Dyno Day

[4everRS]

Well, after some anticipation we have some # for everyone.

First here is my dyno run. Stock except fluids and MTM TCU chip:
<embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allownetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid864.photobucket.com/albums/ab210/crocodile64/CarsandCoffeeDay063.flv" width="600" height="361">
Numbers were 377 hp and about 360 lbs. Tq. Dyno sheets won't be here for a couple days.

Here is Pats, video tells the story.
<embed type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allownetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid864.photobucket.com/albums/ab210/crocodile64/CarsandCoffeeDay065.flv" width="600" height="361">

(http://s864.photobucket.com/albums/ab210/crocodile64/?action=view&current=CarsandCoffeeDay065.flv)

[V8weight]

3 things: Kyle's car is a very healthy stock RS6. The specified and actual boost were spot on, and it posted excellent numbers.
I had no idea that my Eurocharged tune made this much power. That's 528 ft/lbs at the wheels....Holy smokes. How could you buy anything else? Is it worth it to buy the revo so you can screw around with some knobs? Or the APR so you can yank at your blinker stalk? I'm sold.
The third thing: On the second run for both Kyle and myself, we lost about 20-30 hp due to heat soak. By simply misting the intercoolers with a simple pump spray bottle of water before the third pull, we each gained 25-30 hp over the second run.

[4everRS]

The video shows 524 ft lbs. This was his first run. As Pat mentioned, we lost some hp on the second run. Then after spraying the IC's with water, The power came back. His last run was 528 ft lbs. If anyone is wondering that is equivalent to 660 at the crank assuming a 20% loss !!!!

[DHall1]

Some people like knob jobs and 3000 dollar reflashes that dont make power. Some people like junk stock intercoolers that leak like the BP oil well.


3 things: Kyle's car is a very healthy stock RS6. The specified and actual boost were spot on, and it posted excellent numbers.
I had no idea that my Eurocharged tune made this much power. That's 528 ft/lbs at the wheels....Holy smokes. How could you buy anything else? Is it worth it to buy the revo so you can screw around with some knobs? Or the APR so you can yank at your blinker stalk? I'm sold.
The third thing: On the second run for both Kyle and myself, we lost about 20-30 hp due to heat soak. By simply misting the intercoolers with a simple pump spray bottle of water before the third pull, we each gained 25-30 hp over the second run.

[ttboost]

The video shows 524 ft lbs. This was his first run. As Pat mentioned, we lost some hp on the second run. Then after spraying the IC's with water, The power came back. His last run was 528 ft lbs. If anyone is wondering that is equivalent to 660 at the crank assuming a 20% loss !!!!


I think these cars are closer to +25% driveline loss, if not higher...What do these cars make "stock"? 300-320 awhp depending on dyno? At 450crank hp thats 320/450=.71111. That's 29% there?

[4everRS]

Mine came in at 377hp stock at the wheels. So at 450 hp crank, this would be a 16% loss. IMHO I do not think this is accurate. There should be more drivetrain loss. Guessing is all we can do as far as what the drivetrain loss really is.

A different Dyno? Maybe.

But do we really know if Audi "underrated" the power a bit. Could be.

Plus, using 25% means that Pat is closer to 700 ft/lbs.
"I think these cars are closer to +25% driveline loss"

Nevertheless, the Eurcharged tune Pat has is incredible.

I think these cars are closer to +25% driveline loss, if not higher...What do these cars make "stock"? 300-320 awhp depending on dyno? At 450crank hp thats 320/450=.71111. That's 29% there?

[SAFE4NOW]

Interesting information, thank you for sharing!

FWIW: Mustang tells us to allow for 28% driveline loss in Quattro, Automatic Audi pulls.

Steve

[DHall1]

Every dyno has different traits. Word on the street is Dynojet reads higher than Mustang. That is fine.

The solid data speaks for itself. The stock car in excellent tune put down a number. The modified car in excellent tune put down a bigger number. The combination of the two plus the VagCom data logs with each car on the dyno is the whipped cream on top. Now we can look over the logs and determine where and how the extra power was made.

