Timing belt job -- what have I gotten myself into??

[kday]

Wow, this is a big job. I started yesterday and only now do I have the front clip in "service position", ready to start dismantling the front of the engine. I've been following the Bentley step by step. Any other car and I'd be done by now. (Granted, I only spent a few hours each day, but still.)

I am a little disappointed that this is all the room you get in service position -- is this right?

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2012-01-15_21-24-26_460-1024x575.jpg

[yokust]

Remove the upper rad hose from radiator and will move much further

[kday]

I removed both radiator hoses already. (I disconnected the upper hose at the junction with the clamp further in.) It guess it's hung up on something. Will look again. Thanks.

[kday]

Oh, another question: are there really two drains for coolant from the block, like the Bentley says? I could only find one, on the left side.

[JSRS6]

Did you unplug your headlights and turn signals?

[mik15]

good luck, a nice DIY would be very, very helpful for all the others who didn't dare to do it by themselves like my self :)

[hahnmgh63]

Either on here or on Quattroworld "Brazil" did a pretty nice writeup on the Timing Belt DIY about 2 years ago.

[kday]

Ah, much better:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0030-1024x679.jpg

It was that silly little hose from the big upper radiator hose that I missed somehow. Once that was out of the way, and the headlights disconnected, it's become much more spacious.

I will go look for the DIY writeup, thanks.

[ben916]

BRAVE man!

[lswing]

Nice clear pic, great to see the internals, good luck with the work!

[kday]

Ok, done for the night. I got the lock pin threaded into the crank, the cam bar installed, and the crank pulley removed.

That black thing threaded into the block is the crank lock pin. (Incidentally this is the same crank lock pin used as far back as the 12 valve V6. I already had one, which was nice.) To get it in you have to drop the sway bar and pull the left side turbo outlet hose.

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0037-1024x679.jpg

The hose. This is going to be fun to put back in...

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0036-1024x679.jpg

Cam bar:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0034-1024x679.jpg

Finally, a tip. If you are going to replace the tensioner/dampener, you don't need to buy the pin tool, since it comes with one. I don't know what I'm going to do with this extra $12 piece of bent wire.

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0038-1024x679.jpg

[SzymekCRX]

kday, did You have to drain the ATF fluid (disconnect trans radiator) and detach the AC radiator ?

[ben916]

Are you planning on doing the T-stat while you are there?

metal or plastic impeller on water pump?

[kday]

kday, did You have to drain the ATF fluid (disconnect trans radiator) and detach the AC radiator ?

Nope. The trans cooler, oil cooler, and AC condenser are still connected. That's the beauty of "service position", though it takes a lot more effort to get there on this car than others.

[kday]

Are you planning on doing the T-stat while you are there?

metal or plastic impeller on water pump?

The T-stat is actually the main reason I'm doing the belt now. The belt was done 30K miles ago. My thermostat has been sticking open, leading to cool running on the highway and intermittent ECU fault codes that run the fans on max all the time.

The water pump impeller is plastic. I got it from Blau. I would prefer metal but I don't think it's a big deal.

[lswing]

I was going to say, the belt looked pretty good there, and for 30k certainly. Isn't that the suggested change interval anyhow?

[kday]

I was going to say, the belt looked pretty good there, and for 30k certainly. Isn't that the suggested change interval anyhow?

The interval is 35k or 40k depending on how you read the schedule.

I have done a few timing belts on other cars at more normal intervals (60k or 90k) and have never seen a belt that looked bad. But with interference motors who wants to take the chance? Especially on one like this that's probably worth more than the car. I think it's good to refresh the bearings in the rollers, tensioners, and water pump though. I have come across squeaky bearings and leaky water pumps in the small number of belt jobs I've done.

[QuattroRS]

The weak link in the 4.2tt is not the belt. It is the small rollers on top. If you think about it....due to the small size of the roller/bearing and high speed rpms that component is exposed to....there is the weak link. I have pulled 30k roller with a squeek/rough feeling in the past. fyi

Nice work so far and good detailed pictures.

[905084]

How many miles on the beast? Throttle body looks fairly clean.

[4everRS]

Be cautious of the bolts holding the water pump on. There is one, I think towards to top, that goes into the water jacket and can corrode on the end of the threads. This happened to me, had to drill it out. Not fun.

[kday]

How many miles on the beast? Throttle body looks fairly clean.

It just turned 100,000 last week.

The intercooler hoses are a bit oily but no oil poured out when I removed them. The one over by the oil filter is coated in oil on the outside though. Not sure if that's coming from within or if someone was sloppy with an oil change.

