Last attempt to save my JHM rotors.. [Archive] - RS6.com

Brav

December 7th, 2011, 20:57

I was told that turning them will F them up if not done on a proper type of mill.. standard brake rotor turning machine will get the bit fouled up by the slots (or holes) and in turn mess up the rotor itself. Does anyone know the proper name of the machine so I can ask around? someone told me but I forgot.. I think it starts with a B? Blanchard? I am getting very frustrated with this setup (JHM/EBC reds). JHM posits its all the pads fault.. I dont want to toss 1k down the drain in recent rotors.

After doing this I will go with Hawk HPS or stoptech.. thought of EBC yellows, but they left a bad taste in my mouth.

kday

December 7th, 2011, 21:56

There is indeed a process colloquially known as Blanchard Grinding which is used to grind a surface smooth.
Never heard of it being used on brake rotors but it makes sense. You should be able to find a machine shop that can do it.

Brav

December 7th, 2011, 22:19

Great, thanks for the confirmation.

Brav

January 10th, 2012, 00:47

I couldn't get anyone to do Blanchard grinding on my rotors.. so I had them resurfaced the normal way. I switched to cheap Posi-quiet pads at the same time. I was tired at continuing to waste time and money replacing all the other things JHM recommended. So far after 5 days, no vibrations under braking.. yes!! I still have high speed vibration, but I dont think from the brakes. I don't know if I can recommend the JHM rotors still, my feeling is they should handle any pad OEM rotors can, if not more. I haven't done any crazy hard braking yet, as I just want them to bed nice and easy with low heat at this point. If they vibrate at all anymore, I am going to mail them back to JHM along with some anthrax.

MaxRS6

January 10th, 2012, 00:51

^Sounds good.

I actually just warped a set of Stasis rotors (only 4K miles) at a recent track event. I have sent the rotors to Stasis for their inspection and comments. They should be able to handle a couple of track days without issue. It isn't like I'm setting track lap records. I may need to borrow some of the white stuff if you have extra. To date though- I must say Stasis have been responsive and I look forward to their findings.

Brav

January 10th, 2012, 01:21

Thats good. JHM blames pads and bed in process. I have owned many cars and track cars.. never had this problem. They never offered anything as far as help, and I am pretty sure they are Chinese cast rings. Might work OK in some scenarios for street, and even track, but I hate having to be the guinea pig in pad testing. They should at least warn people. Seems they know of the issue, but call it an EBC problem..

4everRS

January 10th, 2012, 05:45

Brav

January 10th, 2012, 17:07

Yea thats not great.. maybe EBC does have a problem with over temping. With whatever rotor you go with, I wouldn't get EBC.

JSRS6

January 10th, 2012, 17:43

Good ole trial and error!

johnnie27

January 10th, 2012, 22:22

Yea thats not great.. maybe EBC does have a problem with over temping. With whatever rotor you go with, I wouldn't get EBC.

hi Brav, i was going to get the JH rotors, searched alot for info on them, was very hard to get them on the ph too...i ended up going oem from ECS tuning ... a tunning shop here in OZ has had quality issues w/ RS4 rotors from JH (1/2 a drive day), i have also just installed the HAWK HPS pads, they are so cheap here compared to oem pads, they work great on the road so far 650 miles only no squeeling etc, i have not pushed them that hard yet...i did take the car to 140 mph the other day , stopped fine..less dust...however i dont know what they'd be like on a drive day..but again ..a high quality brake fluid can help with that too...

johnnie27

January 10th, 2012, 22:24

vitalian

January 11th, 2012, 00:02

Geez, Brav, how frustrating! I think it's astonishing that JHM is blaming everything on the pads, when tons of people use those pads apparently with no issues. I mean, they're ROTORS for crying out loud, not china tea saucers.

That said, thanks for posting this. I was thinking of going EBC the next time I change pads, but I think I'll go with something else...

MaxRS6

January 11th, 2012, 00:19

^Seems to be more and more the case with vendors always pointing the fingers any which way but back at themselves....

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/bst/lowres/bstn384l.jpg

Brav

January 11th, 2012, 00:35

I am just relieved of not having to deal with brake pulsation anymore.. Now to tackle that other vibration.

ben916

January 11th, 2012, 07:25

I think I am going Hawk's this next time, i have that odd bluing on my rotors that Pat and others have...

