Rough idle

[Brav]

Sad, I was just commenting how reliable my car has generally been aside from problems that I instigated w mods. I was driving in town after I had got on it hard on the freeway and all of a sudden the throttle was behaving erradically. When I would let off it would maintain speed. Then as I come to a stop it sounded like it would die. If I gave it gas it would respond well and seem to smooth out. But rpms were holding after I let off. Also brakes went hard and nearly non functional as I came to a stop. I won't have access to a vag com till later. CEL was already on. For post catalyst. Generic scanner found no other faults. Video uploading now.

Seem like vacuum leak or electronic? Seems to still boost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FRFmQcg-v8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftq1VhrDKEM

[Bigglezworth]

Rough idle leading to stall and no poweer assist for brakes has always been a tell tale sign of a vaccum leak in my experience.

[ben916]

Sad, I was just commenting how reliable my car has generally been aside from problems that I instigated w mods. I was driving in town after I had got on it hard on the freeway and all of a sudden the throttle was behaving erradically. When I would let off it would maintain speed. Then as I come to a stop it sounded like it would die. If I gave it gas it would respond well and seem to smooth out. But rpms were holding after I let off. Also brakes went hard and nearly non functional as I came to a stop. I won't have access to a vag com till later. CEL was already on. For post catalyst. Generic scanner found no other faults. Video uploading now.

Seem like vacuum leak or electronic? Seems to still boost.


I think you are on the right track with the vacuum leak - that was a telltail sign with John's but his was at freeway speed and pucker factor...

[Brav]

Good, confirming my suspicions. Honestly it may be a blessing in disguise. At least I know what to hunt for. And may be the source of my not so smooth power. And other random yet not so significant codes. Although I had a leak test done with a fog machine last month and just showed small leak from IC. Maybe maf seals? I just had new ones put in.

[ben916]

the easiest think to check/change would the be MAF seals FIRST and then perhaps listen for a leak...
John's vacuum leak was under the intake manifold....

[Brav]

I inspected them myself when Raven had the box off. Looked good.. I doubt the installed wrong. Maybe. Will inspect and report back

[ben916]

Also your MAF cables might be frayed?

[kday]

A leak that causes you to lose power brakes (a vacuum leak proper) will be something after the throttle -- so MAFs, intercoolers, etc. don't apply.

Unfortunately this car has a boost sensor (mounted before the throttle), not a MAP sensor, so you can't use VAG-COM to measure vacuum. You could tee a mechanical gauge into a line somewhere I guess.

[Brav]

Thanks for the info kday. generic scanner now shows missfires on every cylinder. So for sure it has to be vacuum.. at idle, after warm, it will hunt now up to 2100-2500 RPM and hang for a while smoothly, then go down to a lumpy dirty idle. then repeat.. over and over.

I should also note.. this is the first time I have EVER heard the fan stay on after I shut the car off.. WTF. And the air was pretty cold that it was blowing...

[SzymekCRX]

It's helpful to use a spray to find a vacuum leak

[ttboost]

Yeah, this car is a PITA with all the lines and hoses. Everytime I have my airbox off, I do a lap around checking for dry rotted hoses, adding zipties, using a sledge hammer on the back on my airbox when I put it back on...etc...

[905084]

Brav, just watched your youtube video....I got a case of beer that says it is one of your MAF sensors and/or associated wiring). Mine did the exact same thing and I spent a month chasing my tail looking for vacuum leaks and replacing MAF seals. I finally bought an OBD-II to USB cable on eBay for a couple of bucks and downloaded the VCDS-Lite software. Spent 4 hours to get it to work on my computer but had my answer 10 minutes after I plugged it into the car. Mine showed G70 MAF reading about 5 and G246 MAF reading about 0.3. Swapped the MAF's to confirm it wasn't wiring and to figure out which one was G70 and G246 (left/right). Replaced it and it has idle like a champ ever since.

For some reason because we have 2 MAF's the ECU won't throw a code if one is toast. Best way to trouble shoot (and in my opinion leave it) is to take the MAF's off the airbox and put them in the intake. It'll save you from having to use a hammer to put the airbox on and possibly skank a seal (which I've done) and it will save what is left of your MAF wiring (keeps it from being twisted every time you take the box off).

I don't know why your brakes quit, but I'd bet unrelated (maybe the engine quit?)

Good luck!

[Brav]

Thanks for the input. I have brand need MAFs so I hope one is not bad. I used my Torque generic scanner and both MAFs seemed to dead normal. At cruise they were jumping around. Brakes were out as I limped it home most of the way. It seemed to come back after a period of decelerstion, maybe built you vacuum. I searched all last night for a vac diagram. Only found SAI and pcv routes. Anyone got a full diagram?

Another note - whike looking around under the good with engine running, I could hear a very loud hollow sucking sound. Today I will pull the airbox and have a look and VAG it.

[905084]

I hear that loud sucking sound every time I start my RS, seems to be coming from my wallet area :) Good luck, sounds like vacuum then. Any rich/lean bank codes?

[Brav]

LOL ya maybe here was it. Yes I had misfire on all cylinders and correction limit exceeded for lean condition.