[kday]

Be cautious of the bolts holding the water pump on. There is one, I think towards to top, that goes into the water jacket and can corrode on the end of the threads. This happened to me, had to drill it out. Not fun.

Ugh. Did the socket head strip, or did the threaded portion snap off?

I had to hammer in the hex driver to do the little crank pulley bolts -- they were all pretty corroded inside the socket.

I bought the fancy VAG crank/cam seal puller but I'm not sure if I am going to do the cam seals or not. There is a bit of oil down by the crank seal. I might do that but I'll have to go to the dealer to get another big bolt. I figured a long weekend would be enough time to do this job but clearly not at my speed. Good thing I have a few other cars I can drive in the meantime.

[kday]

Another question: the hydraulic toothed belt dampener/tensioner thing doesn't seem to be described in the Bentley. Clearly some more stuff has to come off to replace that. Do I need to remove the torsion mount (snub mount) over on the right side of the engine to get to that?

[hahnmgh63]

Yes you need to remove the snub mount and the aluminum bracket there to get the hydraulic tensioner out. I replaced all of my crank pulley and waterpump bolts along with all of the bolts/studs that hold the tensioners as we had a forum member a couple of years ago have a bolt/stud break and he got lucky that the belt didn't go but it could have been catastrophic. Since your car is a NE car with the rust on those I would replace them all anyways.

[JSRS6]

I've seen plastic impellers with badly worn, and occasionally missing(from wear), vanes pulled off VAG cars. If you have the means, I recommend switching to metal impeller-pump.

[hahnmgh63]

My car had a metal impeller waterpump when I changed it out last fall. It did have it's 35K service in 2006 at 32K but I can't remember if they changed the waterpump then or not. I'm not home right now to look at the original service receipt. No when I did the timing belt on my tt ('02 225bhp 1.8t) last year it was time to do but the real reason was because it started to overheat and when I pulled the waterpump it had the plastic impeller, which appeared to be fine but it was spinning on the shaft, kind of a shrink fit to a knurled shaft, bad idea VAG.

[kday]

My understanding is that the plastic impeller problems are largely in the past, due to materials changes. Blau has video and writeup describing it here: http://www.blauparts.com/audi_water_pump_replacement/audi_water_pump_plastic_impeller_controversy.html According to that, the "plastic" (PPS) impellers are reliable and higher performance than the metal ones.

In any case, with the short change interval, I am not worried about it.

[kday]

This is kind of funny...

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0045-1024x679.jpg

The aftermarket part is identical, except the Audi logo and part number are milled off. Pay less, get weight savings!

[TozoM8]

It could be the same manufacturer. They are not authorized re-sellers for OEM parts.

[kday]

Oh, it certainly is the same manufacturer -- NTN, cast into both parts. It came in an NTN box.


So this is the pinnacle of this job (or the nadir?): I have finally started putting new parts on the car, rather than removing stuff. New crank seal is in:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF00731-1024x679.jpg


I've never liked this method of removing the old seal -- it seems very error prone. One slip and your crank is f*ed:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0071-1024x679.jpg

I purchased the VAG seal remover tool with the intention of avoiding the screw method, but I didn't read carefully. There are actually two seal extractor tools, and the one I bought is for the cam seals. My cam seals are dry so I am leaving them alone.

[kday]

Couple more pics

This was my first attempt at removing the cam sprockets, using the cam bar to keep the cam from turning while I turned in the puller bolt. It didn't work because the cam bar interfered with the puller arms:
http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0055-1024x679.jpg

Second, successful attempt:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0058-1024x679.jpg


So far all of the Blau parts look exactly like the Audi parts coming off the car. The only exception is the bolt for the toothed belt tensioner, which is maybe 5 mm shorter:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0047-1024x679.jpg

Can't imagine that will make a difference. (Pardon the mess...)

[lswing]

Thanks for the great photos again, keep it up!

[hahnmgh63]

Here you guys, did a little searching and found this old link from Brazil's writeup.
http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs6/msgs/1360.phtml

[SzymekCRX]

1. kday, why did You want to remove the cam sprockets ?

2. why did You remove the cam bar (holder) ? wouldn't they turn now slipping from the original position ? ora are You going to turn and set them just before putting the new belt ?

[kday]

1. kday, why did You want to remove the cam sprockets ?

It's a necessary part of setting the timing with the new belt. You need to let the sprockets move while setting the belt tension. The alignment bar keys into the camshafts themselves, holding them in place, while the sprockets can rotate. With the crank held via the pin I showed earlier, and the cams held in place with the bar, the timing relationship is fixed, and the belt is free to move while being tensioned.



