressure you can try to cram more volume in the lungs but the volume is fixed at each pressure level due to the size of the straw. Make sense

We have a fpr with a fixed setting for pressure and if the lines are too small your volume is litterally capped.

Unless the pumps are unable to maintain the pressure the max volume is determined by the size of the lines.

Our fuel systems were desiged to flow enough fuel for 450hp. You wish to make 700hp? Better design a complete fuel delivery/return system that is capable of delivering volume.

[ben916]

fuel pressure vs volume

graph it

love it

take a world class sprinter and make him take air in thru a 1/8in straw. At a given pressure you can try to cram more volume in the lungs but the volume is fixed at each pressure level due to the size of the straw. Make sense

We have a fpr with a fixed setting for pressure and if the lines are too small your volume is litterally capped.

Unless the pumps are unable to maintain the pressure the max volume is determined by the size of the lines.

Our fuel systems were desiged to flow enough fuel for 450hp. You wish to make 700hp? Better design a complete fuel delivery/return system that is capable of delivering volume.

Perhaps a email/call to MRC in UK might be beneficial or even Gumpert???
IIRC, MRC had two fuel lines into the fuel rail (one line on each side but not isolated) for the C5 RS6 that make those crazy HP/TQ numbers.
Where is Amanda when we need her?

[mgoblue]

Ahhh red herrings aside. Has anyone looked into the fuel line size to determine if enough volume can flow to the 4.2tt when larger turbos are added? There is a formula out there to determine the flow/volume needed to supply x hp on a 4.2 platform.

Those fuel lines look very small in diameter. I just know what I had to do in other projects to supply ample fuel volume.

700hp is like feeding a hungry elephant



According to Rich at EPL, they've had good luck with the stock RS6 fuel pump on quite a few high HP applications.

[speedtrapped]

My understanding was the 044 runs in tandem on this application, unfortunately u trust a mechanic who says he had done original DBr stage 3 to install correctly on my set up, not the case and now u are having to deal, sorry. On bright side, and TTboost's had a tony tuned RS6 and great power .... I am sure tony will make great numbers even with stock fuel set up. On hi HP Porsche applications, ie 1000whp guys run stock pump in tank to reservoir then run 2 parrellell 044 with larger diameter fuel lines feeding each each rail.

[marklar182]

The 044 does run in tandom with the stock pump, he just put the 044 in the wrong place!

The 044 and a 5bar FPR will provide plenty of fueling to the rails.

[mgoblue]

The final tune is done

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c148/jeepandm/fax-001.jpg

[lswing]

The final tune is done, 486/607, I'll post the graph in a little bit

Good lord, monster numbers! Nice!!!

[4everRS]

That is f-ing CRAZY.

Bravo.

[Ruergard]

Some serious numbers. :thumb:

[lswing]

Hmmmm, that's crazy how the torque peaks so high that early. Might it be better to not hit so high, drop the boost a bit, and get that curve too elongate more with your hp? I'm amazed the bigger turbos hit full spool so quick, damn, amazing numbers indeed. Just thinking that a better matched curve might give you a better overall run, though might not knock your socks off as much:) Thanks for posting! Glad you've got an updated TC and Trans also, Level 14 it was?

[mgoblue]

They plan on road testing it for a few days and tweak from there. I was more curious why the boost was tapering off, I like the numbers, but it's not quite as linear as I had imagined.

[ttboost]

Very impressive numbers. I knew that car had it in it. I've been to visit a couple times in the last week or two...Big turbos are 99.9% never linear. TQ always peaks early on turbo cars, then peeters out...as peak TQ is at peak spool.
IMO, Tony likes to tune on the conservative side, especially for a new customer, until he is comfortable with their driving habits. He will not deliver that car until it is perfect and HE is happy with it. There may or may not be power left on the table, but it might be for your own good for now. Congrats on your monster...it is good hands now...

[4everRS]

Alright, I'm still wrapping my mind around these numbers.

What exactly does this thing have besides the Dahlback hybrid turbos and down pipes?

camshaft upgrade? Thicker head gaskets? Injectors?

[SteveKen]

Alright, I'm still wrapping my mind around these numbers.

What exactly does this thing have besides the Dahlback hybrid turbos and down pipes?

camshaft upgrade? Thicker head gaskets? Injectors?

Yes, can you please recap what was done here.

From what I understand, you reverted back to stock fuel pumps, stock injectors (modified though?) and the rest of the Dahlback components?

