no 4.0T in Geneva. Ingolstadt is burning.

[RXBG]

something serious is up at audi. new york is in april. could they have eschewed geneva for nyc to present the S6/S8/or S7? the new A3 is cute and all... but not a show stopper that audi needs. or have we become spoiled by audi?

[darkop]

yeah! I almost want to say: FK U AUDI!!!
Possibly we will see s8 in Shanghai and s7 in Frankfurt! New York has no chance though!

[tailpipe]

I can only imagine that not showing the 4.0 litre TFSI was a last-minute change of heart... prompted by record oil prices following the turmoil in Libya.

Whatever the reason, it is deeply disappointing. I suspect that all will be revealed come Frankfurt. But what happens if the Middle East revolution has moved along to Saudi Arabia, affecting the supply of oil from there?

[Joker]

I would say it has nothing to do with oil prices and everything to do with Bentley showing it's version of the same engine.

[darkop]

I would say it has nothing to do with oil prices and everything to do with Bentley showing it's version of the same engine.
I wouldn't understand this... Who gives a f for Bentley anyways! It's mainly Audi's engine and there's gonna be someone else to steal the show?! Just retarded...

[The Pretender]

I wouldn't understand this... Who gives a f for Bentley anyways! It's mainly Audi's engine and there's gonna be someone else to steal the show?! Just retarded...
Yes, and we will hear in lengths of day's (like with V10 being a Lambo engine) that Audi is using a 4.0TFSI V8 Bentley engine.
But i hope everybody knows AUDI is the "Crown Jewell" in the VAG concern.

[RXBG]

bentley didnt show any v8 engines. and at this point the oil price fiasco is pure excuses for not showing the engine. it is not ready. and that means something is wrong. we were thinking geneva was going to be a wicked show.

[The Pretender]

Apparently the engine have the same design as the BMW engine with the Turbo[s] on top in V of the engine.
It means the hole cylinder head design is the other way around.

[darkop]

bentley didnt show any v8 engines. and at this point the oil price fiasco is pure excuses for not showing the engine. it is not ready. and that means something is wrong. we were thinking geneva was going to be a wicked show.
I guess nothing is wrong since they still have time before this autumn production of both S7/8... Probably they decided that, presumably, S8 is more important at this moment to Chinese market so they postponed it till April only! Also BMW will showcase its M5 concept and Audi needs something to cover and steal that hype from them! It's only thing that us fans have got so inpatient and spoiled as we had been used to see a new model each month...
Still veeery pissed though!

[JavierNuvolari]

Apparently the engine have the same design as the BMW engine with the Turbo[s] on top in V of the engine.
It means the hole cylinder head design is the other way around.

Or...a maintance nightmare...

[tvrfan]

has audi or bentley devoplement the 4.0 TFSI???

[Zyklon5]

This RS5 all over again, lots of delays, presumptions and hype, and when the product comes at last it's just good, not nearly a revelation nor a revolution.

[tvrfan]

has audi or bentley devoplement the 4.0 TFSI???

anyone knows that???

[darkop]

anyone knows that???
Mostly Audi.. Like 95%.

[RXBG]

how about 99.999999%?

[Joker]

I'm sure Bentley did their bit in it's development though there's no denying that this is anything other than an Audi engine through and through.

[tailpipe]

So, after all the hype and it looks like the 4.0-litre V8 TFSI will finally be shown in Frankfurt. There were earlier reports of the S6 being launched in November-December 2011. I wonder if that means the S6 will be presented at Frankfurt or later? There are a lot of cars waiting for this engine: the Bentley Continental GT and Flying Spur, Audi S8, Audi R8, Audi S7 and Audi S6. I guess they'll get it in order of market importance. What is certain is that there will be trouble if it is a 'no show'.

I don't actually think this engine has been delayed. Audi's product roadmaps are pretty impressive. Whatever development issues have been encountered, Audi will have factored-in sufficient time to re-engineer any component technologies that are sub-optimal. i disagree that when it comes the 4.0-litre TFSI will be like the RS5.

Look at all the journalists who criticised the RS5; they've now acquired RS5s for their long term fleets and are singing its praises. A lot of people don't get RS cars. They think that all performance sedans are defined by the M3 and want go-kart handling - which is fine for a dry track 10 days a year. Audi has a more mature approach. People have criticised the RS3 for being uninvolving - the real issue is that most drives simply can't reach its limits on normal roads. The sheer integrity of the engineering gives RS cars a long term reliability and driver enjoyment that no other brand can match IMHO.

I think the 4.0 litre V8 will be the same. Audi's engines are just getting better and better:

2.0 litre TFSI L4 (EA888)
2.0 LITRE TDI L4
2.5 litre TFSI L5
3.0 litre TFSI V6
3.0 LITRE TDI V6

The 4.2 litre FSI V8 was described as one of the great engines when it first appeared in the B7 RS4. It is still epic in the RS5.

So, I wait patiently...

[darkop]

Agreed completely. It was the problem with us and our unrealistic expectations. A regular A7 has been only 6 months on the market and we complained about lack of S version, which would only take hardly a half % of global sales.
Audi didn't need a turbo V8 like others that early, as a regular 4.2 was fantastic engine for a long time that bested its competitors (even with their FI) on regular basis.

