Torque Converter Story (kinda long)

[Beastly]

Yes, i have endlessly read here about TC fails so I was not shocked. But some how always thinking (hoping), that happens to the "other guys" the ones who are thrashing the tranny with duck foot rat launches, top gear-like power-slides, and general hooliganism. With multiple track days and rocket rides down most on-ramps, I am no angel and sure enough, the TC CEL came to roost. I mean really, this is like death and taxes, its going to hit us all at some point. Hit with that realization, off to the dealership for the bill. The happy ending to this story comes in the form of the Fidelity Platinum Warranty, the adjuster approved the fix, additionally I had them do the timing belt and sundry bits while the lump is out, and we are on the way, or so I thought... I get a call from the dealer "Mr Beastly its all back together but we hear this very strange grinding noise..." After conferring with HQ they determine that the TC is bad and they need to do it all over! To top it off they run a long screw thru a short nut and put a hole in my fender requiring a fix and new paint. As bad as that all sounds, In all I was very well taken care of by the dealer, they were in good communication and made everything right. Also I got to use that $500 promo card (I am sure we all got one) for 15% off parts and 15% off labor applied to the belt job. The TC cost me a $100 deductible + consumables -> priceless. With 36K on the clock, a new TC, new lifetime trans fluid (haha), new TB, new oil, coolant, alignment, a very shinny left fender, power steering fluid, a few more years and 40K on the warranty to go, and other bits, the car is like new and I am loving it.

Also did the Sporteck mod on the belly pan as I had three weeks of RS6 down time, can not yield data to the cooling power but I am sure I saw some frost forming on the block after a good run :)

[PALETTE]

Happy ending to say the least! glad it worked out and your off and driving,, enjoy

[nene]

My TC also failed around 38K and was replaced. I did not notice it failed, except for the CEL, which dealer confirmed TC needed replacement.
I don't over extend the beast with power launching and the like, so it was quite a surprise to me as well.
So far no more worries, and hope to keep it that way.

Glad to hear all is back and well with your beast.

[Elevens]

Didn't end so well for me. My TC and valve body was just replaced about a month ago. All seemed fine until a few days ago when i decided to nail it while in 2nd she revved to 6500RPM with very little increase in acceleration and then banged into 3rd. What the hell is this I'm saying to myself. Floored it again, same thing. Checked for codes, none. Bought it back to the shop, only for them to determine that the Clutches are slipping. Damn Damn Damn. I knew I should have had the Box rebuilt when it was out, but didn't listen to myself. The Warranty company covered the last time, will they cover it this time, I don't know. What ever happens, I am sending it to either IPT or Leve10 for a complete Performance Rebuild. Does anyone have an opinion on either one? Let me know. These cars are fantastic, but the Tranny is Trash..........................

[hahnmgh63]

I know most people, even S4 guys are now staying away from Level 10. A few guys have had problems with IPT but better luck than level 10. Check out http://www.517trans.com/ The S4 guys making lots of power swear buy him. And of course there is Tozo on this list that people swear buy too.

[Carbonman]

11375

01E :hahahehe:

[Elevens]

I know most people, even S4 guys are now staying away from Level 10. A few guys have had problems with IPT but better luck than level 10. Check out http://www.517trans.com/ The S4 guys making lots of power swear buy him. And of course there is Tozo on this list that people swear buy too.


Thanks Hahnmgh63. I just gave the boys over at 517trans a call. They sound pretty impressive. I will definitely consider them. I will also see what Tozo has to say. Please everyone learn from my experience, if the Tranny is out REBUILD IT. And maybe you won't have to go through the same grief and expense as I am going to have to go through now.................

[Aronis]

Wow that was a low mileage TC failure!

I stumbled on a TC code with routine Vag-com scan. Mine was not locking but the CEL did not come on.
I had 102,000 miles at that time! I was lucky. TC replaced on warrantee. Going strong at 114,000 miles!

