C&D pick S6 as best against M5 and E63

[Joker]

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2013-audi-s6-vs-2013-bmw-m5-2012-mercedes-benz-e63-amg-comparison-tests?redirect=no

1st : Audi S6

Highs:

Abundant details make it feel special, less power but more personality than the M5, smallest sticker price.
Lows:

More squishiness in corners, steering is less reactive than the Benz's, a choppier ride on 20s.
Verdict:

In a blind taste test, you'd never pick this one as the cheapest. Only the most complete.


2nd : Mercedes E63
Highs:

Turns on a pfennig, sounds like Beethoven's "Blitzkrieg in C," rear tires are often smoking, engages all the senses.
Lows:

One or two loose parts, tailpipes look like buckteeth, the most expensive.
Verdict:

This robot is the biggest thrill ride.



3rd : BMW M5

Highs:

A leather-lined bullet for five, smoothly sophisticated power, one gorgeous devil in a blue dress.
Lows:

Comparatively dull steering, hippity-hop over bumps, that @#&$ shifter, unsatisfying in ways an M5 shouldn't be.
Verdict:

Cleanup in aisle five, please.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2013-audi-s6-vs-2013-bmw-m5-2012-mercedes-benz-e63-amg-1.pdfTest Results (http://media.caranddriver.com/files/2013-audi-s6-vs-2013-bmw-m5-2012-mercedes-benz-e63-amg-1.pdf)

[Justin9212]

Fantastic. Surprisingly so. Someday audi will figure out that placing the entire engine forward of the front wheels is not the best for handling, at that point nobody else will ever win in these comparisons. Until then I will always be impressed when Audi does win, because even with our cars being nose heavy pigs, we are still so well designed in every other area that nobody cares.

[Benman]

Fantastic. Surprisingly so. Someday audi will figure out that placing the entire engine forward of the front wheels is not the best for handling, at that point nobody else will ever win in these comparisons. Until then I will always be impressed when Audi does win, because even with our cars being nose heavy pigs, we are still so well designed in every other area that nobody cares.

This. :cheers:

[Aronis]

Wow, what will an RS6 do to the Bimmer? LOL

Mike

[Joker]

Wow, what will an RS6 do to the Bimmer? LOL

Mike

I've been wondering that same thing, if 420hp with no quattroGmbH magic can embarrass the best from both AMG and M-Division then heaven knows what an extra 150hp will do to them. :lovl:

As with the S4 and S5 it seems like Audi have once again struck gold with their latest S models.

[kismetcapitan]

Porsche has figured out how to make an engine hanging behind the rear axle work; surely Audi, with proper motivation (their primary goal is not to churn out race cars), could do the same with an engine hanging off the front - granted, it took Porsche a good four decades or so....

[mik15]

i got to say...really impressive, it makes you wonder how come they can get these figures considering the car has less power and the weight is about the same as the other 2, in fact i thought the S6 would be the lightest one but looks like the AMG is....0-60 and 1/4 mile are absolutely fantastic figures for a 420hp Quattro car that weighs just about as our RS6 and still is 140hp less than M5 and 80 than AMG...it's really shocking! based on this, for the new RS6, 500hp should be enough to beat the M/AMG, if they go over 600hp than the rivals will be totally annihilated...well done Audi! I am curious what the reviews in Europe will look like, especially what Clarkson has to say about it and mainly Tiff Needel...

[The RS6]

I am curious what the reviews in Europe will look like, especially what Clarkson has to say about it and mainly Tiff Needel...

Same as always...drifting around the track and announcing that the RWD's are more fun.

[mik15]

you're probably right :), for them it's all about track and not to much to do with the real life driving conditions and average drivers....

[hahnmgh63]

Actually, the new Audi's do have the engine more rearward than they historically have. That was a Ferdinand Piech mandate around 5 years ago.

