Just got done at the dyno

[yokust]

So pretty happy with the numbers so far

468whp/629wtq

11284

And for the fun part


http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/video/video.php?v=141157065957546&comments

[skribe]

Fook. Does that say 25 psi? Didn't think that was possible on these cars. Get that thing to the strip.

[yokust]

Track just officially opened last week, so it will soon happen (though its not that impressive times from up here, I will makeit down to sea level one of these days)

[PALETTE]

Well well! Give us the low down on all the updates you have done to it! That's some great numbers

[JSRS6]

Cant see the fun part, Troy. I guess you have to change the privacy settings on the video.

[JSRS6]

What WG's did you go with?

[speedtrapped]

Sweet, con grads on the #'s

[yokust]

<EMBED height=300 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=400 src=http://www.facebook.com/v/141157065957546 allowfullscreen="true"></EMBED>

Hopefully this works better

[JSRS6]

definitely. so...wastegates?

[JSRS6]

Hey, our headlights are twins!

[yokust]

Ultimate Motorwerks is the wastegate company

[JSRS6]

Thats right, i remember you posted the pics of them off the site awhile back.

[Ruergard]

Serious power! :thumb:

[RS6...]

Yokust - Congradulations on the numbers!

I have contacted Kevin@Ultimate Motorwerks and he informed me that his wastegate kit has three springs can you tell me which of the three you are using and what there psi/bar ratings are?

Also I noticed your boost still tappers off to ~1.0bar at redline was this done by the tuner to keep the EGT numbers under control or simply the turbochargers running out of flow?

Thanks in advance.

[ttboost]

Also I noticed your boost still tappers off to ~1.0bar at redline was this done by the tuner to keep the EGT numbers under control or simply the turbochargers running out of flow?

Thanks in advance.

I believe that is something that Audi did and cannot be fixed. Maybe to help keep the tranny from prematurely imploding?

[yokust]

The dropping off boost levels, is due souly to turbo size, and mostly the exhaust housing size. If these had larger hot sides a/r's it woult not ramp up so quickly, but also hold a stronger boost level to redline.

Almost all VAG turbo cars are designed this way. The torque curve of these cars are what make them such a blast to dive, even if they taper down quickly.

And if you check out a stock or chipped dyno graph with a boost signal reading, you would see the drop off of boost much more aggresively. And the stock wastegates only hold 6-8psi at redline. So the 15psi is a huge inprovement.

And I beleive after talking with Kevin@Ultimate, we decided the 12psi springs were best suited for my car and setup for the time being. If you talk to him, ask to look up what Joel@RSMotorsports ordered thru him. Its my buddies shop, that has an account with him.

[Elevens]

Excellent Numbers Dude. 629 ft-lbs at the wheels is serious. Torque Rules in my book. Nothing like being pinned into your seat by some heavy G forces, or punching it at 80mph and seeing how quickly cars in the rear view mirror get small. Keep the 0-60 runs at a minimum though because with that much Torque the Tranny most likely won't last to long If you abuse it...................

[4everRS]

So Troy, how does it feel when driving? HUGE difference I bet. Still full drivability? What tune? ect.

Nice results!

[RS6...]

The dropping off boost levels, is due souly to turbo size, and mostly the exhaust housing size. If these had larger hot sides a/r's it woult not ramp up so quickly, but also hold a stronger boost level to redline.

Almost all VAG turbo cars are designed this way. The torque curve of these cars are what make them such a blast to dive, even if they taper down quickly.

And if you check out a stock or chipped dyno graph with a boost signal reading, you would see the drop off of boost much more aggresively. And the stock wastegates only hold 6-8psi at redline. So the 15psi is a huge inprovement.

And I beleive after talking with Kevin@Ultimate, we decided the 12psi springs were best suited for my car and setup for the time being. If you talk to him, ask to look up what Joel@RSMotorsports ordered thru him. Its my buddies shop, that has an account with him.

Thanks for replying.

If these results are obtained using the 12psi spring I am very impressed. Would you agree that if a 1bar spring was used you would see closer to 1.5bar at redline?

Also if you dont mind asking your tuner what the requested boost at redline is for comparison?

Thanks

[JSRS6]

He is also a mile above sea level...:hihi:

[yokust]

If these results are obtained using the 12psi spring I am very impressed. Would you agree that if a 1bar spring was used you would see closer to 1.5bar at redline?


No I dont think much more would be capable out of stock turbos, just because the wastegate spring is stronger does not mean that the turbo will make usable boost.

[JSRS6]

No I dont think much more would be capable out of stock turbos, just because the wastegate spring is stronger does not mean that the turbo will make usable boost.

But maybe a little more? Lol

[yokust]

But maybe a little more? Lol

It might be a little more, and that little more might be when the turbo pulls the pin and goes everywhere

[JSRS6]

So what is the stock spring? 8 or 10?

[yokust]

6psi is what almost all KKK turbos are set to for 'crack' pressure. And I think that the springs are like 4-5psi

[JSRS6]

How much were those ultimate wg's?

[10SecS4]

Nice numbers. Based on my past experiences with these cars, I'm assuming your tranny isn't stock?

[skribe]

:pop:


. . .

[yokust]

TC was custom built for these power outputs. And trans is just a rebuilt unit right now.