[Joker]

Emissions and consuption are the real reasons for the demies of the 4.2FSI. It is/was a great engine but the 2.5TFSI and 3.0TFSI have both shown it's shortcomings. I can only imagine how much better the 4.0TFSI will be when it finally arrives.

[tailpipe]

The idea of a V8 that develops 500-600 bhp plus while emitting less than 230-250 g/km of Co2 and returning 25-30 mpg is exciting to say the least.

Joker, you previously thought that this engine wouldn't appear in the A6. What do you think now? Maybe it'll be too good not to use.

[Joker]

The idea of a V8 that develops 500-600 bhp plus while emitting less than 230-250 g/km of Co2 and returning 25-30 mpg is exciting to say the least.

Joker, you previously thought that this engine wouldn't appear in the A6. What do you think now? Maybe it'll be too good not to use.

I never said it wouldn't appear in the A6, quite the opposite in fact. The 4.0TFSI will definitely show, but will only show as an S6 and will probably at least the same output as the last one if not a little bit more. All I did say is that Audi will only show it after the Bentley show it's version first.

[darkop]

I don't know on what do you base your ''output'' expectations, but the numbers have been revealed in last ETKA leaks and it was clearly stated 408ps for S6/7. What else do you need as a confirmation? We are only awaiting for an introduction date...
The previous numbers for C6 S6 were out of a ballpark and were proven to be out of target group for this class.

[Joker]

I do know what the ETKA leak said but I feel the gap between this and the S8's expected figures are too great. Either one is right and the other wrong because I can't believe Audi would allow this gap to happen. Also, unless they are deciding to reposition the pricing of the S6 against it's rivals because previously it was more expensive which was understandable given it produced more power but at 408ps then they will need to price it much more competitively.

[darkop]

Those figures can't be wrong.
S6 gets repositioned to be direct competitor to 550i, both power and price wise. New RS6 will fill the spot above S8 level and to fight against the M5 of course.
S8 won't have a bigger brother named RS8 so it needs to get a bigger gap to S6 but not as high as RS6, as it will be lower specced bi-turbo V8 (S6/7 -single turbo).

[Joker]

That was my point, the S6 would need a price readjustment to justify the drop in output, otherwise it wouldn't sell. Though I still believe that unofficially the output is closer to 435-440ps than the 408ps mentioned.

[tailpipe]

I wonder if the 408 is indeed a misprint, either unintentional or deliberate, especially since the 2.5-litre 5 cylinder engine develops 408 bhp in the S3 Sedan concept shown at Geneva in March? Perhaps it should have been 480 bhp?

[Joker]

I wonder if the 408 is indeed a misprint, either unintentional or deliberate, especially since the 2.5-litre 5 cylinder engine develops 408 bhp in the S3 Sedan concept shown at Geneva in March? Perhaps it should have been 480 bhp?

I would be surprised if it turned out to be this high but I do feel that making the S6 compete with the 550i and e550 will be a mistake, in general the S-Line competes with BMW's M/Sport and Mercedes' Sport versions, the S has always stood separate from these and in my opinion should remain so.

I stick by my guns in saying that the S6 will have 435-440hp, either officially or unofficially.

[darkop]

I would be surprised if it turned out to be this high but I do feel that making the S6 compete with the 550i and e550 will be a mistake, in general the S-Line competes with BMW's M/Sport and Mercedes' Sport versions, the S has always stood separate from these and in my opinion should remain so.

I stick by my guns in saying that the S6 will have 435-440hp, either officially or unofficially.

Wrong. RS lines compete with M/AMG. S lines used to be somewhere in the middle but they figured out it was mistake so they bring them down to be top of the ''normal'' lines to compete with 335i - S4/5, 550i - S6/7.

On the side note: seems like the new 3.0 bi turbo diesel gets introduced today with A6 Avant.
Great news.
http://auto.t-online.de/audi-a6-avant-erste-bilder-und-infos-vom-business-kombi/id_46405740/index

[Joker]

Wrong. RS lines compete with M/AMG. S lines used to be somewhere in the middle but they figured out it was mistake so they bring them down to be top of the ''normal'' lines to compete with 335i - S4/5, 550i - S6/7.

On the side note: seems like the new 3.0 bi turbo diesel gets introduced today with A6 Avant.
Great news.
http://auto.t-online.de/audi-a6-avant-erste-bilder-und-infos-vom-business-kombi/id_46405740/index

darkop,

In the UK we have the M/Sport version of BMW which is not to be confused with the M version, the M/Sport is the equivalent to Audi's S-Line. In the past the S model competed with the M and AMG, while the RS version was a level above both of them, this has now all changed with RS competing directly with M and AMG which has up until now left the S model in between the regular BMW and Merc models and their M and AMG performance versions with regards to the output it offers, i.e. 335i has 306hp and the S4 has 333hp. In my opinion this should continue, but that is only my opinion and I have no say in this matter one bit.

