Porsche now fully part of the VW empire: what does it mean for Audi?

[tailpipe]

As expected, VW's acquisition and integration of Porsche into its empire is now complete. Porsche will sit at the top of the tree to produce focused sports cars (plus the not-so-focused Cayenne, Cajun and Panamera ranges). Audi will be the premium brand. Volkswagen will be mainstream brand.

Bugatti, Bentley and Lamborghini will complement Porsche at the top end. Skoda will sit below VW at the value end. It could well be the end of the road for SEAT.

This collection of brands represents a formidable line-up of cars. But maintaining the individuality of each without creating unnecessary or unprofitable product overlap will not be easy. We've discussed this here in some detail.

When the merger first took place, many Audifans questioned what would happen to Audi, whether it would lose its cachet as Porsche became the jewel in the VW crown. While Dr Piech is chairman of VW and a family shareholder in Porsche, much of what Audi is today is thanks to his extraordinary ability and determination. If Audi is his child, he will not want to se it occupy a reduced position within the empire.

I wonder whether the time has now come to re-christen the enlarged group as 'Auto Union'?

[JavierNuvolari]

"Resistance is futile"
I have to agree with you about the end of the road for SEAT...sad really, perhaps that is the spot they want to fill with Alfa Romeo?

[Joker]

"Resistance is futile"
I have to agree with you about the end of the road for SEAT...sad really, perhaps that is the spot they want to fill with Alfa Romeo?

The unfortunate thing about SEAT is that it's exterior styling is truly exciting but then you open the door to a rather unexciting, nor inviting cockpit area with a dash that even KIA and Hyundai would turn their nose up at. Now Alfa Romeo would be a real feather in the cap for VAG, few brands mix styling and flair like it, if VAG got control and could turn around it's dire reliability but retain everything else it could quite easily sit along side Audi as a competitor.

[KresoF1]

As expected, VW's acquisition and integration of Porsche into its empire is now complete. Porsche will sit at the top of the tree to produce focused sports cars (plus the not-so-focused Cayenne, Cajun and Panamera ranges). Audi will be the premium brand. Volkswagen will be mainstream brand.

Bugatti, Bentley and Lamborghini will complement Porsche at the top end. Skoda will sit below VW at the value end. It could well be the end of the road for SEAT.

This collection of brands represents a formidable line-up of cars. But maintaining the individuality of each without creating unnecessary or unprofitable product overlap will not be easy. We've discussed this here in some detail.

When the merger first took place, many Audifans questioned what would happen to Audi, whether it would lose its cachet as Porsche became the jewel in the VW crown. While Dr Piech is chairman of VW and a family shareholder in Porsche, much of what Audi is today is thanks to his extraordinary ability and determination. If Audi is his child, he will not want to se it occupy a reduced position within the empire.

I wonder whether the time has now come to re-christen the enlarged group as 'Auto Union'?

Porsche took the development of sportscar in complete VAG. That is a done deal. German AMS and Auto Bild wrote about it about month ago in very long articles. All future sportcars in group will be developed by Porsche. There will be two sportcars segments-one is future Audi R5, Porsche Cayman/Boxster, Porsche 550 and VW Bluesport-all on same platform. Second is Porsche 992(yes, replacement for forthcoming 991, schedualed for 2017), Porsche V8 GT(mid engine!!!), Audi R8 and Lamborghini Gallardo-all will share the same platform which will be a modular one. So, there is a possiblility that 992 will be rear-mid engined while all others will be mid engined. Platform and suspension components will be more or less the same but, engines and gearboxes will be different due to application.
For example-V8 NA will be probalby the smallest engines, V6 biturbo and V8 biturbo will follow. Regarding position on the market next R8 will be placed where current R8 V10 is. Gallardo will be moved at least in 458/MP4-12C territory. Porsche V8 GT should be positioned even little bit above that.
Porsche will also develop platform that will be used by all future Bentley models and future Panamera and Audi A9.