From personal experience w/all VAG auto cars, and talking with some of the trans builders. Almost 90% of trans failures is caused by a weak or slipping TC. Once the TC starts leaking pressure and slipping it causes slipping down the line to everything.

So we will see how long it lasts, not too worried about it. If it blows something else will get done and more fun under the hood as well

[ttboost]

TC was custom built for these power outputs. And trans is just a rebuilt unit right now.

From personal experience w/all VAG auto cars, and talking with some of the trans builders. Almost 90% of trans failures is caused by a weak or slipping TC. Once the TC starts leaking pressure and slipping it causes slipping down the line to everything.

So we will see how long it lasts, not too worried about it. If it blows something else will get done and more fun under the hood as well


Exactly. That's why I stopped driving mine as soon as I got the code. Now that I have the Ace Converter, we'll see how long the tranny lives...

[PALETTE]

Exactly. That's why I stopped driving mine as soon as I got the code. Now that I have the Ace Converter, we'll see how long the tranny lives...

Mike with all the issues you had I really hope it's long time

[10SecS4]

Well I can't say that has been my experience with RS6s... The input shaft on my old grey '03 RS6 twisted like a pretzel after a couple dozen 1/4 mile passes:

11295

Stock turbos, stock wastegates, 13psi of boost and an estimated 550 HP.

I did launch the car a lot. If you're not launching or drag racing your car perhaps it'll live.

Do you have a complete mod list?


TC was custom built for these power outputs. And trans is just a rebuilt unit right now.

From personal experience w/all VAG auto cars, and talking with some of the trans builders. Almost 90% of trans failures is caused by a weak or slipping TC. Once the TC starts leaking pressure and slipping it causes slipping down the line to everything.

So we will see how long it lasts, not too worried about it. If it blows something else will get done and more fun under the hood as well

[PALETTE]

6psi is what almost all KKK turbos are set to for 'crack' pressure. And I think that the springs are like 4-5psi

mine was set to Crack at 3.5 i wish it was 6psi

[JCviggen]

This may be an unpopular opinion but when I look at that graph I see bad tuning.
Spiking the boost at 3800rpm and then drop it off a cliff is not the best way to tune a car, nor the fastest. It does kick you in the back something awful when you get on it, I bet. Peak power at 4000rpm is inexcusable, especially if you lose 50whp by the time you're 500rpms higher. Its not a diesel conversion is it? Instead this is putting immense load on the driveline at 4000rpm with little to show for it afterwards. I mean when the trans shfts at 6500rpm the revs will drop down to a point that is still much higher than where your peak power is so basically you never get near your peak except the moment you punch it.
What should be done is a boost curve that peaks SLIGHTLY above what you can hold higher up 5-6K rpm the range you actually USE during full acceleration. It will give you both more power at high rpm (you dont heat saturate the intake air prematurely) and less driveline stress while at the same time getting better times. Peaks mean nothing, at most they can impress a drinking buddy.

[yokust]

This may be an unpopular opinion but when I look at that graph I see bad tuning.
Spiking the boost at 3800rpm and then drop it off a cliff is not the best way to tune a car, nor the fastest. It does kick you in the back something awful when you get on it, I bet. Peak power at 4000rpm is inexcusable, especially if you lose 50whp by the time you're 500rpms higher. Its not a diesel conversion is it? Instead this is putting immense load on the driveline at 4000rpm with little to show for it afterwards. I mean when the trans shfts at 6500rpm the revs will drop down to a point that is still much higher than where your peak power is so basically you never get near your peak except the moment you punch it.
What should be done is a boost curve that peaks SLIGHTLY above what you can hold higher up 5-6K rpm the range you actually USE during full acceleration. It will give you both more power at high rpm (you dont heat saturate the intake air prematurely) and less driveline stress while at the same time getting better times. Peaks mean nothing, at most they can impress a drinking buddy.


Well this is true some what, it is not based on the tuning. The spike and drop off is based on turbo and turbine a/r size. This is the way VW/Audi build there vehicles.

The exhaust turbine size is very small based on liter's of motor. Thus causing the extreme ramp up of boost and torque. But then being small turbos, they do not have the UUMMPH to carry completly thru the rpm band.

If you turn off the N75 valve in the computer, even stock these cars will spike quickly up to 14ish psi and drop off down to 6psi by redline. With the wastegates I am using, it spikes to 20ish psi and drops down to about 13psi at redline.


But what you said would be true if these cars had a turbo to handle that kind of power across the rev band. I would surely like to put a set of GT2871's or GT3071's on the car, and will some day. But the thing you have to remember is that it is going to TOTALLY change the driveability of this car. These cars with a driver weigh around 4500 lbs, so changing how quickly they are able to ramp the boost would also make these cars even more of a dog when taking off from a start.

So even if its not the best use of power, it is done to make them drive like they do, and the reason you bought yours

[hahnmgh63]

Hey watch it, I'm not that fat. My car was 4160# on the scale. But that is with Forged wheels, lightweight dry-cell battery, no spare, etc...

[JCviggen]

Well this is true some what, it is not based on the tuning. The spike and drop off is based on turbo and turbine a/r size. This is the way VW/Audi build there vehicles.

The exhaust turbine size is very small based on liter's of motor. Thus causing the extreme ramp up of boost and torque. But then being small turbos, they do not have the UUMMPH to carry completly thru the rpm band.