(I must remember that my RS6 doesn't have ceramics)
(I must remember that my RS6 doesn't have ceramics)
(I must remember that my RS6 doesn't have ceramics)
(I must remember that my RS6 doesn't have ceramics)

hahnmgh63

January 11th, 2012, 07:35

You guys should check out the EBC Yellows though. Check out EBC's website and you will definitely see that the Yellows are more tuned for our type of car. Heavy weights, higher temps than the Reds. They are used in a couple of racing series and I have a set on my Cayenne Turbo S w/380mm front / 356mm rear rotors and I drive it aggressively and they are quite good. I have Reds on my little Audi tt but will definitely swap to the Yellows next time or maybe even before the Reds are used up. The Reds would be fine if it was a standard daily driver but they are not meant for higher performance use for our Type A personalities :)

4everRS

January 11th, 2012, 16:33

I'm using yellows.
You guys should check out the EBC Yellows though. Check out EBC's website and you will definitely see that the Yellows are more tuned for our type of car. Heavy weights, higher temps than the Reds. They are used in a couple of racing series and I have a set on my Cayenne Turbo S w/380mm front / 356mm rear rotors and I drive it aggressively and they are quite good. I have Reds on my little Audi tt but will definitely swap to the Yellows next time or maybe even before the Reds are used up. The Reds would be fine if it was a standard daily driver but they are not meant for higher performance use for our Type A personalities :)

4everRS

January 11th, 2012, 16:34

whats the thickness of that rotor, buy the image it looks to have a big lip on it??

Not much lip. Just looks it due to pad not hitting there.

MaxRS6

January 11th, 2012, 16:53

I am about to swap out the EBC Reds to Hawk Plus Blue for the rear- sitting on the workbench waiting on me to install. I utilize Carbotech Bobcats for street on the front STaSIS BBK.

Gonna (Arkie slang) try the Ferodo 3000 pads (sitting next to the Hawks) for the next track event.

Edit: Ferodo spelling...thx Josh...no comment about the gonna? At least I didn't use "fixin to".

lswing

January 11th, 2012, 17:37

Hawk HPS's have been working well for me, not a lot of grab until warmed up good, but hardly any dust-off and the rotors are looking good. Would like to know how those HPS+'s work out, should have better grab and maybe a bit of noise.

JSRS6

January 11th, 2012, 17:43

Ferodo...

aussie rs6

January 11th, 2012, 18:24

over on the UK RS6 forum, the carbotechXP pads have been getting good reports. http://www.ctbrakes.com/pads.asp
I am trying a set of Ferodo DS2500 i bought from http://store.zeckhausen.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=44_707_708

MaxRS6

January 11th, 2012, 18:32

I've tried the XP10's a couple of times at the track on Carbotech's recommendation. However; globs of brake material just melted off. Their site does say the XP10 should be used on cars less than 2900 lbs. However; the Carbotech rep recommended them so I gave them a shot. Some of their other compounds (XP12, 16, RP2) might hold up better on the track. We'll see how the "Ferodo" pads do next time out on the track.

4everRS

January 11th, 2012, 22:21

MaxRS6

January 11th, 2012, 22:24

^LOL- Kyle

Now dat der is talkin my speak...

ben916

January 11th, 2012, 23:23

^LOL- Kyle

Now dat der is talkin my speak...

I reckin' mosta folks wanna 'port bak on dem clamper padz yer 'ludin ta...

4everRS

January 11th, 2012, 23:47

Ben, have have your frozen rotors been treating you?

ben916

January 12th, 2012, 02:28

Ben, have have your frozen rotors been treating you?

Surprisingly well... I will get a photo if you like?
I don't like the EBC Reds for the lack of initial bite and the fookin' blue crap on the rotors...
I also have the Phaetons on there, not sure how much it helps...

4everRS

January 12th, 2012, 03:17

ben916

January 12th, 2012, 03:26

Good to hear. Did you get the phaetons from Grizz? Wonder if he's still selling them? And how much?

I have been making a list of stuff that I want by spring/summer. Rotors, pads, hotchkis, test pipes, .... I'm sure there will be more.

I sent in an email to ebc stating concerns. I will be sure to report back

HEHEHE, Nope not Grizz..... but GENUINEVWAUDIPARTS!!!

1. Launch ETKA and select VW
2. Find Phaeton
3. Find Dust sheilds R/L and ducts R/L, no need for new bolts, just reuse..
4. Order via Genuine
5. Minor cutting is involved

4everRS

January 12th, 2012, 04:00

Did they change the genuine site?