[tailpipe]

Thanks very much for that Kreso, your German is obviously much better than mine (and most UK motoring journalists too because they only reported Porsche's leadership role in developing sports cars for the Group rather than specific details about new models and platforms as you have mentioned here).

The Porsche 992 and mid-engine V8 GT sound very interesting. When you refer to the 992 being rear mid engine, i presume you mean it will retain the current configuration, i.e. engine behind the rear axle, whereas the V8 GT will place it in the same place as a Ferrari 458? I wonder if a flat-8 will be developed to complement the new flat-4 for the Porsche 550 and existing flat-6s for the 911 and Boxter/ Cayman series? Such an engine would give any car using it a much lower centre of gravity to improve handling. While that would be good in a 992 or a GT car, it would also help the Panmaera and Cayenne. What i am most looking forward to seeing at Porsche is how VW gets a grip of its styling department.

Back to Audi. I think it can easily co-exist with Porsche. But I wonder what the future role of quattro Gmbh will be. I imagine little will change, but i tend to think that RS models need to become more mainstream products and to arrive sooner in the product cycle. We've debated this before here, but will Porsche help Audi by lending it tech and reducing development times or will fast Audis become more anodyne?

i don't know. In the short-term, we've probably only got two more model cycles before the entire established order of the car industry is upset by fuel cell automobiles. That will change everything. With all that cash VW is sitting on, I would be investing it in future technology rather than buying any more brands.

[Joker]

Porsche took the development of sportscar in complete VAG. That is a done deal. German AMS and Auto Bild wrote about it about month ago in very long articles. All future sportcars in group will be developed by Porsche. There will be two sportcars segments-one is future Audi R5, Porsche Cayman/Boxster, Porsche 550 and VW Bluesport-all on same platform. Second is Porsche 992(yes, replacement for forthcoming 991, schedualed for 2017), Porsche V8 GT(mid engine!!!), Audi R8 and Lamborghini Gallardo-all will share the same platform which will be a modular one. So, there is a possiblility that 992 will be rear-mid engined while all others will be mid engined. Platform and suspension components will be more or less the same but, engines and gearboxes will be different due to application.
For example-V8 NA will be probalby the smallest engines, V6 biturbo and V8 biturbo will follow. Regarding position on the market next R8 will be placed where current R8 V10 is. Gallardo will be moved at least in 458/MP4-12C territory. Porsche V8 GT should be positioned even little bit above that.
Porsche will also develop platform that will be used by all future Bentley models and future Panamera and Audi A9.

Porsche are the winner here from this merger, they have gained all the funds needed to develop not only future Boxster/Caymans but also the replacement 911s of the future and as a bonus the future Panamera is all be secured, of course the likes of Bentley, Lamborghini and Audi will all benefit from Porsche's expertise as well.

Can't wait to hear what engine choices will be on offer with the next 992 and this GT model, by the sounds of it the range of engines Porsche will produce will increase as well and no doubt be completely different from what the rest of the brands offer.

[rs-6]

Thanks for the Info Kreso! So if I understand it right the 992 will also be the first 911 which is based on a completely new platform, whereas in the past it was always a development based on the previous model? Can't wait for the GT model, will it be 918-ish? Or do you mean with GT more something like a 2-door Panamera with the engine in the rear?

[RXBG]

2017 is a long ways off. the 991 is not due till late this CY as a 2012 model. they'd redesign the entire platform for a 992 model just 4-5 years later????? sounds odd.

on paper it sounds like the models will be verydifferent (gallardo, 992, next R8) but i think they'll be very similar- esp. the gallardo and r8, with merely ecu chipping and different levels of weight saving materials to differentiate them.

[The Pretender]

I think there will be a bigger gab between the next Gen Gallardo and R8.
I believe the Lambo will keep V10 engine's (but most likely a 2 cylinder cut off V12) and the R8 will get a 4.0TFSI V8 (single turbo) as base model and 4.0TFSI V8 (bi-turbo) as a next step up.