I agree the dropoff is because the turbos are small but that is not really a good reason to justify that boost spike. If they are too small to maintain the boost level then turn it down, simples. The way things are setup right now, your outright acceleration or 1/4 mile trap speed suffers. Basically your turbos blow their juice before the party starts. Not that the effect is only down to the turbos, but keeping it simple. At full throttle your car spends most time between 5000 and 6500rpm. Thats where you need to maximise power in order to get the best times and speeds.
Torque is nice but that boost curve and torque spike gives one nightmares. A mapped RS6 is already not short any torque. And torque that barely lasts a few hundred RPM is not significant anyway, aside from that mental kick in the back. Which is needlessly hard on the mechanical bits without giving you much actual benefit.
Properly asjusted boost could spike to maybe 17-18psi and hold 15. You will lose a bit of peak torque (while still making enough to pull trees out of the ground) which means little and gain power afterwards, possibly as much as 20whp at 6000, which does make you move.
Having small turbos is not a reason to spike 23psi down to 15 2000rpm later. You either limit the spike or you fit big turbos that spike 25 and hold 23. Well, nobody is going to put you in jail obviously but that is the way to get the most performance out of what you are working with. And thats how a 440whp car could well beat a 468 one. Peak numbers mean nothing, ever!

[JSRS6]

The man makes a good point...

[yokust]

Honestly, and not to be rude. But you either did not read everything I put or did not understand it.

If you turn off computer control of the wastegate N75 solenoid valve. So the car is just running off complete wastegate pressure, VW/Audi cars will spike this hard. And these cars spike this hard.

This is the same that K03/K04 on S4 2.7t's works. And is why everyone uses RS6 K04's on there 2.7's. The exhaust a/r is much larger, and does not cause the large spike, and makes much more usable power.

SO AGAIN, I agree with what you are saying. But with stock turbos and turbine housings on these vehicles it is not going to happen

[JCviggen]

Honestly, and not to be rude. But you either did not read everything I put or did not understand it.

If you turn off computer control of the wastegate N75 solenoid valve. So the car is just running off complete wastegate pressure, VW/Audi cars will spike this hard. And these cars spike this hard.


I indeed did not understand that one...why turn off the N75 valve? I haven't mapped the M7.1 but I find it hard to believe that unplugging boost control and simply run with basically closed wastegates until EMP forces them open is the way forward.
Use an electronic controller if the ECU is not capable of regulating boost to your satisfaction. I do now see where the gigantic spike comes from. Boost control is a good thing!! Doing away with it cannot possibly be the best solution from where I am sitting...

[MaxRS6]

The man makes a good point...

+2 - Not to pile on but I have to agree. However; my opinion is worthless...:pop:

[QuattroRS]

FWIW this was a the Speedtrapped dyno with just a reflash and gutted cats. Near max wheel hp at 4800 and flat curve past 6000. Just sayin

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a476/drh11/Sibilia_RS6_Dyno_Runs_2.jpg

[yokust]

I indeed did not understand that one...why turn off the N75 valve? I haven't mapped the M7.1 but I find it hard to believe that unplugging boost control and simply run with basically closed wastegates until EMP forces them open is the way forward.
Use an electronic controller if the ECU is not capable of regulating boost to your satisfaction. I do now see where the gigantic spike comes from. Boost control is a good thing!! Doing away with it cannot possibly be the best solution from where I am sitting...

The reason you turn off the N75 or reduce the duty cycle is to help reduce the boost spike just as you were saying, which is why I agree.

And by turning it off you are running them old fashion style just off of boost pressure. So when boost overcomes wastegate spring pressure, the gates open. So with that turned off or reduced you will see what just the wastegates and turbos do.

So having it turned off, so it is just turbos and wastegates working, the way the have been since beginning of time. The car will spike to 20psi and hold around 12-13psi. So when using the control of the ecu it spikes to 24psi and holds 15psi. So the control is just adding a few more psi across it. The turbos are doing the complete spike, based on size

[MaxRS6]

FWIW this was a the Speedtrapped dyno with just a reflash and gutted cats. Near max wheel hp at 4800 and flat curve past 6000. Just sayin

Oh yeah...

<IFRAME height=390 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-zu0p7xWLoU" frameBorder=0 width=480 allowfullscreen></IFRAME> (file://<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-zu0p7xWLoU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>)

[yokust]

FWIW this was a the Speedtrapped dyno with just a reflash and gutted cats. Near max wheel hp at 4800 and flat curve past 6000. Just sayin

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a476/drh11/Sibilia_RS6_Dyno_Runs_2.jpg

And if you notice his torque fell off just as mine does. 500 peak and 300 at redline

Mine was 629 peak, and 400 at redline

[speedtrapped]

good ole jerry @ Eurocharged!!!

[DHall1]

Oh $hit, I think I was there ...dammit Randy you sucked me in with the vid.

Speedtrapped....hey, hey! What about me! I had .02c in that flash as well. LOL

Hmmm, let me see...at every shift you're at or near max wheel hp and the next gear is starting out at or near max wheel hp.


Oh yeah...