2. why did You remove the cam bar (holder) ? wouldn't they turn now slipping from the original position ? ora are You going to turn and set them just before putting the new belt ?

The could move a little now, which is why I was counter-holding with the pliers. But they can be restored to their correct position with the cam bar, which doesn't connect to the sprockets.

[kday]

On the water pump issue, the water pump I removed yesterday had a metal impeller, but was not an Audi part. This is the third time on the timing belt, as it should be. The first time was done by Audi but they didn't do the pump:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/35kservice.png

The second time was obviously done by an independent. I don't think an Audi tech would use white-out on the cam sprockets. (Fortunately they didn't only use white-out to align the cams -- the timing was correct before I removed anything.)

Audi did replace the "beltdamper", which I thought was interesting. I didn't think that was a normal part of the service -- they don't mention it in the Bentley. Who knows what was motivating this extra cautious service interval...

They also replaced the cam bolts, which I guess I should do as well. I wonder how much this small bag of bolts I need from Audi is going to cost me...

[ttboost]

Yup..nice work...I did mine while the engine was out..way easier...you know...except for the engine out thing...do EVERYTHING you can think of while you are there...belt, all rollers. idlers, water pump, Tstat and serpentine belt if you're not sure...

[hahnmgh63]

I agree, clean it up as much as possible and replace all bolts/studs while in there as many do stretch & weaken after being installed once little alone twice and some are stretch bolts and only meant to be tightened once. Although I would say there is no need to remove the cam pulleys to time the belt, only if your replacing the cam seals. The pulleys have a hole notch in them next to the bolt for the tool to fit in without the removal of the cam pulleys.

[kday]

I disagree on the cam sprockets -- if you don't loosen them, the belt will be tensioned unevenly and the timing will shift. This is standard procedure on all Audi V engines going back a while. It's really the whole point of the cam alignment bar.

I just ordered all of the bolts from Audi. They won't be here until Friday so I have plenty of time to do the 'while you're in there' stuff. I think I'm going to pull the intercoolers and check them for leaks.

Incidentally, I first got a quote from the Audi dealer closest to my house, who I tend to avoid for various reasons. $155 for the bolts. Then I called another dealer that's not as close by but has always treated me well -- $42. It pays to shop around!

Edited to add: in addition to getting the belt tension even, the infinitely adjustable cam sprockets let you compensate for variation in belts, manufacturing tolerances of pulleys, etc. Even if the timing is just a little off it could rob a lot of power.

[4everRS]

I agree with you kday on the sprockets. It may not be critical to do it, but it is going to make the alignment of the belt much easier. It's in the manual.

Great work and great pics. I would consider a new voltage regulator for the alternator. It's soo easy to get where your at.

[kday]

I would consider a new voltage regulator for the alternator. It's soo easy to get where your at.

Hmm... just did a search and I can see your point! Surprising, I have like 175k on the original regulator on my S4.

From the pics it seems like people get to the regulator from underneath -- do I have the option of getting to it from above now? Not sure where the bolts are. Would prefer to not disconnect the oil lines if I can help it.

[4everRS]

Ya, not sure why these regulators seem to go bad around 80-100k miles on some cars.

I did mine from underneath. You have to take the oil lines off at the filter that way. You can see in your pic of the front of the engine that there are 2 bolts holding the alternator on. It needs to come out, then there are just a couple Phillips screws and a nut, on the back of the alternator. I got mine from an auto-electric shop for 100 bucks. Cleaned up the windings with degreaser while it was out.

[kday]

Oh yeah, hey, didn't think to look at my own picture. Looks like I could disconnect the electrical connections, unbolt it, and pull it out from up top without touching the oil lines. Will give it a shot. I wonder what Audi wants for a regulator...

[4everRS]

They won't sell you one. They will sell you a whole alternator! Yeah. I tried 2 dealerships up here in mn. No dice. I had a write up on the replacement. I'll try to find it for part numbers. I had a real hard time getting one. Tried various online sources. Genuine said they had them online, them I got an email from bill that said they are a month out. They might have them now.

[4everRS]

Here ya go. Not my write up, but it should give you some info.

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/19720-Alternator-replacement

[kevin]

They won't sell you one. They will sell you a whole alternator! Yeah. I tried 2 dealerships up here in mn. No dice. I had a write up on the replacement. I'll try to find it for part numbers. I had a real hard time getting one. Tried various online sources. Genuine said they had them online, them I got an email from bill that said they are a month out. They might have them now.

bosch 003 154 65 06
oem 077-903-803a

[Bigglezworth]

Ah yes. Just did two of these jobs in November on each of the rides here. Gets quicker each time you do it. Shaved off a full 2 hours for the second job in comparisson to the first.

