Audi versus Porsche

[tailpipe]

Volkswagen's acquisition of Porsche was in many ways an obvious if not rational consolidation, and all the more so given Dr. Ferdinand Piech's shareholding in both companies. Porsche's future now seems secure while the brand should have a halo effect on the rest of the brand line-up.

But there is much work to be done. The 911 is an iconic car, but it really is an anomaly among modern sports cars. Good as it may be, it cannot hold a candle to the latest Ferraris or even Audi's amazing R8, which has sold so well in comparison. Both have a dynamic capabilities that even the most gifted engineers at Porsche cannot exceed when saddled with the 911's archaic rear engine layout. I am not suggesting that the 911 should be killed-off, the market for it seems to be showing no signs of declining. But With Aston-Martin and Mercedes investing in increasingly better new models, the competition is catching up. Porsche needs a new sports car strategy. Indeed, VW has already stated its intention to invest in new models, the most significant being an entry-level roadster below the Boxter. But what it really needs is a true successor to the 911.

Enough about Porsche. The question is where does this leave Audi? Audi's remarkable growth over the last 5 years has been largely due to the adoption of sporting character in its models. Cars like the R8, RS4, RS6 and TT-RS have all underlined performance as a key Audi brand characteristic. Will Audi's sporting pretensions be amputated by Porsche's strategy? I hope not and i don't think it will. But how the two brands sit together to complement each other remains a major strategic issue for the Group. I think the relationship between the two brands needs to be carefully defined to avoid product overlap and customer confusion.

In terms of future Audis, i hope we will see the following mix of characteristics: advanced technology, brilliant engineering, practicality and comfort, performance + economy, dynamic handling, safety, design a+ style and, of course, Quattro. These characteristics must continue to form the cornerstones of the brand, but equally they must add up to an overall promise that encapsulates what Audi stands for. For a long term, certainly in the UK, Audi has been using the tag line: Vorsprung durch technik (Leaping ahead through technology). Such a promise only creates value for customers if you constantly manage to innovate. The problem with innovation is that it is soon copied, so people forget the fact that it was Audi who invented things like front-wheel drive, numerous engine technologies and other breakthrough technologies.

One reason that BMW has been so successful is that its positioning was always about driving pleasure: an emotional benefit which was much harder to copy. BMW has now abandoned driving pleasure in favour of efficient dynamics. What a huge mistake.

So Audi now has the opportunity to reposition itself in a way that moves beyond 'Vorsprung durch technik'. I think it must reflect an emotional benefit, not a functional one. When I think about the cumulative benefits of an Audi, what they add up to is: total predictability that gives me confidence. It's being able to drive an RS4 on icy roads at speeds well above that of other cars; its an R8 that flatters my lack of racing driver training; it's the styling of a TT which says I'm innovative and progressive; it's a car that's forgiving when i exceed its limits.

i think defining these brand characteristics of the brand is incredibly important for Audi, not only because Porsche has to find its own place within the VW empire, but because the industry is changing. Whether we end up driving fuel-cell-powered cars, pure electric vehicles or a yet-to-be-invented sources of future green power, we'll still be driving cars and we'll want them to reflect our own individual needs, wants, tastes, preferences and attitudes.

If Audi gets this right, then we can expect to drive cars that are exciting, reliable and dynamic - just as they have now become. But, if Audi gets it wrong, it may risk descending into a morass of me-too mediocrity, a lack of focus that destroyed GM. As things stand, the signs are good, but with so many new models being released, i believe Audi's sense of its own identity is incredibly important.

[Fab]

Tailpipe, as you often do, you are here opening a vast and complexe subject.

Although they are very much linked together I hereby recognise 3 themes : 1) Porsche vs competion, 2) Porsche within its new corporate environment and 3) Audi and its fantastic growing momentum.

As just said these topics are very much interdependant to some extend but let us try to differenciate them.

1) Porsche vs competition. I think a simple and short sentence could be either you love it and never go away or you hate it. This is probably due to 2 main factors 1) the eternal ans specific shape of the 911 : fantastic but smooth and subtile evolution over time for some people and a boring and same looking car for more than 40 years for the others and 2) its engine positionning which makes it either so unique and fantastically rewarding to drive once understood the dynamic implications or a non sense and dangerous set up totally outdated.

Well I think an easy answer to the above is to say it is a matter a choice and feeling of each one of us. But I also think it depends what are the factors that make someone buy a sport car : branding ? history ? image ? driving pleasure ? allweather, allround car ? value for money ?

Leaving aside the other Porsche products the 911 eventhough facing big competition remains the best GT car in the world for most of the car enthusiastics and professional press and drivers. It offers the most complete standard package (no after markt mods) for daily driving 365 days, sporty drives and track experience : nothing to be changed. Which is by far not the case of most of the competition. And lets not forget than eventhough not big the 911 offers 4 seats allowing for a 1-3 hours trip wihtout major unconfort.

Its development remains focused on weight saving, and constantly improving a still better and better copy. The 911 NA is the pure GT, the TT is the ultimate daily GT/supercar and the GT3 continues to be mentionned as the best street legal sport/track car for its genuine and "old style" rewarding drive (EVO, Sport Auto, etc.) even vs a 458 that by the way costs almost twice as much, imposes much more care and remains a w-e car and 2 seater.

