RS6 vs. M5 - One Man's Opinion (VERY Long)

[oregonbob]

Before I can start this thread, I feel some background is in order. I bought my first BMW in 1995, an M3 coupe. Over the next seven years the following cars went in and out of my automotive stable: 1997 M3, 1997 540i, 2000 M5, 2001 X5 4.4, 2002 M5 and 2002 X5 4.6 (still own). I was in the final 25 in BMW’s Search for the Ultimate Driver. So, you see, I’ve been quite the BMW fan.

A good offer for the 2002 M5 sent that one on its way and it was replaced with a 2002 Audi A6 4.2 sport. I really wanted AWD for northwest winters and I wanted an automatic transmission. The A6 was a really nice car but no M5.

So, I complained to my dealer about the lack of “sport” in the A6 and the very sloppy shifting automatic. Eventually, they talked me into an RS6. And, almost a year later, the RS6 is now here. The dealer sold the A6 on consignment.

The RS6, M5, Mercedes E55 and even the Jaguar S-Type R are all very credible cars. In my opinion, they are all excellent machines aimed at slightly different markets. None of them are “bad” and, frankly, I could not care less which would “kill” which or which is faster to 60 mph. For my daily driving, performance wise, they are about equal. Since I don’t race my cars, .1 second or .1g lateral means nothing to me one way or another other than bragging rights. Since I’ve owned two M5’s and now the RS6 (but not the Mercedes or Jag), I’ll confine my opinions to the cars I know well.

The first thing I noticed when I drove the RS6 is how flat it corners. The DRC works – and it works very well. Forget skid pad numbers and transient response specs, the RS6 is flatter through corners than the M5 and easier to handle in everyday driving. It may or may not be true that the M5 is better at the track but I’ll take the way the RS6 corners any day for my daily driver. Big win for the RS6.

The second thing I noticed was the “surging” or “hesitation” the RS6 has just off idle. I’m sure this is a function of the turbos spooling up so, for off idle response, the nod goes to the M5 for its instantaneous response. However, at about 2000 rpms, my opinion changes. By then, the RS6 turbos are spinning and the response is not only instantaneous but far stronger than the M5. Must be the flat torque curve in the RS6. Call this one a tie.

Which brings me to the third point – Quattro. The M5 will oversteer if the throttle is engaged too heavily in a low gear. I drive single lane farm roads daily and about once per week in the rainy northwest winters, someone winds up in the field, sometimes upside down. So, when I hit the M5 to pass and feel the rear end trying to get in front of the front end, I have a sphincter muscle that gets a big workout. With the RS6, the car just pulls straight. No drama, just speed. It’s additive. The M5 may be better at the track but, for my daily driver, AWD is better than RWD. Big, big, big win for the RS6. This alone would cause me to choose an RS6 over an M5.

Manual vs. automatic. I can feel the flames from the M5 guys about the control a manual provides and how wimpy an automatic is. And, they are right. But, I never did get good with the M5 manual and even occasionally stalled it in traffic. My shifts were rough and sometimes embarrassing. OK, I’ll take some heat. I’m not Michael Andretti and don’t claim to be. But, the M5 manual was the most difficult manual I’d ever owned. I’m told there was some kind of pollution control device that changes the way the engine responds during gear changes. Maybe so. But, I never liked it and the manual was a major reason why I let the M5 go. After two years, it was time. The RS6 automatic is just what the doctor ordered for me despite not being as controllable as the manual. For me, another big win for the RS6. Others may disagree.

The E39 M5 and the C5 RS6 are about the same vintage (I think) but the M5 felt older and more dated. Let’s look at interior first. The M5’s felt cramped. I had to remove a clip to get the driver seat to go all the way back and, when I did so, there was very little leg room behind me. The RS6 seat has sufficient travel and a reasonable sized adult can fit behind me. However, both my M5’s had the beautiful luxury interior with leather covered dash and console. This was much nicer than the fake stuff in the RS6. I find the RS6 seats more comfortable, maybe because they don’t hold as tightly as the M5. Maybe I’m just getting old but the looser seats feel better even if they don’t hold as well. The parking brake in the RS6 will hit the center armrest if the armrest is down. What were the Audi designers thinking??? The navigation in the M5 beats the RS6 with its display and map but it is much slower to program and impossible to read with polarized sunglasses. The RS6 is visible with sunglasses. Still, neither car has a nav that can match Acura or Lexus. The RS6 Bose audio system is clearer and much simpler to operate than the M5 with tone controls and DSP (why both???). The M5 bass options kicks. No such option on the RS6. Cool carbon fiber available in the RS6; no such option in the M5. I like them both for different reasons with a slight nod to the RS6 for comfort and ergonomics.