[kday]

Nice! I just ordered 077-903-803a from the dealer, it should be available on Saturday. $130. Hope that's the right part number :)

[kday]

D'oh. Literally minutes after I ordered the Audi part, I received this email from a local auto electric shop:


I do not have this reg in stock but it is available both OEM Bosch for $59.00 and aftermarket for $56.00.

[kevin]

D'oh. Literally minutes after I ordered the Audi part, I received this email from a local auto electric shop:



make google your friend next time!
:)

[kday]

I did actually google the part numbers a bit... and to my surprise the World Impex price for the Audi part number was significantly more than the dealer price. They are usually good on pricing -- that's where I bought my timing belt tools for cheaper than Baum et al.

[kevin]

The bosch p/n yields better results.

[hahnmgh63]

http://www.koperformance.com/part-number/0031546506/BOSCH

[kday]

Well, I hope I don't have to eat crow on the plastic water pump issue. I installed it last night, and the first time I bolted it up, it felt like the bearing was catching. There were two spots 180 degrees apart where the pulley would catch. I had checked the rotation before I installed it and it was smooth. It turns out that even with all bolts loosely installed, the water pump can move a few mm up and down -- i.e. the bolt holes do not sufficiently align the pump to the block. The impeller was actually touching the block at one two points. (This also seems to suggest that the impeller is not perfectly round.)

I didn't measure them, but note the difference in the bolt holes in this picture:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/DSCF0076-1024x679.jpg


The pump is now installed so that there is no interference, but I am not thrilled about this. I'm already way behind schedule on this job, but I can't finish it this weekend anyway -- I won't have the crank bolt until at least Monday. Now I am debating buying a new OEM water pump. Hmm...

[kday]

By the way, I checked all of the water pump bolt holes to see if any went into the water jacket, and none do. 8 of the 9 are blind holes, and the 9th is at the top and goes into empty space under the intake manifold. I bet that's the one people have had corrosion problems with, since it's exposed to the environment.

[NSU RS6]

Now I am debating buying a new OEM water pump. Hmm...

I would. Way too much work there to have a weak spot to worry about. Send that one back.

[Elevens]

Now I am debating buying a new OEM water pump. Hmm...

I Just installed the Same Water Pump on My 2.7T and was a little worried about longevity. But I do trust Blauparts in that they have a Reputation to maintain and if they say that they have tested it against the Metal impeller units and found it to be superior, I wouldn't worry about it. Unless you figure you have a faulty unit, which I doubt. Remember these are the New Improved Water Pumps and not the old ones. And If I am not wrong I believe the newer cars come with the Plastic Impeller pumps because of superior performance.

[hahnmgh63]

From Passat world and I'd have to agree with the points being made and you can't tell me the German OEM manufacturers are knowingly selling inferior metal pumps to us. The Blau video say's that after 2000, PPS was used, my 2001 Audi tt had a failure, the material didn't disintegrate like some but started spinning on the knurled shaft, eitheir a presson on, or molded impeller.

I'm totally impartial to either. I think the PPS water pumps would probably be fine. I'll even overlook the fact Blauparts has a vested interest in this because they almost exclusively sell plastic water pumps. However, consider some points from their video:

1) "Since 2000, they have switched to PPS..." Well, that's all and good, but seeing as the majority of our cars were made SINCE that year, and some have still suffered failure, it's safe to say that there are other factors that cause the plastic ones to fail where the metal ones usually don't.

2) "The engineers have designed the pump for the optimal flow rate...Please respect what the engineers have chosen for your car..." That sounds like something designed to scare people that aren't in the know. Engine coolant doesn't circulate all that much compared to other closed pump systems, so 1GPH or so either way isn't going to affect things all that much.

3) "Plastic is lighter, so doesn't wear bearings as quickly..." While this is theoretically true, the metal part is still light enough that it doesn't matter.

4) "Plastic allows better fin design..." See #2. Why would I care? A standard fin design works well enough.

5) "Plastic parts can be perfectly smooth. Metal parts are full of bumps, which could impede flow and cause cavitation..." Oh my God, cavitation! What are we doing, trying to be stealthy in a frickin' submarine?!? EVERY prop or pump will cavitate when overdriven, like when you run your engine at high rpm! And even if it does, or if you have a problem with bumpy metal parts, see #2 again!