[Brav]

Finally got a VAG COM... heeear we go! 19 Faults in one group, new personal record

VIN: WUAPV64B03N905315
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 01: Engine Labels: 077-907-558-BCY.lbl
Part No: 4D1 907 558 D
Component: 4.2l V8/5VT G 0003
Coding: 0006752
Shop #: WSC 13876 409 403238
VCID: 2F67E54FBD066C1

19 Faults Found:
16487 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
P0103 - 001 - Signal too High - Intermittent
17482 - Mass Air Flow Sensor 2 (G246)
P1074 - 001 - Signal too High - Intermittent
18393 - Coolant Control Module 2 (J671)
P1985 - 002 - Malfunction - Intermittent
17585 - Bank2: O2 (Lambda) Correction Behind Catalyst
P1177 - 001 - Control Limit Reached - MIL ON
17887 - Brake Boost Vacuum System
P1479 - 008 - Mechanical Failure - Intermittent
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 - - MIL ON
16688 - Cylinder 4
P0304 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16692 - Cylinder 8
P0308 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16690 - Cylinder 6
P0306 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16687 - Cylinder 3
P0303 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16686 - Cylinder 2
P0302 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
17536 - Fuel Trim; Bank 1 (Mult)
P1128 - 001 - System too Lean - MIL ON
17538 - Fuel Trim; Bank 2 (Mult)
P1130 - 001 - System too Lean - MIL ON
17544 - Fuel Trim: Bank 1 (Add)
P1136 - 001 - System too Lean
17546 - Fuel Trim: Bank 2 (Add)
P1138 - 001 - System too Lean
16891 - Idle Control System RPM
P0507 - 001 - Higher than Expected. - Intermittent - MIL ON
16685 - Cylinder 1
P0301 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16689 - Cylinder 5
P0305 - 001 - Misfire Detected - MIL ON
16691 - Cylinder 7
P0307 - 008 - Misfire Detected
Readiness: 0000 0000

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 4B0-614-517.lbl
Part No: 4B0 614 517 AD
Component: ESP 5.7 RS 6 2310
Coding: 06697
Shop #: WSC 02195
VCID: 63CF597FF14E981

2 Faults Found:
01119 - Gear Recognition Signal
35-10 - - - Intermittent
18265 - Load Signal
P1857 - 35-10 - Error Message from ECU - Intermittent

[kday]

Codes for "too lean" seem consistent with a vacuum leak, and being too lean could cause misfires. Same with idle higher than expected, a sucking sound, and of course the lack of brake boost. That's a lot of signs pointing to a plain old vacuum leak. Seems like it must be a pretty big one; hopefully that means it will be easy to track down. Not sure how the MAF codes fit in.

[Brav]

I really hope its something on top of the manifold.. is there much under the airbox that could go wrong? the SAI pump looks fine.

[Brav]

OK so after listening with air box off and MAFs in, sound is most accute from the middle of drivers side of manifold (underneath it). What could that be? Idont think I have the time or the talent to pull the manifold right now and not have a running car.

MAF seals seemed to have some indents in them at the rear inside area, like the mafs are being pulledback and pinched. They were not symmetrical. Maf connectors had sharp bends and severe wear but seemed to not be frayed yet. See photos.

[ben916]

John's issue (possibly related?) -> http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/20247-Brake-boost-comes-and-goes?highlight=

The MAF seals @ Apikol seem to be the current shiznit.

The MAF connecter/boot can be replaced fairly easy. I just don't know nor researched the pin connection as I have an idea for an extension as this seems to be a high wear item and is so vital to the operation of the car. Another poor design...

[4everRS]

I really hope its something on top of the manifold.. is there much under the airbox that could go wrong? the SAI pump looks fine.I think this might be the issue



http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/20734-Need-help-removing-intake-manifold

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/20247-Brake-boost-comes-and-goes

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/21112-WTF-Please-help.-Bad-misfire-Brakes-come-and-go-Happened-to-you

[4everRS]

Oops. Ben beat me to it on my middle thread

[SFJ_RS6]

ben916 - if you come up with a MAF connector extension, let share it - mine look just about exactly like Brav's and I wonder how long before I have trouble as a result....

[Chung]

My problem was MAF. I just had my MAFs rewired and the Apikol seals installed. She was running like a top on my Portland trip.

Hope your problem is easy to solve.

[kday]

Reading the linked threads, it sure sounds like that "jet pump" is the culprit. A $10 piece of plastic that will take 10 hours to get to :(
I am adding that to my list of things to do the next time things are apart.

[Brav]

Yea kday, it seems to be the case. It fits with the location of what I am hearing and my symptoms. I think I may try to tackle this myself if I can borrow a car for the week. Looks very tedious but not difficult. I just need to prepare to get a bunch of electricians tags etc and take lots of pics. I really hope this is the problem if I am going to rip this thing apart.. something tells me it will take me a week, not 2 days..

Thanks again guys for all the input, I feel the love!

[kday]

Yeah, I agree, it sounds tedious but not difficult. It's smart to allow yourself extra time -- I know at least in my case I start making mistakes when I am in a hurry. If you don't already have a Bentley manual, get one.

[Brav]

So who wants to earn a few cases of beer and dinner to come pull this pig apart with me? Not gonna lie, I'm scared. Ordered Bentley. Has someone posted an intake manifold DIY? I cant seem to find one

[4everRS]

P3u did it. I can't find the thread, but I'm pretty sure he had a write up.

While the intake is off, make sure to clean up the throttle body well with a toothbrush.

[ThrillHouse]

So who wants to earn a few cases of beer and dinner to come pull this pig apart with me? Not gonna lie, I'm scared. Ordered Bentley. Has someone posted an intake manifold DIY? I cant seem to find one

You may want to check the post run coolant pump while you're there... I just had mine done in November which required R&R of the intake manifold. They are a *good* shop and I actually waited while they worked so I know they actually were on it all day.

I wish I knew about the Jet Pump when I did that coolant pump - I'd have changed it out for sure!

Good luck!

[Brav]

Good call, I should get an after run coolant pump as well.

I found this thread, but not a real DIY. I would make one as I do mine, but it will probably be full of bad info!

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/20814-What-takes-10-hours-and-gives-you-beaten-up-hands?highlight=

[ThrillHouse]

I should have said it before - you can order the relocation kit (I don't have any part numbers, I will check the receipt when I get home) but not actually use the whole kit... Its the same pump but for some reason its $20 cheaper if I remember right.