[RXBG]

I think there will be a bigger gab between the next Gen Gallardo and R8.
I believe the Lambo will keep V10 engine's (but most likely a 2 cylinder cut off V12) and the R8 will get a 4.0TFSI V8 (single turbo) as base model and 4.0TFSI V8 (bi-turbo) as a next step up.

i would have thought the same thing too but the two cars share so much in the interest of cost sharing, and the more they share the better the business case they make. since they are both mid engine substantial platform differences would have to exist in order to provide cooling for a turbo engine in the middle. and it would cost waaaay too much to develop two platforms and chassis' to do that. also, a biturbo engine in the middle would need lots of cooling engineering. LOTS. this is hard to do and a reason why almost no production car (MP4 excepted) has such a set up in the rear mid engine. it is for this reason that i believe the latest info (i've heard) that the main differences between the current cars and the replacements (and between the two replacements themselves) will be in the use of lighter weight materials. the engine sounds like it is going to be RS5 vs RS4, in other words, mildly retuned. what will really change and allow the two cars to perform better than the outgoing ones is their weight. it is cheaper two produce different lighter body panels than it is to produce different engines with completely different cooling requirements and support systems. finally, a TT V8 would undoubtedly be super easy to tune... and would ironically... probably be more powerful than the updated V10 nee Aventador v12 minus two cylinders.

re: this topic. it would be interesting to know how different the aventador engine is from the outgoing murcielago engine, and in turn how related the V10 in the gallardo/r8 is to the murcielago engine.

imagine a current V10 with an ECU tune producing 590 hp and weighing 400 lbs less. that would be wicked.

[KresoF1]

re: this topic. it would be interesting to know how different the aventador engine is from the outgoing murcielago engine, and in turn how related the V10 in the gallardo/r8 is to the murcielago engine.

imagine a current V10 with an ECU tune producing 590 hp and weighing 400 lbs less. that would be wicked.

New Aventador engine is completely different engine then outgoing Murci engine. New V12 is 60 degrees V12 and bore/stroke are totally different then in Murci engine. It is mechanically smoother and is producing more power in complete rev range. At the same time torque is way better at low and mid rev range-that means even more responsive engine.

BTW, new V12 from Aventador can NOT be cut off to become V10. New V12 is classic 60 degrees angle V12 engine and for V10 usual angle is 90 degrees(or in some cases 56 degrees).
For new R8 and new Gallardo expect V6 biturbo, V8 NA and V8 biturbo engines. Current chances for V10 in any version are slim.

[Joker]

New Aventador engine is completely different engine then outgoing Murci engine. New V12 is 60 degrees V12 and bore/stroke are totally different then in Murci engine. It is mechanically smoother and is producing more power in complete rev range. At the same time torque is way better at low and mid rev range-that means even more responsive engine.

BTW, new V12 from Aventador can NOT be cut off to become V10. New V12 is classic 60 degrees angle V12 engine and for V10 usual angle is 90 degrees(or in some cases 56 degrees).
For new R8 and new Gallardo expect V6 biturbo, V8 NA and V8 biturbo engines. Current chances for V10 in any version are slim.

A Gallardo with a V6 biturbo, surely you're joking?

I would expect the R8 to be offered with such an engine so that it's present price point can be retain or better still improved upon but I wouldn't have expected the Gallardo to offer a model below that of it's rivals unless they intend to make the switch to a smaller capacity engin as well. Also why retain a V8 NA, would it not be more cost effective to develop one V8 engine but in two versions of FI like what Audi are about to offer in the rest of their cars?

Another thing why would they need to offer the Gallardo with three engine options, has Lamborghini ever done such a thing in past, you usually get only deifferent model options and over time special additions with either less weight, more power from same engine or different drivetrain but nothing else. If you are correct then this will be a first.

[RXBG]

i am only sure of one thing. whatever engine the new r8 and gallardo get they'll get the same one.

[KresoF1]

A Gallardo with a V6 biturbo, surely you're joking?