Its too bad JRS could not make to the dyno because his car has a different upgrade path and should have been a good comparison to the other two cars. And the Wagner intercoolers could have been tested out to determine efficiency with VagCom data logs on IATemps.

Next time.

[ben916]

Ok so let's review Pat's UPGRADES:

Eurocharged ECU tune
MTM TCU tune
007 Diverter Valves
Stock OEM Filter Assembly
Stock OEM turbos
BND trans fluid
BND engine oil

Anything else I missed??

[JSRS6]

Soon, i too will have all these things...muah ha ha ha!!!
And the K&N filters ;-)
How noticeable was the difference after the MTM TCU? I am stopping by Hoppen Monday after this one to get mine :-) Soooo excited...

[V8weight]

Ok so let's review Pat's UPGRADES:

Eurocharged ECU tune
MTM TCU tune
007 Diverter Valves
Stock OEM Filter Assembly
Stock OEM turbos
BND trans fluid
BND engine oil

Anything else I missed??
Other than the Eisenmann exhaust, that's it for engine mods.

[DHall1]

Yes you missed two biggies

Stock intercoolers
BND Aces

:-)

Aces rocks! Its now touching the 100s here in AZ and my car is still screaming. RS600 venting in the pan and Aces in the tank and the car just plain nuts. Drove it today and I was a very happy camper. I just need to finish up that intercooler sprayer package and look out idjuits


Ok so let's review Pat's UPGRADES:

Eurocharged ECU tune
MTM TCU tune
007 Diverter Valves
Stock OEM Filter Assembly
Stock OEM turbos
BND trans fluid
BND engine oil

Anything else I missed??

[ben916]

Other than the Eisenmann exhaust, that's it for engine mods.

Not being a jerk but, does that help?

[V8weight]

Not being a jerk but, does that help?
Nope, not one bit. It's all in the tune.

[peiserg]

fwiw my car stock put down something like 335 awhp stock, and 350 tq. with my oct tune/milltek full exhaust with race cats it put down a peak of 370/420.

the area under the curve gain was very big, so the #'s don't tell the whole story.

but stock for stock.. although there is definitely going to be car to car variability... it's hard to know what to think if a totally stock one makes 400awhp etc.. dyno vs. temps vs. fuel?

and i haven't really followed the eurotune threads too much, as i'm already tuned...

what's involved with the reflash? Since i'm already paid up on the OCT, if i don't like my eurotune i can always reflash OCT.

[DHall1]

I will meet you 1/2 way and we just race it off.

You cant push the go juice. Motor to motor.

If your OCT wins...you saved 600 bucks. Eurocharge is a reflash only.


fwiw my car stock put down something like 335 awhp stock, and 350 tq. with my oct tune/milltek full exhaust with race cats it put down a peak of 370/420.

the area under the curve gain was very big, so the #'s don't tell the whole story.

but stock for stock.. although there is definitely going to be car to car variability... it's hard to know what to think if a totally stock one makes 400awhp etc.. dyno vs. temps vs. fuel?

and i haven't really followed the eurotune threads too much, as i'm already tuned...

what's involved with the reflash? Since i'm already paid up on the OCT, if i don't like my eurotune i can always reflash OCT.

[SIKAudi]

I think these cars are closer to +25% driveline loss, if not higher...What do these cars make "stock"? 300-320 awhp depending on dyno? At 450crank hp thats 320/450=.71111. That's 29% there?
Really the drivetrains have only about 18 to 20% loss. Believe it or not they are pretty efficient. I have never seen one Dynoed with less than 22% loss and that was totally stock with heavy chrome 20" wheels (stupid) and about 96 degrees ambient temp. 03 RS6 450, RS6+ 480....

[ttboost]

Interesting information, thank you for sharing!

FWIW: Mustang tells us to allow for 28% driveline loss in Quattro, Automatic Audi pulls.

Steve

Yes. All the RS6's I've seen dyno'd were on a Mustang and have been between 300-330awhp.