[Brav]

OK Guys- please chime in with suggestions. I got everything setup to tear this biotch apart to replace the elusive suction jet pump. Since pulling the manifold, I hope, is a one-time experience for me, WHAT ELSE should I replace under there while I'm at it?

Suction pump
After run coolant pump (relocation)
PCVs?
Gaskets?
Anything?

All of my hoses are all new above the manifold, my guess is nothing was touched underneath.

Will it be easier at this point to pull valve covers? I do need to replace my cam adjuster on driver side. If there is time savings, I might as well do it..

[ben916]

So who wants to earn a few cases of beer and dinner to come pull this pig apart with me? Not gonna lie, I'm scared. Ordered Bentley. Has someone posted an intake manifold DIY? I cant seem to find one

When and where?

EDIT:
When John's vacuum leak happened, there was a suggestion to replace all $hitty old tubing with new vacuum tubing (since your gonna be in there/under there anyway, right?) and I bought 15' of tubing as a kit from ECS (IIRC - it was $10 or something) and it had some T connectors and other connections included. I will look on ECS to see if I can find it. Better to be safe than sorry...

EDIT AGAIN:
found this but the prices went up ALOT!
http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-RS6--4.2T/Search/Vacuum/

[kday]

Well, the list of "while you're in there" items is potentially very long, since you have to put the front into service position, which is of course step #1 in a lot of procedures, including the timing belt/water pump/thermostat.

It would be a great time to replace the spark plugs if they've got some miles on them.

The Bentley says the engine has to come out to get the passenger side valve cover off. If it was me I'd skip the valve covers unless they were obviously leaking.

[Brav]

When and where?

EDIT:
When John's vacuum leak happened, there was a suggestion to replace all $hitty old tubing with new vacuum tubing (since your gonna be in there/under there anyway, right?) and I bought 15' of tubing as a kit from ECS (IIRC - it was $10 or something) and it had some T connectors and other connections included. I will look on ECS to see if I can find it. Better to be safe than sorry...

EDIT AGAIN:
found this but the prices went up ALOT!
http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-RS6--4.2T/Search/Vacuum/

Im taking it to friend's shop to use his lift.. he felt bad. Will start taking things apart today, and probably do the heavy duty stuff all day Saturday. Gives me Sunday if I cant get it all together that day.

[Brav]

Well, the list of "while you're in there" items is potentially very long, since you have to put the front into service position, which is of course step #1 in a lot of procedures, including the timing belt/water pump/thermostat.

It would be a great time to replace the spark plugs if they've got some miles on them.

The Bentley says the engine has to come out to get the passenger side valve cover off. If it was me I'd skip the valve covers unless they were obviously leaking.

I should have mentioned, I just did T-belt/thermo/waterpump/steering pump and spark plugs 12 months ago, so all that is good I assume.

Valve covers are ok, but I have a noisy cam adjuster. Seems to operate ok.

I have heard of the issue on passenger side valve cover. Some have gotten it out with a bit of bending. Fortunately (?) my Driver side is the side making the noise. I think..

[kday]

Has anyone actually had vacuum hoses themselves fail on their RS6? My experience with the rubber Audi hoses is that they last a long time, at least on the previous generation C cars. It's the plastic bits that go.

[4everRS]

Has anyone actually had vacuum hoses themselves fail on their RS6? My experience with the rubber Audi hoses is that they last a long time, at least on the previous generation C cars. It's the plastic bits that go.

You mean the ones wrapped in a cloth material right? They are shit. I had to replace mine with silicon due to cracking.

[kday]

You mean the ones wrapped in a cloth material right? They are shit. I had to replace mine with silicon due to cracking.

Those are what I meant, yeah. Maybe they started using crappy ones in the C5?

I wouldn't use silicone, personally...

[4everRS]

Those are what I meant, yeah. Maybe they started using crappy ones in the C5?

I wouldn't use silicone, personally...
Huh. Interesting. I've only heard bad things about the stock rubber lines. And only good for the silicon. This is somewhat of a known issue with the vac lines. A lot of euro parts companies sell them as kits or make-your-own.

Is there a reason not to use the silicon? I've replaced all my lines with it quite a while back, and last I checked, they seemed like they were still brand new.

[kday]

I don't have any hard data on pros or cons for silicone. I think it's telling that OEMs don't use it though. I don't think it has the same abrasion resistance, and can be too slippery. My understanding is the main reason that silicone is used for large turbo hoses is because it's relatively easy to form into custom shapes, not because it is inherently better. That doesn't apply to small diameter straight hose of course. Though I do wonder if silicone has enough structural integrity to not collapse under vacuum.

FWIW I have had silicone turbo hoses fail. (Link to large pic: http://www.boost-instruments.com/glen1prep07/DSCN1164.jpg ) All hoses can fail of course, my only point is that silicone is not necessarily superior in every way.

[ben916]

There was a rash of like 5-7 cars in early 2010 that, all at once around the county, there were vacuum leaks....
It was nutty...

[hahnmgh63]

I too replaced all of my vacuum hoses with Silicone a couple of years ago as I had one of the vacuum hoses going to the (now removed) SAI valve at the back of the ening crumble in my hands. I do agree that in order to use Silicone vacuum hoses you should get the thicker walled Silicone as thin walled Silicone may collapse somewhat under Vacuum.

[Brav]

OK. I'm balls deep into this thing,and I cant for the life of me figure out how to get the one time use hose clamps off the secondary air lines by the firewall. I have big snips, but they wont go through, and some of the angles are ridiculous! Is there a special tool for this? its 10% of the details of this job taking 65% of the time.

[Brav]

really starting to despise the idiot who put this car together. clamps facing firewall, cant get access to release them. /rant

[ttboost]

That's what happens when you work on the engine OUT of the car....can't see what will be accessible once the engine is back IN the car...