I would expect the R8 to be offered with such an engine so that it's present price point can be retain or better still improved upon but I wouldn't have expected the Gallardo to offer a model below that of it's rivals unless they intend to make the switch to a smaller capacity engin as well. Also why retain a V8 NA, would it not be more cost effective to develop one V8 engine but in two versions of FI like what Audi are about to offer in the rest of their cars?

Another thing why would they need to offer the Gallardo with three engine options, has Lamborghini ever done such a thing in past, you usually get only deifferent model options and over time special additions with either less weight, more power from same engine or different drivetrain but nothing else. If you are correct then this will be a first.

You need to read my post more carefully. I wrote engines for R8/Gallardo and I did not wrote 3 engines for Gallardo. Gallardo will be offered with single engine. R8 with at least two engines.

Next thing-look way beyond current Audi engine line-up... V8 NA will be sourced from Porsche. Most likely all three engines will be sourced from Porsche.
Development potential of new Porsche engines that are used in Panamera is huge. Imagine true dry sump, biturbo, high reving NA version etc.

[darkop]

New Aventador engine is completely different engine then outgoing Murci engine. New V12 is 60 degrees V12 and bore/stroke are totally different then in Murci engine. It is mechanically smoother and is producing more power in complete rev range. At the same time torque is way better at low and mid rev range-that means even more responsive engine.

BTW, new V12 from Aventador can NOT be cut off to become V10. New V12 is classic 60 degrees angle V12 engine and for V10 usual angle is 90 degrees(or in some cases 56 degrees).
For new R8 and new Gallardo expect V6 biturbo, V8 NA and V8 biturbo engines. Current chances for V10 in any version are slim.

BS. Gallardo and R8 keep n/a V10 with NO V8 option! There is no place for turbos in mid-engined cars! Use of lighter materials will be the differentiation!
AUDI SOURCED 4.0 V8 TFSI will be used on ''normal'' S and RS line models!
Follow these pages...

[Joker]

You need to read my post more carefully. I wrote engines for R8/Gallardo and I did not wrote 3 engines for Gallardo. Gallardo will be offered with single engine. R8 with at least two engines.

Next thing-look way beyond current Audi engine line-up... V8 NA will be sourced from Porsche. Most likely all three engines will be sourced from Porsche.
Development potential of new Porsche engines that are used in Panamera is huge. Imagine true dry sump, biturbo, high reving NA version etc.

Your post didn't make that clear so how else was I meant to interpret it. :vhmmm:

Are you saying that it's your opinion or you have hard evidence to suggest that the R8 and Gallardo will source their engines from Porsche, I find that hard to believe from a number of reasons not least the very fact that so they wanted a FI V8 engine then Audi have already a finished product in the form of the 4.0TFSI sitting that's quite capable of reaching the figures required to make the R8 and Gallardo competitive. Though if anything I would have felt that if they needed/wanted to retain an NA engine choice then why drop the V10 at all, the engine is not old and nor is it uncompetitive in terms of performance or emissions.

I don't have any reason to doubt what you are saying but on the other hand I don't have any reason why I should agree with you on this occasion.


BS. Gallardo and R8 keep n/a V10 with NO V8 option! There is no place for turbos in mid-engined cars! Use of lighter materials will be the differentiation!
AUDI SOURCED 4.0 V8 TFSI will be used on ''normal'' S and RS line models!
Follow these pages...

Quite right, I feel it's weight where the competitiveness of these two cars will come from more so that any engine change. The only thing I see different between the two is that the Gallardo will gain the same shell technology of the Avendator in it's entirety whilst the R8 will probably adopt some of it, thus allowing both to keep a healthy distance in terms of price and performance.

[tailpipe]

I wonder if the issue with delay of the new Audi 4.0 litre V8 is related to how to integrate it into Porsche's line-up?

It could end up in the Panamera, Cayenne, and GT V8; Audi S6, Q7, S7, A8, S8 and R8; Bentley Continental GT and Flying Spur. Personally, I believe Porsche should develop its own flat-8 engine, if a fast and frugal version of such an engine can be produced.