[JSRS6]

So Pat, Is the tune you have the same one any of us can get reflashed with eurocharged? Or did they do some voodoo in your flash? And do you know if they can enable brake boosting?

[DHall1]

I have inspected the vagcom data logs of both cars.

I know where the power is made.

KISS, KISS, KISS, KISS

[JRS-RS6]

I have inspected the vagcom data logs of both cars.

I know where the power is made.

Speaking of which Pat send me the logs to my Yahoo account please so I can have a look at them when I get to Colorado tonight. Sorry I could not make it to the show and dyno event maybe next time.

[V8weight]

So Pat, Is the tune you have the same one any of us can get reflashed with eurocharged? Or did they do some voodoo in your flash? And do you know if they can enable brake boosting?
This is just the standard 93 octane tune. I'm running BP 93 octane gas with the Aces IV. I'm not sure if Eurocharged could disable the brake fail safe or not. I personally wouldn't.

[JSRS6]

True, wanna extend the life of the tc as long as possible. i imagine that would put alot of strain on it.

[DHall1]

So,

250 page views and not a peep about the intercooler spray bar idea?

30awhp increase from just spraying some water on the outside of the intercoolers?

30 wheel hp from a squirt of water?

how much is that exactly per hp gain?

I guess bling is more important.

bling, bling, bling, bling and bling. Got to get me more bling.

[JSRS6]

Bling Bling Dave. LMAO.
Actually Ben and I were talking about the idea last night. I remember seeing an electronically actuated y valve somewhere. If you could install that before each headlight washer, run them in parrallel to 12V+, and put a switch in the dash in whatever slot is empty(they sell both momentary and constant on replacements at oemplus), and run that to ground, all you would need to do after that is mount a nozzle on the other side of each y valve and voila!

Announcing for the first time, and for a limited time: Dave's Go Fast Voodoo Mister System!!

[DHall1]

Well, lets get with it. I gave you all the idea months ago in the Sportec thread and we now see how much real hp that can be gained with the addition.

30 wheel hp is the difference between spanking that Viper or getting your lunch handed to ya.




Bling Bling Dave. LMAO.
Actually Ben and I were talking about the idea last night. I remember seeing an electronically actuated y valve somewhere. If you could install that before each headlight washer, run them in parrallel to 12V+, and put a switch in the dash in whatever slot is empty(they sell both momentary and constant on replacements at oemplus), and run that to ground, all you would need to do after that is mount a nozzle on the other side of each y valve and voila!

Announcing for the first time, and for a limited time: Dave's Go Fast Voodoo Mister System!!

[JSRS6]

Dave, do you remember in your research for this idea if the windshield and headlight nozzles are fed at any point by a single hose coming out of the reservoir? Or if two are coming out of it to supply the two different areas? Because i was thinking that if you could place just one y nozzle before a split to both areas, you would only be feeding the ic nozzles when you push the voodoo button...

[V8weight]

I will do this and it will be something to behold, but it isn't going to happen tomorrow. Too much on my plate as it is. I plan on actuating the misters with a temp switch installed in the intercooler, not unlike the way the electric fans are actuated. Then there are no switches for me to fumble with while driving. The downside to this plan is that the intercoolers have to be removed to be properly drilled for the switch. Chew on that for a while......

[ttboost]

I will do this and it will be something to behold, but it isn't going to happen tomorrow. Too much on my plate as it is. I plan on actuating the misters with a temp switch installed in the intercooler, not unlike the way the electric fans are actuated. Then there are no switches for me to fumble with while driving. The downside to this plan is that the intercoolers have to be removed to be properly drilled for the switch. Chew on that for a while......


How about a Hobbs switch and spray when it boosts?

[V8weight]

How about a Hobbs switch and spray when it boosts?
That may be easier, since in order to use a temp switch, I would also need a way to make sure it was momentary, otherwise it would have to spray continuously until the temp switch is satisfied.

[ttboost]

That may be easier, since in order to use a temp switch, I would also need a way to make sure it was momentary, otherwise it would have to spray continuously until the temp switch is satisfied.