[ThrillHouse]

I know that the guys pulling my intake were using one of these, I told myself I was going to order one then and your frustration reminded me:

http://www.amazon.com/OTC-4525-Cable-Type-Flexible-Pliers/dp/B000F5JM0O

Hopefully you got it or at least can get out today and find something like this locally

[ttboost]

Yeah..pretty handy tool...probably get one at your local auto parts store or NAPA...

[kday]

Are you sure you need to undo the one-time-use clamps? At least going in from the front there seemed to be some logic to it, with the clamps that you commonly need to undo being the spring kind.

The technique I used was to put a small flat-blade screwdriver under the tip of the clamp, enough to pry the 'female' end of the metal up over the first hook. Then grab with sturdy needle-nose pliers and twist.

[SteveKen]

Has anyone actually had vacuum hoses themselves fail on their RS6? My experience with the rubber Audi hoses is that they last a long time, at least on the previous generation C cars. It's the plastic bits that go.

I've had the silicone wastegate hose fail at the area where it's crimped onto the hard line.

I'm guessing I'll be replacing the jet pump once I get the opportunity and see if it correlates to the amount of oil getting sucked into the pressure lines.

Also, I have an assortment of oetiker clamps bought from McMaster Carr. They're fairly cheap and come in bags of 30-50 depending on size. The hardest part, however, dependion on access, is getting a set of strong wire cutters on them to get them removed without damaging the hose.

[Brav]

Well, finally got to the point of getting all of the secondary air pump crap off, and the harness (easy). Its ready for me to pull the fuel rail and then manifold.. should be easy, but after working on it from 4 to 11:30 last night, I was done.

I spent WAY too much time on the hose-to-metal-pipe connections. I should have thought of the screwdriver trick. these hoses were the biggest problem for me. 150k miles, probably never touched. What a nightmare. I was pulling and twisting and prodding them so much I thought my arms would come out of the socket. In the end, it required two people. Of course, this is after I got the clamps off..

The bumper was easy, lock carrier was somewhat easy, few little things to figure out. I should have had 2-3 buckets for coolant, not 1... I created a small lake once I unplugged the top hose and the rest of the coolant came out.

The Y-pipe had a very light amount of oil in it. The air hoses (pancake vavles?) at the front on either side of the manifold had light oil residue. Nothing was high. No drips anywhere.. I suppose I should pull the ICs at this point and fix the nasty leak on drivers side, and small one on passenger.

Hopefully I get get it all wrapped up by tomorrow. I am past the most frustrating part (I hope). The good news is, I won't have to do this for another 150k miles!

[Brav]

Are you sure you need to undo the one-time-use clamps?

I was just following the tech guides step by step.. to remove the lines going to the secondary air lines just above the MAF seats, you have to remove the one time clips. There are many on top of the manifold that need to come off, as well as the line going to the vacuum reservoir. All were one-timers on mine..

I think I am going to replace them with the generic style worm-gear clamps as found throughout the rest of my car.

[kday]

It's worthwhile fixing the ICs while you have the front end off. My car feels faster now.

I had a hard time getting some of the cooling hoses apart too. It used the same little screwdriver that I used to unclip the clamps to break the seal between the rubber and the metal -- it helped quite a bit.

[ben916]

You should ask Riccardo if you can "test run" the ER I/C's that Raven has...

[Brav]

Riccardo, are you listening?!

kday, that is what I did as well, I used the screw driver to push and lift, and slide it all around as to break all the seals. How many miles were on yours? My knuckles hate me.

[kday]

My car turned 100k in January. Even some of the hoses that had obviously been removed for the previous timing belt in 2008 were tough to get off though.

I try to always wear gloves when working on the car, saves knuckles and scrubbing. My favorites so far are the atlas tough gloves.

[Brav]

What kind of hose should I get that's readily available for all the vacuum lines?

[Brav]

I have uploaded a few pics of how the car sits now, ready for fuel rail pull. I will upload pics to this album here, and you guys can follow along. Wont have time to keep posint them up but they will be in the album.

http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6

Lock carrier pulled, 2nd air system pulled, harness pulled
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1329.jpg

Maf seats ready to come out soon. This area was the worst to work on due to tight spaces and hoses being welded on to pipes for secondary air system..
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1330.jpg

Passenger side coolant lines disconnected.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1331.jpg

Driver side mess/harness laying out of the way.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1332.jpg

[4everRS]

Remember to wrap a towel around the fuel fitting when disconnecting. It Is still under some pressure.

[Brav]

Done

14 and 17mm to remove. How hard do I have to pull to get the injectors out with the rail? it seems I'm pulling so hard it may break.. but everything is disconnected.

**Nevermind, just takes a lot of wiggling. BRO-TIP: you don't have to pull so hard on things if you just wiggle them at the same time..

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1339.jpg

[Brav]

BTW I will be checking for this issue as well since I will have it apart (leak at fuel injector o-rings)

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/21661-Leaking-injector-O-rings

Fuel rail out: 2 bad plastic gaskets.. not sure what they are (not the rubber o-rings). One cracked, one chipped out. I don't know if they were like this before or somehow got messed up during removal. the rubber still had give, but harder than maybe it should be, I don't know.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1341.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1342.jpg

Hairline crack
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1340.jpg

[ben916]

Did you check your office mail for any "presents" that might help you in your quest for part numbers and exploded views of components of a variety of Audi and VW vehicles?

I took the liberty of looking up:
Injectors - 077133551AA @ $241/each @ GenuineAudiparts.
Seal - 035906149A @ $2.91/each @ GenuineAudiparts. (looks like there is one on top and one on the bottom of each injector)

That crumbling plastic part - shown but not listed as a part number...

[Brav]

Yes, got it THANKS! I tried installing following instructions with those drivers first, but its still not allowing me to install. I think because I'm on Vista 64? Duno.