<IFRAME height=390 src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-zu0p7xWLoU" frameBorder=0 width=480 allowfullscreen></IFRAME> (file://<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-zu0p7xWLoU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>)

[speedtrapped]

Sorry Yokust, I did not drag my dyno chart into this.....and Yes Dave u were very instrumental....btw, VA day, Jerry aka Dr. frankensteen will be tweaking the Special Sauce on the dyno

[JSRS6]

And the above average sauce :hihi:

[JCviggen]

The reason you turn off the N75 or reduce the duty cycle is to help reduce the boost spike just as you were saying, which is why I agree.

And by turning it off you are running them old fashion style just off of boost pressure. So when boost overcomes wastegate spring pressure, the gates open. So with that turned off or reduced you will see what just the wastegates and turbos do.

I see now that you've upgraded the wastegate actuator springs. If you need to unplug the N75 to get it to spike less and still end up with this result then the springs are way too stiff. They did used to run turbos like that until about 20 years ago...the reason nowdays they use a solenoid and weaker springs is because it works better. Much better control, less spiking, and you can hold plenty of boost by reducing the pressure the spring sees. Forcing the WG closed with a very stiff spring can also result in over-spinning your turbos by the way which would mean putting them on borrowed time. All in all I fail to see how this setup improves on the starting point, imho you've gone backwards...and I'm not trying to be a dick here just calling it as I see it.
The spike when the turbos kick in is not good... spiking >8psi for a couple hundred is not good.

Speedtrapped dyno is a beauty. When turbos are setup just right you get a nice fat + flat power curve that only drops off at the very high end. Area under the curve is where it's at...thats also what makes a X hp turbo car faster than an X hp NA car.
His power curve is flat, yours is compromised by the initial spike which adds heat and leads to the ECU needing to pull some timing right after the spike which leads to a 50hp dip. Torque will always drop as revs rise but it needs to do so in a controlled manner like speedtrapped's. That's exactly the shape yours should be except a little higher maybe 20-30hp over his numbers if you manage to hold more boost.

These cars are pretty fragile from the get-go without pushing turbo shaft RPM and monster torque numbers for shits and giggles. Still she's a monster I'm sure.

[yokust]

Except you forget, that NO matter how the boost control is you cannot correct wastegate creep with control. ITS impossible. And these cars have massive creep due to the small wastegate springs.

And you can say what you want, my car made the same dyno numbers and graph with just software and exhaust like SpeedTrappeds. But since all this mine runs almost 1sec faster 1/4 mile times, so I will say its just fine

[skribe]

Like you say, JCviggen , ET's are all that matters. Get it to the strip, see what it does. You should throw down a slip from your car that proves your tuning expertise on this particular platform in the real world.

Yokust's car has a camel-back boost curve for sure, but hits much higher positive pressure than I thought possible on these cars, to his point, it sustains much higher than stock. I would love to see how that translates on the strip. Who knows until that's done.

But my dyno curve is the most dyno curve of all.

http://www.geekologie.com/2010/05/21/dino-pitch.jpg

[speedtrapped]

^^^x2..... Put up or shhhhhhhhh....I am a polite American

[JSRS6]

Like you say, JCviggen , ET's are all that matters. Get it to the strip, see what it does. You should throw down a slip from your car that proves your tuning expertise on this particular platform in the real world.

Yokust's car has a camel-back boost curve for sure, but hits much higher positive pressure than I thought possible on these cars, to his point, it sustains much higher than stock. I would love to see how that translates on the strip. Who knows until that's done.

But my dyno curve is the most dyno curve of all.

http://www.geekologie.com/2010/05/21/dino-pitch.jpg

:hihi::hihi:

[10SecS4]

What did you run in the 1/4?


Except you forget, that NO matter how the boost control is you cannot correct wastegate creep with control. ITS impossible. And these cars have massive creep due to the small wastegate springs.

And you can say what you want, my car made the same dyno numbers and graph with just software and exhaust like SpeedTrappeds. But since all this mine runs almost 1sec faster 1/4 mile times, so I will say its just fine

[JCviggen]

Except you forget, that NO matter how the boost control is you cannot correct wastegate creep with control. ITS impossible. And these cars have massive creep due to the small wastegate springs.

And you can say what you want, my car made the same dyno numbers and graph with just software and exhaust like SpeedTrappeds. But since all this mine runs almost 1sec faster 1/4 mile times, so I will say its just fine

1/4 times are largely driver dependent. Trap speed is more unbiased but either way you make more power than that car because you hold more boost. That doesnt make your power curve any less crappy. Or your car more likely to last long with this setup. You should have his curve except higher, and then your car would be faster and more reliable than it is now, thats all I am saying.
You have successfully eliminated wastegate creep but have gone over the top at the same time. The fact that you are holding 15psi at high revs without boost control means you have effectively a 15psi preload on the wastegate. Stock is what, 4 or 5 max? You have tripled/quadrupled the preload which gives you that insane and ill advised boost spike. A 10psi actual preload would probably have taken care of plenty of creep. Because you are not using boost control, the wastegate spring has to hold closed the wastegate against EMP plus boost pressure. A much weaker spring could do the same thing if it only had to hold closed EMP + 1/3rd of actual boost by employing a boost control solenoid. Its simple mathematics. Hence you can eliminate WG creep with control because it puts less force onto the spring so a weaker one does the same job. Provided you have a suitable wastegate actuator spring. Not too soft not too hard. Your setup is unnecessarily brute force. And it is hurting your potential performance. That your car is already fast I believe. But it could have been even better had the principles of modern turbocharging been followed properly.

