opinons requested - APR ECU amd MTM tcu -power surges - are they compatible?

[aussie rs6]

Hi fellow beast owners and enthusiasts,

I installed an APR ecu amd tcu last month. Car ran well all the time in either standard (450 BHP) or with real almost scary power at times in APR switchable position 3- 94 octane equivalent (~520 BHP) .:addict::addict:

I have just had shop do timing belt replacement and install of Wagner intercoolers and swapped out the APR TCU for a Hoppen MTM tcu - euro spec. Also sent APR ecu back to APR to have position 4 changed from 'valet ' mode to - 100 octane.

Great service from Mike at Hoppen on the MTM tcu chip. Also from APR on the ecu chip.:applause:

Fired up the beast upon return from shop. On APR postion 3- 94 octane ~520BHP observed upon moderate to firm acceleration under load going up a slight hill on local road a noticeable surging of power- between 2,000 and 3000 rpm (almost felt like fuel starvation and then fuel coming on). After 3,000 rpm ran hard and could not feel any surge. :vgrumpy: :cry:

Then switched to APR position1, standard and ran through same sequence on road and car appeared to run as sweet as usual.

Did this several times alternating between standard and position 3 over a period of 30 minutes.

To confuse matters further, at end of 30 minute period, beast appeared to run all right in position 3 without any surge,over the 2,000- 3000rpm range but I felt from seat of pants that maybe a little down on power- difficult to tell.

Very confusing as to what was going on.

Immediately thought that maybe the APR ecu had somehow changed in position 3 while being remapped from valet to 100 octane.

Took beast straight into shop for a vagcom vcds check- showed intermittent lean and rich running codes on left bank and same intermittent lean and rich running codes on right bank!

Visual inspection showed MAF's seating correctly.

possible causes - MAF's damaged on reinstall after timing belt change, but then why running sweet still on standard ecu program?
- extra boost in APR position 3 program now adversely affecting some component like MAF's, N75 diverters?
- APR ecu chip program for position 3 has inadvertently changed?
- intercooler pipes leaking?
- MTM tcu interacting with APR ecu, but don't see how it could. Certainly doesn't in standard position and shifts as expected.
All very puzzling. Appreciate any advice/opinions.

john

[V8weight]

I had the same issues running the MTM tcu chip with both the Eurocharged and Viper tune. The problem went away when I removed the MTM tcu chip and soldered in the Viper chip. It was a noticeable surge, or load reduction at freeway speeds in 5th gear, transitioning into the throttle to overtake or simply speed up. I think some of the load settings are wonky in the MTM map.

[DHall1]

Why would you pull out a APR TCU chip?

[V8weight]

Why would you pull out a APR TCU chip?
My thought as well???

[hahnmgh63]

He may have been swayed by a few comments from others in the last couple of weeks about which TCU chip was better. There was a reply from one or two others who had used both and they said they like the MTM TCU chip better. For any minor difference I think I would have stayed with the APR TCU chip myself.

[aussie rs6]

He may have been swayed by a few comments from others in the last couple of weeks about which TCU chip was better. There was a reply from one or two others who had used both and they said they like the MTM TCU chip better. For any minor difference I think I would have stayed with the APR TCU chip myself.

guilty as charged your honour.:doh: see 4everRS post of 1 May 2011 which indicated better fedback from the MTM tcu - http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/22549-TCU-Remap?highlight=apr plus other positive posts on MTM tcu.

I felt that the APR tcu was not as crisp on shifts as it should be on the principle that faster shifts produced less wear on torque converter clutches ( I did not want tyre chirping shifts). Praise for the MTM tcu indicated it was better.

I will revert to the APR tcu chip. The viper tcu chip is an option.

MTM tcu chip ok with standard ecu chip as many posters have attested.

Not so with the APR ecu chip in my case. Puzzling that MTM tcu works ok with Eurocharged ecu tune on Dhall and revo ecu tune on hahnmgh63 and APR ecu tune on 4everRS but not on V8weight eurocharged tune-note that all theses are US spec MTM tcu.

Not for me to conjecture on the elecronic mysteries of the eurospec MTM tcu chip and its interaction with APR ecu tune.:vhmmm:

To all, many thanks for the prompt response and advice.:applause: The forum truly shows the power and benefits of the RS6 forum and the experience of its members with challenges like the one I faced.

regards to all.

john

[hahnmgh63]

Hopefully somebody else with APR software will chime in as there is no guarantee that it is the problem because one other person had similar but of course if it looks like, smells like, acts like it.... Hate to see you spend the money to swap it around without more feedback? Try to P.M. 4everRS since he hasn't replied yet on this thread and see if he's ever had something similar or maybe he knows of others running the same combination. You are correct, running the Revo with the MTM TCU had never given me anything similar to what you described. Does it act the same way in different settings of the APR or just the one setting?