I do not agree with you when you say that its engine set up is outdated, archaic and that competition is (far) ahead with its new products. At the contrary Porsche and more the 911 is a world on its own and most of Porsche enthusiastics do not even consider moving. Some do because of the the heavy marketing of the brand which makes a bit less exclusive than it used to be. The 911 has also been evolving into a more easy and smooth car to drive vs the 70's and 80's models. Many Porsche owner have do drive their 5th, 6th,...10th 911. Also Porsche is by far the brand still having the biggest proportion/ratio of cars produced still on the road. Who else can claim to be close to this ? This is a prove of reliability, passion and driving pleasure.

After 6 Audis I can tell you that the 911 gives me 1000% more driving pleasure and feel than any Audi I ever owned (A3, S3, TT v6, S4, RS4). Lets not missunderstand me : I love Audi and might be back but almost for shure my next Audi will be sitting aside a Porsche.

2) Porsche within its new corporate environment. I hope this will benefit to both sides VW and Co and Porsche. Porsche must remain a top luxury product and this is certainly obvious to everyone and should not be a problem as VW is managing the same with Bentley and Lambo. I even think that by getting Porsche on board makes it a nice complement to the existing products and brands of VW.

I do not even think that a 911 is really competing with an R8.

3) Audi and its fantastic growing momentum. This is a fact and I have been welcoming it big time. But I think Audi is slowly becoming victim of it own success as we say. RS are coming far too late in the model cycle (we have been all debating on this big time here...), The model range is getting larger but they all tend to look very similar without a real personality given to each model (A3, A4, A6, A8). Big price increase and hudge depreciation of the "big models". Lack of driving feel eventhough being improved. Engine ahead of front axle, too heavy cars.

I would 100x get a 911 TT or a Lambo instead of an R8 V8 or V10. Not that I do not like the car (that I never drove by the way) but the branding and the "aura" or "glory" is and will never be the same. Some might think different of course...

I am looking forward to debating more on this which will soon be the case as I am shure this topic will grow fast (and hopefully intellingently as usual on this forum...)

Bottom line is that the best for all of us is to keep each brand identity intact and continue developing them as each one deserves it, as I will probably not really consider much other car brands choice outside the VW group. :applause:

[tailpipe]

Fab,

Thank you for an interesting and thoughtful response. I agree with just about everything you said.

There is no doubt that the 911 is a perfect everyday sports car and one that you can genuinely use 365 days a year. When you say that it is in a class by itself, you're right. It is an icon. You can evolve it gradually from one model to the next, to incorporate new developments, but you cannot fundamentally change it without destroying the magic that makes a 911 a 911. It is infinitely greater than the sum of its parts. Perhaps most crucially of all, it is priced very competitively. With the 911 Turbo, you get genuine supercar levels of performance at a price that is almost half that of a top end Ferrari. So it's hugely desirable and great value. There are few cars that combine these two characteristics.

The problem with the 911 is that it does indeed polarise people. And I totally agree: you either love it or hate it. I think there are a lot of people who like Porsche engineering, quality, performance and value, but who don't want a 911. They used to buy the 928, but now it is gone and nothing has replaced it, hence my comments about them needing a new model. So while it is certain that the 911 is here to stay, we can certainly expect a horde of exciting new models from Porsche and I think they will not merely be good cars but truly brilliant cars. For example, the new Cayenne Turbo is quite a step forward versus the older version.

Audi meanwhile, again as you so wisely point out, is the victim of its own success. In producing so many new models, the brand has lost some of its uniqueness with individual models all blending into an amorphous mass of similar shapes instead of being differentiated from each other. This is a big problem and for this reason, Audi's design department needs to go back to the drawing board and decide what visual language cues are important.

BMW, before Chris Bangle came along and messed everything up, had a fantastic sense of its own identity. Its cars used to have five distinct visual design signatures and so long as these were retained, stylists had great freedom to make different models unique versus others in the range. The elements were:

1. The Kidney grille
2. Twin headlights
3. V-line in bonnet
4. Hofmeister kink in the c-pillar glass
5. Top half proportions = to bottom half proportions, so cars never looked top heavy

Somehow the importance of these basic design signatures was ignored. Very nice to see them return with Adrian Von H.

I don't think Walter da Silva was successful in developing an overall look for Audi. Rather the emerging design language developed by Martin Smith / Freeman Thomas with the original TT, A2 and B6 A4, was much more subtle and elegant IMHO. I think the shoulder line of the A5 coupe is a mess: it looks as if the car is warped from some angles. At least the A5 Sportback is better in incorporating curves. So Audi needs to reinvent its own visual design signatures..

Finally, the only thing I really disagree with is the R8. Dr. Piech instructed Audi to produce it, precisely because he wanted to show Porsche the kind of cars they ought to be making. The R8 has sold incredibly well. If Porsche had made something similar, it could have been sold for a lot more money. Anyway, look what's coming: the Porsche 918 / Carrera GT replacement isn't a thousand miles away from an R8. But look at the price!

[Fab]

The R8 has sold pretty well but look at the second hand R8 market : It is hudge a prices are at the bottom (the V10 is keeping well because it is still new). The main issue for the R8, although fantastic and well balance car no doubt about this is that it is.... an Audi. Many people will never go for it because (maybe stupidly enough) the brand is not as exclusive as others with equivalent/similar products. And believe me this comment (right or wrong in absolute terms but real) is frequently expressed by potential customers.