The Aquamist kit can spray with MAP or Injector duty cycle (the way I am doing it). I really don't use a lot of Meth. I realize the kit is expensive($600-$700?) but it has a few safety's built in and that is pretty good insurance for our expensive engines.

[V8weight]

Dave, do you remember in your research for this idea if the windshield and headlight nozzles are fed at any point by a single hose coming out of the reservoir? Or if two are coming out of it to supply the two different areas? Because i was thinking that if you could place just one y nozzle before a split to both areas, you would only be feeding the ic nozzles when you push the voodoo button...
The headlamp washers run off of the windshield washer reservoir, but have their own individual pump. There is one feed hose from the headlamp washer pump to the front bumper, then the hose "T's" before the nozzles. All you would have to do is disconnect the nozzles, then probably connect a reducer, and run smaller diameter hoses down to the spraybar Then just disconnect the plug from the headlamp washer pump and reconnect 12v from a different source of your choice, be it a momentary switch, a map switch, or a temp switch.

[DHall1]

Yep, this is the ticket.

I will think about the hobbs switch to operate but I may install a master switch to control the go juice. Dont need it if its cool out.

I may need to dive into mine because we wont see temps under a 100 for 5 months. Need to pull the bumper and check this out ... but the damn timing belt needs changed in our LX470, grass needs cut again, trees trimmed, motorhome oil serviced, dog kicked, pool cleaned, dammit... haha


The headlamp washers run off of the windshield washer reservoir, but have their own individual pump. There is one feed hose from the headlamp washer pump to the front bumper, then the hose "T's" before the nozzles. All you would have to do is disconnect the nozzles, then probably connect a reducer, and run smaller diameter hoses down to the spraybar Then just disconnect the plug from the headlamp washer pump and reconnect 12v from a different source of your choice, be it a momentary switch, a map switch, or a temp switch.

[ttboost]

Are you guys gonna re-tune for more power or just spray with small jets to keep from yanking timing? I obviously ask as it sounds like there are no "safety's" for your home grown system.

[JSRS6]

TT, I am guessing you are referring to the water/meth injection, as the ic mister is simply relieving the ic's of heat soak. The snow performance kits do have failsafes though. And from what ive read, it is the equivalent to running 100octane, only cleaner. so you will need a retune for 100octane

[DHall1]

No need to retune as the power is lost to the heat soak in the intercooler. The 25-30awhp comes right back when the outside of the intercooler gets a little spray.

Any more power and we would be rebuilding transmissions every 6 months.

I cant ask any more from this car than what the quattro boys have done. It is what it is and it is good enough. Anything I can do to improve heat exchanger efficiency is just keeping more of the power on tap when things get hot. The Sportec vent is fantastic as will be the intercooler outside spray system.


Are you guys gonna re-tune for more power or just spray with small jets to keep from yanking timing? I obviously ask as it sounds like there are no "safety's" for your home grown system.

[ttboost]

TT, I am guessing you are referring to the water/meth injection, as the ic mister is simply relieving the ic's of heat soak. The snow performance kits do have failsafes though. And from what ive read, it is the equivalent to running 100octane, only cleaner. so you will need a retune for 100octane

I spaced. Was stuck on the injectiona, forgot we were talking about spraying outside.

[JSRS6]

lol, its cool. it happens to the best of us...and duck-foot-rats! LMAO

[ben916]

Is there a way to measure the quantity/pattern of misting that you had, PAT?

Reading about the Aquamist module(s), there seems to be one that has a "safety".
There were several nozzles with various MM in diameter for different flow levels.

Where would Dave's nozzles go?
At the fog light grill?
At the IC shroud?
Directly on the IC?

How can we measure the temp diff between non-sprayed IC temps and sprayed IC temps?

[V8weight]

Is there a way to measure the quantity/pattern of misting that you had, PAT?

Reading about the Aquamist module(s), there seems to be one that has a "safety".
There were several nozzles with various MM in diameter for different flow levels.