[aussie rs6]

Hopefully somebody else with APR software will chime in as there is no guarantee that it is the problem because one other person had similar but of course if it looks like, smells like, acts like it.... Hate to see you spend the money to swap it around without more feedback? Try to P.M. 4everRS since he hasn't replied yet on this thread and see if he's ever had something similar or maybe he knows of others running the same combination. You are correct, running the Revo with the MTM TCU had never given me anything similar to what you described. Does it act the same way in different settings of the APR or just the one setting?

Thanks for your reply hahnmgh63.

During the time the engine was surging with the MTM tcu and APR ecu, it did surge in APR position-2 and position -3. I did not try position-4 as do not have 100octane fuel.

I have beeen driving the beast around this afternoon wth various 'styles' of driving in APR position 3 with the MTM tcu chip and all feels ok now- no surging. Power feels good. perhaps the MTM tcu had to 'learn' the style of driving?

I will vagcom monday at the shop to see what diagnostics come up. If all ok will continue to run with the MTM tcu- the MTM tcu appears to shift quicker than the APR by my observation.

yours, puzzled.

[MaxRS6]

FWIW- I have the APR and MTM TCU and they seem to play together okay. Glad to see that yours may be getting sorted out.

[DHall1]

I had a hunch that was the case and I think you may be ok moving forward without the change back.

Understand we have what amounts to be the old school transmission in our cars and we may expect too much out of it.

Data log some wot runs on 3,31,115 and we can determine how the car is performing. 2800 to redline in 2nd or 3rd gear only.


Thanks for your reply hahnmgh63.

During the time the engine was surging with the MTM tcu and APR ecu, it did surge in APR position-2 and position -3. I did not try position-4 as do not have 100octane fuel.

I have beeen driving the beast around this afternoon wth various 'styles' of driving in APR position 3 with the MTM tcu chip and all feels ok now- no surging. Power feels good. perhaps the MTM tcu had to 'learn' the style of driving?

I will vagcom monday at the shop to see what diagnostics come up. If all ok will continue to run with the MTM tcu- the MTM tcu appears to shift quicker than the APR by my observation.

yours, puzzled.

[aussie rs6]

I had a hunch that was the case and I think you may be ok moving forward without the change back.

Understand we have what amounts to be the old school transmission in our cars and we may expect too much out of it.

Data log some wot runs on 3,31,115 and we can determine how the car is performing. 2800 to redline in 2nd or 3rd gear only.

DHall, thank you for your response.

On week end run on APR - 3, when all seemed to be going well - good power, etc., the old surge problem on firm acceleration in 3rd gear from 2,000 - 3,000 rpm reappeared, but just once.

On Monday morning on start up of the beast to go to the Shop, engine ran very rough on start on idle for 5 seconds. Half hour later at the Shop, scan was run.

VCDS VAG/ VAS Emulator. Version: Release 10.6.4 www.Ross-Tech.com

following identical codes came up as before;

4 faults found:

17535 - Fuel Trim: Bank 1 (Mult) : System too Rich
P1127 - 002 -Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent

17537 - Fuel Trim: Bank 2 (Mult) : System too Rich
P1129 - 002 -Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent

17544 - Fuel Trim: Bank 1 (Add) : System too Lean
P1136 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded

17546 - Fuel Trim: Bank 2 (Add) : System too Lean
P1138 - 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded

Readiness: 0000 0000

Shop starting to think it is not the MTM tcu, but perhaps MAF's (?) were disturbed/knocked during timing belt change, although no leaks at seals and no MAF codes being thrown up, although shop says MAF's don't always throw codes.

Readiness code shows TCU has already 'learned' what is has to for driving style.

Will switch back to APR tcu shortly to see if problem still persists on APR 3 setting.

No surge problems seen on APR 1 - standard tune, but is that because the intermittent fault, whatever it is, has not appeared while on standard tune and boost map?:vhmmm:

I will have to buy VCDS Ross Tech interface cable to carry out in car rolling road scans as per DHall suggestion. I was thinking of buying one anyhow for the beast- now have an excuse!:hahahehe:

All very puzzling. Any further opinions appreciated.

regards,
john

[SteveKen]

Data log some wot runs on 3,31,115 and we can determine how the car is performing. 2800 to redline in 2nd or 3rd gear only.

Did you do the logging yet? If you end up seeing throttle cut, after 3k rpm, then there's a very good chance you have a leak in your wastegate line(s)

[DHall1]

You need those data logs asap. Cant do anything without them.

[aussie rs6]

You need those data logs asap. Cant do anything without them.

Understood on need for data logs.