A I agree with you : an equivalent Porsche product will be more pricy. But it must be more pricy. Would you buy a luxury good such as perfume if a brand would issue one at five euros. Certainly not...

It might change but so far Audi brand is still considered (see various polls) as inferior and less luxury minded than BMW, Merc, Porsche, etc... and this is the most difficult but necessary think the brand must work on but it takes time, energy and not only marketing and money injection in new model creation... Audi image as significantly improved though. I remember a poll result in Germany (if not mistaking) which the result was : Audi is considered as the school teacher car brand....

[andreadebi]

very very interesting way of thinking-analysis

I will summarize my ideas writing that Porsche will assume the n°1 sportcar brand importance (as actually has,the fastest cars on the track are made by Porsche) as also a VW top manager reported recently.Audi will be a brand more focused on the driving pleasure than in the past but will maintain the gap with Porsche

[Fab]

Short but I fully agree as well. Canibalism is the worst think that can happen between brands of a same group. Audi and Porsche are and will remain different products for different clients (hopefully).

[AndyBG]

It might change but so far Audi brand is still considered (see various polls) as inferior and less luxury minded than BMW, Merc, Porsche, etc... and this is the most difficult but necessary think the brand must work on but it takes time, energy and not only marketing and money injection in new model creation... Audi image as significantly improved though. I remember a poll result in Germany (if not mistaking) which the result was : Audi is considered as the school teacher car brand....

As much as I don't have this kind of oppinion, many people do...

[KresoF1]

Hmm... I agree mostly with Fab.

Here is little bit of my personal opinion...

R8... For sure a great sportscar. BUT, R8 was a benchmark in 2007 in its V8 version. V10 came way too late IMHO. Currently, it is despite more versions(Spyder, GT) an old technology sportscar. DCT is not possible on current R8 platform. AWD is almost 10 years old Lamborghini design(remember R8 use same AWD as in Gallardo and it is refined Visco AWD). In real world it is even in V10 version no match for Porsche 997.2 Turbo PDK or Turbo S. Not to talk about Ferrari 458.

RS5... An utter dissapointment. No more, no less. Remember a words here on rs6.com that "RS5 will make circles around M3 on the track and on the road"? We all now know the facts-RS5 is slower then M3-both in straight line and on the track. Yes, RS5 looks awsome, but that is not enough this time I am affraid...

S5 Sportback... My favourite Audi currently. Excellent design, good engine, excellent gearbox and very efficient AWD setup. Price is right as well.

TTRS... Another very, very good little sportscar from Audi, specially with S tronic. Characterfull engine. IMHO fun to drive.

RS3... Mistake from Audi IMHO. There is NO need for this car-again IMHO.

A7/S7... A7 looks... Not as good as A5 SB for me. S7 will be little bit too late. But,overall a nice car. Prices are again OK.

Porsche future on the other hand pretty bright. New Cayenne and Panamera are excellent cars. Forthcoming 991(new 911 for late 2011) will be an awsome sportcar accordign to trustworthy sources that I have. Porsche is IMHO at much higher level then Audi. Both from technical and image aspects IMHO.

[tailpipe]

Kreso,

You make valid points about the R8. it will be interesting to see what tech Audi brings to the party when it is replaced.

I agree with you about the RS5 too. I think that the 4.2 FSI had little further development potential when compared to newer forced-induction units which could more easily be tuned to deliver greater outputs without sacrificing economy. By the time it was launched, the world had moved on, although I note that the M3 also uses a naturally aspirated V8.

I also agree that the S4 Saloon/ Avant and S5 Sportback are indeed the best Audis at this time. (After many previous disagreements with you, Kreso, I never thought I would find myself agreeing so much with you!)

:cheers:

Where I differ is on the RS3. if Audi gets it right, then this car could have the same effect on more expensive sports cars as the original Golf GTI. It is all about that engine. The 5-cylinder TFSI unit is a peach and deserves wider application. (Despite rear seats, the TT is a two-seater.) And with a 7-speed DSG, the engine should be even better. I just wish Audi had introduced the RS3 a year ago. It is arriving way too late in the model cycle.

The other reason why the RS3 is important is because drivers everywhere are downsizing. However, the pricing of this car will be absolutely key to its success. As soon as you step into TT-RS territory, you start looking at the S4 as an alternative. If the RS3 and S4 end up costing the same, there is no doubt which one I'd choose.

The TT-RS is a fine car, but it has been less successful than hoped, largely due to its high price - it costs the same as a Boxter. As Fab points out, the Audi brand simply cannot command such a premium. Volkswagen is charging way too much for the Golf R and while it is selling, because it is still new and supply is constrained, second-hand values reflect significant depreciation. Depreciation is a still major Audi negative too.

All of these comments reflect Audi today. it is juggling a lot of balls in the air. And this is before Porsche is fully integrated by VW into the brand stable. As you say, Kreso, Porsche is looking very strong. I imagine that its new entry-level sports car will sell very well and very profitably.

It is against this internal threat that Audi must be prepared to fight. Great products start with a great vision and that requires Audi to work out what its brand stands for in 2010. For me, it isn't 100% clear. it has to move further up-market. it can only achieve that by doing something unique not by being the same as everyone else.

