Best Oil to Use in the RS6 part 2

[PixieVC]

Hi everyone - I happened across a curious PDF file on the internets this evening - which should put to rest any speculation on what oils are approved for which specification.

The document I found is an Audi TSB dated July 2005. The subject matter? It's essentially a long list detailing which commercial oil brands, product line, and weight conform to the VW 502.00 standard - which is the successor standard to the 501.01 oil specification that our RS6 engines require...

I figured this might be a useful bit of information!

:rs6kiss:

Audi Oil Specification Chart TSB (http://www.box.com/s/5hg07movo760qdihqp1h)

[SzymekCRX]

Currently I'm running Castrol 10W-40 - half-synt. That's what I got when I bought it, 80k miles ish. Running OK :)

Is there really a way of feeleng the difference between the manufacturers ? It's not like octane rating when You sometimes 'feel' more power.

[JSRS6]

I thought our spec was 505.01...

[kilian tuning]

I thought our spec was 505.01...

Thats what i was thinking too, yes, it needs 50501...
I should go for full synthetic 5w40.

[PixieVC]

505.01 is a heavy turbodiesel grade oil. Now I was ready to swear up and down that I had seen a specification in the manual stated - however, unfortunately the only manual page I've been able to find is this one:

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/9507/rs6oilpage.jpg

Now - it states the following requirements for oil: API Service SJ/CF rating and ACEA A3, B3, B4 ratings...

We're going to engage in some fuzzy logic here at this point. The oil I ended up putting into the car, Kendall full synthetic GT-I oil - and a link to the specification sheet: Kendall GT-1 specification page (http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/documents/conoco/industrial_oils/Ken%20GT-1%20Full%20Synthetic%20Euro%20MO%20TDS%20Web.pdf)

The specifications for the oil are as follows:


GT-1 Full Synthetic Motor Oil, SAE 5W-40, meets or exceeds the
requirements of:
• API Service SM, CF
• ACEA A3/B3-04, A3/B4-04
GT-1 Full Synthetic Motor Oil, SAE 5W-40, is fully approved for
service fill under the following OEM specifications:
• BMW Longlife-01 Oil
• Mercedes-Benz Sheet 229.5
• Porsche A40 (excludes Cayenne V6 for extended drain &
Cayenne diesel)
• VW Standard 505.00, 502.00

OK, so - with that in mind, what the heck is the API Service SM/CF, and what makes it different? Well, we can just refer to the following reference guide from the American Petroleum Institute (API) (http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/MOTOR_OIL_GUIDE_2010_120210.pdf) which says:


CATEGORY STATUS SERVICE
SN CURRENT Introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to provide improved high temperature
deposit protection for pistons, more stringent sludge control, and seal compatibility. API SN with Resource
Conserving matches ILSAC GF-5 by combining API SN performance with improved fuel economy, turbocharger
protection, emission control system compatibility, and protection of engines operating on ethanol-containing
fuels up to E85.
SM CURRENT For 2010 and older automotive engines.
SL CURRENT For 2004 and older automotive engines.
SJ CURRENT For 2001 and older automotive engines.

One can draw the conclusion that all it takes to be VW 502 and 505 certified is to meet the API Service SJ/CF rating, and the ACEA A3, B3, B4 ratings - as this is what was originally specified for our vehicles by Audi...

Suggestions, comments, wishes we can put the worms back in the can? And a digression - this is what happens when I get bored, have insomnia, and have just finished debugging a million lines of code... its either brilliant or a waste of time.

[hahnmgh63]

The oil specification came as a supplement to the owners manual, and add on page that may have been lost over the years by most owners.

[Hy Octane]

During the original factory warranty period for our beasts when new, Audi realized that putting the wrong oil in this motor might cause some problems they were going to have to repair under warranty. So, they sent out a page in the manual that specifies you must use 505.01 and nothing else or your warranty would be voided. Basically, they were saying that if you have a motor problem, the first thing they would do is take an oil sample and have it analysed, If there was anything funky in the oil sample you would foot the bill..
Of course, since this time we know other oils will work but it was just them guarding their 'bumplattzes' .. having said that, I have always used the 505.01 Castrol until the last change when I switched to something even better. Quantum Blue. Its amazing that you can feel/ hear the difference this amazing oil makes.

[Brav]

Can you elaborate on the differences?

[hahnmgh63]

http://my-gti.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/volkswagen_technical_bulletin17-08-01engine_oils.pdf

And here is a great expanation of the VAG oil standards and one of the reasons I went with Redline as they have one of the highest HTHS (High Temp/High Shear) ratings in the industry. As I've said before, in the states, only Mobil 1 0W-40 meats Audi's standard, and only by a fraction as it has a HTHS of 3.6 (VAG minimum is 3.6), Redline 5W-40 is 4.5 or 4.6.

http://mysite.verizon.net/b5crazy/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/vw-audi_oil_spec_article.pdf

[mdegracia]

^ I have 8 quarts of redline 5w40 and a hengst waiting for me at the shop today!