Ben, I looked them up but the image doesn't look right.

hahnmgh63

January 12th, 2012, 04:17

1) 2x Phaeton backing plates (3d0 615 311C & 3d0 615 312C)
2) 2x Phaeton air ducts (3d0 615 447D & 3d0 615 448D)
3) 4x brake bolts (100 650 02)
4) 8x securing bolts (908 429 03)

I did get my from Grizz and they were already modified, shipped for around $150 at the time. I've dealt with him twice and both times service was very slow but I got a good deal on the parts (Milltek Catless Downpipes also). Others have dealt with him and received their stuff right away so I must have bad timing when I order.

hahnmgh63

January 12th, 2012, 04:31

The Phaeton part #'s don't come up on Geunuine's site but they do on World Impex. Backing plates $56.87 and the ducts are approx $27.16 but it says the ducts are a special order Euro item? Any chance the U.S. W12 Phaetons came with the same backing plates but without the ducts bolted onto them? I'd just E-mail Genuine if your in a hurry or try Grizz (Martin) at Unit 20.

4everRS

January 12th, 2012, 04:40

Thanks Mark. I'm in no hurry. I'll add it to the list.

aussie rs6

January 12th, 2012, 05:59

I was wondering if anyone in US has installed the full C6 brake and caliper kit from Unit 20 and run it on the track.

(you do have to run 19" rims).

I have the C6 full setup with phaeton scoops from Martin and notice a marked improvement on braking on the road at all speeds with associated increase in confidence when do the "whoa Nelly" bit.

ben916

January 12th, 2012, 18:12

Did they change the genuine site?

Ben, I looked them up but the image doesn't look right.

I checked Genuine last night, it was fine.
I just checked it at work, "under construction"!?!?!

lswing

January 12th, 2012, 18:23

Just looked up a part...online again...

http://genuineaudiparts.com/partlocator/index.cfm?siteid=214407

Brav

January 12th, 2012, 18:55

Thanks for bringing up this topic. I will be shopping for front rotors and pads again this spring. Again, not real happy with the EBC offerings. I have yellows in now.

Not sure if I should be blaming EBC, but I've only used them for about 10k miles, but does include one track event.

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab210/crocodile64/Rotordamage.jpg

The more I look at the crap buildup on these rotors, the more scared I get. that a lot of buildup/overtemp, methinks. Would ditch those pads ASAP. EBC reds, and yellows I guess, seem to easily over-temp the rotors. Maybe from uneven pad pressure, developing hot spots? I don't know, not an engineer.. or the low dust compound is way too abrasive and creates too much heat. Regardless..

Who was that genius that got us all started on the Reds?!? :)

So far, my cheapo posi-quiets have been great. I bought them as a temp solution, but will just keep them at this point.

ben916

January 12th, 2012, 18:57

Just looked up a part...online again...

http://genuineaudiparts.com/partlocator/index.cfm?siteid=214407

www.genuinevwaudiparts.com doesn't function
www.genuineaudiparts.com is functional...

1 bad 03 rs6

January 12th, 2012, 20:19

1216612165

Got these at O'Reilly. Made by ATE. The same manufacturer as the rear calipers on our cars.
Limited Lifetime Warranty. Very high qualiy. I have driven them hard and have had zero issues. Well, a little squeal sometimes when they're cold and it's wet out.

http://www.ate.de/generator/www/com/en/ate/ate/general/home/index_en.html

4everRS

January 12th, 2012, 22:25

Haha, those aren't cheap. I remember when I bought the ebc reds front AND rear for 178 bucks shipped.
1216612165

Got these at O'Reilly. Made by ATE. The same manufacturer as the rear calipers on our cars.
Limited Lifetime Warranty. Very high qualiy. I have driven them hard and have had zero issues. Well, a little squeal sometimes when they're cold and it's wet out.

http://www.ate.de/generator/www/com/en/ate/ate/general/home/index_en.html

kday

January 13th, 2012, 01:51

Gonna (Arkie slang) try the Ferodo 3000 pads (sitting next to the Hawks) for the next track event.

Nice... I had a set of those for my UrS4 (w/ 993 turbo brakes) when I used to track it. They are awesome. Like bruise yourself on the harness belts awesome. I only got 2 or maybe 3 events out of a set, and they were $$$, but you gotta pay to play I guess.

I had DS2500s for the street that I liked a lot too, but they don't seem to make economic sense for the RS6.

Brav

January 13th, 2012, 08:51

For cheap, try posi quiet.

arS6

January 15th, 2012, 00:00

Another pic.

http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab210/crocodile64/25e9c71d.jpg

It seems as if the pad material is getting lodged in the holes and then creating these awesome grooves.