For most Audis have a desirability that eludes both BMW and Mercedes-Benz. The Audis presently rolling off the production line are amazing. The engineering standards are probably the best in the industry, product quality seems undiminished while the latest quattro systems and the A8's new MMI system show that Vorsprung is still springing.

[Joker]

It appear everyone is in agreement with the direction both Porsche and Audi should take, though whether the MDs of each brand see it like that is questionable. Audi aren't competitors for Porsche, neither are BMW or Mecedes, these are mainstream brands that predominantly sell hatchbacks, saloons and estates, only specialising in the odd hi-performance model to make the rest of their range look exciting. Porsche on the other hand are predominantly a sportscar manufacturer that have tested the water with some exciting though rather ugly SUVs and saloon cars. Now unless things dramatically change and both brands start making more models that overlap I don't think too much will change between either, you might see Porsche helping Audi and VW develop better handling chassis, something that would be very welcome but I can't believe Audi or VW will try and out do Porsche, their main goal is the win customers away for their main rivals like BMW and Mercedes.

[RXBG]

the mystique behind porsche's rear engine placement is a disposable one. porsche will invariably begin to move the engine forward. as you will see in the 998. to boot, porsche had an R8 in it's R&D building as soon as it went on sale. i don't think audi ever had a porsche for the same purposes. it was shortly after that the 997.2 came out. porsche did it's homework with the 997.2 and made it a much better handling car... and what is more, more accessible for the average driver. as it is, the R8 platform is a superior one vs any current porsche product, including the cayman, by virtue of the fact that it is not only mid-engined, but also spaceframe based. you can expect to see the 998 moving into the realm of aluminium and mid-engine shifted platforms.

so, audi has the better platform and dynamics with which to grow and build amazing sportscars. the other two issues remain- engine and gearbox. in that respect audi has obviously had problems. it has been late to the game with DSG in it's hi po vehicles. the engine development has been satisfactory and on par with porsche's.

what this all means is that the future will expectedly include a merging of technology between the two brands. how and where it will happen is yet to be seen, but i think most would agree that porsche will have to share it's PDK with audi in the next gen R8 (2014)--- why continue to develop a DSG for the V8 when it is easier/cheaper to adapt the PDK to it? at the same time, the 998.2 will likely be almost all aluminium (since the acquisition of porsche took place after the 998 was 99% signed off for production). engines will be a wash since the 4.0T will be in the R8 and porsche is rumored to have a larger I6 vs V8 in the 998.

the next R8 vs 998 battle will be epic. a lot will depend on how good the 998 is, of course, but the main differences will remain- audi will start the R8 as a mid-level 998 competitor, but with a more exotic-car presence and higher level performance. (i.e. 998 C4S powerkit vs base R8, 998 TT vs midrange R8, etc..) this is how audi and porsche will be able to sell both. remember that there are many people who are GDI- god d*amned independent- and do not want to be seen and do not see themselves as "porsche people" or "ferrari people" or "lambo people". they want something that is a supercar, but special and unique and out of the usual. at least here in the USA since audi's rennaissance the number of members of this club has grown exponentially- they were in their 20's and 30's when the B5 S4 came out and they are reaching age and earnings that will put them in that R8 demographic. these are people that appreciate the traditional marques and see that the intangible differences between an R8 and a 998 make all the difference to them... they are self-made people, they are independently sophisticated and have their own style, they don't want to be labeled- in fact they hate it... and so the R8 will be very appealing to them.

Re: Kreso's points-

the RS5 is a disappointment performance wise, but then again, audi generally goes for the refinement token vs the bmw's focus on performance. they have to differentiate the two in order to offer the cosnumer a choice.

the R8 V10 is pricewise at 997.2 TT territory. again, they are tied in the comfort department, though the R8 is more refined and better executed inside (yet the TT has rear seats- which does account for something). the TT is faster in the straights (with DPK) but neck and neck on a track... and not enough to make a significant difference. that the R8 does this with "10 year old tech" is a testament to how much better the car can become and how far ahead of its time it is. it is quite ridiculous how much better the next one will potentially be. and very scary, in fact. as long as audi doesn't screw it up. further, the R8 looks like an exotic and acts like one. the TT, on the other hand, while being a very attractive car looks just like a base carrerra to most people.- this is a curse that is the result of the wide range of price ranges at which is offered- all based on one basic car.

the biggest hole in audi's lineup vs porsche is the lack of a new V8 engine. second to this is the lack of a DSG for the V8 engine. but it is a bigger car co. more models. more R&D money to spread thin.

[andreadebi]

next 911 will make a big upshift also for size and price,will be closer to ferrari 458 price and this will let porsche a "space" where can create new porsche products between cayman and 911

[tailpipe]

the mystique behind porsche's rear engine placement is a disposable one... porsche will invariably begin to move the engine forward. as you will see in the 998.... the R8 platform is a superior one vs any current porsche product, including the cayman, by virtue of the fact that it is not only mid-engined, but also spaceframe based... you can expect to see the 998 moving into the realm of aluminium and mid-engine shifted platforms.