As for exterior, I like the boxy look of the M5 and the quad exhaust was very cool. The RS6 is a little more bubble shaped but pleasing nonetheless. The RS6 black sound enhancing exhaust integrates nicely with the bumper for a cleaner look than the M5. I love the bulging fenders of the RS6 and the deep dish wheel look of the M5. My wife prefers the RS6 but, frankly, I like them both, again for different reasons. Call this one a tie.

Sound. Can anyone argue with the RS6 sound enhancing exhaust??? Nod to RS6.

Price. A lot has been said about the high price of the RS6. It did cost about $10,000 more than the M5 (both M5’s and the RS6 were optioned to the max). The RS6 came with Quattro, an automatic and DRC. For me, that’s worth the $10,000 right there.

If I had to do it all over again and if both the M5 and RS6 could be ordered new right now, I’d take the RS6 for Quattro, automatic and DRC. The rest is icing on the cake. The M5 is a great car; the RS6 is better suited to me.

Will a 500+ hp E60 M5 change my mind? Probably not. The RS6 is quick enough. Would a 500+ hp M5 with SMG and x-Drive get my attention. You betcha.

And then the next generation RS6 will come along and get my attention again. Isn’t this fun?

I hope you enjoyed reading these opinions.

Regards,

Bob

[nene]

That was one great write up.
Regardless of the outcome of your decision, I feel you were very honest in your opinion, and kept it as such.

I've never owned the M5, but been a BMW fan for many years, and still am. The M5 has always been a favorite of mine.

As you correctly stated, when it comes to all these power sedans, you really can't go wrong with any of them.

Thanks for your input!!!

[oregonbob]

Nene,

Thanks. I tried to be honest and fair. I am very happy you agree.

Bob

[Rally]

Great analysis Bob.
I definitely agree with all your points regarding the AWD, coming from the Pacific Northwest myself.
Hopefully Audi can create the same loyalty that you have with BMW over the years. I maintain your BMW level of loyalty with Audi because they have never let me down and continue to build excellent cars IMO.

[Bauer]

Bob,

Quite possiabilly one of the best write ups from someone who has OWNED both cars. It is easy for someone to state a very limitied opnion about a car they have driven and call it a full blown I don't like this or don't like that. There is really no way to tell unless you have owned the car and lived with it. I have driven an M5 and I think that they are fantastic cars with great balance but I have not owned one. Additionally, I have great respect for BMW and their motorsports programs they have been very impressive and consistant over the years.

I am however an Audi FREAK as my history of cas will show. Bob thank you for giving me/us a very through and intresting comparison of both cars.

:cheers:

[ZCD2.7T]

Wow! Bob, I almost want to call "TROLL!!!", because your post is so even-handed and rational!!! ;)

Instead, though, I'll just thank you for the most objective, realistic comparison of the real-world capabilities of these two awesome sedans that I've ever had the pleasure to read.

Thank you! :cheers:

:race:

[bilbozilla]

Amen. (Can I say that without bring religeous undertones to my statement? :) )

Brilliant write-up. Candid, concise, and well written. I appreciate your comments. I'll have my RS6 on the 18th or 19th of November - FINALLY. I don't think, however, anyone will want a comparison write-up between an Audi 225 TT roadster and the RS6. Mmm, the top doesn't come down in the RS6.

[AvusRS6]

Great write up! Prior to the the RS6, I was a HUGE BMW nut, even after owning the A6 4.2 (I hated this car). The M5 will be one of my TOP 5 of ALL TIME! I love the RS6 and can relate to a lot of what Bob had stated. The price of the RS6 was never an issue for me and like Bob, the Quattro alone was worth $10K for me.