[JSRS6]

Dave, where's the popcorn?

[yokust]

What did you run in the 1/4?

Before wastegates it ran 12.8@112, But remember I am at 5300 ft above sea level

we will see this coming week what it runs

[JSRS6]

Troy, you gotta come down here where the air isn't soo thin!

[yokust]

Hence you can eliminate WG creep with control because it puts less force onto the spring so a weaker one does the same job. Provided you have a suitable wastegate actuator spring.

Wastegate creep is caused from excessive back pressure in the turbine housing, and causes exhaust gas to force open wastegate. There are only 2 ways to eliminate it #1 stronger wastegate springs, #2 larger exhaust turbine a/r's. You cannot repair wastegate creep with any control

[Elevens]

Interesting watching you guys battle it out. I'm learning alot also, I guess. All I know is that under WOT my boost gauge peaks at about 18 PSI and tapers to about 15PSI. Can't Imagine peaking at 25PSI this would seem awfully dangerous, but what do I know. Also I believe Engine management uses the N75 Valve to Limit boost under Ill advised conditions. Funny thing though is that after she tapers to 15PSI the boost continues to drop at which time she really starts to pull. I guess Its not all about boost, Fueling and Timing are the Major players In the game of Acceleration.....

[JCviggen]

Wastegate creep is caused from excessive back pressure in the turbine housing, and causes exhaust gas to force open wastegate. There are only 2 ways to eliminate it #1 stronger wastegate springs, #2 larger exhaust turbine a/r's. You cannot repair wastegate creep with any control

Yes but it's not black and white. If you have creep with spring of X strength and the control solenoid is at 100% then you need to upgrade the spring to a stronger one because no amount of control wil help you get rid of the creep. But when I say "stronger" I don't mean go straight to double or triple the strength.
Putting a very stiff actuator on a tiny A/R turbo designed to spool quickly is just asking for the mental spiking you are seeing now. Since you can run this actuator with 0% duty cycle on the solenoid and still hold 15psi, you would get the same result with a weaker (but NOT as weak as stock) spring at 50% or higher duty cycle. Whilst maintaining control, less spiking, and leave the ECU in charge so it can cut boost if things go wrong. So with a suitable uprated spring, boost control DOES make the difference between creep yes or no.

The principle of what you are saying is absolutely correct, you've just overdone it slightly. Educated guess an 8psi actuator (preload included - it appears yours is 12psi base + 3psi preload) should get you there. Rule of thumb for solenoid controlled actuators : their strength should be ~50% of target boost.

[JSRS6]

^^^ I like this guy! Lots of good points man, and you haven't come across as an a$$. Some do when defending, but you just stick to the facts.

[4everRS]

I like both points, and it's good to see two knowledgeable people discuss this.

[JCviggen]

^^^ I like this guy! Lots of good points man, and you haven't come across as an a$$. Some do when defending, but you just stick to the facts.

Sure I don't want to make anyone feel like I'm attacking them personally, when you put a lot of work into something and then get some **** in a forum saying you should've done it differently its not pleasant.

I just have a lot of experience with boost control (which involved lots of cussing at times) and I feel in this case the OP shouldn't settle for what he has so far achieved with the car because it can be done just a bit better.

Trouble with actuators is that there's limited control over the results. Too soft and it sucks and too hard is also troublesome. Can't stop it fading or can't stop it spiking. The goldilocks zone is pretty narrow. Doesn't help when you can't bloody reach them like with the RS6.

[PALETTE]

So just to be clear here. Are you saying that a Manual EBC connected to a External Wastegate would be the best solution? the thing is 80% of owners just love o get in hammer it and fuel up, the set up i think scares alot of owners.
Thoughts??

[JCviggen]

So just to be clear here. Are you saying that a Manual EBC connected to a External Wastegate would be the best solution? the thing is 80% of owners just love o get in hammer it and fuel up, the set up i think scares alot of owners.
Thoughts??

No I would keep it simple : uprated actuators (somewhere in between stock and what he has now to control spiking) and N75 control properly mapped in the ECU. Should scare no-one I think. Taking away boost control from the ECU could create its own problems.
External wastegates are not an option on the standard turbos...it's integrated in the housing. Perhaps with a garrett swap it could be possible but there is very little room down there.

[PALETTE]

No I would keep it simple : uprated actuators (somewhere in between stock and what he has now to control spiking) and N75 control properly mapped in the ECU. Should scare no-one I think. Taking away boost control from the ECU could create its own problems.
External wastegates are not an option on the standard turbos...it's integrated in the housing. Perhaps with a garrett swap it could be possible but there is very little room down there.

Little room?? thats un understatement! LOL i'm surprised there is all that in there and room for Air! LOL

Yea the EBC is a nightmare. It took me a whole month to set mine up properly on the TT Porsche and its constatly needing tweeking

I am looking at the Garretts the next time i need to drop the motor, not for a long time i hope!

[yokust]

i think the one thing you keep missing in all my posts, is that the ecu control of boost is not turned off. It was turned off to check the setup. It is the same procedure you would do when setting up a manual or electronic boost controller. If you do not know what the wastegates make on there own, you can not determine proper control over them. The ecu is controlling the spike and the extra over wastegate spring pressure on the top end.