I am a bit stumped at the moment. I cant get the MAF seat ("air guide") off in order to pull the manifold. Also, there are 2 hoses still stuck hard on the secondary air with impossible clips on them. I was going to pull manifold a bit off to try and get more access. But this air guide wont move much. Any tips anyone? P3U are you listening?! :)

I really hope I don't need new injectors for some reason.. 2k in injectors not sounding fun!

[ben916]

I am on XP so not sure if that is much difference - I know win 7 is very different.

I am txting "tech support" to see if he is available to help...

[Brav]

Thanks. I can get the front of the manifold up and off the studs, but the rear doesnt come up high enough in order to pull it out of the guides for the MAF seat housing. Again, feels like something will break if I keep prying and pulling.

[Brav]

Well, was just not using enough force. got a 2 foot pry bar to push the manifold and MAF seats apart. (Thanks Pat)

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1343.jpg

BUT the manifold still wont come off because it seems 2 of the secondary air pump steel pipes are fused to the turbo manifold (I think). I have been banging them with a hammer to try and loosen, with no luck. These pipes are connected to the underside of the manifold, and route to either side of the MAF seat. 1 bolt holds them in but they are for sure seized. no movement.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1345.jpg

the fight continues.. good thing I got a 4 pack of redbull and some trailmix. GF is hating me right now.

[JSRS6]

You need 32 bit to run ETKA. I tried to load it on win 7 64 running on my MacBook pro...no dice. Had to delete that virtual machine and reload with win 7 32bit ultimate.

[Brav]

OK lots of progress..

Got the passenger side secondary air pipe off finally by banging HARD on a 2 foot pry bar up against it at every possible angle i could get at, then I used the pry bar to put under the pipe, and leverage against the head to lift it off. finally came.. after a long time (thats what she said?). I think I am overly cautious from hurting stuff, but better safe than sorry.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1347.jpg

Here is the drivers side. also hit with mallet and pry bar, then used pry bar like his to finally pop it off.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1348.jpg

I put a rubber handled tool under the front of the throttle body/manifold to prop the front off of the studs while i worked to free the rear of the manifold up. there are 2 studs on each side (insted of bolts) on the heads. There were also 2 hoses I had zero access to the clamps, until I actually pulled the head. They were all around the MAF area.

here is a shot from passenger side, peering under the manifold towards the firewall. Manifold wouldnt come up far because of this. this was one that was connecting this sensor/valve just above the MAF. it faced down, so impossible to get to from above. have to remove the upper hose/clamp from the two seen here.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1350.jpg

Another hard-to-get clamp causing problems. different angle from front of car.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1352.jpg

With the manifold now easily movable, I had to finally disconnect one hose from the secondary air hard pipe going into the MAF seat... the hose as too tight a fit below all of the harness/firewall area and i had to pull it up to get access to the clamp. VOILA! finally came off.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1353.jpg

uh.. where's my suction jet flux capacitor pump???
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1357.jpg

The (missing) primary offender..
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1358.jpg

belly of manifold, rest of the SJP hiding in shame.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1359.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1360.jpg

I was curious so I peeked into the manifold trough the TB (note, next 3 pics are "upside down")
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1362.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1363.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1364.jpg

lastly, a shot of my intake valves. They all roughly looked like this when I peeked in. look ok?
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1367.jpg

I have the SJP here, but since I have torn through so many one-time clamps, I will have to now go buy a bunch so I can finish up. All of the vac lines I have seen udnerneath so far look in good shape. I don't see a need to replace.. What about these green check-valves and such in here? should I replace? Should I somehow pressure test all of the vac lines under here? Any suggestions how?

I'm going to pull the IC's and let them soak and call it a night.

[SzymekCRX]

Good job, nice pics ! Glad You found out what the problem is :)

[kday]

Awesome. Thanks for posting the pictures. That has got to be the most complicated intake manifold removal ever! That jet pump didn't leave much ambiguity.

What a pain in the ass the SAI system is.

Make sure you get the hose clamps that are smooth inside. If you need to order them, autohausaz has a good selection and unlike me and my fellow east-coasters you won't have to wait a week for them to arrive.

[hahnmgh63]

If you need a new one, this is the cheapest price I could find. Remember to search for the Bosch part # of 0280 156 167 rather than the Audi part # and you will find better prices. Summit racing of all places. Also found some on Ebay for about the same price.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BCH-0280156167/

[4everRS]

Intake valves look great. Don't forget to scrub the TB with some carb cleaner.

[kday]

So does anyone know what this suction jet pump does? The Bentley doesn't explain it anywhere I can find.

My guess is that it is a vacuum generator for keeping the brakes boosted (ironic, given what happens when it fails) when the manifold pressure is at or above atmospheric. From the pics in this thread it looks like it bleeds off turbo boost pressure from the manifold and routes it to the intake side of the left turbo after the MAF, and that pressure differential powers a venturi pump which draws down the vacuum accumulator etc.

Some earlier turbo cars (Porsche 964 turbo, Audi Ur-S4/S6) use hydraulically boosted brakes to address the problem of powering brakes under sustained turbo boost. That system has its own complications (leaking hydroboost servos, the infamous "bomb" hydraulic pressure accumulator, etc.) and surely the venturi pump is cheaper. But if the venturi pump is not reliable, it would be better to not have it at all -- you might loose brake assist if you're WOT for 30 seconds, but unless you're on the salt flats, when would that happen?

[Brav]

So I got the passenger intercooler/radiator out but the drivers side seems a lot more reluctant. All coolant hoses are off. But I can't get it to lift up off of the upper bracket. Any tips?

[hahnmgh63]

Could just be the grommets are tight & frozen on there. Just keep wiggling it while applying upwards pressure. I lubricated mine with some Silicone grease when I installed my Wagners.

[Brav]

OK thanks. Seems to be an ongoing theme with me and this car.