The E60 M5 will be something to look forward to (but I have to admit that I'm not crazy about the E60 body) but I'm sure the BMW Engineers have a nice suprise for us!

[krm]

Thanks for the objective comparison, Bob. As a fanatic of both those wonderful performance sedans, I am glad to read that you have found the right one for you.

Thanks for your contribution. :cheers:

[Mal]

Great write up, which really highlights what I think is the RS6 greatest assett, in that is that it is so useable. It is safe and secure due to the AWD so in any conditions the car feels and is so sure footed that it hardly ever needs to employ its traction control systems. I have not owned an M5, but I have had a M3 and some other very powerful RWD cars which in the hands of most road drivers if your not really careful, in anything other than perfect conditions, can spend much of there time floundering around with the traction control limiting the power.

The RS6 just goes and that for me sums up its appeal. If you want a family car that is safe but still fast and fun there is nothing better, especially if you live in Europe and can get the Avant Estate.:addict:

[Erik]

Great write-up! :cheers:

According to sport auto which is the leading car magazine to test cars on Nürburgring, the RS6 is a little faste than the M5. :D

http://www.track-challenge.com/main_e.asp?useframe=comparison1d_e.asp?Car1=53%26C ar2=3

[Gustav]

Good writup :0: Interesting to read.

But I really like the manual in the M5 and if I would choose I may would go for a manual E60 M5 instead of an SMG.

I agree with you that the RS6 is very easy to get to know and it takes a short time feeling familiar with it. But I have my thoughts on the automaitc :MTM:

See you on www.m5board.com after Geneva in March :hihi:

Again, great writeup!

[Finnus]

Bob,

Great writeup. Thanks for taking the time to share it with us. One question: how do you find the M5 and RS6 compare relative to build quality and stability (daily driving and at higher speeds)? (OK, that was at least two questions rolled into one - LOL). Thanks,

Finnus

:cheers:
:addict: :addict: :addict:

[iconcls]

Originally posted by Gustav
See you on www.m5board.com after Geneva in March :hihi:


I am really looking forward to Geneva also, because that's where the B6 RS 4 may bow! ;)

[TheBrit]

Great write up, seems to be very even handed and honest.

[avdh]

Bob,

Excellent write up. No emotions just the facts.
I have to admit that I am not that objective :)

Gutav,

If BMW would come up with a decent AWD system in the new 5 Series/M5 than it could become an option....
For me Quattro is one of Audi's greatest asset and one of the reason I don't drive a BMW anymore.

Erik,

Did you notice on track challenge that the test for the Audi RS6 was done with 32 degrees Celsius! Bad for the ultimate performance :eek:
Whereas the M5's test was done at 10 degrees, the perfect temperature for testing a car. Cooll and no ice.

[Erik]

avdh,

Yes it's noted long time ago :)

[Benman]

A very unbiased and well written review. Thanks for sharing. As you put it, you really can't go wrong with any of these Beasts!:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Gustav]

Yup, BMW may have lost some customers. Maybe they should at least have it as an option, the M5x :hihi:

Mercedes E55 was built as a 4-wheel drive too a short while and I dont know how that sold. We had a discussion about 4WD and M5 but RWD is a cornerstone of the BMW M philosophy as I see it:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35898

[Klint]

Originally posted by Gustav
Yup, BMW may have lost some customers. Maybe they should at least have it as an option, the M5x :hihi:

RWD is a cornerstone of the BMW M philosophy as I see it:



G,

I actually agree with you on those points.. ;)

:cheers:

[oregonbob]

Finnus,

In my opinion, the build quality on both the M5 and RS6 are comparable. Both feel bank vault solid when closing doors, etc. and fit and finish on both is first rate. I like the paint better on my RS6 as it appears "deeper" but this may be due to the fact that my RS6 is Ebony Pearl and my M5's were Alpine White and Silver Metallic. Darker colors appear "deeper".

The M5 is very stable at high speed. Even its mighty engine doesn't produce much oversteer at high speed so the oversteer issues I wrote about don't apply. I haven't had the RS6 long enough to comment at high speed but it feels perfect up to 80 mph (fastest I've had it so far). At low speed, the RS6 feels very stable in the rain - more so than the M5.