These are controversial if not inflammatory remarks. There is this urban myth that driving a Porsche fast requires greater skill than driving other rear-engined sports cars. So if you drive a Porsche, you're somehow more macho. I don't buy into this crap at all, but it seems a lot of people do. It is part of the mystique. One reason why Porsche has this corner of the market for itself for so long is that there was nothing to compete with it on price, performance and everyday reliability. That was until the R8 came along.


so, audi has the better platform and dynamics with which to grow and build amazing sportscars. the other two issues remain- engine and gearbox... in that respect audi has obviously had problems. it has been late to the game with DSG in it's hi po vehicles. the engine development has been satisfactory and on par with porsche's.

what this all means is that the future will expectedly include a merging of technology between the two brands. how and where it will happen is yet to be seen, but i think most would agree that porsche will have to share it's PDK with audi in the next gen R8 (2014)--- why continue to develop a DSG for the V8 when it is easier/cheaper to adapt the PDK to it? at the same time, the 998.2 will likely be almost all aluminium (since the acquisition of porsche took place after the 998 was 99% signed off for production). engines will be a wash since the 4.0T will be in the R8 and porsche is rumored to have a larger I6 vs V8 in the 998.

While Porsche stands to benefit from any merging of technology, i am not sure how Audi will benefit. Porsches will continue to command higher premiums and have a better image than Audis. Audi will be giving to Porsche the very things that give its cars uniqueness and value.


The next R8 vs 998 battle will be epic. a lot will depend on how good the 998 is, of course, but the main differences will remain- audi will start the R8 as a mid-level 998 competitor, but with a more exotic-car presence and higher level performance. (i.e. 998 C4S powerkit vs base R8, 998 TT vs midrange R8, etc..) this is how audi and porsche will be able to sell both. remember that there are many people who are GDI- god d*amned independent- and do not want to be seen and do not see themselves as "porsche people" or "ferrari people" or "lambo people". they want something that is a supercar, but special and unique and out of the usual. at least here in the USA since audi's rennaissance the number of members of this club has grown exponentially- they were in their 20's and 30's when the B5 S4 came out and they are reaching age and earnings that will put them in that R8 demographic. these are people that appreciate the traditional marques and see that the intangible differences between an R8 and a 998 make all the difference to them... they are self-made people, they are independently sophisticated and have their own style, they don't want to be labeled- in fact they hate it... and so the R8 will be very appealing to them.

i think both cars will be essentially the same as they are now. As you say, 998 was signed off before VW takeover. it may move the engine forward slightly, but it'll still be rear-engined. Besides, I'm not sure 911 customers want a mid-engine 911.

As for the next R8, it will probably get the 4.0-litre V8, but if Porsche gets this too it destroys differentiation for both brands. I read somewhere that Porsche is developing Flat-4 and a Flat-8 engines and that all Porsches, including Cayenne and Panamera will get unique engines. Anyone heard anything about this? This would be good.

[RXBG]

a- i've never known anyone to say it requires more balls to drive a porsche. i have heard it requires a small penis though! :) people pick and choose what they say is the mystique behind a car (i.e. the saab ignition key in the lower control panel, the lambo wing doors, the vtec in hondas, whatever....) if porsche can dial out snap oversteer with ESp, etc... fine by me. different ways to skin a cat imo. ask any GTR driver and they'll swear by the amazing handling it has and never complain about the boeing-level electronic aids that car has.

b- audi will benefit via PDK- as i clearly stated. if the current R8 V10 had a PDK option it would be insanely quick.

c- "I'm not sure 911 customers want a mid-engine 911." no one thought 911 customers would buy porsche SUV's yet the cayenne has been a major hit.

[Fab]

Few comments here :

Audi space frame and "pioneer in aluminium use" is probably true but hey Porsche does not need aluminium frame to make a light and performance car. The 911 despite big evolution (equipement, electronics, ect) over the past 15 years did not put any significant additional weight, which allows this car to remain more than competitive (to say the least) to the rest of the world even with less HP (which by the way are real HP if you know what I mean....). Both R8 despite aluminium use, two seater weight more than a C4s or TT repectively. So yes if Porsche gets into the "aluminium business" then this gap will for shure become even greater...

Special skills required to drive a Porsche ? Not really. But the law of physic clearly applies specific reactions to the weight balance of the 911 and this simply needs to be understood. It "simply" requires to be more on top of thinks and awake when driving fast a 911 which is not the case driving an Audi S or RS. Yes recent models are less hard core than a 1970 911 but one still need to assimilate a bit of basics. Nothing more nothing less. Many people having driven for years fast a heavy nose weighted cars such an Audi crashed their new 911 soon after they got it.... This is not a myth. Does this make the 911 the real macho car ? Not at all. I would add that most of the 911 you cross around are driven by mid-life bankers who do not even know how to drive and never use the car potential....

I am still an Audi fan for shure and I re-re-repeat it but why should systematically an Audi be killed in pure power acceleration vs direct competitor despite similar or more HP in favor of the Audi ? RS5/RS4 vs M3, R8 vs 911, R8 V10 vs 911TT... Straight line accel is for shure not real life but the RS range is meant to be the ultra performance and sport capabilities of the brand and the consensus is that it never really outperform big time competition. Why is this ?

Well we will say that Audi RS are the perfect allround package and that an RS will kill any car on rain or snow. But this to me looks like a frustrated compensation to the rest. Nowaday an M3, a C63 or even a C2S with winter tires can bring you to a ski resort without having to sweat.