Does anyone had a scheme for pulling and capping the aux radiators and hoses? I'd like to rip them out.

[hahnmgh63]

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/22631-Manual-Conversion-Thread-RS6-with-01E/page4
Steveken was my inspiration for this but for me it was a complete removal as my engine/tranny were out of the car but you can get most of it out and cap the rest. Look at the exploded view carefully of the Aux radiator system and you will be able to figure out where to cap it all. They are just bascially added on to the stock system so you only need to cap them off and don't need to install a bypass (runaround system).

[SteveKen]

The only way to completely remove all the aux rad hoses is to drop the steering rack. The system is capped in two locations. The one is the first hard line off the water pump outlet. The second is off the convoluted fitting near the coolant reservoir.


Also, one thing to note is that the RS6 has an electric boost pump for the brakes. I'd love to understand why they put this in te RS6 and not the S6. Initially I thought it was an automatic transmission thing. Not so, maybe??

The early B5 S4's didn't have them, but the later versions did. I'm wondering if it can be removed and what affect it will have if removed? Any thoughts on this?

[kday]

If there's an electric pump (where is it?) then the jet pump thing must be for something else. Crankcase vent maybe?

Turbo cars spend more time not making vacuum in the intake manifold. Not so much on the RS6 maybe but think about a little 1.3 liter turbo -- you'd be in boost every time you were on the gas.

[hahnmgh63]

The electric pump is right next to the Power steering resevoir. The Aux radiator coolant line that goes by the steering rack could be left and I wouldn't even bother to cap either end. That is #32 in the ETKA pic. I had my engine out so was anal and removed them all, including the other difficult one which is #24 I believe which is buried inside the bottom radiator/condensor assembly which must be dismantled if you want this one out. But then again when I did my KW's, I pulled every DRC pipe out from under the car and scrapped it rather than capping it off. The pipes mentioned are Aluminum pipes so they are not really adding weight or will they become a rust problem if you leave them open or capped.

[SzymekCRX]

kday, yes the SJP is helping to boost braking with the venturi effect

On the other hand I don't have a frickin idea why the designers put it UNDER the manifold and not just hanging around under the hood like in a VW or any other VAG car ! It's not that big :/

[Brav]

Another question - do I need to replace the intake manifold gaskets? they seem ok to reuse. Do I need to apply any special grease?

[mik15]

the guys from the Audi dealer where i took my car for the same problem said they will replace the intake manifold gasket as it is a must, they also said that the MAF's seals should be replaced as well if you take it out, this was mainly because i got an error code from them when they scanned it...the gasket price is about 50$ from what i understood, so i would say change it if you're there...

[Brav]

OK thanks. I already received my MAF seal kit from Apikol :)

[mik15]

how much was the kit?

[Brav]

59 bucks. including shipping and glue for the seals to help hold them in.

I finally set up a wholesale account (I have an auto dealer license) with local Audi Stealer. Prices are ALMOST as good as Genuine, but I dont pay shipping, and some are in stock for same day service. They said I need 2 o-rings per injector (rail and manifold side), so I will go with 8 since I cant see any leaks from rail. The plastic bit that I show broken is NOT order-able :( requires new injector. I assume I would be an idiot to reinstall the one with the chipped plastic washer, maybe I can get away with that cracked one. What is the purpose of those?

I guess I should order at least one new injector (Bosch for less than half the price, thanks Hahnmgh. By the way, have you or anyone else used the Bosch injectors yet as a replacement?

I did find it here for 93 bucks.. cheap!
http://www.theautopartsshop.com/fuel-injector/bs0280156167.html

[ben916]

59 bucks. including shipping and glue for the seals to help hold them in.

I finally set up a wholesale account (I have an auto dealer license) with local Audi Stealer. Prices are ALMOST as good as Genuine, but I dont pay shipping, and some are in stock for same day service. They said I need 2 o-rings per injector (rail and manifold side), so I will go with 8 since I cant see any leaks from rail. The plastic bit that I show broken is NOT order-able :( requires new injector. I assume I would be an idiot to reinstall the one with the chipped plastic washer, maybe I can get away with that cracked one. What is the purpose of those?

I guess I should order at least one new injector (Bosch for less than half the price, thanks Hahnmgh. By the way, have you or anyone else used the Bosch injectors yet as a replacement?

I did find it here for 93 bucks.. cheap!
http://www.theautopartsshop.com/fuel-injector/bs0280156167.html

That is CHEAP for a new injector!!!!

Also is there a link for the Apikol MAF seals?

[Brav]

That is CHEAP for a new injector!!!!

Also is there a link for the Apikol MAF seals?

I searched their site and couldn't find one. So I just emailed them and got a quick response from Doug, payment by paypal and done.

Also, ordered one injector from theautopartsshop.com, came to 112 with 2 day air. Summit was 140 with handling charge and air charge. Hopefully it works out.

[Brav]

Not much update today. I picked up my pump relocation kit to put in, and it seems it doesnt fit.

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font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]-->I think from the pics of the TSB that the dealer gave me with install instructions that its supposed to be for V6. The belt drive, hose locations and other references in the drawings don’t match up at all to what I am looking at. For example, under the intake manifold, the supplied 90% elbow plastic pipe does not fit right with the stock pump location.. it should be a linear coupling (see here where I disconnected). I have to really stretch it to come close to putting it on right.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1382.jpg

I got the intercoolers out, just had to push harder. Removed aux radiators, and will cap them off somehow. ICs are soaking, driver side was pretty dirty...

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1374.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1375.jpg

Also on drivers side upper IC hose.. the clamp was barely on evidenced by the indentation. this shows you where it was sitting if it were still installed.. maybe a leak source?
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1376.jpg

And finally, what are these 3 "rings" or holes that line up on the frame and sub-frame? looks like some bushing should be in there, but both sides are empty...
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1378.jpg

[SzymekCRX]

These holes are used for the suspension alignment procedure

[Brav]

Great thanks

Has anyone ever done the after run coolant pump relocation?