[dab]

You should see the m5 forums lighting up with these latest results, they are cancelling their c&d subscrip

[JavierNuvolari]

I read this a few days ago, it's nice to see Audi S line products right up there with the AMG and M cars. I have to say, for the next RS6 they should just lower the weight, perhaps improve the power delivery and torque, but I strongly believe the next RS 6 will be all about lightness, Audi Ultra anyone?

Have a nice day everyone!

Javier

[Joker]

If Audi could shed 150kg from the weight of the S6 then no more than 550hp would be required to lead this group convincingly. BMW failed with their M5 by making it much heavier than before and this review is evidence they got it wrong so Audi have a real change with the next RS6 to lead the way and make the RS6 the one to remember as it once was with the M5.

[andreadebi]

seems they removed the review.... :( link not working

[4everRS]

BMW probably called and cancelled their C&D advertising campaign. :) hehe

[The RS6]

hmmm...works fine for me...

[andreadebi]

hmmm...works fine for me...

yes now works but believe me, 4 hours ago was off...

[Aronis]

I got a 404 ERROR when I tried that link last week.

I'm am more interested in real world performance than the race track.

Yesterday I was pulling up an on-ramp with a friend of mine behind me in a new Mustang BOSS 302. I am driving a 2008 A4 Cab with 2.0liter Turbo and QUATRO (RS in the shop). I figured I'd hit it hard and let him have some fun with me as his car has 444 hp and is fast, and my cab has only 236 hp in a similar weight class! The turn onto the ramp is a 90 degree left hand turn after a stop light, and then a tight sweep curve to the right. I pulled out of the stop light and up the ramp, no drama, but when he hit it after making the 90 degree turn, he fish tailed and almost hit the guard rail. Then simply limped up the ramp after cleaning himself. Lot's of horse power, but sucks on a turn.....

This same ramp is very fun with the RS6. I can hit the top of the ramp at 80 plus mph. That of course humiliated a guy on a motor cycle who was trying to draft me on the ramp last summer....LOL...he could not keep up.

So rear world real roads is more important to me than what the car can do at the track. I bet that in a snow storm with snow tires on both the S6 and an M5, the S6 will pull 0-60 a LOT faster....while the M5 does loops.

Mike

[pq40]

"So rear world real roads is more important to me than what the car can do at the track. I bet that in a snow storm with snow tires on both the S6 and an M5, the S6 will pull 0-60 a LOT faster....while the M5 does loops."<O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
These are performance sedans. The only place you can fully utilize cars with this kind of power and performance is on the track. If all you care about is daily driving the argument could be made that a A6 3.0t or a 535 is just a effective in real world terms. Also 0 to 60 times in the snow is not the brightest way to justify one over the other. LOL. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
While the 0 to 60 time for the S6 with launch control and AWD makes for a nice head line. 60 times are a fairly irrelevant way of measuring performance. Especially with launch control. I have never seen a launch controlled start in the real world...It’s a pointless novelty. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
In terms of performance numbers the M5 and E63 kill the S6. especially when you put these car on a track which is the only place you can even think of approaching there limits (if all you care about is real world get a 3.0t of 535). From a dead stop the M5 hits 100mph over a full second faster, and 130mph three full seconds faster than the S6!!! THAT IS HUGE. And traps the 1/4 mile 8mph faster!! Its honestly no comparison. The RS6 is going to need 100+ more hp to match the kind of acceleration the E63 and M5 can pull (and I honestly even doubt that is enough, b/c there are videos online of the M5 out dragging a Panamer Turbo S from a rolling start). The M5 also slaloms considerably faster, and pulls more g's than the awd S6. And if you did elasticity acceleration time, like you would experience coming out of a corner at a track the M5's gap would be that much larger to the S6. <O:p></O:p>
<O:p></O:p>
The S6 won (or gained points in this comparison) over the others because of price, styling (which is pure opinion), and fuel economy (but isn’t it expected that the car with the smallest least powerful motor would get the best economy?). That’s kind of why this comparison makes no sense. They are testing 3 performance sedans, but give the victory to the one with the worst performance, and because it accels in non performance areas. what?!<O:p></O:p>
<O:p> </O:p>
On a side note you really think VW will let an A6 be faster than Porsches $195K flagship sedan? It may be close acceleration wise but around a track the Porsche will still be faster than the RS6. Oh yeah and the M5 is as quick as the Turbo S around the ring.<O:p></O:p>

