Front Axle Seal Leak

[Ben74]

I'm having a problem that has reoccurred 3 times now in the past 10 months. I'm getting transmission fluid leaking from the right front (passenger side) of the vehicle. These are the notes from the first time it was fixed on 2/10/10:
Inspected the right front axle seal. Found seal was installed incorrectly. Replaced seal.

The problem happened again about a month ago and here are the notes from the fix on 12/17/10:
Material failure. Seal was leaking oil. Flanged shaft oil seal remove and reinstall.

I noticed today it is leaking in the same place again. Last time it was repaired, the service advisor said there could be a problem with the transmission (differential?). They tried to visually inspect the bearings without doing extensive work. They say the bearings look good. They say there is some play in a part of the transmission, but another Audi they looked at seemed to be the same. The next step is to take apart the transmission (I think) to visually inspect it. This could cost anywhere from $400 to over $1,000 depending on how much they need to take apart. I have a warranty, but the service advisor says it could be a problem if they take it all apart and don't find any wear/problems with the bearings. Then the warranty company will try to deny paying for replacing/fixing the transmission.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Has anyone heard of this problem before? I know absolutely nothing about cars, so I'm at the mercy of the service department and warranty company. Any advice or information from this group would be greatly appreciated! Thank you in advance!

Ben

[hahnmgh63]

First I've heard but I wonder how close they are checking that shaft end play? Is the expert mechanic determining it by feel or is he using a dial indicator?

[Ben74]

Thanks for the quick response! I'm not sure if it is by feel or a dial indicator. They say it is very tight and the seal needs to be put on perfectly. The first time they replaced it, sounds like they didn't have the exact tool to do it. This last time, they said they just got the tool and it should be put on perfectly now they have the correct tool. It's hard to know what to believe... Thanks again in advance for any help... it is much appreciated!!

Ben

[JSRS6]

What's your location? Any good indy shops near you?

[Ben74]

I'm in LaCrosse, WI... closest reputable shop is in Rochester, MN.
Otherwise I could go to the Twin Cities

[JSRS6]

I would get a second opinion. And get the readings from the tech on the shaft play.

[JSRS6]

Anybody, shouldn't there be a kind of lemon law on something like this? Not replacing the car, but if it happens so many times, shouldn't the next higher assembly automatically be replaced? Just thinking out loud. If one thing keeps going bad, the root cause should be found out and covered under warranty regardless.

[V8weight]

Ben, where are you taking the car in specific? The Audi dealer in Rochester is owned by Luther, and unfortunately they are clowns. The special tool that they were lacking? It's called a seal driver, every Tires Plus has them, and I'm not surprised that they did not. I don't think that any of your troubles are the result of an untraceable mystery failure, but rather multiple installation errors. Let me know if there's anything I can do, I'm about 2 Hrs. north of you.

[TozoM8]

I just replaced a TC on an RS6 last weekend and I've noticed it had some excessive play in the pass side front flange. It was not leaking, but I think it had more play than it should. You can shim the bearing's outer race just make sure you don't reduce the gap between the ring and pinion gear.

[dmross]

Wow, I can't believe this is on the main page - I just came here to search for the exact same issue. Mine has happened twice now. It's the front right (US pass side) axle seal. It's a slow constant leak, always some spots in the driveway, and depending on how I drive it ends up on the downpipe and stinks.

I just dropped the car off at the dealership to replace a torn CV boot on the other side and I made explicit mention of the leaking axle seal. I'll hear what they say about it later today.

[Ben74]

I've been taking the car to Park Place Motors in Rochester, MN. I'll maybe have to contact Carousel in Minneapolis and see what they say. It definitely causes a bad burning smell. That's how I first notice the problem. Thanks for all the info everyone!

Ben

[MORS6]

I just replaced a TC on an RS6 last weekend and I've noticed it had some excessive play in the pass side front flange. It was not leaking, but I think it had more play than it should. You can shim the bearing's outer race just make sure you don't reduce the gap between the ring and pinion gear.

Thanks for your time on my car last weekend. I highly recommend ACE Converter / Edge Racing for the TC rebuild and Gabor (TozoM8) for the install. I got to see first hand how big a job the TC replacement really is.

Should I have someone shim my bearing's outer race?
Did you get my email I sent Monday?

[Ben74]

I just replaced a TC on an RS6 last weekend and I've noticed it had some excessive play in the pass side front flange. It was not leaking, but I think it had more play than it should. You can shim the bearing's outer race just make sure you don't reduce the gap between the ring and pinion gear.

Are you saying that the play is normal/common? If that is the case, then it is most likely that the seal is not being installed correctly instead of some other bigger problem? Sounds like my best option is to take it somewhere else to be looked at, but I'm not looking forward to driving 2+ hours to get the car serviced properly, especially if I need to leave it there for more than a day.

Ben

[MaxRS6]

..but I'm not looking forward to driving 2+ hours to get the car serviced properly, especially if I need to leave it there for more than a day.

Been there done that and it is a pain. The distance makes it difficult to monitor extended repairs. A few times- I picked up the car just to be a short distance away when another issue developed and I had to leave the car after making the trip. Long distance repair relationships can be a pain in the a$$. However; it is obviously worth it for a qualifed tech- especially when the local guys have lost confidence.

