All my new toys

[yokust]

So last week had a little fun with some new toys and prettied up the engine bay

Installed:

Bosch Motorsport '044' Pump
Bosch Motorsport 5bar Regulator
Phenolic Intake Manifold Spacers (Custom Built by EvoTuning)
Snow Performance Water/Meth Kit w/Dual Noazzle Upgrade

So started with this:
10388
Did some playing with powder coating and got this:


10392
103911038910390

[V8weight]

Looks great, you've been busy! How did the intake spacers work out? Don't they mess up the front charge pipe mounting locations?

[yokust]

I have run these spacers on both my cars, have to cut off outer mounts on the front bi-pipe, but no different than running them on a 2.7t with apr pipe or rs4 setup. never had any problems for the 10k miles I had them on my previous car.

They work great, keep intake manifold at a much steadier temps, longer time of intake temps getting high, and cools down alot faster.

And BTW I do have 6 more sets available. I had to have 10 sets made on custom order
10393

[V8weight]

Hmm, I may have to look you up next time I have my lock support off. I saw that you had these listed on Audizine a while back, but was worried about the mounting issues with the charge pipe. I'm still weary of the pipe being fastened with only 2 bolts, but reducing the IAT's does sound attractive.

[yokust]

The Bi-pipe is a pretty beefy item, and plus these cars do not run very much boost compared to big turbo 2.7's that I have built that run only having 2-3 bolts depending on which bi-pipe that is on there.

But to tell you honestly, I have never had these on there with stock intake, so have to remember its going to go up 1/4" as well

[MaxRS6]

Nice toys and thanks for sharing your handiwork.

[melsas]

VERY nice.
I suppose you are running an aftermarket or custom tune?

Please consider posting a write up for the Snow install.

[yokust]

I have APR ECU/TCU on this car

And Snow install is pretty basic, nothing honestly different than what the instructions show other than where I put the pump/solenoid.

And BTW the pump brackets and solenoid brackets are made by Apikol

[V8weight]

Do you happen to know the thread size for the nozzles? I'm thinking about drilling and tapping my charge pipe the next time I have it off, and plugging the holes, in case I decide to add meth injection down the road.

[yokust]

Every kit that I have used uses 1/8"npt nozzles

[melsas]

So the APR tune seems to fully utilize the additional performance provided by the Bosch 0044 fuel pump & 5 bar regulator?
Were you able to adjust the tune for these parts?

[yokust]

The '044' pump was put on due to my pump was having issues. On both my cars the connection of the fuel pump the ground side terminal was burned, and caused from the power side terminal had come unsoldered under the plastic and causing high resistance. I am sure this is actually the cause of all the fuel pump failures people have had on these cars.

I was chasing a wierd issue when car was very hot during track events the car would randomly overboost or sputter. And from measuring resistance across the pump terminals, the fuel pump was basicly only receiving about 11-12 volts while the car was producing 14 volts at the connector due to melted terminals.

So basicly the car was running lean while under full boost, causing the ecu to cut boost to match fueling and causing the car to "freak the F__K out"

Putting a larger pump on will not effect anything but a better flow of fuel and constant pressure.

The reason for putting the 5bar regulator was also for fueling. While trying to hunt down weird issue was noticing during track events while logging that duty cycle on injectors was pretty high. So by adding more fuel pressure the motronic ecu will adapt and begin lowering the duty cycle to match the added fuel it sees out of the tailpipe. So bringing the injectors back into a more happy duty cycle with more available when starts to get hot and needs extra fuel to prevent knock.

Also the motorsport 5bar regulator has a larger return outlet of the regulator, allowing the pump to have less stress and allow the fuel to circulate more. Which in our cars with as much heat issues as we have, keeping fuel temps down also which helps with fuel preignition

[JRS-RS6]

The '044' pump was put on due to my pump was having issues. On both my cars the connection of the fuel pump the ground side terminal was burned, and caused from the power side terminal had come unsoldered under the plastic and causing high resistance. I am sure this is actually the cause of all the fuel pump failures people have had on these cars.