[lswing]

Hi, my name is pq40, my job..well, BMW sales:)

Interesting first post and points, some good, I didn't notice too many points about how amazing the RWD is in wet and snow...

[Aronis]

The real world is not all about 0-60. On REAL roads with sand, snow or RAIN, the difference is HUGE with an AWD car. The performance of these cars CAN be used and enjoyed every day on the regular roads, as I do.

I had am M3 for 5 years and drove that in all weather, year round with snows, and did not have any problems in the snow (accept that one April 1st when I took off the snows 1 day too soon YIKES). So you can enjoy a RWD year round if you know how to drive it.

Those who buy these 'super cars' just for the track are NUTS, there are many better TRACK car's to buy.

The point about accelerating on the snow with an AWD car is not about racing or driving recklessly in snowy weather. Some times you need to be able to move confidently to get around a problem....you're not going to make it with a high power RWD car. When you have to get to where your going in the bad weather on poorly plowed roads, AWD get's you there, that's precisely why BWM has Xdrive and MB has 4matic, to follow in Audi's long history of AWD cars.


By the way, with the mention of useless comparison items, how about how BMW 1M beat the TTRS by one point because of REBATEs (1 point for that), and the M3 beat the C63 AMG by one point for the same BS item.

Why? BIAS....BIAS.....

Now the car mags have no choice but to swallow hard and pronounce the A6 as the winner, and now the S6 as the winner.

Mike

[Aronis]

Oh. Forgot your mention of styling. Can BMW make the five series any more ugly??

:).

Mike

(just kidding, it's not possible).

[The RS6]

So, mr. pq40, do you have any data how many M5 owners use their cars specificaly for track use? :)

Don't be ridiculous, maybe 2-3% of RS6/M5/E63 owners track their cars. Real-world performance matters the most.

I agree on the real-world uslessness of 0-60 time, and that the M5 beats the S6 in relevant acceleration tests. But, newsflash, in Germany, the S6 costs 30% less and is 140hp down on power.

And, since most guys here are American, ask them how irrelevant the 0-60 time is :)

What matters most in this test is that the S6 was able to keep up with the big boys.

[vitalian]

Hey there, pq40, thanks for coming over from the BMW forum in order to join up here just to post your "but the M5 is better, nyah-nyah" post. Whatever, dude. (I'm assuming you're a dude, since your post has a certain "size matters" tone to it -- I apologize if I'm mistaken.)

I have not driven the S6, but the beauty of the RS6 is, at least for me, the fact that I can have awesome power and performance in real-life driving situations, not just in laboratory-controlled track conditions. These are CARS, after all, not museum pieces or hadron supercolliders or space shuttles or what have you, so I firmly believe that it actually IS important how they perform in the real world rather than in some hypothetical scenario that 99.999999% of people will never have the opportunity to experience.

[4everRS]

Just the fact that some ass-muncher comes on the board to say that is fantastic. More fantastic is that we are comparing the amg and m cars to an s car.

Go home or to hell pq40. You don't belong here.

[pq40]

LOL. Sorry I had to come on here, your intoxication with the 0 to 60 time was too funny..I had to bring up some other figures from this comparison test you guys oddly overlook.

But wait, so if the RS6 comes to market with GT3rs style seats, carbon fiber body work, (even though these are ultimately luxury sedans) im sure you guys would be all about the track. Right? LOL.

Sounds like you guys should just stick to 2.0T A6s.

Heres a nice video of the M5 driving beautifully in the snow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-_xVGuxNEY

M5 vs Panamera Turbo S

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWNNV98ZjN4




///M Power.