[Brav]

Just tried Lubro-Moly 5w 40 yesterday.. local shop carreid it and I wanted to see if it makes a difference with my valve angel adjuster noise. Was using BND before.

[Brazil]

I had more noise with the Lubro-moly than the Pentosin with respect to valve noise immediately on startup

[cruzanrs6]

Amsoil makes a 5W-40, European blend that is certified to the 505.01 standard. I have used Oil Analyzers in the past to analyze the oil on my 2.7 T - it showed that at around 7 K mi the TBN (total base index) was out of spec, - thus the need to change oil at 5 K mi. I have not analyzed the oil on the RS6 yet - but will pull a sample at 5 K (when I change) and post the findings.

[papadoc]

Go with Quantum Blue from BND Automotive. Most oil out there now has cut down on additives that prolong cylinder/engine life but could impact the catalytic converters. Oil analysis after 8K miles with Quantum Blue in the engine attached in this prior post http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/20086-BND-Automotive-oils-fuel-additives-coolant-ect?p=220140&highlight=#post220140
The TBN was minimal at 8k miles, but the high phosphorus content is the key. ACES IV and Quantum Blue, running 100 octane tune now at 115K miles and running smooth as ever...

[vr430]

http://my-gti.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/volkswagen_technical_bulletin17-08-01engine_oils.pdf

http://mysite.verizon.net/b5crazy/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/vw-audi_oil_spec_article.pdf

Very interesting info. I deal with viscosity measurements on a daily basis and in my world, comparing 2.7cP material and 3.6cP is akin to comparing viscosity fo water from two different bottles from the same case. It is mindboggling that such a minute difference can play such a huge role. Please note, I am not disputing this, because Audi had staked its 8 year warranty on 1.8T engines based on this data - money/mouth deal.

What a scientist in me would like to know, if anyone can point me to a data source that compares viscosities of different motor oils, so I can pour over the data to educate myself better. I know Bing is my friend, but if anyone has a link handy, it would save time. Thanks!

[cruzanrs6]

Just to clarify, I have used Amsoil products (synthetic) on all my vehicles. When I owned a 2001 A6, 2.7T I ran the 5w-30 blend. I had the oil analyzed by Oil Analyzers sample the oil at 5 K mi and approx. 10 K mi. The TBN # was in spec at 5k, but out at 10 K. I decided to change the oil consistently at 5 K. I am now runing the 5w-40 European blend. I will sample it at 5 K mi and let you know what the results are. Probably 2 months away.

[audiprotn]

Bump,
Do you guys use BND's oil filter as well?

[Dmb408]

When my indy shop did mine two weeks ago, they said they check the specs with Audi constantly (before any change) because they are upgraded a lot more frequently than this thread leads one to believe. The tech in fact said ours was updated relatively recently because I think Audi was looking at historic gasket wear or something (going off memory here though). They were adamant about only 5w-40 weight though, that much I remember. My shop uses only Total and would probably never put an aftermarket filter unless I begged them. Audiprotn, need a recommendation? I'm in Chi.

[audiprotn]

Dmb408,I just recently discovered bnd oil in one of the threads and decided to give it a try. Then started reading about filters and seems like some people had problems fitting anything but oem. Where in Chi are you?

[Dmb408]

i live in the loop

[JSRS6]

I've never had a problem fitting the filter Brian sent with the oil.

[audiprotn]

Dmb408, northwest suburbs here

jsrs6, placed an order with Brian, very informative guy I got to say :)

[AndrewNC]

Amsoil now offers multiple SAPS (sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur) formulations for their European car oils. The AFLQT Mid-SAPS is the correct formula to match the VW 505.01 spec for the RS6. Full disclosure: I only ran Motul Spec 505.01 in my RS6, but I've always used Amsoil in my other Audi products.

[RSSIK]

I use Rotella T6 synthetic 5w40 in my RS6 and both my B5 S4's. Never hear any noises from it and am very happy with it overall. No changes in performance as some swear they may be.

[kday]

I bought the Castrol Turbo-Diesel oil that Audi specifies from a local dealer. It wasn't substantially more expensive than e.g. Mobil 1. I don't see any reason to deviate from the factory recommended oil.

[mik15]

i am using Liqui-Moly, Top Tec 4100 5w-40, which has the VW norm approval 505.01! I am using this since i bought the car, about 25k miles ago and even though it's a longlife service oil, i change it every 6k miles. Tried once Mobil 1, 0w-40, didn't like it a bit, drained it after 1.5k miles and didn't look too good plus the engine was noisier with that one! If i had an option to buy the original one, i would, but the stealer here is asking for $20/Liter and i don't wanna be robbed this way, is not the money but the principle, they're asking at least double of what most of the dealers in other countries do!

I find the LM very good and comparing the TB between this and the original Castrol, the LM is at least as good!

[G2]

Might as well keep this rolling, since things change with time. Amsoil earlier this year came out with a new upgraded 5-40 Euro oil (EFM). Not only is it more robust, including higher additive levels, but is significantly cheaper than the original 5-40 Euro oil (AFL).