If I were to accidentally install a plastic water pump over a metal one, I wouldn't cry myself to sleep about it. The whole thing boils down to the fact that plastic parts cost less to make than metal ones, so tend to be more profitable to sell.

[kday]

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. It's not the plastic per se that bothers me, though I also find it hard to believe that it is actually better than metal. I don't like that 1) there is enough runout that the impeller only interfered with the block at two locations and 2) the mounting holes in the pump body are loose enough to allow the pump to be installed in a position where the impeller interferes.

I'm still undecided on whether to order an OEM pump. The price is pretty steep relative to the aftermarket ones (I'm seeing $300+ online; will inquire at the dealer tomorrow) and the odds of failure seem pretty small.

[hahnmgh63]

077121004N or add an X for the factory rebuilt. New at $280 or rebuilt at $108 from Genuine. AutohausAZ has a Graf pump at $80.93 http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=kdxepr55gouooi55cwz331it&makeid=800002@Audi&modelid=1411401@RS6 &year=2003&cid=16@Cooling System&gid=2208@Water
which is an OEM supplier to many of the German automotive companies.

[kday]

By Genuine do you mean genuineaudiparts.com? I see the water pump there for $311.74 and no option for rebuilt. Am I missing something?

[hahnmgh63]

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD>Part Number</TD><TD>077121004N </TD></TR><TR><TD>Part Name</TD><TD>WATER PUMP </TD></TR><TR><TD>MSRP</TD><TD align=right>$364.52</TD></TR><TR><TD>Core</TD><TD align=right>$0.00</TD></TR><TR><TD>Online Price</TD><TD align=right>$271.20</TD></TR><FORM method=get name=basepart action=index.cfm><TR><TD colSpan=2 align=middle><INPUT class=cartButton value="Add to Cart" type=button> </TD></TR></FORM></TBODY></TABLE>
http://genuineaudiparts.com/parts/index.cfm?searchText=077121004N&make=Audi&action=oePartSearch&siteid=214407
To search for the remanufactured just add the "X" suffix after the "N" in the part #.

[kday]

Thanks.

I don't understand why I get a different price if I go by model:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/wp.png

[kday]

Ok, well I think I made up my mind. They have the -X part locally for $144 and I have to go back there to get my voltage regulator and crank bolt anyway. I'll see if they will match the $108 price but even if they don't, $144 for peace of mind is worth it.
I wonder if Blau will take my Saleri pump back...

[hahnmgh63]

I would think if you let them know of the fitment issue they will take it back, maybe they can offer you an alternative OEM pump instead of the same in a replacement? I always search Genuine with the Audi part #'s from ETKA as I've had to many parts places send me the wrong part when they look it up for me. I would be curious though what part # Genuine shows for the RS6 as I checked two different versions of ETKA and still come up with the same part #. Also, the Graf pump from AutohausAZ is also a OEM supplier to VAG.

[kday]

Some updates on my long-running project:

I installed the Audi water pump instead of the Saleri. It had a metal impeller and a better gasket. The rest of the Blau kit looks good, so my recommendation is to see if they will sell the kit without the Saleri water pump and go Audi for that part only.

Next up was pressure testing the intercoolers. This is my improvised test setup:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0095-1024x679.jpg

Both intercoolers leaked badly, particularly in the lower inboard corner. I have them half epoxied now and will do the other half tonight. JB Weld thinned with acetone takes longer than usual to cure.

One of my aux radiators is leaking:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0096-1024x679.jpg

I am pondering whether I should block off the one that leaks or just remove them both. If I remove both, is there any reason to keep coolant flowing through that circuit? I.e. block off or loop together?

On to the alternator -- it is in fact possible to remove it from the top, if the torque mount is removed. I am not sure it's a whole lot easier from above, but at least you can skip removing the oil lines.

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0158-1024x679.jpg

When I got the alternator out I noticed it had a "remanufactured" sticker on it. I checked my records, and sure enough, it was replaced at 65k miles. I probably wouldn't have bothered if I had realized that. I am guessing that the reason the RS6 alternators are fragile is because there is no air ducting. This is surprising. Anyone happen to know how if the other 4.2s have an alternator air duct? I know the 12v V6 and 20v I5 have ducts.

Brush wear after 35k miles:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0166-1024x679.jpg


Finally, parts going back on:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0174-1024x679.jpg

[kday]

Oh yeah, I also replaced the cam seals. They weren't leaking but I wanted to try out the tool:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0084-1024x679.jpg

It didn't really live up to my expectations, but it does work. The hard part is getting any bite into old, hard seals. I guess the fact that the seals were hard justifies replacing them.