[lswing]

pq40, your chatter is boring and pointless, stop being a turd:)

[The RS6]

Heres a nice video of the M5 driving beautifully in the snow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-_xVGuxNEY


Wow, youtube really helped me reply to this one. I clicked on the link, and as usual it brings up some advertisments on the bottom.

This is the actuall screenshot.

http://i48.tinypic.com/rgxlyf.jpg

You wanna know what that question is?

"Do you think you have a small one?"

:lovl::lovl::lovl:

Even youtube knows bmw fans' problems :applause:

[Joker]

Welcome pq40 and thanks for your point of view from a BMW (rwd) perspective. You are quite right the M5 and E63 do indeed kill the S6 at higher speeds, speeds which I might add are illegal almost everywhere. 0-60 isn't really that important because with each of these three it's a very short thrill, in-gear times have more relevance in the REAL world and each perform this task equally well.

Anyway happy motoring and enjoy you ride.:cheers:

[dab]

While the 0 to 60 time for the S6 with launch control and AWD makes for a nice head line. 60 times are a fairly irrelevant way of measuring performance. Especially with launch control. I have never seen a launch controlled start in the real world...It’s a pointless novelty. >>
>> You are stoned it is the only relevant performance, how many 1/4 miles do you run. Our speed limits make 0-100 pointless.

[Joker]

He is right about launch control though, can't recall ever using it apart from testing my car's acceleration one or twice out of curiosity and certainly not against anyone at the lights.

[Spidercat]

Wait. Did they just say Audi is following BMW in the new choice of standard supersedan powerplant --
the V8 biturbo? Wha???

Edit: I think they were referring to the placement of the turbos and other hardware.
Note to self- read twice, post once.

[kismetcapitan]

this is hilarious :P

I took my fiancée home; we drove up to Ann Arbor. She noticed that there was a sudden massive proliferation of Audis, and wondered out loud about it. "Cause the weather sucks here".

Only in my RS6 could I blast through a rainstorm at 90mph for two hours straight. Yes, the front end plows while BMWs and AMGs can drift out their tails. But I'd rather have the AWD thank you; I often think about how limited I'd be during the winter had I bought an M5 as I originally planned. Plus underpowered; the automatic gearbox has been a very small price to pay compared to what I have gotten!

The comparison is rather irrelevant too, in that the S6 is positioned BENEATH the M series and AMG cars. The M series is BMW's best, but it's the RS, and not the S, which is Audi's best. If the S6 came even within spitting distance of the M5, the 3rd generation RS6 will wipe its butt with the M5.

And regarding track time - I'm running my RS6 through all the available disciplines (drag, autocross, and track). Hell, I even ran my car on a short track oval in Kentucky! Fast enough at least to learn that there are different lines and real strategy in NASCAR racing. In onroad safety and comfort year-round, Audi reigns supreme and always has. The sportiness of the RS isn't all that bad either :)

[chewym]

S6 fuel economy is 17/27 vs. 18/27 for the A6 3.0T quattro. The cylinder shutoff is a great trick for EPA testing.

[bmwade]

Just an observation, the new S6 V8 puts out numbers very similar to our beloved RS6. so I imagine that in the near future the tunning shops will be putting out +500HP kits that will top the BMW at any speed & on any track, still cost less, and be usable in the snow/rain! Which will be nice since I'm sure Audi will once again deem the US unworthy of the good stuff(RS6)...

[marklar182]

New S8 with the same motor puts out 520hp, so unless the turbos are different the S6 should be very evil when tuned!

[bmwade]

That's true too! I'm sure they left +50 on the table with just a simple tune to the S8, then throw in exaust and it sounds like my next car. But I'm predicting the S8 has some mechanical differences to the S6 as I think Audi will make the S8 a legit S63 competitor this time around. Th S8 is probably going to be closer to the RS6, at least I hope!