And I still think you are missing the fact, that my car only makes 4psi more on the spike then before the wastegates and holds 10psi more on the top end.

And do not worry the car is not done, this is still with an "off the shelf" APR chip, and not even fully retuned for the setup

[JCviggen]

And I still think you are missing the fact, that my car only makes 4psi more on the spike then before the wastegates and holds 10psi more on the top end.

You were spiking near 20psi with a 6psi wastegate and N75 turned off? Or was the N75 connected and was the stock one only holding 5psi at the top end? Either of those scenarios your stock actuator had to be kind of buggered. But it's difficult to extract the precise information from your posts (spike/hold values of each actuator with and without N75 control respectively)
You can hold 13-14psi at 6000rpm with stock actuators, from experience. My RS6 hasn't been mapped at this point but my friend's spikes 16 holds 13 w/an MTM chip. Nothing wrong with stock actuators apparently. People with bad boost fade must have worn actuators or cheesy intercoolers.

The off the shelf APR chip might be the main problem then (I believe bad/unsuitable tuning was the first thing I mentioned) it is probably expecting a lower base pressure. An engine that revs to 6700 should not ever make peak power at 4000rpm I think that much should be obvious. A custom remap can probably straighten things out. When properly mapped your peak numbers will likely suffer but better on average if you take the entire range. Looks like we're back where we started!

[yokust]

I have seen 3 different RS6's with software on the dyno APR, GIAC, and MTM and not one of those held 13psi at redline. All down to 7-8psi. And of course this is done with the dyno's datalog system so alot more accurate then someones gauge that you are watching. And if you watch even in the ecu, they are requesting more boost then they were actually making.

And again, MY car is only making 4psi more on the spike then it did before the wastegates. This is with N75 control. And it never exceeds the ecu requested value(or would cause a limp condition).

[JCviggen]

7-8 psi mapped?? Not to draw any conclusions about those cars' condition but mine does 9psi @6500rpm completely standard logged with VCDS (actual boost, you know you can log that too right?) and I know for a fact I have small leaks in the ICs. 1670mbar and requested was 1650. Only the last 100rpm before it shifts then the ECU pulls boost to protect the gearbox a little. The turbo's airflow rating should certainly support 13-14psi on 2.1L displacement and a guesstimated VE. Albeit at the very edge of the map where you get hot air. Maybe you have some bad examples over there or...?

I don't use any chinese ebay boost gauges, and dyno measurements are btw not always more reliable. I've been on one that was completely off. VCDS logging + a decent boost gauge should give you a good idea regardless.

If your car was spiking near 20 and holding 8 on standard actuators then that was terrible as well and doesn't make the current situation any better. Stage 1 mapped RS6 do not unavoidably spike 20psi when you get on it. And a 4psi spike should be a maximum, 4 extra is a lot. Seriously look at your graph, max power at 4000, crashes down 50hp by 4500rpm due to timing pull from the torque spike. Then recovers 10 horsepower before a steady decline from 5000 onwards. By the time you hit 6000 you've lost 60-70whp. You cannot possibly by any stretch of the imagination call that good. Just look where your rev needle spends most of its time when WOT. Of course your driveline losses increase as speeds go up so engine power is a slightly different story but still it's pretty nasty. Your power curve looks like what the torque curve should be. I don't think you can realistically argue about that.

edit, log of my car. Notice very modest spiking with the standard actuator. If the stock ECU can do it, a well mapped one can too.
http://www.greenringer.net/various/bst.png

[MaxRS6]

APR (93 Gas Mode) for comparison purposes...

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz195/MaxRS6/MaxBoost.jpg?t=1304194029

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz195/MaxRS6/MaxGraph-1.jpg?t=1304194029

[yokust]

Dang you can log with vcds????? Wow I have only mentioned I have done this in many of posts

[JCviggen]

Dang you can log with vcds????? Wow I have only mentioned I have done this in many of posts

I think I'm done with this thread now...the fact that you don't bother replying when I refute some of your points seems to imply that you've made up your mind about whatever and everything else gets filtered.
I mean you claimed mapped RS6 hold 7-8 max and so I show you they hold 9.5 stock...(I think that makes some of your claims B.S.)
Then all you bother to reply is that you can log too? Very on topic, though about in the line of expectations.

Best of luck getting it sorted.


MaxRS6, thanks! Interesting to see the log. I don't see any of the wild spikes in your APR setup that yokust seems to insist are inherent to the car/turbo/tune. In fact there is no spike at all, nice.

[yokust]

7 completely standard logged with VCDS (actual boost, you know you can log that too right?)

Well no offense, but after you read this, and I have stated that I have logged this multiple times, just tells me you do not read what I put and you just want to argue.

And I have argreed with you on multiple points you have made

And sorry I dont have logs saved on my cell phone to post, but be sure when I get off work I will post plenty up for you.

But even in Max's log, you can see where the requested boost is above the actual. Is the point where a 'tuned' car cannot keep the wastegates closed in order to meet the boost.

[yokust]

11297

It is kind of hard to read, I did not have a graph file on this comp.

The huge boost spike is 3.48psi over requested. This is a 3rd gear run, I also have a 4th gear if you would like to see it.