I don't think the Gallardo will use a V10 again nor a V8. instead, i think it will get a detuned version of the Aventador's V12. That's what I'd use to maximise ROI on that engine. it won't hurt the Aventador because only 4,000 units will be produced in total under current production plans.

[RXBG]

good discussion. i don't think the porsche v8 will be used in any current audi models soon to debut as their development took place way before porsche merging. by this i mean s6, s7, s8, rs6, rs7. r8 and gallardo as well. where we might see the porsche v8 is in the a9.

darkop- remember (as i stated in my post) the MP4 is mid rear with tt.

[darkop]

This all ''intel'' is based on Georg Karcher article in UK CAR mag, which is utter rubbish as always, since this guy has no clue lately about what's going on in VAG, where around 75% of all R&D is currently done by Audi!
Only recently Johan de Nysschen dismissed such claims about Porsche designing future Audi platforms as pure nonsense (interview available on YouTube)!
Best,
D

[tailpipe]

This all ''intel'' is based on Georg Karcher article in UK CAR mag, which is utter rubbish as always, since this guy has no clue lately about what's going on in VAG, where around 75% of all R&D is currently done by Audi!
Only recently Johan de Nysschen dismissed such claims about Porsche designing future Audi platforms as pure nonsense (interview available on YouTube)!
Best,
D

Actually it is based on Kreso quoting Auto Motor und Sport. That said, Georg Kacher did interview Michael Dick, head of R&D at Audi, in Car.

[Joker]

Designing chassis for two possibly three niche Audi is not the same as handing over all development work to Porsche, it is logical when there is a sharing of interests that one manufacturer does the developement work for a platform than each brand doing their own thing, especially when it's a niche product like a sportscar or supercar or even a high end executive car, it helps keep cost down to the minimum. But in no way is Porsche developing the chassis for mainstream Audis, Volkswagens, Seats or Skodas, they may well for their expertise in a consulting capacity but that will be as far as it goes.

I personally think it's nosense to believe that Audi will drop their development of large hi-performance engines in favour of Porsche supplying theirs to them and Lamborghini, it ain't going to happen.

[tailpipe]

Joker, i think you're absolutely right. if anything, Audi has become the most talented engine developer of any global manufacturer. Why would it abandon such a position? The answer is it won't.

My guess, and this is pure speculation, is that opposite is true. Audi's new 4.0 litre V8 engine may be so good that it has instantly trumped anything Porsche has in its own armoury in terms of output, torque, emissions and economy. So the question is how to use this engine within the Porsche empire as well as the upper echelons of the VW group. I mean how many different V8s do you need?

If it has now been decided that Porsche will use the new 4.0 litre unit, along with Bentley, perhaps it will see service in brands that command a higher price premium than Audi before it filters down to Audi's own products? Whatever, i am sure Porsche's entire engine strategy is being reviewed carefully by its new masters.

[KresoF1]

tailpipe,
New Audi 4.0 V8 is engine that WONT be used in any future Porsche model. Current new generation of Porsche V6/V8 engines used in Panamera is much more advanced design with much better further development potential. Decision is already made at upper level...

[roadrunner]

A sidenote on Mk. II R8 and Gallardo - both are way into development process, meaning that Porsche has minor if any influence on them.

The big impact of Porsche taking over the VAG sportcar plattform ownership will appear with Mk. III, not any earlier. And of cource with the Audi R4/R5

And because of that - the engine choices for the Mk. R8 / gallardo remain limited as well

[darkop]

Actually it is based on Kreso quoting Auto Motor und Sport. That said, Georg Kacher did interview Michael Dick, head of R&D at Audi, in Car.
So what was he, MD, saying in that interview? Do you have it? Could you post scans? I only saw the one where GK is talking about future of Porsches!
Also, AMuS has no big credibility as of late! They announced so many ridiculous things about Audi that in never came to life...