RS cars a great but have been disapointing me recently and thus I decided to pause on them : too heavy (super heavy), expensive (more than 100k euro for an RS5 come on... this is more than the former M5 v10), too similar look (TT RS front = RS5 front = upcoming RS3 front). I agree with Kreso and find the S range much better value for money/drive/allweather, etc... For sport sensation and fun I am looking elswhere for the time being. And I can say that with my C4S I really get what I was looking for !

I can trust that a remapped TT RS is a trully beast and fast car but why should we go for artificial mods to get what the car should deliver from the factory after having spend the high end sum to get the car already ?

Bottom line is to me that RS should go one step futher on the true sport spirit as they are now to close to the S models.

[Joker]

Bottom line is to me that RS should go one step futher on the true sport spirit as they are now to close to the S models.

Well said, when Audi can make their S cars trump their direct competition then why shouldn't we expect the same from the RS model. They may well sing from a different song sheet compare to BMW and Mercedes, or even Porsche for that matter but in the end it's the performance that matters most and here the RS models haven't been stamping their mark on the rivals as they did years ago.

Audi has stepped up to the mark with the S range but quattroGmbH haven't.

[tailpipe]

Gosh, we're not very happy with Audi's RS cars at the moment, are we? I didn't realise the extent to which people here regard the RS5 as a disappointment.

Qisha started a thread elsewhere about what people wanted to see in future RS models and i guess that is becoming a very important question. To me the B7 RS4 was a landmark car. It comprehensively outperformed the old M3 and was just so usable 365 days. Yet, even so, it had a pathetic touring range and it was released just before the new A4 arrived. The next RS cars need to be sensational.

In the meantime, I know a lot of Audi drivers who have subsequently bought Porsches.

[Fab]

In the meantime, I know a lot of Audi drivers who have subsequently bought Porsches. Whereas in the old days the contrary happened big time : people switching from Porsche to RS4 B5 and B7, RS6 V8 which excepted the RS2 (arranged by Porsche...) will remain the true RS... Unless Audi reacts accordingly especially now that budgets are there to grow the brand. Come on guys get it right !!!!

[Lmg]

I'm hopping that the new Sport Quattro/Project Anniversario might bring that performance edge back to RS models.

[AndyBG]

Audi, somehow, allways late behind others...

RS 5 obviously have 4.2 V8 only in order ''to prolonge'' stronger 3.0 T...

Why Audi can't be the first when it comes to engine development... For instance, Merc' has canceled 4.0 V8 diesel in S class, so its obvious that they are preparing twin turbo V6, BMW did that long time ago, while Audi is presenting new A8 with V8 diesel...

Merc' droped 5.5l V8 n/a in favour of 4.7l V8 twin turbo, BMW did that, also, long time ago, while Audi is presenting new A8 with 4.2l V8 n/a...

Problem is, Audi will be doing same things as MB and BMW, but ALLWAYS with several years later...

Is Audi somehow destined to follow...?

It becomes very clear that they can't be first in anything, technicaly speaking, comparing to concurention.

And one more thig!

Why is now easyer to choose MUCH more BMWs and MBs with four wheel drive than Audi!

Audi is nown for its quattro, but concurention has more AWD cars on offer!

Auto' gearboxes issue is also on table... Many of the most interestin Audi model are still not available with Auto' gearbox, witch is in 21 century APSURD!

[Qisha]

Audi, somehow, allways late behind others... Problem is, Audi will be doing same things as MB and BMW, but ALLWAYS with several years later...


Dear Friends,

well- actually those engines are ready and will be shown soon. :jlol:

Qisha

PS: in the end it is not about being first but to be the most profitable... not always what a enthusiast would expect- i know. :cheers:

[Joker]

Dear Friends,

well- actually those engines are ready and will be shown soon. :jlol:

Qisha

PS: in the end it is not about being first but to be the most profitable... not always what a enthusiast would expect- i know. :cheers:

For years there has been rumours of a v6 bi-turbo diesel, will this engine ever make it to production?
There is little doubt that Porsche as well as Audi could make good use of such an engine.

[tvrfan]

whats about a tri-turbo. when audi uses the slogan "vorsprung durch technik" then audi must be the first with such a motor. but bmw again, has it under devoplement :(

[Erik]

One reason that BMW has been so successful is that its positioning was always about driving pleasure: an emotional benefit which was much harder to copy. BMW has now abandoned driving pleasure in favour of efficient dynamics. What a huge mistake.




I don't think it's quite that bad, but you certainly have a very good point.

But I do agree the space for the "best driver's car" is open for someone else to "park" there. Just do it...!

[Erik]

whats about a tri-turbo. When audi uses the slogan "vorsprung durch technik" then audi must be the first with such a motor. But bmw again, has it under devoplement :(

Bmw m400 ;)

[Zyklon5]

PS: in the end it is not about being first but to be the most profitable... not always what a enthusiast would expect- i know. :cheers:

This is very true, but 5 years of engine leadership help a lot with the perceived brand image. The aura of cutting edge engine development brings positive press which helps establish the brand and last but not least drives sales.