And in case you did not read it before I am at 5300 ft ABOVE Sea Level

[JCviggen]

And I have argreed with you on multiple points you have made


Fair enough, perhaps I read too hastily. Does not replying to something equal agreement? Just wondering about that.

So far, you've said that you saw 3 different mapped cars hold only 7-8psi to redline. That may be true, but in that case they all had a mechanical issue since even a stock one will do more than that. I did not read your reply to that particular argument.



But even in Max's log, you can see where the requested boost is above the actual. Is the point where a 'tuned' car cannot keep the wastegates closed in order to meet the boost.To be fair, Max's log does not extend high enough in the rpm range to see any real dropoff, the one he posted there is negligible boost fade of half a psi. Certainly at some point it will drop off a little bit more but that is more of a turbo size thing than a wastegate issue imo. You could force a little more out of them by holding the wg shut but a limited amount that is going to have little actual benefit due to rapidly increasing heating of the charge air, compressor efficiency is already in a nosedive at that point for direct comparison.


The huge boost spike is 3.48psi over requested. This is a 3rd gear run, I also have a 4th gear if you would like to see it.

And in case you did not read it before I am at 5300 ft ABOVE Sea LevelIt seems you've posted a log from your turbos with the old stock actuators? That is not a huge boost spike, that is acceptable. And your boost drops off more than expected at very high rpm meaning your actuators were probably pretty shot when you replaced them with (too) stiff ones. Still I see it hold 11psi at 6500rpm. That's not so bad is it?
Also seems to contradict
my car only makes 4psi more on the spike then before the wastegates and holds 10psi more on the top endThe dyno graph showed boost reaching ~24psi at spoolup. It requests around 14.5psi so your total spike is about 10psi. And you are holding only about 3psi more at the top. Some part of that you would have managed with new stock actuators most probably.
Essentially you understated the level of the spike and way overstated the "gains" at high rpm. You're not a politician by any chance are you? :) Just kidding, no offence intended!

I don't know how much of an influence altitude has on boost control, I know from experience that you do need more duty cycle at higher altitude to reach the same amount of boost. The air is thinner so you need more RPM from the turbo's compressor to get the same air mass. Still, power output wise turbo cars suffer very little from altitude. If they manage to reach their target absolute boost there is no penalty. That's why altitude correction in the dyno software should always be turned off when dyno-ing a turbo car.

But I do think the altitude could be part of the reason yours held 11psi on stock actuators and here in Europe we see more like 13psi near sea level. But I still think you went for far too stiff springs. Have you logged by any chance how much it spikes on a gearchange? That could also be interesting to look at. Also interesting would be a similar log with the strong actuators.

[MaxRS6]

Here is the higher range numbers...

FWIW- This has been an interesting thread and I appreciate Yokust and JcViggen sharing their information and experience..

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz195/MaxRS6/MaxGraph2.jpg?t=1304252248

[JCviggen]

Thank you Max, those are good numbers 12.5psi @ 6600 and about what a healthy stock setup should do, only 1.9psi less than requested. I think the myth of gigantic boost fade at high rpm's is now definitevely busted.

[4everRS]

Max's logs are from an APR tuned car

[JCviggen]

Max's logs are from an APR tuned car

Ya I meant stock turbos/wastegates since that's what the debate is about.

[yokust]

No that log was done from Saturday night. And with the upgraded wastegates.

And another difference between datalog and gauge boost pressure vs stock ecu readings. My gauge in car reads fairly close to dyno datalog numbers btw the way.

And atmospheric pressure here is 800mBar to calculate boost by the way

Altitude makes a HUGE difference up here. You loose a few psi for every 1000ft above sea level. Boost psi is the same at any altitude, of course, but what it takes to compress the thinner air takes alot more work. So the ecu to attempt to compensate for altitude ramps up the turbo pressure very quickly to get up to requested

Hunted down a dyno from my previous RS6. This dyno was jsut APR software and NOTHING else. Boost on this one dropped off to 10psi, and this is a mapped car. The autometer gauge I had in this car would read 8psi at the top end.
11298


And this is the same that my RS6(current car) dyno looked like with just APR software, held same psi at top end. And I will try to grab graphs from dyno for other cars. It was all done with Apikol when testing intercoolers and intakes.

[JCviggen]

That explains the difference then because the ecu shows absolute pressure including the ambient air pressure. In a way its easy to compare then because if your ecu says 1700mbar performance is the same as 1700 in a car at sea level. Just its harder for you to reach that much.
Is that dyno also at high altitude? Kind of explains the high boost levels you see on a normal gauge since that shows boost over ambient press. Which in your case is significant to say the least.
The dyno says corrected power, do you have the raw numbers? Altitude pressure correction calculations do not apply well to turbo cars.

Your old car had a very decent power curve, max at 5k and no big sudden drops.

[yokust]

Yes dyno is at high altitude. And the dynos have different correction factors for both turbo and n/a cars. Because having a correction factor is still an issue, because pre-turbo there is no air to use, so still a big loss in power. And still none the less of using the corection factor or not, the graph will look the same, just the numbers will change.

Just for thought for you. N/A cars up here run about 1.5-2 sec slower 1/4 times and Turbo cars run about .8-1.2 sec 1/4 times. So it is still a big loss.