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/european/ (show's all Euro oils, but many others cross over...)

My RS6 was on a Liqui Moly 5-40 diet, before switching to the "old" 5-40 euro oil (AFL), which by visible assesement held up about the same. I took an UOA with the Liqui Moly, but haven't sent it in yet.

Anyway, the new EFM 5-40 Euro seems to be holding up a bit better (better color; no consumption). It has lower burn off and higher TBN. Another 1-2K miles will tell more. I like that fact of using higher additive oil to help reduce start up engine wear, and less so trying to protect the emission system with a OE spec oil- esp. for older out of warranty cars.

Generally speaking, we find the non OE spec oils hold up the best, IF carefully chosen. It's hard to protect the engine with such low additives mandated by most OE spec lubes.
,
For those using Castrol products, hate to say it but it's the only lube we've seen engine problems with- including my personal car years ago. Ever since the Gulf fiasco, we've boycotted all BP products. Guess I have a Green Thumb, another reason I like Amsoil: relatively small company, no ships or oil rigs dumping crude oil into our oceans....

Anyway, so far I'm very happy with the new 5-40 oil (previously mainly used 10-40 XL for older Euro cars). We use A LOT of Amsoil at the shop in just about everything you can imagine. Simply amazing how well it holds up, even in old and tired vehicles.

[G2]

Amsoil EFM specs:
<tbody>
YPICAL TECHNICAL PROPERTIES
European Car Formula 5W-40 Synthetic Motor Oil (EFM)


Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D 445)
13.6


Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D 445)
83.3


Viscosity Index (ASTM D 2270)
168


CCS Viscosity, cP @ °C (ASTM D 5293)
5433 (-30)


Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 97)
-39 (-38)


Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92)
220 (428)


Fire Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92)
238 (460)


Noack Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (ASTM D 5800)
8.7


Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D 4172B @ 40 kg, 75°C, 1200 rpm, 1 hr), Scar, mm
0.47


Total Base Number
10.1


High-Temperature/High-Shear Viscosity
150°C, 1.4 x 1.0 x 106 s-1, cP (ASTM D 5481)

3.7

</tbody>

AFL specs:

<tbody>
TYPICAL TECHNICAL PROPERTIES
European Car Formula 5W-40 Mid-SAPS Synthetic Motor Oil (AFL)



Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D 445)

14.3


Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D 445)

88.5


Viscosity Index (ASTM D 2270)

168


Viscosity CCS, cP @ °C (ASTM D 5293)

5855 (-30)


Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92)

224 (433)


Fire Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92)

240 (428)


Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 97)

-40 (-40)


NOACK Volatility, % weight loss (g/100g) (ASTM D 5800)

10.0


Four-Ball Wear Test (ASTM D 4172B @ 40 kg, 75°C, 1200 rpm, 1hr), Scar, mm.

0.44


Total Base Number

8.0


HT/HS (cP) (ASTM D 5481)

3.8

</tbody>


Anyone have specs on the oil they like?

[G2]

Shameless plug here, but it's for the greater good of the community:

You can buy Amsoil products at wholesale (retail is still more than fair) thru my website. www.oiloregon.com

There's numerous warehouses across the US and ships from the closest one.

Don't forget those driveline fluids and filters, too. The RS6 eats gear and trans oil for breakfast!

[hahnmgh63]

HTHS (High Temp High Shear) of 3.8 for the Amsoil 5w-40. Redline 5w-40 is rated at 4.6 HTHS. The Amsoil only rates slightly better than Mobil1 0w-40 at 3.6, I'll stick with the Redline for about the same price as the Amsoil.

[mik15]

G2 let us know the results of the analysis of the Liqui Moly, i want to send a sample to the lab next time i do the service!

[G2]

HTHS (High Temp High Shear) of 3.8 for the Amsoil 5w-40. Redline 5w-40 is rated at 4.6 HTHS. The Amsoil only rates slightly better than Mobil1 0w-40 at 3.6, I'll stick with the Redline for about the same price as the Amsoil.

Amsoil is $5.40 p/qt. How much are you getting Redline for?

I wonder how HTHS translates into practical reality, in terms of protection? I know the full SAPS 5-40 has MUCH higher additives than any of those oils (Any that are SN/SM or OE spec rated). HTHS might be great for the track, but nearly all engine wear occurs at start-up; these cars typically don't cook the oil in terms of sump temps.

To me the TBN, VI and NOACK are key performance specs.

There's lot of good oil out there (I was a devote Redline user from the late 80's), but Amsoil seems to better hold their own when factoring in all important specs, including price.

[G2]

I want to get this done soon for sure. Amsoil provides the UOA kits for cheap (see my website). They recently bought the UOA company: Oil Analyzers, that contracted with Amsoil for years.

We did a UOA on a Porsche 968 last year- very helpful info. Oil Analyzers was very nice and walked me thru the values and meanings.

Took samples of all the OE driveline fluids, before switching everything to Amsoil Severe Gear. Should be scary....

[G2]

G2 let us know the results of the analysis of the Liqui Moly, i want to send a sample to the lab next time i do the service!

See response below, oops.