For me Stronic/DSG was the quintessential example of vorsprung durch technik and Audi should push for a top to bottom Stronic range as soon as possible wherever it makes sense. (A8 and Q7's target is probably better suited by the 8speed ZF).

If the rumored BMW triturbo 3.0 diesel checks wins over the V8 4.2 TDI in all categories it's going to be another big image win for BMW.

[AndyBG]

Dear Friends,

well- actually those engines are ready and will be shown soon. :jlol:

Qisha

I belive they are ready, but BMW and Merc' have them for so many years now...

BMWs 3.0l R6 twin turbo diesel was launched in 2004 !!!

BMWs 2.0l R4 twin turbo diesel and Merc's 2.2l R4 twin turbo are here for some time now, while I havn't heard about VAGs 2.0 TTDI...

[Qisha]

I belive they are ready, but BMW and Merc' have them for so many years now...

BMWs 3.0l R6 twin turbo diesel was launched in 2004 !!!

BMWs 2.0l R4 twin turbo diesel and Merc's 2.2l R4 twin turbo are here for some time now, while I havn't heard about VAGs 2.0 TTDI...

Dear AndyBG,

the main problem is, engineering a V-Layout staged induction diesel engine is a pain. Mostly because of heat leading to reliability issues etc.

The 3.0 V6 TDI in its latest evolution has a great potential, there is no need for a staged or double forced induction to get 300HP and 650NM out of it, with daily driving comfort and continued reliability. :)

Qisha

[AndyBG]

Dear AndyBG,

the main problem is, engineering a V-Layout staged induction diesel engine is a pain. Mostly because of heat leading to reliability issues etc.

The 3.0 V6 TDI in its latest evolution has a great potential, there is no need for a staged or double forced induction to get 300HP and 650NM out of it, with daily driving comfort and continued reliability. :)

Qisha

That is 100% true, problem is, for instance, on markets where you pay taxes based on the volume of the engine, not power, everybody is buying smaller engines with more power... BTW 2.0 TDI is streight 4 engine, why there isn't twin turbo one...?

Second thing is, Audi scholud make, if it allowed for them, a breaktrough, and be first in something, technicaly speaking...

RS 5 was great oppurtunity for high perforamance 3.0 T to be introduced, not to FOLLOW BMW and Merc' with big V8, their cars were presented with those enfines several years ago... Specially when we all now that next M3, not that far away, will be 3.0 TT... In this situation, I certenly can guess that next RS 4/5 will be 3.0 T...

Still, I would like to adress ''quattro'' and Auto' gearbox questions once again... It is essential for Audi to have biggest offer of 4WD cars, and it has to have same level of Auto'gearbox offer...
Best example is, you can't have A4 2.0 TDI quattro with any kind of auto' gearbox! BMW have 320d xDrive with steptronic, MB even have C 250 CDI 4MATIC with any kind of transmision. Maybe not that much interesting for this site, but certanly very interesting for Audi, B/C it is a great potential seller... This is high volume selling car...!

quattro and automatic transmision must be offered in wider range of
audi cars!

[QuattroFun]

I have to agree that Porsche is overall 1-2 notches ahead of Audi (and also BMW & Merc) in terms of both performance and prestige and VW has so far not diluted this fact. Hopefully things stay this way and at least the Lambo experience is encouraging. That said, a few issues aside, I feel that we are too harsh on Audi. The RS5 is NOT overall technically a failure by any means and nor is the R8 V10. Audi just got too greedy on the pricing, weight is a cronic problem and Audi remains undecided on what it want the cars to be relative to competition in terms of character. More and better communicated development focus will certainly help. A weighty GT such as the RS5 should have a lot more torque and be more comfortable - but yet be well built with lots of feelgood and agile and fun enough such as the current iteration is. I.e. a more sporty Bentley Continental GT. Audi should better play its strengths rather than trying to copy others.

[tailpipe]

QuattroFun,

I agree, I think we are being a bit too hard on Audi. Overall, its cars are excellent - I had to go away from the brand and buy something else to realize that: my Lexus was an expensive mistake. Let's face it, Audi currently makes five truly outstanding engines, the 2.0-litre petrol and diesel fours; the 3.0-litre petrol and diesel V6s; and the 2.5-litre five. When the 4.2-litre V8 came out, Jeremy Clarkson described it as one of the great engines. It may be old now, but it has rendered excellent service. Moreover, the new 4.0-litre V8 will be spectacular. So, soon we'll be able to add a sixth engine to the line-up.

Ultimately, my own choice of a performance model depends on the engine. A great engine is the beating heart of a good car. I think Audi has an edge over BMW now. As for Mercedes-Benz, look how long it has taken to introduce direct injection.

What we all universally seem to be complaining about is Audi's pricing. The TT-RS is an amazing car. For all it's merits, it just doesn't have the focus, driving pleasure, street credibility and ownership kudos that a Cayman/ Boxter does. So charging more money for the TT-RS doesn't stack up in my book. This is true for quite a few Audi models. I think it represents over-confidence, perhaps even arrogance, on behalf of Audi senior management. McLaren's Ron Dennis always says that confidence is a weakness: it breeds complacency.

There's something else about pricing: from the original Quattro, to the RS2, to the RS4 and RS6, Audi consistently produced very conservative looking cars: "Q"cars, that humbled focused sports cars costing twice as much. The original Quattro was quite superb in this regard. It had a mere 220 bhp! £80,000 for the latest RS6 was absurd and destroyed the concept.