By the way, I didn't mention braking ability of either car. The RS6 brakes are cool to look at but both cars stop very well. Neither fade in daily street driving.

Also, the M5 has one feature not available on the RS6: rain sensing wipers. Helpful in pacific northwest mist. Are you listening Audi???



Gustav,

I've been monitoring the M5 board for years. You're doing a great job there. I agree, some people prefer manual transmissions and, for them, the RS6 will not be a good choice.

I spoke with the 5 series/X5 product manager in Spartanburg several months ago about the E60 M5. (I was at the "Search for the Ultimate Driver" event for the US introduction of the E60.) We talked about an E60 M5 with SMG and he asked me, if it was available, would I buy one? So, to me, he all but confirmed the new M5 will have an SMG available.

I asked about traction for a 500hp V10 in a rear wheel drive sedan and suggested the use of the new X-Drive system now in the X5 and X3. Unlike the previous X5 system (DSC-X, 1/3 front drive and 2/3 rear drive), X-Drive is 100% rear drive until it detects slippage, then directs power to the front. It sounded to me like a great way to keep the M5 rear drive but add some Quattro-like capabilities when needed. He just nodded and said BMW has ways of dealing with the E60 M5 V10 power. I don't know if X-Drive will be available or not. Draw your own conclusion.

I will say this, if BMW offers an E60 with SMG and X-Drive, then they will negate two of the big advantages of the RS6 for me: Quattro and automatic. So, yes, if they do it, I may be writing the RS6 / E60 M5 comparison next year. :-) I'm on my dealers list for an E60 M5.


All,

Thanks for the positive comments. I don't post often but your positive responses are encouraging for me to do so more often.

Thanks.

Bob

[Bauer]

Bob,

With posts like that....keep em comming:cheers:

[Gustav]

oregonbob,

thanks for the compliments :)

I haven't read too much about x-drive and thought you meant i-drive :error: but that was not the case. Interesting if it happens!

[oregonbob]

Gustav,

An understandable mistake.

Personally, I-Drive is a big turn off to me. I'm a high tech guy (spent several years with Intel). Using a graphical user interface and a mouse does not scare me - but in a car??? I think this is a misuse of technology. In addition, my 2002 X5 4.6 STILL has some software gremlins BMW can't fix (although they do continue to try). Remember the early versions of MS-DOS and MS-Windows? In a car??? Thankfully, the E60 I-Drive is simplified from the 7 series I-Drive.

I think you'll be reading about X-Drive soon. I'm surpirised BMW hasn't hyped it more. From a marketing perspective, I-Drive offers the performance advantages of a RWD car with the security of AWD when needed. Sounds like a great plan to me.

Bob

[Gustav]

You mean X-drive ;)

I don't like i-drive at all either. Also the center "monitor" with the i-drive does not look good.


Originally posted by oregonbob
I-Drive offers the performance advantages of a RWD car with the security of AWD when needed. Sounds like a great plan to me.

Bob

[oregonbob]

Gustav,

You got me. I meant X-Drive.

I hate it when I'm wrong. :-)

Bob

[360M]

Having owned a 2001 M5, I have to agree with you about the clutch. It is definitely one of the most finicky clutches I've come across and has quite a long travel. You have to be very delicate in order to keep the shifts smooth.

Good job on the writeup.

[andyp]

Great write up thanks. I posted my brief comparison before and it largely agrees with yours. Here it is again:

I had a 2000 M5 for three years and in summary, I would compare as follows:

Ride: RS6=10, M5=10 ... both have an incredibly good balance between performance and comfort.

Seats: RS6=10, M5=9

Handling: RS6=10, M5=9 ... M5 understeers ealier than the RS6. RS6 stays flatter in the corners.

Steering: RS6=10, M5=10 (in sport mode) ... love it in both cars

Brakes: RS6=10, M5=8 ... the stopping differences aren't so different (at least 60-0, RS6 has better 80-0), but the RS6 pedal feel inspires much more confidence ... more like the E36 M3.

Performance: RS6=10, M5=9 ... I like the more instantaneous response of the M5 but the turbo character of the RS6 is growing on me. The M5 can't touch the RS6 in the traffic light grand prix.