Mike

[speedtrapped]

Elevens, I can attest for a short period of time owning a custom level 10 tranny and TQ. It came with the wreck I bought. I beat on it a couple of times, no issues so far, not cheap...the version in mine was built to handle 800chp, $9k. But I have read some bad issues on audizine. 517 is one of the other partners or head mechanics that left level10, my mechanic likes level 10. Tough call, but he'll I have heard nothing but good things about 517

[Elevens]

Elevens, I can attest for a short period of time owning a custom level 10 tranny and TQ. It came with the wreck I bought. I beat on it a couple of times, no issues so far, not cheap...the version in mine was built to handle 800chp, $9k. But I have read some bad issues on audizine. 517 is one of the other partners or head mechanics that left level10, my mechanic likes level 10. Tough call, but he'll I have heard nothing but good things about 517


Thanks for the Feedback Speedtrapped. Yes some of the feedback on Level 10 is not good. So I will probably stay away from them. And yes all the feedback on 517 is good. Spoke to Sam at 517 and was very convincing. Problem is, all these Audi Tranny re builders ( 517, Level 10 ,IPT) are located in New Jersey. Over a thousand miles from me. And my guy down hear only knows to remove the Box by by removing the engine and then I would have to Crate and ship it. Where as those guys know how to do it without removing the engine, much more desirable to me. The less you take my car apart, the better. So I am thinking about driving it up there, leaving it and let them do the work. He quoted me a 2 week turnaround time, which seems like a rather long time. But if the job is to be done properly I guess you have to wait. We'll see. I'll keep you all Informed..................

[Carbonman]

You should talk with TozoM8. He can do the drop, rebuild of tranny and TC in about a week for a very reasonable amount.

I'm not quite sure how 517 or Level 10 claim to double the strength of the transmission. I can see tougher clutches and some other items that may give a marginal gain - but double? I don't buy it, unless they're replacing all the internals with custom fabricated specialty components, which I don't think is the case.

Talk with TozoM8, he specializes in ZF transmissions and has a lot of good information that's worth listening to.

[716YETI]

My car is not shifting properly and is "slipping" now that the engine is producing more powa. I am starting to think I should have just made a big pile of cash and burned it. :(

[Elevens]

My car is not shifting properly and is "slipping" now that the engine is producing more powa. I am starting to think I should have just made a big pile of cash and burned it. :(


Yea it gets a little discouraging Yeti. These cars are fantastic when they run right. And the Tranny is definitely the weak spot. Get that sorted out with a complete rebuild and you should be happy. I am in the process of doing that now. My Warranty company has indicated they may cover me again If I can provide proof on internal damage. Very encouraging since they just covered me for a TC and Valve body install. Any way don't let it get you down. Its just the price you pay for driving a super car.

[716YETI]

When you say "complete" rebuild is that $9000.00 mentioned in post #9? That seems insane and it better be f**king bullet proof after that kind of money! When I talked to level10 about valve body work they wouldn't give me a price but they did say about $3000-$4000.
I do have an aftermarket TC but it is slipping, is that because of the valve bodies or is it shot? It slips when into the boost and sometimes it slams into gear or falls out of gear, etc. It seems kind of random really.

[ttboost]

If it's slipping...stop driving it. I will only make it worse and possibly hurt something else...As far as the RS6 tranny goes, I have never heard of a rebuild OTHER than with all stock parts. AND if you rebuild something with all stock parts, how can it handle more than stock power? Just an observation...

You really have to love these cars to deal with this tranny crap. Either love them or hate them...

[716YETI]

Stopping driving it shouldn't be a big deal seeing as how I have owned it for 2 months and have driven it about a hundred miles... Writing For Sale thread. (joking... sort of.)

[Elevens]

When you say "complete" rebuild is that $9000.00 mentioned in post #9? That seems insane and it better be f**king bullet proof after that kind of money! When I talked to level10 about valve body work they wouldn't give me a price but they did say about $3000-$4000.
I do have an aftermarket TC but it is slipping, is that because of the valve bodies or is it shot? It slips when into the boost and sometimes it slams into gear or falls out of gear, etc. It seems kind of random really.

I would say a complete rebuild is in the $4000-5000 range. Not certain since I have not done it yet. But $9000 seems rather extreme and I would never go that high. Mine slips but only under WOT. Drive it normally and she shifts normally. Going back to the shop on Tuesday and we'll see from there....

[speedtrapped]

As far as I know, the level 10 i have read about, again, I have seen PO receipt, the rebuild is extra clutch packs, hardened output shaft, plus a modified TC, valve body. Not worth 9k, hmm I wouldn't of, I would of done a conversion, but I paid very little with 4k miles on it, and I have started to do hard launches, and in 3 weeks the car is going to airstrip, I will be putting tranny to test.

[ben916]

.. and in 3 weeks the car is going to airstrip, I will be putting tranny to test.

um, I am clearly NOT asking for any type of Tranny video but with that stated, please video these exclusive airstrip runs.... or it didn't happen... right Randy?