Where would Dave's nozzles go?
At the fog light grill?
At the IC shroud?
Directly on the IC?

How can we measure the temp diff between non-sprayed IC temps and sprayed IC temps?The differences can be logged on the VAG-COM block 102 (intake air temperature). The snow performance kits are for actual methanol injection into the intake. We're talking about a simple nozzle pointed at the intercooler. There was nothing scientific about what they did at the dyno run. They literally just sprayed the intercoolers with a pump spray bottle of water. I wasn't watching myself as I was in the cars data logging, but maybe Kyle can elaborate.
Edti: I should also elaborate on the fact that they weren't spraying the intercoolers during the actual dyno run, they just sprayed them down before hand.

[ben916]

The differences can be logged on the VAG-COM block 102 (intake air temperature). The snow performance kits are for actual methanol injection into the intake. We're talking about a simple nozzle pointed at the intercooler. There was nothing scientific about what they did at the dyno run. They literally just sprayed the intercoolers with a pump spray bottle of water. I wasn't watching myself as I was in the cars data logging, but maybe Kyle can elaborate.
Edti: I should also elaborate on the fact that they weren't spraying the intercoolers during the actual dyno run, they just sprayed them down before hand.

did you log block 102?

a stage two of this could be to monitor the intake air temp and have a temp gauge on the dash...

edit: THIS thread and the results are very promising!

[V8weight]

did you log block 102?

a stage two of this could be to monitor the intake air temp and have a temp gauge on the dash...

edit: THIS thread and the results are very promising!
Unfortunately, you can only log 3 measuring blocks at a time on the vag. I was most concerned with MAF g/s, timing advance, and specified vs. actual boost (blocks 002, 003, 115) at the time of the dyno runs.

[V8weight]

did you log block 102?

a stage two of this could be to monitor the intake air temp and have a temp gauge on the dash...

edit: THIS thread and the results are very promising!
Your right, it would be cool to have an IAT gauge to monitor IAT temps. Dave: cue up the stage II kit....

[JSRS6]

Thanks Pat :-) I was talking about injection there for a sec with tt, as the aquamist is as well. Now that we are all on the same page ;-). Why not just do two separate tests? Both tests having the same starting values, i.e. ic temp, oil temp, basically the car warmed up, but not heated(yet...). Log 102, 002, 003, then once the beast is ready again, log 002, 003, 115.

[GEN XER]

I think these cars are closer to +25% driveline loss, if not higher...What do these cars make "stock"? 300-320 awhp depending on dyno? At 450crank hp thats 320/450=.71111. That's 29% there?

Yeap most AWD systems lose 30% of their crankcase HP. This is why Im keeping the build on my R32 swap FWD. Their is usually 10-12% loss on FWD trains. Of course Im going with the 6 speed O2M trans though.

[V8weight]

Thanks Pat :-) I was talking about injection there for a sec with tt, as the aquamist is as well. Now that we are all on the same page ;-). Why not just do two separate tests? Both tests having the same starting values, i.e. ic temp, oil temp, basically the car warmed up, but not heated(yet...). Log 102, 002, 003, then once the beast is ready again, log 002, 003, 115.
That's definitely doable, just not when the car is sitting on a dyno and there is a line of people waiting for their turn. I would say to just go out and log the benefits of spraying the intercoolers, blocks 003, 102, and 115 would be ideal. You would want to see the fluctuations in IAT's, timing advance, and boost, whereas the MAF g/s wouldn't be all that important.