I was chasing a wierd issue when car was very hot during track events the car would randomly overboost or sputter. And from measuring resistance across the pump terminals, the fuel pump was basicly only receiving about 11-12 volts while the car was producing 14 volts at the connector due to melted terminals.

So basicly the car was running lean while under full boost, causing the ecu to cut boost to match fueling and causing the car to "freak the F__K out"

Putting a larger pump on will not effect anything but a better flow of fuel and constant pressure.

The reason for putting the 5bar regulator was also for fueling. While trying to hunt down weird issue was noticing during track events while logging that duty cycle on injectors was pretty high. So by adding more fuel pressure the motronic ecu will adapt and begin lowering the duty cycle to match the added fuel it sees out of the tailpipe. So bringing the injectors back into a more happy duty cycle with more available when starts to get hot and needs extra fuel to prevent knock.

Also the motorsport 5bar regulator has a larger return outlet of the regulator, allowing the pump to have less stress and allow the fuel to circulate more. Which in our cars with as much heat issues as we have, keeping fuel temps down also which helps with fuel preignition

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing this. Caused over boosting that might could lead to limp mode. Hmmm................ I hope a couple people have DVMs and know how to use them.

[arS6]

Did you buy the Snow Performance meth kit from Apikol? Did it come with the mounting brackets or did you have to buy the brackets separately?

[yokust]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing this. Caused over boosting that might could lead to limp mode. Hmmm................ I hope a couple people have DVMs and know how to use them.

Well other than just looking inside the connector of the pump and looking for the burned ground side is all you can do. Once I found it, since the pump was crap anyways, I cut the palstic top off to investigate and find everything.

I will try to take some pictures for reference if anyone wants some

[yokust]

Did you buy the Snow Performance meth kit from Apikol? Did it come with the mounting brackets or did you have to buy the brackets separately?

The brackets are separate items that Apikol makes for installing Snow Performance parts, since the kits are very generic and you would have to make all your own brackets.

[V8weight]

What would be considered a high injector duty cycle? I seem to remember that our cars only run about 75% stock. I've never looged this, I'll have to make a few runs tonight.

[yokust]

Injectors happy point is 75-85%

This is the rule when building large turbo setups.

I saw acouple times of up around 89-90%, which means injectors are near maxed out and can over heat from been held open too long without closed time to cool back down.

The high impedance(saturated) injectors that all VAG cars are not as capable of being run at high duty cycles like the low impedance(peak and hold) injectors. Thats why when running standalone injection (034, motech, etc) almost always rec running low imp injectors

[yokust]

So here are some crappy broken iphone pics.

First one is the fuel pump connector that I cut off to investigate after finding the ground terminal burned. Both pumps I have from both vehicle are like this.

Second is just the OEM pump and 044

Third is showing the Motorsports 5bar regulator, it is the bottom one, with the obvious massive hole for return fuel

104021040110400

[snoopra]

In the second pic, did you add a check valve on the outlet?

[arS6]

What would be considered a high injector duty cycle? I seem to remember that our cars only run about 75% stock. I've never looged this, I'll have to make a few runs tonight.

Can you give me some instructions on how to check the injector duty cycle? I have a VAG here. I like to see what my injectors are at with a MTM tune. THx

[SteveKen]

BTW, aren't there two fuel pumps on the RS6?

[V8weight]

Can you give me some instructions on how to check the injector duty cycle? I have a VAG here. I like to see what my injectors are at with a MTM tune. THx
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no way to actually log injector duty cycle on the Vag-com. You have to log block 101, which gives injector duration. You then use the following formula to calculate injector duty cycle. Duty Cycle = injector pulse width * RPM / 120000. If I'm right, I'm running a duty cycle of 93.99% . Crap

[DHall1]

As the RS6 drama continues...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHD_53UqBeA

[MaxRS6]

I'll send you some mo meds Dave...;0

[DHall1]

I need em after my 84 today.

Friggin overseeding season...the grass is as long as lady gaga's skirts or the hair on her armpits. Hit the ball in the first cut and you cant find it....the greens have more peach fuzz than 16yr/old in high school.