Also, a lesson on the fueling on the RS6: From what I understand the in tank and out of tank fuel pumps run in parallel to one fuel line? The ECU changes the fuel supply pressure by running the pumps at 10 volts or 12 volts, depending on load, cold start, etc. Please correct me if I mis-read the RS6 study guide.

[lswing]

Yep, me thinks the dyno calibration is a bit high, as we know numbers vary a lot. Certainly impressive none the less! I get the impression it's the turbos and dp's also, maybe intake, but stock injectors running this much fuel for these power numbers seems a bit crazy when I've got mine maxed at 100hp less....give us the lowdown boys, just what has she got? Thanks for giving us a great machine to discuss!

[ttboost]

I think it's all turbo and intake piping.... My car made 400/460 on the same dyno with just a flash. Not sure what you mean regarding the dyno "calibration", but EPL's dyno is between 50-60whp down from Dynojet. This is probably the most powerful RS6 I've seen around here so far. There is another one that is close, but it is a Meth car...can't imagine this car with Meth...

[mgoblue]

All that was done at EPL was the new RS6 fuel pump, they actually stuck with stock injectors. When I dropped the car off I expected that we'd have the conversation after they got the car on the dyno, between new 52 and 72 lb injectors, Tony decided that he'd just have the stock injectors cleaned (they were full of carbon build up) and they also had them 're-ported' (which is probably the wrong term), to EPL's specs. Rich wouldn't divulge what the specs are, which is slightly irritating since we hadn't discussed this option before they did it, but if they work efficiently then I really don't care. These two upgrades resolved the lean issue.

The car does have a Snow meth injection.

[nistah]

The car does have a Snow meth injection.


I fondly recall special sacuce pre- transformation, very sweet & clean ride. Seems like you have a monster beast on your hands, congrats!!! Stephen told me the new owner is located in Fairfax...I'm in Tyson's and would love the opportunity to get our beasts together for a play date in a parking lot so I can see Special Sauce in all it's glory...let me know if you are indeed local and would be up for that

:cheers:

[mgoblue]

I fondly recall special sacuce pre- transformation, very sweet & clean ride. Seems like you have a monster beast on your hands, congrats!!! Stephen told me the new owner is located in Fairfax...I'm in Tyson's and would love the opportunity to get our beasts together for a play date in a parking lot so I can see Special Sauce in all it's glory...let me know if you are indeed local and would be up for that

:cheers:

Sounds great, I'm actually in N Arlington

[MaxRS6]

^Congrats on getting it sorted and a monster back on the road!

[speedtrapped]

Wow, so happy for you. I had actually booked and cxl'ed tony 2x before I sold her, you should be glad I didn't... I know it cost you some extra, but that car makes what I hoped would had it been built correctly and tuned correctly. As far what the car contains, hybrids, 3" cat less DP's, 100cell cats, milltek. As he mentioned fuel pump, modified injectors, meth kit, did he tune in for meth?(it wasn't when I had it, just keep IAT down, and maybe kept m,e from blowing up engine from mechanics mistakes causing lean.) outside of that stock, stock, stock. And like mike said, Tony's dyno is dubbed heart breaker, his mustang # are always below a dynojets. Congrats!!

[kismetcapitan]

I have a lot of experience with 044 pumps; I used to run two in-tank on my old Skyline, in parallel. Using a pump to feed each end of a fuel rail is common; using checkvalves isn't. I built my Skyline's fuel system from Aeromotive components; maintaining fuel pressure is always the killer, and that's good news that the stock system, once restored, was able to provide enough fueling for you!

if that's 480awhp, you're getting mighty close to 600 at the crank, possibly more as I don't know what the average hp losses with automatic transmissions are.

[na1mt]

Drivetrain loss on these cars is probably somewhere between 22%-25%. A Mustang dyno can be made to read anything the operator wants it to.

[speedtrapped]

Ron that can be said for any dyno, but EPL has a pretty long history with his results, google is your friend. Bigger turbos, bigger breathing, more fuel, it's not hard to figure out the car properly tuned is fast, and yes I bet faster then your GIAC tuned RS6.... Sorry buddy, it is what is.

[MaxRS6]

Yuk Yuk Yuk.chuckle chuckle...:)

I need another tequila shot- the previous one just went through nasal passages....Keep visitin 'ol friend..