Transmission: RS6=9, M5=10 ... can't beat the M5's 6-speed manual. However, the manual mode of the RS6's tiptronic does such a good job that it partially compensates for the lack of a manual transmission.

Electronics: RS6=10, M5=9 ... quick acceleration from the lights in the M5 can cause the DSC to engage and is like jamming on the brakes. Haven't felt any electronic interference in the RS6.

Paint: RS6=10, M5=9 ... RS6's looks perfect ... BMW's have an "orange peel" effect ... not liek a bad paint job but if you look closely they have a dimpled effect. I like the sleek, glass-like finish of the Audi's paint. My M5 was also delivered with a few swirl marks that I didn't get on the Audi.

Audio: RS6=9, M5=10 ... personal opinion.

Nav: RS6=9, M5=9 ... RS6 doesn't have as good a display (understatement!) ... M5 is painfully slow to recalculate (at least the 2000 model was).

Cup holders: RS6=10, M5=8 ... a sharp left curve in the M5 could leave the passenger seat covered with coffee.

Interior: RS6=10, M5=9 ... a lot of similarities but the Audi has the edge in quality. The titanium trim in the M5 turned out to be coated plastic and the coating would start to chip off ... one guy had his gear lever knob replaced seven times. I had my center console trim replaced.

Driving experience: RS6=10, M5=9 ... the RS6's enhanced exhaust has a beautiful sound and helps you to be more involved in what is happening ... the M5 was just too quiet! Both are awesome sedans and hard to fault.

Andy

[littletommy]

Great comparison of the two cars. Like you deep down I'm a BMW lover at heart having owned seven of them (just couldn't wait for the V10, and I am unconvinced of Mr. Bangle's direction). I owned a 2000 M5 for a few years (which I tracked a fews times) and just traded in a '02 Porsche Turbo for an RS6 last week (a story for a different time).

A few observations on your comments and a few of my own but not in any rational order.

M5 understeer? If anything on the track it plows at least compared to smaller, lighter cars. I can't counterpoint your comparison in that department compared to the Audi yet as I'm still in break-in, but I do agree even without honking on it the Audi appears to be flatter going into in corners. Second point regarding Quattro vs the M5 RWD, I agree with your comments the Audi powers throught corner exits very well compared to the BMW. With respect to traction control, the M5's was far too invasive, but I haven't pushed the Audi yet (hopefully it's like Porsche's which has a lot of latitude).

M5 shifter. It is a long throw but, but not too notchy for me and I rarely missed a gear. I love the tranny on the RS6 and not because I'm tired of driving a stick (my daily driver I use to drive into Chicago is an A4 stick). The RS is very easy to drive quickly and smoothly, more so than any car I've owned. In the manual mode shifts in the RS6 are quicker than any other tiptronic I've driven, and only slightly slower than an M3 SMG (yes I owned one of those too) but only when the BMW tranny is in the fastest setting. Yes a stick will shift faster but only with some work, and not off the line unless you dump the clutch.

Surging or hesitation off the line on the Audi. Yes, hit it and it jumps, but I thinks it's because 1st gear is a creeper. Try putting the M5 in the sport mode and give it a shove off the line. Talk about an unpleasant experience unless you keep the go pedal mashed to the floor. To me the Audi is much more forgiving off the line. Another point-powerband. Torque on the Audi goes down much deeper compared to the BMW (turbo lag is minor). The M5 mill didn't really start rocking until about 3000 RPM (still on of the best engines I've had the pleasure of sitting behind).

Interior-- I agree the M5's is dated versus the Audi (the inside of which is by far the best I've had the pleasure of owning--let's not talk about Porsches please). Regarding the seats, both the M5 and the Audi's are very good, but for me I find the Audi's preferable. On dashboards, the M5's is injected plastic not leather, and I agree with your comments on the Nav systems, they both are slow and unintuitive compared the Japanese systems. Stereo wise, the M5 is much better than the Audi's which is OK, but not great. Parking brake vs armrest, I can deal with it in automatic.

My last counterpoint is on price. The Audi's ticket vs the M5 is a tad stiff, but compare it to the E55 after the dealer is done tacking on his market price adjustment (why does a dog lick himself?). The E car is also an interesting vehicle, provided you always are heading down the straightaway with the pedal to the metal.