Sitting two on a par 4 over the water and back pin placement. Priceless

http://i1039.photobucket.com/albums/a476/drh11/RS6com%20resize/golfshot.jpg

[MaxRS6]

Nice shot! ..Always good to get it back to the pin..00

[V8weight]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no way to actually log injector duty cycle on the Vag-com. You have to log block 101, which gives injector duration. You then use the following formula to calculate injector duty cycle. Duty Cycle = injector pulse width * RPM / 120000. If I'm right, I'm running a duty cycle of 93.99% . Crap
Can anyone confirm this formula for duty cycle?

[JSRS6]

Try this:
Idc = (ipw(in ms) * rpm)/ 1200

[V8weight]

Try this:
Idc = (ipw(in ms) * rpm)/ 1200
Same thing, just moves the decimal over two places. :) I have confirmed with my local EPL tuner that this is the corrrect equation for converting injector pulse width to injector duty cycle, and the there is no injector duty cycle measuring block on the vag. He said it was not uncommon for tuned cars to run 100%, and advised me not to switch to the 5 bar regulator that I just happen to have sitting on the shelf. Hmm

[melsas]

So the 5 bar wil not lower the duty cycle? (I'm in way over my head here!)

[V8weight]

So the 5 bar wil not lower the duty cycle? (I'm in way over my head here!)
It will definitely lower the duty cycle of the injectors, its just a matter of whether the ecu can lower the duty cycle enough to keep the car from running too rich. I'm sure that it would bring the IDC down perfectly at WOT, but it may not be able to dial the DC back enough under partial throttle conditions.

[DHall1]

Dont do it. Dont touch that 5bar.

Do you feel lucky?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daFb3J-cwLg&feature=related

[MaxRS6]

Or there is always this classic

I wish you had more time...;0

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[yokust]

In the second pic, did you add a check valve on the outlet?

Yes, otherwise the car can have extended cranking time while the vehicle builds fuel pressure again to start. The stock pump has an internal check valve to hold residual pressure

[yokust]

It will definitely lower the duty cycle of the injectors, its just a matter of whether the ecu can lower the duty cycle enough to keep the car from running too rich. I'm sure that it would bring the IDC down perfectly at WOT, but it may not be able to dial the DC back enough under partial throttle conditions.

It lowered my duty cycle, and when checking fuel trim values are the same as before.

Car noticeably has better tip in response and pulls a lot stronger it top end

[DHall1]

At what point does the RS6 ecu depart from closed to open loop?

Is it load based, maf or some combo of both?

It does make sense that adding the 5 bar and bigger fuel pump will make little difference in closed loop conditions becuase the fuel demand is the same and the pressure is really the same. The added boost in fuel comes when the boost pressure increases and the 5bar applies additional fuel pressure/volume.

If the ecu has already gone into open loop and using maf/rpm tables to deliver fuel then the 5bar/pump mod is letting the engine have it when the demands are there only.

Interesting.

[JRS-RS6]

It lowered my duty cycle, and when checking fuel trim values are the same as before.

Car noticeably has better tip in response and pulls a lot stronger it top end

Can you provide some kind of numbers or VAG-COM Logs? This Topic is relevant to several people including myself.

[V8weight]

I threw my 5 bar regulator in this evening and went out and logged the car. Initially I was pleased to see that I was still running a steady .86 volts on my lambdas, and my injector duty cycle dropped to around 85% at full boost. However, my long term fuel trim is now at -7.0%. That's fairly rich. I'll leave it in for a few more days and see if it adapts a bit more and brings the fuel trims down, but I still think this regulator is best accompanied by the proper fuel mapping. I have to admit though, right or wrong, the car does feel better on off idle response and smoother during acceleration.

[DHall1]

So my question still stands. What is the trigger on our ECU to go in open loop?

From the -7% that says the fuel is coming on too soon and the ECU is still in closed loop and pulling fuel out.

[yokust]

I know the ecu goes open loop above 3/4 throttle input, cold coolant temps, and cold cat converter temps are the big inputs. And I believe anything above a certain amount of boost pressure, even if at 1/2 throttle.