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0089-1024x679.jpg

[SteveKen]

I can attest that the S6 had a cooling duct for the alternator.

[kday]

Interesting. And I assume the S6 isn't known for alternator failures?

Any idea if it could be retrofitted?

[4.2Crew]

I've been watching your thread like a hawk!... And have an intercooler question if you don't mind:

Please have tolerance for the noob here!

On Saturday, I decided it was a good time to inspect and test the intercoolers for leaks... So, removed all the neccessary items to get at them (bumber, headlights, shrouds and hoses and lower bolt.) Once in there, I became perplexed as to why I wasn't able to wiggle the IC's free???? Could someone please explain (articulate) how/what the relationship is between the IC and secondary radiators??? Are they one unit?... Meaning to remove the IC you need to remove and drain coolant? Or, are they sister'd or sandwiched together somehow with the option of removing the IC's without a coolant drain?

Again, awsome write-up, thread and pics!

Thanks!

[4.2Crew]

When I got the alternator out I noticed it had a "remanufactured" sticker on it. I checked my records, and sure enough, it was replaced at 65k miles. I probably wouldn't have bothered if I had realized that. I am guessing that the reason the RS6 alternators are fragile is because there is no air ducting. This is surprising. Anyone happen to know how if the other 4.2s have an alternator air duct? I know the 12v V6 and 20v I5 have ducts.

Brush wear after 35k miles:

[/IMG]

Yes, the 2000-2004 A6 4.2L has a cooling duct... I remember removing it to access the SAI pump and a lower radiator elbow flex hose.... It is simply a friction fit type shroud.

[lswing]

The aux radiators are attached to the back of the IC's with a bracket, not sure about pulling just the IC's...

Myself and a few others on here have removed our aux rads for a few reasons; leaking and costly to replace; they impede airflow through the IC; act as a heat sink on the IC; there is no apparent need for them unless you are in warm temps with lots of stop and go traffic, read SoCal, Arizona, Texas, and so on....

Thanks again for the nice pics and details of your work. My mech does all mine and I get to check it out, but this certainly gives more insight into the car.

[kday]

I don't think the aux radiators would help much in stop and go traffic. Since there are no fans the car needs to be moving at a decent clip for them to have any effect. I could see them being very useful for high speed highway driving in the southwest though.

Regarding removing the intercoolers, yes, the auxiliary radiators are riveted to the intercoolers. You need to remove them as a unit, so you need to drain the coolant, etc. There are also brackets which hold the leading edge of the front fenders that go through the ductwork, and I'm not sure you can wiggle the assembly off without removing those. Once everything is disconnected, they go out the top. I'll post pics of my epoxied ICs later tonight, which should make it obvious how they attach to the car.

[4everRS]

Great posts kday. Thanks for sharing this with the forum.

Regarding the aux radiators, on a track, I assume these rads would provide a substantial amount of extra cooling. Also, assuming your not driving in reverse, and air is moving at 50 mph+ front to rear, would there really be a heat soak problem?

[905084]

Awesome pics kday!. Although I'm scared to do my sons A6 4.2 timing belt now. 4.2Crew, the I/C's come out with the aux rads and the rear cooling shrouds all in one piece. Just take the fender to unibody brace off that sits in between the rear shroud plastic(3x30 torx). I busted my first rear plastics to bits before I found that.

[kday]

Glad everyone is enjoying the pictures. There is a practical benefit too -- sometimes I don't remember how things were originally put together! I'm still searching for the perfect system for keeping track of which screw goes where though. ETKA can usually help in a pinch but sometimes it's vague.

The timing belt procedure itself is actually really easy. The Bentley instructions are clear and straightforward assuming you have all of the special tools and don't have to improvise (I suggest not improvising.) The hard part is getting everything out of the way, and then (presumably -- I'll find out soon enough) putting it all back together.

[Aronis]

kday, nice write up...i'm tempted to give it a try....

Mike

[kday]

Ok, finally getting close to wrapping this job up. I thought I'd get it done over a long weekend but all of those "while you're in there" tasks really add up. As long as the epoxy is dry on my intercoolers tomorrow I should have it back on the road on Monday.

The JB Weld thinned with Acetone flows nicely and is easy to apply, but it takes a lot longer than usual to dry.

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0103-1024x679.jpg

Both of my intercoolers had one area where most of the leaking was -- the bottom inboard corner. I removed the fins around there with a thin screwdriver to make sure the epoxy had good coverage. I used the paintbrush dipped in acetone to clean everything as well as I could. The oil stains were telltale signs of where the leaks were.