[AUDI5000CSTQ]

Hi all,
Thought I would jump in on this one. I haven't been around for a while, not even lurking. Off buying another dental practice since the market has been going to $h*t.
As I referred to in the sportec mod, I've been running this misting system for years on my 86 5000cstq courtesy of home depot. (or an RV radiator misting system, pre made.)
Whats needed is an extra wiper reservoir with pump, gives it that OEM look, a patio misting system and a momentary switch. The switch is easy to place OEM in the 5000 dash, lots of dead switch spots.
Now the KEY for me was to place two misting heads in front of the radiator and one in front of my single IC.
When the car starts running hot after some spirited driving, up to the legally posted speed limit of course!
Hit the button for about 3-5 seconds, any longer and your watering the street and wasting your limited essence of life.
Within 30 seconds watch your engine temp drop one whole marking on the temp gage.
Your butt dyno and wallet dyno(less chance of damaging your engine) notices.
Just my .02 or at home depot about $15.00
You can see in the pictures after car was rear ended and sent into a tow truck,the hose and jet in front of the IC. Don't worry 2 years later and many more thousands the car was restored. 9898 9896 9897

http://www.rs6.com/images/misc/pencil.png

[4everRS]

Yup , watched them do it. Not scientific. They just took the nozzle and stuck it in the foglamp grill and started spraying. Saw them do it to a '09 WRX with the stock top mount IC (terrible design) as well, and it was pretty cool to watch it steam as it went on the next run.
The differences can be logged on the VAG-COM block 102 (intake air temperature). The snow performance kits are for actual methanol injection into the intake. We're talking about a simple nozzle pointed at the intercooler. There was nothing scientific about what they did at the dyno run. They literally just sprayed the intercoolers with a pump spray bottle of water. I wasn't watching myself as I was in the cars data logging, but maybe Kyle can elaborate.
Edti: I should also elaborate on the fact that they weren't spraying the intercoolers during the actual dyno run, they just sprayed them down before hand.

[JSRS6]

Yeap most AWD systems lose 30% of their crankcase HP. This is why Im keeping the build on my R32 swap FWD. Their is usually 10-12% loss on FWD trains. Of course Im going with the 6 speed O2M trans though.

I think we could get that number down a bit, i.e. transmission mounts, stabilizer bar, rear diff bushings...same thing i did with my S4, with the addition of motor mounts and snub mount. all autospeed competition urethane. Of course ALL those mounts do transmit alot of engine and gear noise...maybe we could just do the rear bushing and stabilizer bar...

[4everRS]

?? I have never heard of these items being important when figureing drivetrain loss ??
I think we could get that number down a bit, i.e. transmission mounts, stabilizer bar, rear diff bushings...same thing i did with my S4, with the addition of motor mounts and snub mount. all autospeed competition urethane. Of course ALL those mounts do transmit alot of engine and gear noise...maybe we could just do the rear bushing and stabilizer bar...

[JSRS6]

Most definitely. Any point along the path of the drivetrain where there is movement, i.e. mechanical vibration, there is loss back into the chassis. Therefore not to the ground. Actually, i have been curious whether the tranny mounts in my S4 will match up in the beast. They look the same....

[V8weight]

Without further adieu:
http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww228/Pellis833/get-attachmentaspx-2.jpg
Gobs of torque by 3500 rpm....

And here's Kyle's:
http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww228/Pellis833/KyleHoggarth.jpg

[skribe]

650+ lb/feet at the crank... good golly miss molly. How long do you think the TC will last at that clip? :applause:

[V8weight]

650+ lb/feet at the crank... good golly miss molly. How long do you think the TC will last at that clip? :applause:
Not sure, but rest assured when it goes this will be the first place I go to belly ache about it. :)

[JSRS6]

aghhhh, im drooling Pat. This is gonna happen. And ill get some BND from gen-xer. Being local to you will be nice for that. And of course we can go get a beer :-)

[DHall1]

She is a beauty of a lump. Thanks Cosworth and thanks quattro boys and girls.

As for TC its how you drive it. Most of the TC failures are the TC clutch material failure due to seal or oring failure. That comes from general use. IMHO

When this one blows, it will take the clutch packs in the transmission. That is when you call Tozo and build it stronger. IMHO


650+ lb/feet at the crank... good golly miss molly. How long do you think the TC will last at that clip? :applause:

[DHall1]

The proof

The puddin

How smooth the numbers. How smooth the torque curve. How big the hp number.