Shop wont data log on open road around the city due to speeds reached in 2nd or 3rd gear on WOT.

Looking for an AWD dyno shop to run a data log or have to wait till I get delivery of my RossTech VCDS.

[V8weight]

No need for data logs with those codes stored. Check the MAF G/S at idle with all accessories off. Should be between 2.7 and 5 volts. It appears they are shot. Are you running K&N filters? Also do a fuel pressure test...could be a faulty fuel pressure regulator. I would assume a smoke test has already occurred to check for vacuum and unmetered air leaks?

[aussie rs6]

No need for data logs with those codes stored. Check the MAF G/S at idle with all accessories off. Should be between 2.7 and 5 volts. It appears they are shot. Are you running K&N filters? Also do a fuel pressure test...could be a faulty fuel pressure regulator. I would assume a smoke test has already occurred to check for vacuum and unmetered air leaks?

V8 weight- thanks for response. Running OEM filters. Shop advised against K&N filters as have seen too many MAF's ruined with over oiling.

I will have Shop carry out the tests you suggest when booked in next. I have this vision of machievellian mechanic beating up on the MAF's on doing timing belt reinstall and muttering version of Arnies famous line "He'll be back!".

Seriously though, Shop mechanics are good guys, good service and have a lot of experience with Audis, stock and modded ( RS4's and TT's) but not RS6's. Understandable as only three in Perth!

I will continue to run the MTM tcu chip till try out above, as like its shift manners.

Will also datalog when get Rosstech cable and VCDS software to check out performance of the APR chip I have installed against logged examples on the forum.

regards,
john

[4everRS]

Like MaxRS6, I too have the MTM TCU and APR ECU. I think it works fine. No power surging that I can feel. But my shitty torque converter takes care of any power surges right now. Still waiting on Andre at ACE to get me one.

[ttboost]

Still waiting on Andre at ACE to get me one.


Good Luck. Better to find your own...we did...

[4everRS]

So, how did you find one that you knew was rebuildable? Getting frustrated with this.
Good Luck. Better to find your own...we did...

[ttboost]

So, how did you find one that you knew was rebuildable? Getting frustrated with this.

They are all rebuildable, unless someone had a catastophic failure, which we would likely know about. I Bought mine from a forum member, sent it right to Andre, when he sent it back, I sold mine to Palette, not sure if he sold his yet...PM him. If he did, find out who he sold his to and PM/email/call them and get theirs, if they sold theirs already, keep going.....

[aussie rs6]

No need for data logs with those codes stored. Check the MAF G/S at idle with all accessories off. Should be between 2.7 and 5 volts. It appears they are shot. Are you running K&N filters? Also do a fuel pressure test...could be a faulty fuel pressure regulator. I would assume a smoke test has already occurred to check for vacuum and unmetered air leaks?

V8 weight- you were right. The problem was MAF not seating /sealing correctly after cambelt change.

All reinstalled and now running sweet with no surge.

many thanks to all forum posters for advice. Very much appreciated.:applause:

Took the beast out on tuning day at local waneroo track tuning day.:race:

Boiled the brake fluid :doh:- an interesting experience for my son in law who was driving at time, I can tell you.:rolleyes:

Phaeton ducts and C6 big brake kit from Grizz and high boiling point brake fluid with Ferodo ds2500 pads on order.:addict::addict:

john

[MaxRS6]

...Took the beast out on tuning day at local waneroo track tuning day.:race:

Boiled the brake fluid :doh:- an interesting experience for my son in law who was driving at time, I can tell you.:rolleyes:

Phaeton ducts and C6 big brake kit from Grizz and high boiling point brake fluid with Ferodo ds2500 pads on order.:addict::addict:

john

Been there done that- Going down front strainght at Texas World Speedway. Reached about 145 at the end of the straight..Went diving into Turn 1 and the brakes were gone...Yikes...I let out a "No brakes..no brakes..no brakes at all". The instructor riding with me guided me through the turn with a very exacting point of "Rotate now" very calmly considering the situation. Swept around Turn 2 at approximately 100-110. Somehow managed to keep it on the track using every square inch of the track turn out area with the Quattro saving my a$$. It was a fun story after we made it back to the paddock safely. The Phaeton ducts were installed (albeit late to the party) and I haven't had an issue since that time using the Alcons, Phaeton ducts, Red Dot RBF600 fluid (changed before each track event), and track pads. I imagine your son-in-law has a story of equal entertainment and glad to hear it seems to have worked out okay!