[speedtrapped]

Hmmm, I thought my race logic box would prove it? I will see about buying a vid

[mmaturo]

I just want to modify my sig to 'i told you so'. By the way with all for four transmissions and TCs in my car it killed both not just the TC. The TC when slipping tears up the transmission. It will fail at anytime regardless of abuse as my last one was babied and still went. Mine each lasted about 15K. Original in the car to 27K. I have friend's whose went at 13K from new. I had a 5th TC but it failed in weeks with a bad install like one of the posts above and it took out the trans with it the second time.

I'm not convinced anybody has had any better luck over the years than just getting the stock tranny rebuilt as economically as possible (tozo) and pray it holds as some do just fine... dealer will simply swap yours out for a $6K rebuilt ZF unit from Germany so a big expensive job there if not under warranty.

The first post on this thread cracks me up as i got the same free front fender paint job as they forgot to take a screw out of the bumper so when putting it back on it was just scratching the hell out of the side the tech was not working on to get it back on.

[716YETI]

So let me get this straight, even after I pay thousands of dollars the thing is destined to fail shortly after. Nice.

[skribe]

So let me get this straight, even after I pay thousands of dollars the thing is destined to fail shortly after. Nice.

Not necessarily. Some owners have made 100k on the original. Mark is an extreme example. It may be related to the fact that his car was a very early build and seemed to make more power than advertised. It also may be related to the fact that his right foot weighs 30+ lbs. I've seen it in person.

But it's a fair assumption that most RS 6's will have at least one TC replacement. Make sure you at least get the updated design, if not an improved design.

There is a flaw in the design of the TC... A seal gives way and creates a chain of failure that ends in everything being toast. This is not just an RS 6 problem. It happens a lot to other Audi platforms, too. So hating on your particular car is misdirected. Hate on Audi and ZF for pawning off a flawed design on its customers for years. How they have escaped a recall, I really don't know. Read this that I found on the googler... well stated AFAIK:


Here's the nuts and bolts technical explanation of the root causes: ZF and Audi's original converter design utilized two rubber seals inside of the torque converter that were of questionable quality.

The two seals are responsible for sealing the hydraulic pressure that allows the torque converter clutch to engage and hold. One of the seals is a "lip" type that seals on the transmission input shaft and the other "o" ring type seal seals against the piston.

The material originally used was not up to the task when it came to dealing with the tremendous heat and pressure that occurs inside of a torque converter. Although Audi did release a second design input shaft lip seal, failures have been observed with those as well.

When the hydraulic pressure that is required to allow converter clutch application cannot be contained because of the faulty seals, the clutch will start to slip and usually destroy itself before too long.

When looking for a replacement converter to purchase from a remanufacturer, it is often helpful to ask them a few questions about their rebuilding procedures.

First off, you will want to find out if they are installing the latest design level seals as part of their torque converter rebuild- using original type seals will work for a while but will eventually lead to another premature failure. There now aftermarket replacements for these components that seem to be far superior to the factory parts.

Secondly, you will surely want to ask if the clutch itself is getting replaced. Believe it or not, this is not a given with some suppliers. The clutches in these particular units are of a multi-disk configuration. Replacing this entire multi disk set up is quite labor intensive and requires not only special tools but also a high level of skill- make sure your converter rebuilding company has both!

Naturally you will also want your rebuilder to replace any other components that normally wear out such as washers, bearings, one way clutches, and spline inserts. Most of the quality converter manufacturers will also pressure test and dynamically balance the unit once it is in the final stage of the rebuilding process.

Taking the time to find out that the job is getting done correctly is absolutely critical. As with any type of rebuilt or remanufactured automotive component, there can be varying levels of quality. With over 11 hours of labor involved in removing and reinstalling your A4 or A6's ZF5HP19 FLA transmission to replace the converter, it is surely a job that you will not want to do or have done more than once.

[716YETI]

You would think you could assume anyone rebuilding would use the latest and the best but, we know that is not a reality I guess. My TC was replaced with an IPT BUT the valve bodies were not reworked which seems insane but, oh well.