Without further adieu:
http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww228/Pellis833/get-attachmentaspx-2.jpg
Gobs of torque by 3500 rpm....

And here's Kyle's:
http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww228/Pellis833/KyleHoggarth.jpg

[V8weight]

Interesting that we both have that hump at about 4800rpm. What is that? Flux capacitor?

[DHall1]

Check the timing in the logs at that point.


Interesting that we both have that hump at about 4800rpm. What is that? Flux capacitor?

[DHall1]

Ok,

Here is my rant and wrench for the day. This is what I dont like about some vendors posting data and evidence of performance gains. I will attach the "advertised" dyno graph of a GIAC reflash. Someone tell me what is wrong with the pricture.

chicken dinners....on the line. Pat, you cant play because I already told you the answer.

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/03RSTT/RS6pics/rs6_91octane.jpg

[JSRS6]

...its TOO smooth and perfect...you NEVER see that.

[V8weight]

That's funny, I usually cannot draw lines that straight with my crayons...

[SAFE4NOW]

...its TOO smooth and perfect...you NEVER see that.

Dyno software includes " smoothing programs " for graphs.... The GIAC graph has been " smoothed " the other is raw data...

S

[DHall1]

Buzzzzz

Nope, nothing to do with how smooth the "graph" is.

Any other guesses?

This is very basic to understanding how and when a turbocharged engine develops power. Corky Bell


Dyno software includes " smoothing programs " for graphs.... The GIAC graph has been " smoothed " the other is raw data...

S

[4everRS]

WTF is this? Remember I was asking about this at the session. Something in-grained in the original tune that can't be completely eliminated?
Interesting that we both have that hump at about 4800rpm. What is that? Flux capacitor?

[V8weight]

WTF is this? Remember I was asking about this at the session. Something in-grained in the original tune that can't be completely eliminated?
Dave's right, (Pat ducks for cover as Dave's power grows stronger) It would appear that this is inherent in the timing map, a momentary 6-8 degree boost in timing advance. This was apparent in both your stock and my tuned ecu according to the data logs.

[V8weight]

Ok more to this theory, it would appear that when the car upshifts, it starts the next gear at approximately 4800rpm, are you following me? So I think Audi designed it so when the car upshifts, there is a momentary increase in timing at the designated 48oorpm to pull it out of the hole, since the boost is reduced by the tcu during the shift.

[DHall1]

At some point everyone will just take my word for things. It will save so much time and energy for the things that are really important.

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/03RSTT/Funny%20pics/dos-equis-the-most-interesting-man-.png


Dave's right, (Pat ducks for cover as Dave's power grows stronger) It would appear that this is inherent in the timing map, a momentary 6-8 degree boost in timing advance. This was apparent in both your stock and my tuned ecu according to the data logs.

[ben916]

To me, the TORQUE levels look wrong.
I agree there are gains but the number look short or off by about ±75

[DHall1]

Warm

What exactly is wrong with the torque numbers and why?


To me, the TORQUE levels look wrong.
I agree there are gains but the number look short or off by about ±75

[ben916]

Warm

What exactly is wrong with the torque numbers and why?

It looks like the graph is wonked up but I don't have a magnifying glass...

[DHall1]

Epic fail

Try again. All the information you need to solve the problem is visible in the chart.

[JSRS6]

the curves start too late, as in too high up in the rpm's

[V8weight]

the curves start too late, as in too high up in the rpm's
Extra crispy or original recipe?

[DHall1]

Again, warm.

So do you think this graph is real or a hack job?

Why would the curves start later? Did someone just draw lines on the chart? Which curve is worse and why?

What would explain the reason why the curve starts later? If you believe the chart is real.

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/03RSTT/RS6pics/rs6_91octane.jpg


the curves start too late, as in too high up in the rpm's

[JSRS6]

The fact that BOTH the stock and tuned curves start at the same time, says that it isnt kosher. The stock graph should start in the low 2000's, while the giac tune should start a little later, but build up higher. at least thats my understanding from owning a b5 s4...