[TozoM8]

Are you saying that the play is normal/common? If that is the case, then it is most likely that the seal is not being installed correctly instead of some other bigger problem? Sounds like my best option is to take it somewhere else to be looked at, but I'm not looking forward to driving 2+ hours to get the car serviced properly, especially if I need to leave it there for more than a day.
Ben

It should not have much play, but they all have it. That's why all ZF trans start to leak after 60K.

[JRS-RS6]

I've been taking the car to Park Place Motors in Rochester, MN. I'll maybe have to contact Carousel in Minneapolis and see what they say. It definitely causes a bad burning smell. That's how I first notice the problem. Thanks for all the info everyone!

Ben

I had the same issue and it was fixed the first time at Carousel under warranty along with a couple other things. If Park Place can't fix it right either than I would say take Pat up on is offer to help.

[Hy Octane]

Mine did this at around 20k on an Audi drive event. Started dripping onto the exhaust and smoking while up in the mountains..Man does that fluid stink when burning..
Limped home but had to miss the rest of the drive.
New tranny has 12k on it and has suffered from a really hard 'klunk' when downshifting from 5th to 4th and a hesitation into 4th from 3rd since it was installed. Problem is it wont do it every time .. kinda does it when it wants to, and of course, it wont do it for the techs.
Its always something with this car..

[dmross]

Picked my car up from the dealer last night. Axle seal replaced, covered by my shiny Fidelity warranty (- deductable).

When I pulled out this morning I stopped and checked for any leaks where it had sat all night. Bone dry. No more smell either. :)

[Ben74]

Just an update. Took the car to Carousel in Minneapolis. They couldn't find anything wrong except for the seal, so they just replaced it. Their best guess is that it wasn't installed correctly previous times. I guess I'll hope that the problem is finally fixed this time.

Ben

[SAF]

I posted about this same issue (http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/21696-Right-Front-drip.?highlight=) on my car back in October. Turned out to be the right front dif seal. Repair is holding so far.

[Ben74]

Another update. Less than a week after bringing the car home, it is leaking again. Same problem. I'll be taking it back to Minneapolis on Saturday and leaving it there for a week for them to do more troubleshooting. I'm nervous about how much it is going to cost doing trial and error with this car, especially if the warranty company won't cover things because their auditor says there isn't a visible problem. The seal has been replaced 4 times now over the past two years by 3 different shops, each saying the previous shop didn't do it correctly and nothing else appears to be wrong. It only seems to happen in the cold weather. I've been through two summers without any problems. Carousel in Minneapolis is treating me well and I'm hopeful they will be able to find the root problem next week. Any additional tips/advice/thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Thanks to everyone who has replied so far!

Ben

[SteveKen]

Here's a pic of my S6s transmission.

http://www.kendrish.com/galleries/S6/build/slushbox.JPG

I initially thought all the mess was from a bad inner CV boot. Indeed, it was at the flange seal and I have a tremendous amount of runout/play in the flange.

I bought a seal for the flange, but am sure it's not the seal and is internal. I have yet to open it up and take a look yet.

I'm guessing it's a bearing or an outer race housing? If you look in ETKA, the bearing is sold as a set that includes the flange, which is about $200. Maybe it's just that bearing. I've had my flange out and the bearing surface looks good. Maybe the bearing can be sourced VIA tier 3 supplier and the flange won't have to be bought.

I'll keep you all posted since I intend to fix the problem and sell the trans.

[Ben74]

Thanks for the info and pic, SteveKen. I'm worried that the shop will take apart the transmission and want to replace the bearing and flange, but the warranty company will say the bearing looks fine and therefore refuse to cover the cost, which could easily be over $1,000 with the labor involved.

Ben

[Hy Octane]

Your parts/repair is covered for 12 months.. so if it leaks a few weeks after they fixed it, its on them.. improper repair or part failure is not your responsibility.

[TozoM8]

The seal failed because of the excessive run-out. They will have to shim the bearing, it won't be covered under warranty.

[terrytcl]

TC failure, axle seal failure, tranny failure = all the more reason to go with the 01E

:)

[SteveKen]

TC failure, axle seal failure, tranny failure = all the more reason to go with the 01E

:)

Amen, sir.

[SteveKen]

Little bit of an update on this.

I removed the diff cover and realized that the runout/play is a result of the entire differential being loose. The flange fitment into the diff itself is good.

The outer race of the tapered roller bearing on the case cover side of he differential is spalled a bit and I'm pretty sure that a shim is missing. I'll have to double check to make sure that it's not stuck and hiding in there.

The outer race of the bearing on the inner side of the differential looks pretty good. The shim is present on this side.

The bearings are readily available VIA the Timken and SKF P/N's and not too expensive. I'm not sure what the VAG P/N's are for the shims, since my copy of ETKA is acting up and VAG-CAT is down.

I'll keep you all posted.

[SteveKen]

Another update. I do have a shim on the outer side of the diff as well.

I'm going to replace both of the bearing assemblies (not just outer races). Hopefully I can find someone that can remove them from the OD of the diff.

Then I'll see if that fixes the runout. If not, I'll have to look into a thicker shim for the outer one. Maybe I'll consult with Gabor on this. Lurking??

I would think that the bearings are the culprit. I can't imagine what else would cause the runout? Unless they were improperly shimmed during assembly . . .

[TozoM8]

The question is how much play it had when the car left the factory? It could be the aluminum case deformed under torque.