I really enjoyed your post, and hope another man's opinion (without tears) is taken in the spirit they're intended-fun because that's what all these cars are about.

T

[ZCD2.7T]

Originally posted by littletommy
Great comparison of the two cars. I...just traded in a '02 Porsche Turbo for an RS6 last week (a story for a different time).
T

Tommy (?) -

Thanks for your comments, too.

One question - I saw a recenty-traded Black 996 911TT (looked like an '02) at Laurel-Westmont on Friday evening - your former ride, perchance? It was basically blocking the showroom front door, and had a dealer demo plate on it - the Mangler was taking it home for the evening....I commented to one of the sales dudes that it was a nice ride, and he told me that it had just been traded on an RS 6.....what a coinkidink, huh?

:D

So - 'fess up - was it yours?

If so, then pray tell, what's the "story for a different time"?

My boss has a 1997 Black/Black 911TT, and driving it has spoiled me for any other sports car, and also made every other car I've driven feel slow..... The 911 is just EXPLOSIVE, and in a way that even the mighty RS 6 can't match.

So - why'd you trade it, assuming that it was yours....?

[oregonbob]

littletommy,

Thanks for the comments.

The understeer/oversteer problem to which I referred happened when I hit the M5 hard from say 30 mph or so, especially in the rain. The rear felt like it was trying to get in front of the front. It required some steering to correct. Hit it too hard and the DSP kicked in. Whatever that feeling is called, I found it unsettling.

I wasn't missing gears in the M5. The shifter was OK if a little long. It was the clutch that I never mastered.

With regard to interiors, I agree, the Sportive M5 was injected plastic. But, the Heritage leather package included leather covered dash, console and door tops, softer leather seats and vertical seat stitching. The seats were mono-tone. The Sportive interior had thicker feeling leather, horizontal stitching and allowed for two-toned seats. Window shades were available only with Sportive as the window shade door tops were incompatible with the Heritage leather option. By the way, the Heritage leather option was about $6,000 in Europe; no charge in the U.S. Go figure.

I enjoyed your post also. And comments were taken in the spirit intended.

Thanks.

Bob

[littletommy]

Glad you enjoyed. Happy motoring.
T

[rs6w]

This is the one thing I like about most audi owners they do seem to be a little more open minded about other cars.

[Gustav]

M5 owners view :race:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=359567#post359567

[littletommy]

Yes that was my '02 911t at Laurel. The story for another time quite simply is that I decided I prefered to own a more comfortable all round car over the Porsche. Without a doubt the Porsche outperforms the RS6 or just about anything else, but at a price of comfort, and I would say some build quality issues.

I've owned 3 different 911s over the last 4 years including '97 993 Turbo and I will tell you they go like snot and track like a laser, but they are ridiculously expensive to own and over time at least for me get to be a pain to drive. Take one on a long trip sometime and you'll understand. Another downside, is there's nothing sutble about them--stealth and comfort are good things. Getting challenged by every chump in hondas to vette's can get old.

A few other points, Porsches are downright chintzy (read not cheap), and they're market value (if that really matters) have cratered in the last year (importation to the States for Turbos in 2004 is forecast at 1000 down from 5000 in '03 and there are easily a dozen used ones for sale in Chicago right now). If you want that car, he'll sell it to you for $91-92, not the $99 asking.

A great ride and if had more money than god, I would have kept it and bought the RS6, but I don't. My favorite car that I've owned over the last 5 years (the list includes the 3 911s, an M5 and a '02 M3 SMG) was the M5, that is before the RS6. So there you have it, I guess I'm a stealth saloon rocket kind of guy.

If anything I'll miss with the Porsche is track day at Road America (nothing except the full blown racers could keep up) and the wonderful effect on the highway when just about everyone would merge to the right to get out of your way.

Sorry my story was a little boring in that it didn't include a criminal reckless driving conviction or divorce proceedings.

Littletommy

[Bauer]

Littletommy,

ya could you spice it up a little next time, we are looking for a good plot with lots of twists and turns:D :D :cheers:

Thanks for the write up.....and keep em comming.