[yokust]

Can you provide some kind of numbers or VAG-COM Logs? This Topic is relevant to several people including myself.

Block value 032 are your fuel trims. The ecu's goal is to both short term and long term within 5%

[arS6]

So last week had a little fun with some new toys and prettied up the engine bay

Installed:

Bosch Motorsport '044' Pump
Bosch Motorsport 5bar Regulator
Phenolic Intake Manifold Spacers (Custom Built by EvoTuning)
Snow Performance Water/Meth Kit w/Dual Noazzle Upgrade

So started with this:
10388
Did some playing with powder coating and got this:


10392
103911038910390


Yokust - did you tap the bi-pipe while it was still on the car or did you remove it then tapped it?

I'm going to tap it at the same location but am afraid of the metal shaving going into the throttle. Removing the bi-pipe is a PIA.

[JSRS6]

Yokust - did you tap the bi-pipe while it was still on the car or did you remove it then tapped it?

I'm going to tap it at the same location but am afraid of the metal shaving going into the throttle. Removing the bi-pipe is a PIA.

I'm going with no.

[snoopra]

OK, looking at the pics I noticed the R1 DV's are in backwards(pic with meth nozzles), or can they be installed either way?

[yokust]

Yokust - did you tap the bi-pipe while it was still on the car or did you remove it then tapped it?

I'm going to tap it at the same location but am afraid of the metal shaving going into the throttle. Removing the bi-pipe is a PIA.

That is a big NO

Metal shavings would not only be bad for the motor, but when the turbo is spinning at 14000+ rpms and a peice touches it the blades will get damaged.

[yokust]

OK, looking at the pics I noticed the R1 DV's are in backwards(pic with meth nozzles), or can they be installed either way?

Yes I run my valves the Correct way backwards from normal.

The valves can hold more boost that way. Even stock 710 bosch valves will hold about double the amount of boost before they start to leak.

If you find alot of the factory racecars, they run these valves in this direction.

And another perk of being in my job is I get to talk to alot of the engineers that come into town because the high altitude testing is done here. The reason the valves are run in the position they come in is for noise. If you flip the valves and run them in this postion you can get a much more noticable bypass noise.

[snoopra]

Good info yokust, I'll try running mine reversed and see how it runs. Do you still hear the "mowing" sound from the R1's?

[yokust]

The noise changes for sure not really sure how to describe it.

But it is not the same noise because the air is not getting pushed by the diaghram in the same direction so it does not have the same open position

[V8weight]

The noise changes for sure not really sure how to describe it.

But it is not the same noise because the air is not getting pushed by the diaghram in the same direction so it does not have the same open position
Would this have the same effect on piston type valves? I would imagine it would be the same, it would keep boost pressure from pushing up on the bottom of the piston.

[arS6]

That is a big NO

Metal shavings would not only be bad for the motor, but when the turbo is spinning at 14000+ rpms and a peice touches it the blades will get damaged.


Okay I got the front radiator support loose and the top is about 5-6 inches away from the bi-pipes. THere's just enough room for me to work and remove the bi-pipes. I just can't see the bolts that are holding the bi-pipes in place. Do you recall what type and size bolts are holding the bi-pipes to the throttle body? They are recessed and there's 2 of them. I can't see them. Any other bolts holding the bi-pipes?

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0cf29b3127ccefbc553da929f00000030O08IYsXDdm5ag9 vPgA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[arS6]

I think I found it! 2 X Allen M6 correct? Any other bolts holding it?

[yokust]

Would this have the same effect on piston type valves? I would imagine it would be the same, it would keep boost pressure from pushing up on the bottom of the piston.


Yes it works the same on piston valves as well. Because the "stock" direction of flow puts the air pressure against the side of the diaphram or piston depends on valve type and actually pushes them open sideways

When the valve is flipped from stock direction it forces air pressure to just over come spring pressure and the valve is not able to be pushed open

[yokust]

I think I found it! 2 X Allen M6 correct? Any other bolts holding it?