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0002-1024x679.jpg


Next up -- Auxiliary radiator bypass. One of mine was leaking, and I debated whether I should replace it, or reconfigure the system to use one radiator, or just remove the system. I opted to remove both. I used some of the hoses to make a bypass:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0015-1024x679.jpg

I couldn't tell from the cooling system diagram whether it was OK to simply cap off the aux circuit. If it's in parallel with the main radiator, then capping off would be better, since this would effectively short circuit part of the coolant flow. But the presence of the one way check valve makes me think that it's not so simple. Does anyone know what the coolant routing is on the Euro cars that didn't come with the aux radiators?

I needed a hose union for this bypass using the leftover hoses to work. The hose ID is ~16mm and presumably something could be found at the auto parts store but for some stupid reason they aren't open after midnight! Fortunately I have a little lathe and some aluminum stock:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0013-1024x679.jpg


Finally, one note on the timing mark on the harmonic balancer:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0005-1024x679.jpg

That line was perfectly centered when I started. The keyway on the balancer is larger than the key on the timing sprocket, and it can be off a little. This is harmless except it will make it a little harder to get the crank lock pin in the next time.

[hahnmgh63]

Take a look at this thread as it has been covered. ETKA has a whole subsection on the Aux radiators as they are just an add-on option that can be removed and pretty much capped off. Some of the pipes can't be removed easily with the engine in the car but I removed mine while the engine was out and if you look at the diagram of the Aux radiators in the post below, I removed about every single hose, pipe, and clamp in the ETKA picture.
http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/22631-Manual-Conversion-Thread-RS6-with-01E/page4

[kday]

I missed that in my searching, thanks. Where does #36 source from? That's what I couldn't figure out.

[hahnmgh63]

#36 is the hose that is behind the engine cowl that hooks to the Cooland Resevoir. Steve Ken's thread had the Balkamp hose/pipe rubber plug pics and I just used the part #'s from the pics and ordered an assortment of them from Napa autoparts online.

[kday]

Ok. I'll revisit this when I have the engine out for the 6 speed swap. Anyone know if the cars without the hot weather package have different metal pipes (lower rad pipe & coolant tank pipe) without these additional ports?

[hahnmgh63]

I don't have my computer with ETKA on it with me here but if you have ETKA you can go to the ROW (Rest of the World) pages and look at the cooling system and compare the pipes. That is how I determined that the Aux radiators were just a tagged on addtion to the cooling system and that capping off the feeds without bypassing them was all that was needed.

[kday]

I decided to build a coolant pressure tester to make sure I got everything back together right.

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0022-1024x679.jpg

That's some 1/8 NPT pipe epoxied into a spare coolant cap. This is a little tricky since the part of the cap you grab and turn is not the part that seals.

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0032-1024x679.jpg

I use this leakdown tester for a lot more than leakdown testing. It's handy because with the two gauges and built-in restriction you can see leaks by the difference in the gauges.

I am glad I did this test, because I found two (!) leaks. One was this:

http://blog.ultrameta.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DSCF0034-1024x679.jpg

This is the radiator petcock. I guess the O-ring seized in place and got torn when I unscrewed it to drain the coolant. Fortunately I found a matching O-ring in a kit on the shelf.

The other leak was the lower radiator hose. It was leaking at the clamp to the pipe. The clamp was in the right place, and looked OK, but it wasn't holding. It was a very slow leak at 1 bar but quite fast at 1.5 bar. I replaced it with a worm gear clamp. Something to watch out for...

[SzymekCRX]

Good job, kday. Had the same simple idea of the tester :)

[SFJ_RS6]

Hello kday. Nice job here and thanks for the pictures! I've been following this thread with interest since you're dealing with many of the same issues that I am.

I have my engine on my workbench and am planning to replace seals as a preventative measure. I haven't invested in the Audi special tools for seal removal and installation. I got my main seal out the same way you did, a method I've used in the past. Cam seals - it sounds like you used your Audi tool for cam seal removal. Based on your experience, do you think the cam seals could be removed using the sheet metal screw and pull technique? Just interested in your thought on this. I could invest $$$ in the Audi tools, but if I can do it as well without them....

Thanks,
Steve

[kday]

Sure, there isn't anything special about the cam seals that precludes the screw method. I did it that way on an Audi V6 (same seals, or at least very similar) and it worked OK. It just always made me nervous and I was looking for a better way. I'm happy to lend you the tool if you want it, though as I mentioned it didn't quite live up to my expectations. I would say it's not any easier or any faster, it's just less error prone.