[mmaturo]

I'm extreme but what other car do we know of that has this high of a failure rate. I hear less of UK or European failures so I think our US Oldsmobile TCU tunning has a lot to do with it. I never did the MTM programming of the TCU but i wish i had before it went off warranty. Even one in the life of a car is too many in the low(er) mileage . My foot is heavy but it is an RS6. Gotta drive the sucker. But i really did take it easy on the last one. The post Skribe quotes above is dead on with the seals. It is why my car left the building as the last time it was on the lift my mechanic told me I had signs of leaking (and was starting a slight slip and clunking into first every long while). I now wish we had gone after the tranny rather than the DRC with the complaints to the gov as I had even more back-up for the tranny than just my two sets of the entire DRC system. Oh well

[JSRS6]

I'm extreme but what other car do we know of that has this high of a failure rate. I hear less of UK or European failures so I think our US Oldsmobile TCU tunning has a lot to do with it. I never did the MTM programming of the TCU but i wish i had before it went off warranty. Even one in the life of a car is too many in the low(er) mileage . My foot is heavy but it is an RS6. Gotta drive the sucker. But i really did take it easy on the last one. The post Skribe quotes above is dead on with the seals. It is why my car left the building as the last time it was on the lift my mechanic told me I had signs of leaking (and was starting a slight slip and clunking into first every long while). I now wish we had gone after the tranny rather than the DRC with the complaints to the gov as I had even more back-up for the tranny than just my two sets of the entire DRC system. Oh well

It's not too late...:hihi:

[Mikk23]

I'm having a similar problem where my car can't seem to hold second gear...it will slip straight back to red line and sometimes "catch" or slam back into gear and just about knock your fillings out. I'm curious how my aftermarket warranty company will take to the idea of a rebuild by a company like 517 vs a stock job by the dealer. I could make the drive to 517...it would be painful but if the warranty was picking up the bill...might be worth the effort. Anyone had any experience getting a performance rebuild under warranty vs a dealer ship job? Seems like from a ticket price point of view...it would cost them about the same either way...if not a little less for the rebuild.

[Elevens]

I'm going through that exact process now. My warranty company just covered me for a TC and Valve body just about a month ago. As stated above its started to slip badly. I just dropped it of today for another transmission removal. This time their (USP MotorSport) sending it to 517trans at my request. My warranty company said they may cover it again If we can provide proof of Internal damage. How I will do that I don't know at this time. The only way I can see this happening is if they send an agent to 517 to physically inspect the Transmission. This is still a work in progress and I will let you know how this pans out. If It doesn't work out I will be out a lot of money. But If the Box never has to come out again It will be worth it......................

[4everRS]

Elevens, looking back on you situation, can you think of any signs this could of happened. i.e. Was there any significant noises or total loss of gear before the tc was shipped off.

I will be replaceing my tc soon and I don't like the sounds of your horror story. My tranny is still shifting fine minus the cel.

[Elevens]

Elevens, looking back on you situation, can you think of any signs this could of happened. i.e. Was there any significant noises or total loss of gear before the tc was shipped off.
I will be replaceing my tc soon and I don't like the sounds of your horror story. My tranny is still shifting fine minus the cel.

Believe it or not there was no issues with the Tranny initially, only the Dreaded CEL (17125). Tranny was shifting fine. But because of the CEL I decided to Replace the TC and the Valve Body. After I got it back is when I noticed some kind of slipping from 2nd to 3rd. At first they thought it might work itself out, but it got progressively worse. After checking the Fluid levels and fault codes(none) they concluded the Clutches are slipping. If yours is shifting OK then you may be OK with just a TC replacement. But as I said before I would advise anyone with the Box out to go ahead and get a Bullet Proof Rebuild( If there is such a thing) Because its just to expensive to be removing and replacing these Damn things. Of course this is a much more expensive rout to follow. But I think in the long run you will be happier and have a better piece of mind. A Zero failure rate is obviously impossible to guaranty but a strengthened rebuild will surely lengthen the life of the Tranny. My max goals are about 530hp and no more than 600ft lbs of torque at the wheels. And hopefully a Strengthened rebuild will be able to handle this. Ultimately it boils down to how much money you have to spend. My back is against the wall right now, I have to spend the money now and worry about paying it back later..................

[ttboost]

Hmmm... I thought I had read here somewhere that most cars will eventually get the dreaded 17125 code, especially if they have an original Audi TC. If you have the 17125 code, you need a new TC, period. If you have the code only, your tranny is slipping a little. If you have the code and the CEL comes on, STOP DRIVING IT, this is sign, it's starting to slip a lot, thats why it checked a light!!!!!

[Hotshu]

What's the rough cost to fit a 6 speed manual transmission in place of the automatic?

[V8weight]

What's the rough cost to fit a 6 speed manual transmission in place of the automatic?
It's hard to nail down an exact dollar amount.....no one has actually ever finished one....

[TozoM8]

What's the rough cost to fit a 6 speed manual transmission in place of the automatic?

If you have to pay someone to do it then ~$10K.

[ben916]

It's hard to nail down an exact dollar amount.....no one has actually ever finished one....