[aussie rs6]

Been there done that- Going down front strainght at Texas World Speedway. Reached about 145 at the end of the straight..Went diving into Turn 1 and the brakes were gone...Yikes...I let out a "No brakes..no brakes..no brakes at all". The instructor riding with me guided me through the turn with a very exacting point of "Rotate now" very calmly considering the situation. Swept around Turn 2 at approximately 100-110. Somehow managed to keep it on the track using every square inch of the track turn out area with the Quattro saving my a$$. It was a fun story after we made it back to the paddock safely. The Phaeton ducts were installed (albeit late to the party) and I haven't had an issue since that time using the Alcons, Phaeton ducts, Red Dot RBF600 fluid (changed before each track event), and track pads. I imagine your son-in-law has a story of equal entertainment and glad to hear it seems to have worked out okay!

After that experience at 220 km/h, Son-in-law commented that Quattro really works after he ran off the edge of the track into sand and then back onto the track. I was not surpised the brake fluid boiled as the previous lap he ran by me by the pits, before the fade, I could smell the beasts front brakes burning!

I have also read on another post that running on the track with ESP on also heats up the brakes very quickly. ( may also stop you exiting the track stage left however)

john::addict:

[MaxRS6]

...I have also read on another post that running on the track with ESP on also heats up the brakes very quickly. ( may also stop you exiting the track stage left however)

john::addict:

Vedy true- I had a 180 incident at TWS when I decided to turn off ESP. However; the spin was mainly due to the nut behind the wheel..

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[aussie rs6]

Vedy true- I had a 180 incident at TWS when I decided to turn off ESP. However; the spin was mainly due to the nut behind the wheel..

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significant pucker factor at 3:27 with a bit of gardening thrown in!:applause:

I will stick to the ESP on . I need everything going for me.

regards,
john:addict:

[lswing]

Hmm, not been feeling power surges, more like power cuts, maybe MAF? Will check the air filters.

[aussie rs6]

Hmm, not been feeling power surges, more like power cuts, maybe MAF? Will check the air filters.

By 'power surges' I mean power fluctuates up and down, with down being a power cut.

[kienchil]

Hey mate just wondering which shop in Perth you got to install your MTM chip? I just had mine Eurocharged and now keen to install my MTM chip but the shop here in Adelaide is reluctant to do it, wondering if I can courier TCU + Chip to Perth and have it done and returned.

Cheers

[aussie rs6]

Hey mate just wondering which shop in Perth you got to install your MTM chip? I just had mine Eurocharged and now keen to install my MTM chip but the shop here in Adelaide is reluctant to do it, wondering if I can courier TCU + Chip to Perth and have it done and returned.

Cheers

I checked with my shop (local APR agent) here in Perth on the Adelaide Audi tune scene. The suggestion was to get in touch with German Motors or Buik Motors as they are local APR agents and do a lot of modifed chip installations, with German Motors most prominent.

Not a problem that they are APR agents as the clients wish is most important and they, like the shop in Perth, most likely send the TCU's out to a local reliable electronics shop that has the correct circuit board tools, chip soldering tool, anti static work mat etc. After all it is just a computer chip and any PC repairer/upgrade shop could remove the Audi TCU chip and install the MTM TCU chip.

There is also an excellent post on the forum that shows the before and after photos of an Audi TCU chip replaced with a MTM TCU chip.

If you cant find an Adelaide shop, you can go "the send it to Perth" route. Let me know.

I can report that the MTM TCU chip is everything it supposed to be and very happy with it.

regards,
john

[kienchil]

Actually German Auto are the guys I asked lol, they were under the weird impression that APR flash their TCU chips? Is this possible? I have always read that you can only solder the chips in... oh well I guess I could find an electronics store that could do it, I read that some people here have even done a DIY job, however i'm nowhere near steady enough with a soldering iron to do it!

[aussie rs6]

I am surprised at German Auto response at not knowing someone to replace the TCU chip. I sent my ECU and TCU to APR in Brisbane and the ECU definitely had the APR chip installed. I beleive the TCU was flashed by APR, but not sure.

However, It doent matter if APR flash the TCU chip or not, You want to remove the current TCU chip and replace it with the MTM TCU chip.

After running with the APR TCU, and after reviewing posts in this forum and the UK forum, I came to the conclusion that the MTM TCU would be worth a try. So purchased a MTM TCU chip and then had the local electronic repairer through Audi Quattro remove the APR TCU and install the MTM TCU.

I would recommend that you contact Buik Motors to see if they can arrange the MTM chip install as most people feel more comfortable with a recognised Audi tune shop doing it, so you have some comeback on the work. If they will not do it, then contact your local Computer IT man and ask him to have it installed on the TCU circuit board.

As a last resort, you can send to Brian at Audi Quattro here in Perth to have it done.

As i said, like a lot of other forum members, I am happy with my APR ECU chip with its standard, 95,98 and 100 octane maps and the MTM TCU chip.

[aussie rs6]

ps plus anti theft mode.