Max, I'm gonna look inta em ther fernando pads you ben talkin bout

The grooves you see are consistent with drilled rotors. You can ask any major rotor manufacturer about that. When I first saw it (ages ago), I was like WTF!?!?
I think the way to go is slots. But the drilled ones are so pretty.

arS6

January 15th, 2012, 00:08

Who was that genius that got us all started on the Reds?!? :)

LOL. I recall a member posting that they were going to jack the price up one Reds and there was only one site that still sold them at the lower price. So we all bought some. I bought 2 complete sets (front and rear). Lucky me, my fronts are fine. I did get some vibration under braking so I use some very abrasive "track only" pads to resurface the rotors. TONS of brake dust came off! The vibration was better but not gone. It turns out that my rear pads were toast! There was a rear inner pad that was stuck to the rotor and was completely worn out to the metal. While the outside pad still had about 1/3 left. After it was replaced (rear rotor and pads), no brake vibrations anymore. I'm satisfied with the Reds. However, after using the track only pads (they stop on a dime!!!), I'm going to switch to yellows for some more stopping power.

FYI - The JHM rings are not China knockoffs. They are made by Coleman rotors. I'm currently using 2Bennett 2 piece rotors. I'm not surprise if they are Colemans as well! GOOD LUCK!

Brav

January 15th, 2012, 08:52

LOL. I recall a member posting that they were going to jack the price up one Reds and there was only one site that still sold them at the lower price. So we all bought some. I bought 2 complete sets (front and rear). Lucky me, my fronts are fine. I did get some vibration under braking so I use some very abrasive "track only" pads to resurface the rotors. TONS of brake dust came off! The vibration was better but not gone. It turns out that my rear pads were toast! There was a rear inner pad that was stuck to the rotor and was completely worn out to the metal. While the outside pad still had about 1/3 left. After it was replaced (rear rotor and pads), no brake vibrations anymore. I'm satisfied with the Reds. However, after using the track only pads (they stop on a dime!!!), I'm going to switch to yellows for some more stopping power.

FYI - The JHM rings are not China knockoffs. They are made by Coleman rotors. I'm currently using 2Bennett 2 piece rotors. I'm not surprise if they are Colemans as well! GOOD LUCK!

Well that is reassuring. I was skeptical of JHM quality since the hats and rotors aren't even using the same hardware front vs rear, or same design. rear rings are way too thick relative to pad. And they made the slots going the wrong way with respect to the directional vanes..

I guess it is just a pad issue then, I have heard of EBCs now creating multiple problems, and having pads crumble at the track after 4 hard runs. With red and yellow, but more so red. I for one will never use them again. I have used Ferodo for the Noble for street/track with pretty good success.

4everRS

January 15th, 2012, 13:38

I used the yellows at the track for 6, 25 minute sessions. They worked fine. I'm just concerned with rotor damage. I understand I can't have my cake and eat it too, but I'd like a pad that has low rotor wear, but still great bite. Even if that means they dust a little more.

skribe

January 16th, 2012, 14:27

Did new OEM rotors and Hawk HPS pads, as per the late great V8Weight's advice and couldn't be happier. No dust, no squeal, no grooves, no pulse, no problem.

lswing

January 16th, 2012, 17:19

Did new OEM rotors and Hawk HPS pads, as per the late great V8Weight's advice and couldn't be happier. No dust, no squeal, no grooves, no pulse, no problem.

What he said...maybe a bit less grab than other setups, but great DD and all around...

as350

January 16th, 2012, 17:53

ThrillHouse

January 16th, 2012, 18:56

I recently did OEM rotors all around and EBC yellows. Though I have less than 200 miles on this setup, I am pretty happy so far. A bit more bite than OEM, a bit less dust. Still too early to know about some of the other complaints.

I already have the EBC yellows waiting for me to put in. Just bought them during the ECS sale before Christmas for $226 + shipping (full set) Sometime this summer I should be needing to do them (going to use OEM rotors too) but they are in decent shape now.

Brav

February 3rd, 2012, 03:05

I fixed a few more things at Raven MS - new front drive shafts, tie rods and shock mount that went bad. Big improvement on vibration but not gone. So today I removed my spacers, as it looked liked the hub rings in the Rotiforms were beveled too much and not sitting flush on the hub. Also, in the rear I had cone shaped lug bolts instead of ball shaped.. fronts were correct. Strange. So out the spacers came, and after 1 hour of searching for shorter bolts that fit (shorter). Test drive shows big improvement yet in vibration, nearly gone. Maybe to a point that is as good as possible.. but i would say a 95% improvement from where I started. We shall call it a win for now.