The ECU is the tough part...

[Carbonman]

What's the rough cost to fit a 6 speed manual transmission in place of the automatic?

Labor - 30ish hours if you know what's going on.
Parts (including ECU software from EPL) $6-8K

So basically what TozoM8 said.

[V8weight]

Labor - 30ish hours if you know what's going on.
Parts (including ECU software from EPL) $6-8K

So basically what TozoM8 said.
It sounds like I just missed you at Cars & Cafe this weekend...maybe next time.

[ben916]

Labor - 30ish hours if you know what's going on.
Parts (including ECU software from EPL) $6-8K

So basically what TozoM8 said.

So its done? No issues or codes?

[OrangeAlfa]

Having read through this post.... You can build an automatic far more stout that original in many ways. Some do include new, more heavy duty parts... basic kits involve either different HD clutches and different thickness steels..(reaction plates) Removing wave plates from clutch packs to add one or two more clutch disc in a pack. installing torrington bearings in place of brass pushings or thrust plates to reduce friction and heat.. Usually these upgrades include changes to the front pump and valving to greatly increase pump pressure and therefore line pressure and holding pressure on the clutch packs. Valve body mods will allow MORE fluid for more cooling and faster reaction of clutches. Auto boxes work by slipping. But this same slipping creates heat. in a performance application you want to decrease the slip as much as possible. By making the clutches apply faster and with more hyd. pressure holding them you allow your motor to put its power to the ground. and make the trans more durable. But all this has trade offs too. The lock up feature on your TC is designed to eliminate TC slip once in top gear at cruise. This cuts down the tremendous amount of heat a TC produces. With the HP these cars make, I would expect to normally see a TC code on a car that has been driven hard to appear around the 60-80K mark on most performance vehicles. The seal failure on the input shaft explains the short life span. If you continue to drive the car with the CE light on and the TC slip.. the converter gets so hot it causes what is known as "ballooning". It will swell up and ruin the front pump on the transmission. Sometimes the thrust bearing on the engine as well.

I have found several kits that have everything needed to build a ZF for the Audi RS6... trick is finding someone with all the right tools and some experience building them. For the most part.. they are just another auto and any GOOD Auto/Trans guy should be able to do a successful rebuild. Beware the hacks. The TCU upgrades that are installed usually up your line pressure on the trans to max pressure on WOT upshifts and this helps with trans life...

Just my .02 as an ASE Master Tech for 24years building drag racers...

[Hotshu]

OrangeAlfa, based on your knowledge and experience, which kits & approximate cost of parts to rebuild a ZF for a RS6? What is a fair labor charge to do all the work & upgrades from an experienced (preferably drag racing too), reputable autom. transmission tech. If it's close to $10k total , I 'd rather convert to a manual 6 speed tranny.

[OrangeAlfa]

Off the top of my head ( I would have to do some research) most of the kits I have seen are in the 1000$ dollar range to 1500$ depending on what you want. This does not include hard parts. Such as planetary sets or sunshells or hardened input shafts. They are commonly referred to as "paper and rubber" kits. The kits I have seen do come with the steels and a few valveing upgrades and some guides for drilling/modifying the valve body and spacer plates. I would guess 1-2K for a bench job by a reputable builder. An Audi ZF trans is not harder to build than a A4OD or any ZF or Allison Trans out of any GM HD truck. it works no different than any other automatic out there. The paddle shift is all electronic control of the valve solenoids. The money is in the tools and the knowledge the builder has... and that he can charge high end car owners high end money to build it..Labor to pull the trans... I have been told about 11 hours R&R. So depends on your shops labor rate. 9K for a trans R&R and rebuild is pretty damn stout. But if they are the only guys that know the secrets of the ZF to make it better... they have the market cornered.

[OrangeAlfa]

@ Hotshu...Before you commit to the 6 speed conversion... Do ALOT of research. From what I have learned... the best way to install the 6 speed is to change your engine block to the S6 block (cha ching) or to weld, helicoil, modify your existing block (cha ching) Computer seems to not like it and is a real PITA to make it all work. I did read a very recent post that someone had finally developed software that will work for the change over to a 6speed in an RS6.. but again.. (CHA CHING!!!) the 6 speed can take the stock horse power.. but is iffy if your pushing over 500 hp.. it will take the daily driver occasional romp.. but it your a track guy or a drag strip guy... your gonna be eating clutches and transmissions anyway.... so your really just trading one headache for the other. At least from what I have read... I would read alot and ask a LOT of questions before I spent any money in that direction.