[darkop]

I don't remember RS lines being nothing more or less than true competitors to M in the past or present. S cars were a bit in no-man's land so they were hard to market. As you said, 408ps might not be a true figure, only official, but would be good enough to put competitors in their place. I don't know why they chose 408 and not 420ps as new A8 will get, but everything has a marketing reason. I guess they don't want to stress advantage on engines anymore and want to prove superiority in chassis design. Anyone can build strong engines with latest FI technology, but only few have got a talent to iron out the chassis balance.
Best
D

[Toto89]

It doesn't matter how much hp is labelled on an engine like this, 408, 350, 500, probably means the same engine but different control unit...These are high performance turbo engines, +-50hp is everywhere around, it's just about programming and marketing. 408 hp is absolutely believable for me, but you should remember that 3.0TFSI also have this with a MTM software. This will have at least 500 i think. Although i still think that this kind of performance/car/weight requires a diesel engine much more than anything else! Bring the TDI's here as soon as possible!

[RXBG]

i agree that audi will have to price the S6 very competitively, but not so much for engine output reasons as much as for overall market and model line competition. at least here in the US audi has no upper crust A6 model like they used to (2.7T and 4.2, then 3.0T and 4.2), just one. and if they add another it will be a 2.0T version with the 3.0T being the upper crust variant. on that note, here in the US the S models definitely compete with the upper crust models of the basic equivalent lines of merc and bmw- unlikea few years ago when S straddled the line between 335i and M3, for example. as such, currently the S4 competes with 335i and C350 (which now has about 310 hp). price wise the S6 has to fit in line with the 550i and E550. whether the new S6 has 408 or 430hp is not as important as the weight loss it should have supposedly undergone vs the old model and new A6. look at the C350- it makes less power than the S4 but it weighs about 200 lbs less. same with 335i.

going further- it is also possible that audi has delayed the 4.0T specifically because they wanted to optimize power or efficiency. rumor has it that the 2012.5 S4 (facelift) will make 350 hp but get better fuel economy than the current S4. they re-engineer these cars all the time. that being said, i don'tthink any such re-engineering led to some enormous power increase or breakthrough, but just an update so it would be as relevant as possible when it came out.

i agree that the RS6 will have to compete with the new M5 and E63. pricewise the S6 cannot be in that price-range.it wouldleave an enormous hole between A6 and S6. M5 and E63 easily push north of 90K. also- i would highly doubt there will be an RS8. the S8 will likely carry a detuned version of the new RS6's rumored high output biturbo 4.0T with maybe 500 hp.

this 4.0T may turn out to be one fascinating, very malleable engine- with many different configurations and equally varied personalities that, from the engineering and marketing standpoint, could potentially make the company a large net amount of profit. it had better for VW's sake.

...this engine will exist in one way or another from the A6 line all the way to the bentley line. and, according to a minority of people, maybe even in the next R8 and gallardo.

[chewym]

i agree that audi will have to price the S6 very competitively, but not so much for engine output reasons as much as for overall market and model line competition. at least here in the US audi has no upper crust A6 model like they used to (2.7T and 4.2, then 3.0T and 4.2), just one. and if they add another it will be a 2.0T version with the 3.0T being the upper crust variant. on that note, here in the US the S models definitely compete with the upper crust models of the basic equivalent lines of merc and bmw- unlikea few years ago when S straddled the line between 335i and M3, for example. as such, currently the S4 competes with 335i and C350 (which now has about 310 hp). price wise the S6 has to fit in line with the 550i and E550. whether the new S6 has 408 or 430hp is not as important as the weight loss it should have supposedly undergone vs the old model and new A6. look at the C350- it makes less power than the S4 but it weighs about 200 lbs less. same with 335i.

going further- it is also possible that audi has delayed the 4.0T specifically because they wanted to optimize power or efficiency. rumor has it that the 2012.5 S4 (facelift) will make 350 hp but get better fuel economy than the current S4. they re-engineer these cars all the time. that being said, i don'tthink any such re-engineering led to some enormous power increase or breakthrough, but just an update so it would be as relevant as possible when it came out.

i agree that the RS6 will have to compete with the new M5 and E63. pricewise the S6 cannot be in that price-range.it wouldleave an enormous hole between A6 and S6. M5 and E63 easily push north of 90K. also- i would highly doubt there will be an RS8. the S8 will likely carry a detuned version of the new RS6's rumored high output biturbo 4.0T with maybe 500 hp.

this 4.0T may turn out to be one fascinating, very malleable engine- with many different configurations and equally varied personalities that, from the engineering and marketing standpoint, could potentially make the company a large net amount of profit. it had better for VW's sake.

...this engine will exist in one way or another from the A6 line all the way to the bentley line. and, according to a minority of people, maybe even in the next R8 and gallardo.

It looks like the 4.0T might have taken longer to develop because it features cylinder on demand technology like in the new SLK 55 AMG and Chevy/Dodge pushrod engines (from what I understand it's harder to implement on DOHC engines). Price and performance wise I think the new S6 will be much like the S6, a little more expensive than the top non M/AMG BMW or Mercedes but with some additional performance as well.