The two holes in the picture you have posted are M5 allens, and there are two others on the outside of the pipe by the cyl heads that one each of my cars were different bolts, 10mm or 5mm allen

[V8weight]

I think I found it! 2 X Allen M6 correct? Any other bolts holding it?
Yep, there is also one M6 allen (or 10mm nut depending on the build date) holding each side of the charge pipe to brackets off the side of the cylinder heads.


EDIT: oops, Yokust beat me to it. What he said.

[arS6]

Yep, there is also one M6 allen (or 10mm nut depending on the build date) holding each side of the charge pipe to brackets off the side of the cylinder heads.


EDIT: oops, Yokust beat me to it. What he said.


FOund it! Thanks. I have the version with the allen bolts coming from the back to the front. I'm GUESSING I have the version with the 10mm nuts holding the charge pipe brackets to these 2 allen bolts. Some ass wipe didn't even bother with the 10mm nuts. All this time I'm feeling for them blindly and I couldn't find them! So I finally remove the headlights and was able to see that they were missing. The bracket holes weren't even sitting in the allen bolts!

I'm not the original owner but the car was always serviced at the stealer...enough said.

Now I just gotta get some long allen sockets. Off to AutoZone.

[yokust]

Easy buddy I work at those "stealers" you joke about

[arS6]

Easy buddy I work at those "stealers" you joke about

Opps...sorry no offense meant to you personally but I don't have good experiences visiting the dealer. Maybe it's just the one I go to or maybe it's all the ones in/around NYC. I feel like it's all about flipping cars at the service dept. Once the car is in, get them back out asap. Every time I go, I come home with missing bolts/nuts. The last time I was there, I came home missing the 4 torx bolts that hold the top radiator support to the frame, 2 bolts that hold the power steering reservoir, EGT senders were bolted to the firewall with the wrong bolt and spacer (they used a manifold nut as a spacer), oil cooler air dam was left unbolted sliding around behind the bumper, Oil cooler support brackets were missing, and missing one nut per side from where the bumper attaches to the fender...all from one visit.

Anyway..back to the topic.

[JRS-RS6]

Opps...sorry no offense meant to you personally but I don't have good experiences visiting the dealer. Maybe it's just the one I go to or maybe it's all the ones in/around NYC. I feel like it's all about flipping cars at the service dept. Once the car is in, get them back out asap. Every time I go, I come home with missing bolts/nuts. The last time I was there, I came home missing the 4 torx bolts that hold the top radiator support to the frame, 2 bolts that hold the power steering reservoir, EGT senders were bolted to the firewall with the wrong bolt and spacer (they used a manifold nut as a spacer), oil cooler air dam was left unbolted sliding around behind the bumper, Oil cooler support brackets were missing, and missing one nut per side from where the bumper attaches to the fender...all from one visit.

Anyway..back to the topic.

Aren't those items in the tech bulletin for weight reduction?

[arS6]

Finally got the charge pipe off. Guess what. There was only ONE allen bolt holding it onto the throttle body. I guess more weight reduction.

[PALETTE]

Just wanted to ask how you found the Meth on this project?

[cmore]

@yokust - can you give us your impressions of your meth install? What kind of performance gains did you notice? What are you filling up the tank with?

Where you mounted the nozzles, is that where it is commended? Why did you choose Snow over DevilsOwn?

Thanks,
Chris

[yokust]

Honestly there are no real differences between the meth kit companies. Almost all exact same parts, just relabled.

Snow is a local company, my good friend tunes the owners mustangs, and buddy who owns Apikol is a dealer. So I get a screaming deal, and since they are local it is a bonus in my eyes.

I use a 50/50 mix of washer fluid concentrate/water mix. Which is almsot the exact mix of the meth/alcohol they sell on there site(I get the concentrate free at work)

The nozzle location is a standard recomended location. You want the nozzles close to the t-body so the water/meth stays atomized in the air mixture and does not have time to collect and puddle.

[V8weight]

Yokust, I have a couple of quick questions while I caught you online. The Apikol intercoolers utilize the factory auxiliary radiators and shrouds correct? How was the fitment of the shrouds? Also, I had to remove all of my PCV hoses this weekend, and noticed a lot of condensation/ yellow puss in the lines. I would assume this is fairly normal? I removed every last piece of tubing and all of the valves and cleaned them, I'm just wondering if this is the result of a greater problem. It's probably just related to the fact that the car goes from the heated garage, to sitting in the lot all day, then back to the garage.