What all this reflects is that the many RS owners and fans on this forum appreciate great engineering above badge snobbery. We buy Audi's because they are brilliant cars, not because they reflect wealth, status or some other non-driving related badge. In that respect, we are people who care about value. Audi should not forget this.

[darkop]

^
in this respect, we should all thank Audi for start making more driving focused cars as it wasn't the case just few years ago! We cannot just make reference to the rs2, which was built with porsche, and rave about unforgettable past and piss on new models! Audi has never been better than today, even though going into too many niches! Even the B7 RS4 was never a real driving car with amazing dynamics! It only destroyed the previous M3 thanks to its engine (which is again something that Audi achieved and seems like it's not recognized enough!).
And no, am not defending them blindly but we have to be objective and take our hats off this time to the guys from our beloved marque (if it still is to someone of you!?)
cheers!

[Fab]

One think is clear : we all love Audi for all what we have been mentionning on this post (and others). But Audi is currently at a turning point and all our (constructive) remarks are hopefully being taken into consideration through Qisha and others. This is up to Audi to get the right "inflow" to get to the next level and really be unanimously recognise as trully good option to BMW, Porsche and others on driving pleasure and fun factor.

I am convinced that more and more car enthusiastics will be looking to pure pleasure cars delivering fun and sensations no matter the driving style. Allround/allweather super fast "trains" are less and less objectively usable due to stricter speed limitations, controls, etc... I remember myself completing record times on various well known vacations/week end trips (mixed of highway, B roads, mountain with rains, night and day) with my TT and especially with my former S4 biturbo. But this type of trips are now probably over because too risky (fines).

We do not want Audi to "destroy" the E46 M3 (5 years older at that time...) with the B7 RS4. We want the RS5 and upcoming (hopefully soon) new RS4 to "destroy" the E92 M3, C63, etc.

[Toto89]

Can i kindly disagree with many of You guys? I do not really think that Audi has done anything wrong in the past 10 years. They went through a huge development in every way a carmaker can.
Four wheel drive and auto gearboxes? Here is an example:
A guy i know has recently wanted to purchase a new car-BMW 5 was his first candidate, a 530D accurately, really nice car isn't it? But after talking to BMW dealer (in the capital city, BMW is not available in our hometown) they offered a audacious high price, plus refused to count in any of his current cars. In our climate zone and conditions, 4 wheel drive is a thing which is simple necessary if you want to travel during winter and 530D is not available with AWD yet. Then he turned to Audi (which is in our hometown with full service availability) and they offered him a A7 3.0 TDI Quattro with about the same price taking in two (!) of his old cars. Such a shame he bought an Infinity because of insanely low price, but this represents a thing- Audi (and VW also) is desperate about supporting costumers by taking in old cars and servicing as many places as possible, not only in big towns. At least in Europe. This is much more important in the status of 'premium brand' than having a few stuffs looking very good on paper.
You've also mentioned bi-turbo engines which are very good, but i don't see so much need of a 3.0 Bi-turbo in current range for example. The place where i would like to see an engine like this is probably a ~2016 B9 S4 replacing current V6 with an equivalent diesel one. That would be a breakthrough. The same doesn't refers to the 4 cylinders, current 2.0 TDI's need a change, but VW's Bi-TDIs are almost there at least in new Passat CC and i don't think it will take long to find it's way to A4 as well with both 180 and 204 hp versions.
It is not always the perfect way to do what others do, why we need a V8 biturbo in A8 if the 4.2 FSI consumpts less fuel while going faster than 750i? We will need it in S6/S7. It won't be enough against the new Mercedes bi-turbo V8 but by the time Audi will finaly release the V8 TFSI as well i think.
I don't know how many of you have driven the new A8 4.2 TDI yet but i did so and all is can say it is absolutely mind blowing, i can not see simply any chance for BMW to touch that with a 3.0 tri.turbo or whatever especially in a heavier car.
Going back on topic-refering to Porsche, of course Porsche is a few steps ahead of Audi in sportscar territory, yet. But don't forget what these two car manufacturers are about: Audi started to become a premium brand in the early '80s with producing excellent luxury and sports cars based on plain simple front wheel driven every-day VWs and now they ahead of BMW and Mercedes in building sports cars. Porsche was always on of the best race and sportscar manufacturer in the world, give Audi a few years after current R8 and i bet they will be equal. This is what they were excellent throughout the years-building premium products from what they had, not like it's competitors.

I hope You all understand what i mean and sorry for the long post..:)

Regars,
Tom

[Fab]

The first part of your post simply refers to one specific case of "not top" client feedback after contacting BMW who finally ended up to Audi with a nice product choice. This is not really showing any Audi strenght as the contrary is for shure happening as well.

Audi do have (as previously said) a great evolution and products but the consensus feels that they are still lacking to be the first one getting someting really new especially engine wise.

Then getting back to the title of the topic we all agree there is no match eventhough Audi first attempt with both R8 is a truly fantastic achievement and it has for shure opened an interesting door for Audi but it needs time (and much other thinks...) to get to the level of a 40 years pure sports car manufacturer like Porsche. Finally, this is not what we are asking Audi to achieve.