[SFJ_RS6]

Thanks for letting me know what you think about this, and for the offer to loan me the tool. When I get to the point of replacing the cam seals I'll scope it out, and let you know if I want to borrow the seal remover or not. Given the high prices for the bits on the RS6, there is something to be said for going the less error prone route.

BTW - my daily driver is a '92 100CS with the 2.8L 12-valve V6 engine that we bought new. Sounds like you have some experience in that vein. I like the car and engine, and it's doing fine going on 200,000 miles. Good to have when my RS6 is on the bench!

Steve

[kday]

Yes, I am familiar with the 12 valve for sure. My wife drives a 96 A6 Avant that is on the cusp of 250k. I've been thinking about replacing it with something newer but it just keeps going. Well, I did replace the engine a few years ago, but it's been great aside from that.

[SFJ_RS6]

Yep - basically the same car - and you have an impressive number of miles! Just curious - what prompted your engine replacement? Our '92 has had it's share of problems over the years. It was my start at learning to do mechanical work on Audis. The biggest thing now is that it's becoming hard to get some parts for it. I blame a lot of its problems on being the first year of a new design. I sometimes jokingly refer to it as a mechanic's car - only a mechanic can drive it to compensate for it's idiosyncrasies!

[kday]

The original engine blew its headgasket at 220k, and it went unnoticed for a while. Enough coolant got in the oil that the bearings got messed up. I replaced it with a younger engine ("only" 170k) and prior to installing it I replaced every seal on it, to try to tame the infamous 2.8 oil leaks. It wasn't entirely successful, but it's better than it was. That's the only major mechanical problem the car has had, and if I was driving it regularly at the time it would have been less major (doing headgaskets with the engine in the car is pretty easy). There have been plenty of little issues though.

I also have a 94 S4 but it will be moving on soon -- it's redundant with the RS6 around and I could use the extra space in the driveway.

[NSU RS6]

I also have a 94 S4 but it will be moving on soon -- it's redundant with the RS6 around and I could use the extra space in the driveway.

Ditto. My near fully RS2'd 1994 S4 is redundant in my driveway as well. Buying the RS6 was predicated on me getting rid of it. Just ordered a driveshaft center bearing and new brake lines so I can sell it fully sorted (mostly). Mostly being inop A/C (not needed but maybe a half dozen days up here in Seattle when you want to feel the heat baby!), and no drivers seat heater. The pearl white paint is tired but not as bad as what I have seen. Probably up for sale in a couple of weeks. Funny, I had it on a friends lift Wednesday night (he is a Porsche/Audi mechanic) and I remarked how simple everything was on the UrS4. He told me I should keep it, so that I have something to drive when the RS6 is down - "because NOTHING is easy on that car".

My wife would kill me then divorce me if I even thought I could get away with that...

[kday]

I toyed with the idea of keeping my S4, but what put me over the edge was having to maintain yet another car. It is a lot simpler than the RS6, but it's still an Audi and it will still need regular attention (and a lot more of it than the simpler A6). Plus I can sell the car for roughly what the remaining parts I need for the 6 speed swap in the RS6 will cost. I would definitely keep it if I didn't have another backup car for the RS6 though.

My S4 is pretty rough cosmetically, so while it does have some nice go-fast parts on it, it will get parted out by its next owner. 18 years in New England has taken its toll. Surprisingly, the A6, though only 2 years newer, still looks good aside from some rash on the hood.

[NSU RS6]

My S4 has lived its entire life within a 20 mile radius of North Seattle. It is in really good shape. The interior especially. I actually like the seats better in my S4 than the RS6....

It has been a great car, and the new owner better appreciate it.

[SFJ_RS6]

I have a 93 S4 (tornado red) that I have managed to keep in the family by passing it down to my college-age son. It's going on 90K miles, stock, and has been a good solid car with very few problems. Much better in that regard than the 92 100CS. My biggest complaint about the S4 is probably cosmetic - Audi didn't put a clear coat over the tornado red color coat, so the paint requires quite a bit of maintenance to keep it looking good. I agree with NSU RS6 about preferring the Recaro S4 seats to those in the RS6.

[kday]

I also prefer the Ur-Recaros to the ones in the RS6, though they both are nice. I am going to keep the seats from my S4 when I sell it. I've got the passenger seat here in my home office already. I'm going to weld up a base for it; I think it will be a nice reading chair :)

Anyway, on topic: it only took me a month of weekends, but my RS6 is finally back on the road!