[mik15]

Brav - do you know the part number for the non return valve located under the manifold? here it takes 2 f... weeks to have it shipped from Germany as they do not have a stock and i want to buy it...

[ThrillHouse]

The shop that did mine didn't actually relocate it. We tried and looked. The only places we could see were 'before' feeding the engine, the OEM location is feeding the turbos. I made the call that its suppose to feed/cool the turbos and I'd like those to last. The pump itself is the same but the kit is just cheaper.

[kday]

Those holes are supposed to be open. I think they might be alignment holes for reinstalling the subframe.

Your ICs are dirty because they're leaking! All that dirt on the bottom is attracted by oil that leaked out.

[Brav]

The shop that did mine didn't actually relocate it. We tried and looked. The only places we could see were 'before' feeding the engine, the OEM location is feeding the turbos. I made the call that its suppose to feed/cool the turbos and I'd like those to last. The pump itself is the same but the kit is just cheaper.

Thanks for that info.. I again thought I was having an idiot moment, now I know not to waste any time with it. My pump seems fine but after 150k miles, I guess I might as well replace it at the stock location, and prevent a ticking time bomb.


Those holes are supposed to be open. I think they might be alignment holes for reinstalling the subframe.

Your ICs are dirty because they're leaking! All that dirt on the bottom is attracted by oil that leaked out.

Yep, had them soaking last night in soapy water. Got 90% of the grime off, now I will bast it with brake cleaner to get the rest. Drivers side was really bad. Can even see water leaking out of the core/end tank seams as i lift out of the water.

[Brav]

I will begin most of my reconstruction this evening. Does anyone have a procedure for instructions for installing new intake manifold gaskets? I have them, but don't know if I need to add a special grease, or what?

[Brav]

^^ the answer is NO grease. turns out to be just as much a bitch to put on as to take off. lining up the recirc hard pipes to the turbo inlet pipes while lowering onto the studs and horizontally onto the MAF seat housing is not fun. of course im dodging all sorts of other lines in the process.

UPDATE: and I'm still at it. The rage is starting to come back with this car. I am really at the limit of patience. Its nearly impossible to line up the MAF housing horizontal guides while also lining up the secondair air pump hard lines let alone the studs on the manifold. I GIVE UP. PLEASE GIVE ME A MAGIC TIP!

[4.2Crew]

^^
UPDATE: and I'm still at it. The rage is starting to come back with this car. I am really at the limit of patience. Its nearly impossible to line up the MAF housing horizontal guides while also lining up the secondair air pump hard lines let alone the studs on the manifold. I GIVE UP. PLEASE GIVE ME A MAGIC TIP!

I was wondering how the manifold reinstall was going to go... By the looks of your previous pics, it appears like a sum-bitch with all the hard lines, alignment and space issues etc, etc etc!

Hang-in there!... Good Luck!

[Brav]

I finally got it all aligned last night, with the help of a friend with a pry-bar. The MAF seat housing guides just were not lining up at all to the manifold. There are a few things with this operation that just require an extra set of hands. The manifold does not sit perfectly flush on the block yet, but I think with 1mm to go it should be ok to go ahead and start the bolt tightening sequence. Someone correct me if I am wrong.. the primary problem is the secondary air/recirc hard pipes that really mess the flow up.

I still can't believe I got this hose back onto this nipple. it was completely under the manifold. i brushed it with some coolant for lubrication, then fiddled with it for about 45 minutes with some needle nose pliers at the worst angle. too much pressure and it would collapse the hose, too little and it would slip off. I should have probably tried to connect it with the manifold off and at an angle, like you have to do with the SJP.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1395.jpg

[kday]

That does not look fun.

Nice work!

[Brav]

Seems scary the manifold only requires 10nm of torque? seems almost finger tight.. whats that about, 7lb/ft?

Got my intercoolers back today, welder said it was impossible to reach inside the seam due to the design. back to filling them the old fashion way.

[Brav]

Also, if someone could guide me as far as how to properly remove/replace the injector o-rings without damaging the plastic washer deal, I would greatly appreciate it. It seems other audi injectors have a smaller plastic washer (retainer?) and would be easier to pry it off, but this larger one makes it seem like I will break another. Thanks.

[Brav]

SHES ALIVE!! I fired her up before taking it out of service position to ensure I had done everything right. Well, started pissing fuel and really bad missfire. Like an idiot, I didnt tighten the fuel rail. Open circuit on cyl 5 injector as well. Wasnt pushed all the way down. easy 2 minute fixes, and fired up again after fuel cleanup, and idled like a kitten (just code for low coolant). Ran for 1 min, no other codes! I am buttoning her up now and will post more in a bit about my last few experiences that may help others.

I feel relieved and accomplished. I honestly never thought I would be able to do this myself. It took over a week longer than expected as I took my time and waited for parts and became busy. Hopefully I'm not speaking too soon.

the only problem I have is the airbox wont sit flush without being forced. Looks like I need to re-route some harness wires above the fuel rail... I am lest frustrated with that tho as the car is running.

[SzymekCRX]

Congrats on your job !!

[ThrillHouse]

Glad to hear it!

[kday]

Very cool.

I can say from experience that driving the beast after an unexpectedly long break for maintenance is particularly satisfying. (Especially if you were driving something uncomfortable and/or slow.)

[mik15]

+1 :), drove for the last week an Alfa Romeo 156 2.0i and after got the RS back and easily pressed the gas was like a rocket, i think we need from time to time to drive another car for a few days in order to realize what a great car it is :hahahehe:, not to mention the way i feel in the Audi just standing at the red light or in the parking, i love being inside this car, makes me feel like home, i love how the Recaro seat hugs me, how the suspension feels....i love it!! :)

[Chung]

It is one of the best feeling in the world when you get the beast back running. The issue is trying not to get speeding tickets.