[yokust]

Yes the Apikol intercoolers use stock shrouds and coolers. The Rear shroud just uses the fender liner to hold it up just fine(there are 7 torx screws each side), and front shroud I just screwed it into the rad support with two torx screws. Which actually makes it easier when pulling front end because the shroud is attached to it rather then the four small phillips screws on the cooler itslef.

I pitched the extra rads on both sides in the dumpster. I do not want 200 deg rads bolted to the intercoolers trying to drop those temps down. Both cars I have ditched the coolers and had ZERO problems with drag or tracking the cars. Temps stayed exactly the same.

The breather/PCv system is quite normall. Its because these cars do not really have a good breather system, that all the muck builds up in the lines(same as 1.8t or 2.7t motors). Adding PROPER catch cans that actaully filter the sytem help alot, I have not done it to mine, but is up on my list.

Next is Turbos, Wastegates, and Custom Ace covnertor

[4everRS]

I used to get the foam/puss in the 327 in my '64 chevy. Got better breathers in my valve covers and it was improved quite a bit, but still there.

[V8weight]

I used to get the foam/puss in the 327 in my '64 chevy. Got better breathers in my valve covers and it was improved quite a bit, but still there.
I'm still running a PCV valve on my El Camino, I didn't like the breathers expelling oil mist on the valve covers. Hmm, maybe it's time to stick some breather valves on the 6. The main issue I have with the pcv system on the RS6 is that it's too damn elaborate. There's too much tubing to collect condensation, and there's too many valves to fail/freeze.

[4everRS]

Time to start contemplating catch can ideas?
I'm still running a PCV valve on my El Camino, I didn't like the breathers expelling oil mist on the valve covers. Hmm, maybe it's time to stick some breather valves on the 6. The main issue I have with the pcv system on the RS6 is that it's too damn elaborate. There's too much tubing to collect condensation, and there's too many valves to fail/freeze.

[PALETTE]

Honestly there are no real differences between the meth kit companies. Almost all exact same parts, just relabled.

Snow is a local company, my good friend tunes the owners mustangs, and buddy who owns Apikol is a dealer. So I get a screaming deal, and since they are local it is a bonus in my eyes.

I use a 50/50 mix of washer fluid concentrate/water mix. Which is almsot the exact mix of the meth/alcohol they sell on there site(I get the concentrate free at work)

The nozzle location is a standard recomended location. You want the nozzles close to the t-body so the water/meth stays atomized in the air mixture and does not have time to collect and puddle.


Did you notice any gains with this at all?

[yokust]

I'm still running a PCV valve on my El Camino, I didn't like the breathers expelling oil mist on the valve covers. Hmm, maybe it's time to stick some breather valves on the 6. The main issue I have with the pcv system on the RS6 is that it's too damn elaborate. There's too much tubing to collect condensation, and there's too many valves to fail/freeze.

I would not just vent my cars either.

I would run catch cans with keeping the stock pcv valves and plumb the breather out lines back in the intake. So that the catch can catches all the mucky garbage and not sent back into the intake system.

The muck and crap from the breather is what build up on the backside of the intake valves and causes carb build up

[yokust]

Did you notice any gains with this at all?

Lower intake temps, means more available timing curves, and the little extra from meth/alcohol in the system.

We will see soon when I slap it back on the dyno, before I do turbos and torque converter

[PALETTE]

I would not just vent my cars either.

I would run catch cans with keeping the stock pcv valves and plumb the breather out lines back in the intake. So that the catch can catches all the mucky garbage and not sent back into the intake system.

The muck and crap from the breather is what build up on the backside of the intake valves and causes carb build up

why not run a Vacum pump?

[yokust]

why not run a Vacum pump?

Because the system does not need a vacuum pump, it needs a quality filtering system.

A vacuum pump on the crankcase system is only needed when a motor builds up too much crankcase pressure and can not get rid of it