[na1mt]

Ron that can be said for any dyno, but EPL has a pretty long history with his results, google is your friend. Bigger turbos, bigger breathing, more fuel, it's not hard to figure out the car properly tuned is fast, and yes I bet faster then your GIAC tuned RS6.... Sorry buddy, it is what is.

Was not in fact questioning the integrity of EPL's tuning abilities or results, I was merely answering a question......but it is pretty well known that a Mustang dyno is easier to fudge than per say a dyno jet......google can also be your friend grasshopper

[na1mt]

Any dyno that can recieve input for weather corrections or weather stations can be used to manipulate numbers. I understand that Mustang dyno's, since there are more variables, a user can manipulate the numbers in various ways. Two being the vehicle weight and horsepower at 50mph values, but those are printed on the reports, so if they're skew'd, then it's right there in black and white. The second would be to change the "air" under the weather correction data, and the third would be to change the parasitic loss multiplier. Changing the last one however, will drastically effect the amount of load on the dyno, resulting in different horsepower levels.


........just sayin'

[ben916]

Here is pre Special Sauce when she lived in Orange County California
We had Audi5000cstq, Benman, DHall1, DuckWingDuck (the owner of pre Special Sauce)

Part 1 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCbEt7_DHXU

[ben916]

Part 2 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRJEXvHsUMQ

[ttboost]

I think it is WAY closer to 30% DL loss...

[speedtrapped]

Point is, there is always someone who questions results of a dyno, always. There are those who believe dyno's are worthless. Hell like I said, KMD aka Dion and his partner in an earlier form before drive autoworks had a MAHA dyno, and easily tweaked the number of special sauce, cause no way in hell the car was as fast as their dyno numbers stated. But KMD is long gone, and EPL thrives, tony has huge following on 996tt crowd, I bet you the car is one of the fastest out there.

[ttboost]

I'm pretty sure it is the most powerful RS6 he's had on his dyno...and he's had meth cars up there...

[JRS-RS6]

Subscribing to this thread.... maybe one of these days I can get my car to Tony too.

[4.2Crew]

"....maybe one of these days I can get my car to Tony too."

Just got me some long-distance second-hand Tony a few days ago!

Had the EPL rep in MN flash my virgin ECU on Friday.... It totally awakened the car!... Slightly better throttle response down low and an absolute power-rush between 3-6000rpms! The local rep is sending me the base and tuned VAG logs---will post when I receive'em.

[mgoblue]

I'm pretty sure it is the most powerful RS6 he's had on his dyno...and he's had meth cars up there...

Really? It sounded to me that he had had some real monsters on the dyno before, but hey, if not I'm happy to have that distinction!

[ttboost]

I'm local and a good customer, but I don't hang out there much to see what comes in everyday..just get the highlights...I have seen a few in the shop over the past few years, but no real power monsters to speak of...Tony does a lot of remote tuning and there are some monsters out around the country...

[mgoblue]

Rich got back to me this morning and told me that the wastegate springs were only tightened to 5, thus the reason why the boost is tapering off...so that answers that question.

[mgoblue]

I'm flying up Friday to pick her up, can't wait!

[yagey]

Rich got back to me this morning and told me that the wastegate springs were only tightened to 5, thus the reason why the boost is tapering off...so that answers that question.

is there another dyno run with wastegate springs fixed?

[mgoblue]

No he told me its an engine pull

[ttboost]

I think I speak for the masses when I say "UPDATE/OPINIONS?

[mgoblue]

It's so nice having this car back, I had been driving my 68' FJ40 for the last month...it was getting a little old (and cold, with no doors or roof). But the car is a night and day difference, not just the power of course, but the drive-ability is so much better. Before taking it to EPL, I never thought the tranny and engine were in sync, I felt like I was constantly manually up shifting or down shifting, they're in harmony now. I drive the car gingerly, but when you get in the throttle it bears down and just launches, the torque...wow. I ran into two different E92 M3's on the way back last Friday; with each one we had a quick little run, I'm sure both were mostly stock, but this car only needed 3/4 throttle to walk away from both - felt good. Although what feels even better, and I guess an unexpected bonus, my gas mileage is considerably better :applause:

[ttboost]

That's pretty much the exact report I heard..just wanted to verify for everyone. This car has a history and this has been a long thread...and closure was warranted...
Congrats on having a spectacularly running car...EPL takes great pride in delivering that kind of service and support...Glad to hear yet another great experience...