My car up here while power braking(left foot braking) will only make about 3-4psi before wastegates, now with wastegates will make 6-7psi. Down at sea level before car would make 8psi before wastegates and about 10psi with wastegates. (I was in SoCal last month right after putting car together)

And the old car made the same power as new car with just APR software, and would run a 13.4-13.6 1/4 time. And again the new car last season ran a 12.8, and since wastegates car is MUCH faster, but next couple weeks when I go to track will show the proof

[JCviggen]

STP correction is mentioned on the sheet and that definitely does not differentiate between turbo and N/A, but that's purely academic. STP is about 4% more optimistic than SAE because it supposes lower temperature and higher air pressure. Raw numbers would be more interesting, but it's usually not in dyno shops' interest, and as long as you're comparing on the same dyno it doesn't matter much anyway.

What trap speeds are you getting? ET depends on a lot of things, trap speed just needs horsepower.

I have no doubt the car is faster but that tq/power curve absolutely needs work. If not for performance then definitely for reliability.

[yokust]

STP correction is mentioned on the sheet and that definitely does not differentiate between turbo and N/A, but that's purely academic. STP is about 4% more optimistic than SAE because it supposes lower temperature and higher air pressure. Raw numbers would be more interesting, but it's usually not in dyno shops' interest, and as long as you're comparing on the same dyno it doesn't matter much anyway.


Now do not fully quote me on this, but from talking to many dyno companies at SEMA each year. DynoCom and Superflow are one of the two that use boost signals to properly calculate load, torque, and correction factors. And they have built in baro and temp sensors, so they are just not a 'pre programmed' correction factor. They actually have a 'builder' calculator part of the program that can determain correction, based on where it is. And both of these dyno companies, can give you the numbers and graphs of what other large dyno campnies would read (mustang, dynojet, etc).

12.81@112mph is best time in this car. And that is on a 98deg F day at the track. And the class that I run in, requires a 10mile 'cruise' before making qualifing times. Called TruStreet.

<EMBED height=300 type=application/x-shockwave-flash width=400 src=http://www.facebook.com/v/112029695536950 allowfullscreen="true">

</EMBED>And I will say it again, the car is not done. And neither is the tune.

[10SecS4]

What do stock RS6s run at Bandimere?

[yokust]

14.0@100mph plus or minus a few tenths and mph based on ambient temp, car temp, etc. But 14.0 was consistant day times.

[JCviggen]

And they have built in baro and temp sensors, so they are just not a 'pre programmed' correction factor.

I only meant that STP "base" is a colder temperature and higher pressure than SAE or DIN correction. Everthing higher T/lower P than base sees a positive correction. I don't know if the exact math behind it differs, just the 14°F and pressure difference between STP and SAE makes for a 4% difference in the same atmospheric conditions. The dyno reads temp and barometric and then feeds that into the STP formula. Personally I'd rather have the raw numbers...knowing what the car would supposedly make at sea level is not all that relevant if you're a mile up 99% of the time.


And I will say it again, the car is not done. And neither is the tune.Looking forward to the end result, good luck!

[SteveKen]

And the class that I run in, requires a 10mile 'cruise' before making qualifing times. Called TruStreet.

OT, but I'm guessing that the police are foaming at the mouth when this happens. lol.

[DHall1]

Ohhh,

Such purdy graphs.


APR (93 Gas Mode) for comparison purposes...

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz195/MaxRS6/MaxBoost.jpg?t=1304194029

http://i827.photobucket.com/albums/zz195/MaxRS6/MaxGraph-1.jpg?t=1304194029

[yokust]

Personally I'd rather have the raw numbers...knowing what the car would supposedly make at sea level is not all that relevant if you're a mile up 99% of the time.

yeah I have gotten them from them before, but its a pain because they have to go into the software and change the options. But again its just numbers, the graphs should still look identical

[yokust]

OT, but I'm guessing that the police are foaming at the mouth when this happens. lol.

When there is 20+ cars, the cruise actually gets a police escort most of the time. And the reason I like it, is #1 its a 'heads up' class, and #2 because of the cruise and heads up feature you loose a bunch of the younger retards, and have some awesome actual street cars

[JCviggen]

yeah I have gotten them from them before, but its a pain because they have to go into the software and change the options. But again its just numbers, the graphs should still look identical

Agreed, for tuning purposes they may as well not put any numbers on the Y axis.

[MaxRS6]

Ohhh, ...Such purdy graphs.

The author emerges from hibernation...What say you??

[DHall1]

Pretty good thread. It could have ended up in a big pissin match but it did not. Glad for that. I do find the dyno graph from Yokust's car interesting and given its at 5k alt even more interesting. I would love to see a full 3rd gear Vagcom pull with 3,31,115 blocks.

And +1 on the trustreet heads up street class. Great fun. I raced 10.90 heads up Superstreet back in the day with a bigblock Camaro.....just something about the protree and heads up.


The author emerges from hibernation...What say you??

[yokust]

If it would have snowed today, I would have made that 3rd gear run for you. And I am sure I will be able to do it this week for sure.

Heads up is the only way to race. I may not be the fastest in the class(I did take home the fastest 13sec car award) last season, but it is a WHOLE lot more fun then bracket racing. I dont want to race some turd, who plays games and dials slower times, and rides the brakes soon as he passes you, or any other crap that goes along with it