[tailpipe]

Darkop,

I'll look for the interview when I get home later. Georg Kacher was interviewing Michael Dick. (I remember him saying that Audi wouldn't commit to the Quattro Concept until they found a suitable platform for it and that they hadn't done so yet, despite using the A5's for the prototype.) All magazines get it wrong from time to time. In my experience, Car and AMuS get it wrong less often than others.

Kreso,

Thanks for that, but that isn't what i'm hearing. My understanding is that VW is having a big rethink on large capacity engines for the group, which is not to say that he's right! ;-) I think there is more going on behind the scenes than anyone wants to reveal or can find out.

Mercedes-Benz latest direct injection V8s are certainly impressive and, if you believe UK magazines, better than those of Porsche. The new CLS has had very positive reviews, especially the CLS63, which outpoints Porsche in a few areas.

[darkop]

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6316/vwgs.jpg

[Joker]

I reckon these hi-revving NA engine will remain exclusively the domain of the sports/supercar, they've run their course in the more normal performance saloon category which for the foreseeable future will see only FI engines to start with and possible hybrid there after. I'm looking forward to the future Audis, in fact future cars from all of it's rivals because the continued increasing of weight with each replacement looks to be gone for ever.

Who would have thought that the green party and tree huggers would be the saviour of the car enthusiast and their desire to improve emission would lead to better handling.

[darkop]

I reckon these hi-revving NA engine will remain exclusively the domain of the sports/supercar, they've run their course in the more normal performance saloon category which for the foreseeable future will see only FI engines to start with and possible hybrid there after. I'm looking forward to the future Audis, in fact future cars from all of it's rivals because the continued increasing of weight with each replacement looks to be gone for ever.

Who would have thought that the green party and tree huggers would be the saviour of the car enthusiast and their desire to improve emission would lead to better handling.
That was just in line and to confirm of what I had already said: all Lambos and R8 will stick to the n/a engines. Same as current but made more efficient for next generations. It's hard to say the same for Porsches as there are hundreds of different variations of their models and nobody in the world understands what's going on there!

[Joker]

Yeah, the Porsche 911 lineup covers a vast price and performance envelope compared to any other car, there competitors offer different models and even engine configurations to carry the sportscar up to supercar categories Porsche have done it with one car and basically one engine but in many variations.

I wonder how things will change now that Porsche has VW's funding to truly take on the might of Ferrari and McLaren.

[FSI_ooomph]

here's an article about the future sports car platforms for VAG. The 1st one is MQB(transverse, mid engine) and the 2nd is MSS(longitudinal, mid engine). I know it's dated oct. 24, 2010 but it's still an interesting read...

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publish/Features/printer_6323.shtml

[KresoF1]

Next Gallardo will be called Cabrera. Intro early 2013. 5.2 V10(fully updated) NA 570hp. Slightly bigger in exterior dimension and lighter in weight. Performance? Better then 458 Italia.
Next R8? Same engine with 550hp. Also marginally bigger then current R8. Also lighter in weight. For next R8 very sport S tronic for sure.

[tailpipe]

Wow, I thought V10 was dead after F1 abandoned it. What's your source Kreso?

[Joker]

Wow, I thought V10 was dead after F1 abandoned it. What's your source Kreso?

http://www.insideline.com/lamborghini/lamborghinis-future-revealed.html

Tailpipe, if you do a search the info has been known for a few weeks now.

[RXBG]

Next Gallardo will be called Cabrera. Intro early 2013. 5.2 V10(fully updated) NA 570hp. Slightly bigger in exterior dimension and lighter in weight. Performance? Better then 458 Italia.
Next R8? Same engine with 550hp. Also marginally bigger then current R8. Also lighter in weight. For next R8 very sport S tronic for sure.

sounds reasonable, except for what i have geard about the engine output. 550 hp vs 570 hp is laughable in difference (not referring to your post kreso). but of course the CF intensity will be different between the two models. i have heard more like 600 hp (with a bit less for the r8- but at least as much as the r8 gt currently has- i think something related to the intake manifold in the lambo configuration). but with big weight savings these twins are going to be ring beaters for sure. only the mclaren will be faster vs their peers.