What was strange was my rear passenger side spacer.. it was pitted, as was the hat of the rotor... but from what?? take a look. Threw in a pic of driver rear for comparison.

skribe

February 3rd, 2012, 03:40

Galvanic corrosion, happens sometimes when dissimilar metals are in contact... it's why you don't plumb copper pipes to iron.

A nice coat of grease on each surface would likely have stopped it. Or you could blast each surface with a couple coats of spray paint. Or make a gasket.

Who makes your spacers? Do they contain any recycled chinese tuna cans in the alloy? If spacers and wheels are of relatively similar aluminum alloy, you wouldn't see this...

kevin

February 3rd, 2012, 03:45

That's strange looking stuff.. If you lived in the snow belt I just say it's road salt corrosion. Your car spend a lot of time next to coast?

Brav

February 3rd, 2012, 03:48

Not be what you described. The pitting is between the aluminum h&r spacer and the aluminum rotor hat. Not the wheel.

Brav

February 3rd, 2012, 03:50

That's strange looking stuff.. If you lived in the snow belt I just say it's road salt corrosion. Your car spend a lot of time next to coast?

No snow. And only one of four corners. Maybe loose? Debris sandwiched in?

skribe

February 3rd, 2012, 04:14

Right, not the wheel, the hat. Still saying galvanic corrosion, can be accelerated by contaminants (salts and whatnot.)
Can't imagine any other way this could happen when everything is bolted securely together.

ben916

February 3rd, 2012, 06:23

Chris, how flat are the spacers and how flat are the hubs?
It almost looks like there is unusual contact, meaning high points, on the either the hub or the spacer or both...

Brav

February 3rd, 2012, 18:37

The spacers are H&R 5mm, design you can see in the photos. The JHM rotors don't sit exactly "flush" with the flared backing of the center bore of the hub. I don't know if this is a problem or not since once bolted down it should all be flat. They were brand new spacers, and i took a wire brush to the hubs a long time ago, so should have been flat.

hahnmgh63

February 3rd, 2012, 18:50

I have always smeared a fine coating of Anit-seize on the backs of my rims or spacers to keep from that happening.

skribe

February 4th, 2012, 00:37

Who knows, the wire brush could have left steel fragments that caused a galvanic condition?

What hahn said, I coat surfaces with a thin layer of synthetic grease when I mount my wheels... Started doing that years ago when a hub-centric ring fused onto the hub and prevented me from changing a flat on the side of the road on my '85 gti...

Brav

February 15th, 2012, 19:41

Another update since my last visit to Raven. (at this point they have installed new front Axles, one Raxle I had and one OEM for the passenger front, as well as new tie rods, and did an alignment).

In an attempt to finally put my vibration issue to rest, we swapped the front rotors and all wheels from Ravens shop RS6 (thanks guys!!). They really suspected the JHMs due to past issues with other cars with them. Although there was a SLIGHT decrease in vibration (which is somewhat intermittent, so hard to say if it really changed), it could have been due to the fact I was rolling on skinny 18s and not my fatty 19s. We didnt have a spare set of rear rotors to test.. So the end verdict: NOT the rotors.. at least fronts.

So then we put the car on the rack, got Riccardo in the driver seat and put her in gear to inspect all the rolling bits in motion, while under the car. My driver front wheel had the most noticeable vibration. Swapped wheels and noticed the same. We even ran them with just the rotors, which didnt work very well. The things we noticed: driver side front drive shaft (from RAXLES) had some visible woble to the axle at speed. It was slight, but maybe enough to transfer to the chassis. The trans coupling and the coupling at the hub appeared to be rotating smoothly. The drive shaft in the center appeared to be OK, but personally I noticed a very very slight wobble/vibration. Raven said it was OK. One rear wheel had a slight bend, but in looking at the rotation it did not appear out of round, and no vibration.

A few months back, I had replaced the passenger lower rear inside control arm bushing, because it had slid apart somehow.. this was only after 9 months from when I installed the entire control arm kit from 034 Motorsport. Maybe I didnt get the heavy duty one? see attached pic. Anyway, we went to replace it, and the new bushing would not fit, it was 1mm off in size... strange? so I had to replace the whole control arm (passenger side) with OEM so I could go home that day.. the driver side I left alone. But maybe this side is about to blow up as well? is there a REAL difference that could cause my vibration issue due to different bushings?

I really have replaced EVERYTHING so far, except for center drive shaft/carrier bearing, and wheel bearings (which dont evidence any issue so far).