Glad things are starting to work out.

[Brav]

Very cool.

I can say from experience that driving the beast after an unexpectedly long break for maintenance is particularly satisfying. (Especially if you were driving something uncomfortable and/or slow.)

This is so right, and clichet apparently... lol. Right when I pulled her out of the warehouse, I was like WOW I was missing this. I was driving an 02 LS430. Talk about night and day.

[Brav]

Still no codes or problems yet. Still in disbelief (that I did it right?). When the thing was all apart with parts scattered everywhere, I honestly thought I would have to hire someone to put humpty back together. In the end, its just a lot of small steps. There were a few cases that the right tool could have saved me hours (remote hose clamp tool). FWIW, out of laziness at 2 am, I left the rear shrouds off. I will try to do some IAT logs later, then maybe throw them back in and re-test.

If I had planned better and not wanted to mess around a lot with stupid things (injectors, aux rads, refurb intercoolers, afterrun coolant pump bad info from dealer), I could have had it done in probably 4 evenings, realistically. One thing I did right, was take lots of pictures before pulling apart, and as I went along. This really helped with re-running the hoses and harness.

I did make a few rookie mistakes which were fortunately correctable. I almost wasn't able to get the airbox on because of the way I routed the harness, and one connecter almost wasn't able to connect. It was supposed to run up between intake runners, but you have to snake it through BEFORE you put the manifold back on, which was not willing to remove again...

Here is how I routed it, supposed to come up by that green check-valve.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1407.jpg

and where I had to connect it, should be on other side. Very tight fit!
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1408.jpg

This is where I capped the auxiliary coolant pipes (see cap in center of photo). I bought the same NAPA Autoparts caps that SteveKen used in his writeup and they worked beautifully. (PN 660-1695, and 660-1696). The line on the left I believe is the feed line.. which also gets capped, but up underneath where the coolant reservoir is.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1424.jpg

coolant res lifted, the pipe on left from above photo feeds to that bulkhead fitting on the bottom then to that hose (which I left all in place.. for now). Then you can seep the other cap on this crazy custom fitting.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1425.jpg


Another shot of cap, from above. displaced and unused hose pushed aside and left in place.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1426.jpg


New injector o-ring vs old ones.. and the tool I used to put them on.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1406.jpg

Invaluable tool harmony! Saved a lot of time in some cases.. (STRONG magnet)
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1410.jpg

I am a happy camper now.. The only problem I have is an error for the "coolant control module 2" which I am not really sure of.

[alrightroad]

You need 32 bit to run ETKA. I tried to load it on win 7 64 running on my MacBook pro...no dice. Had to delete that virtual machine and reload with win 7 32bit ultimate.

JSRS6, PM'd you.

[Brav]

BTW I am running ETKA on my Win7 Pro 64 bit, with XP mode. I think you have to have Pro in XP mode to use 64 bit? Home wont work, without maybe some 3rd party software.

[kday]

In the end, its just a lot of small steps.

Exactly!

[Chung]

XP mode comes with Pro (and Ultimate). Home would need an upgrade or other virtualization software and an XP license.

[Brav]

Just wanted to update.. found a coolant leak. it was the napa cap.. heat deterioration. cracked badly

from here:

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/ckreidel/Audi%20RS6/IMAG1425.jpg

[ttboost]

Was that the rubber cap you used to plug the aux rad lines?

[Brav]

Was that the rubber cap you used to plug the aux rad lines?

Yep, there is one there near the coolant res, and another on passenger side of engine. That one looks OK, this one must get a lot hotter..

[ttboost]

Hmm have to take a look..that's on my list of things to do...starting with drilling out rivets on IC's to separate Aux rads.

[mdegracia]

Brav - I did the same thing, hard run on highway resulting in rough idle! Leak tested and got smoke under the intake manifold. So I have this same project scheduled for this weekend! Yeaaaayyyy.

Any chance you or anyone else can provide the after-run coolant pump relocation kit number and the suction jet pump number?

Also, I've deleted my SAI through REVO, besides 034 motorsport, are there any other block off plate options?

Thanks in advance,
Matt

[ttboost]

Make your own...using the gasket as a template and reusing the old gasket...

[mdegracia]

Good call!

Well, I managed to dig up the PNs fairly quickly, so the good news is the parts will be in tomorrow awaiting their install this weekend!

[Brav]

The pump relocation kit did NOT fit. I went around in circles with this. There is not a kit specifically made for the RS6. I simply used the new pump from the kit and put it in the stock location, unfortunately. It can be done, but the supplied pluming won't work, you will have to custom fab/cut some longer hoses and find a suitable location.... as we all know, "suitable location" and "RS6 engine bay" are not allowed to be mentioned in the same day.

Let us know if you need any help.. you will def need a pry-bar to get her off. Good luck!

[mdegracia]

Yeah, I ended up getting just the pump for $160.

[mdegracia]

Got the car back together yesterday evening after a good two days of wrenching. I replaced the jet suction and after-run pumps and ended up having to reuse the intake manifold gaskets, since they were unavailable. Didn't have any problems with reusing them.

Many thanks to Brav's pictures, I had to reference them a few times!

I pulled the rear SAI hoses off of the solenoids while I was in there to free up some extra room. Just have the solenoid valves at the heads remaining now, slowly removing all of that crap!

Also did a quick trans fluid drain (20k miles worht of use) and refill, so she should be good for awhile until the 01e conversion comes next year.

This car is definitely a labor of love!

[Brav]

Well done. Glad the pics helped!

[A4V8swap]

Yeah, I ended up getting just the pump for $160.

Where are you two getting these coolant pumps for 160? The going rate I see is 300 for the pumps. I have my intake manifold off now and figured I would replace it while I was in there.