[DHall1]

Its right in front of you. Read my questions again. Look at the graphs and ask can this really happen?

Peak torque. When does it occur? What the mechanical theory behind peak torque and why is that important? When does peak torque happen in the giac graph? Is that a problem to anyone? why? tell me.

[JSRS6]

torque early, horsepower late. it takes too long to build up.

[DHall1]

Nope, you are missing it. What makes torque? What is the single largest factor in making peak torque in this turbo platform?

Go look at Pat's graphs. Compare the two.


torque early, horsepower late. it takes too long to build up.

[JSRS6]

the actual boost produced. time it takes the turbos to spool up.

[DHall1]

Ding ding

Now what does it take to spool up the turbos? This is key


the actual boost produced. time it takes the turbos to spool up.

[JSRS6]

hot MAGMA...j/k
exhaust gases, and enough of it from the engine running at least at a certain speed.

[DHall1]

Ok,

So you have a closed wastegate in the turbo and exhaust gasses.

What makes the turbo spool faster? Say at 2200rpm. How can we get the turbo to spool faster?



hot MAGMA...j/k
exhaust gases, and enough of it from the engine running at least at a certain speed.

[JSRS6]

more a/f in, more exhaust out for a given rpm...

[JSRS6]

so timing and fueling

[DHall1]

Not really.

We want more exhaust flow. How are we going to get it? Increase in rpm yes....but how do we speed up this entire process to create a vicious cycle that starts to feed upon itself.


more a/f in, more exhaust out for a given rpm...

[JSRS6]

accelerate?

[DHall1]

Ding, ding

At the point of positive boost pressure you start to add fueling. This creates the vicious cycle and it starts to feed upon itself. Exhaust gets hotter and flows faster....turbine spins faster gets hotter....need more fuel at a faster rate to feed the monster....monster gets fuel and gets hotter......Bingo the turbo is lit and we are set for takeoff.

Now, look at that GIAC graph and tell me whats happening. Better yet, here is a GIAC tune and dyno run. What do you see

http://wheelsgallery.com/upload/rs6/intercooler/dyno.jpg


so timing and fueling

[ttboost]

Epic fail

Try again. All the information you need to solve the problem is visible in the chart.

Why do the TQ curves seem to start at exactly 225or so ft/lbs...TQ ramp looks wrong...

[DHall1]

Where the curve starts or ends has nothing to do with the problem. The information you need to solve the problem is in the graphs. The body of the curves tell the story. Compare and contrast to Pats chart. Something sticks out like a purple horse.


Why do the TQ curves seem to start at exactly 225or so ft/lbs...TQ ramp looks wrong...

[4everRS]

Pat and Dave,
After looking close at the logs and dyno graphs, I don't have 100% buy-in on the timing yet.

For example, on my second run, I have the "bump" in my dyno chart, but on the log, the timing is continuing to decrease.

Another observation - For both of our last runs (yours in green and mine in blue) we have the smoothest curves with the "bump" all but gone. I still have it a little in the tq line. Yours in eliminated in both.

Plus, the timing has many of these fluctuations throughout the run, with the bump at 4800 being the only variation like it.

Pat - the TCU theory makes some sense. Too bad we can't know what the TCU is "saying" at that time. Also too bad we don't have a log of your 3rd run.
Dave's right, (Pat ducks for cover as Dave's power grows stronger) It would appear that this is inherent in the timing map, a momentary 6-8 degree boost in timing advance. This was apparent in both your stock and my tuned ecu according to the data logs.

[4everRS]

Ok Dave, no chicken dinners. What is it that your seeing?
Where the curve starts or ends has nothing to do with the problem. The information you need to solve the problem is in the graphs. The body of the curves tell the story. Compare and contrast to Pats chart. Something sticks out like a purple horse.

[MaxRS6]

The increase of Pat's HP is smoother over a longer RPM period. The other one shows the HP being spiked within 1300 rpm and then flat lining across the remaining rpms. The HP on Giac increased faster than the tq increase on the up slope. Merely a visual observation and don't have a clue what is going on and just wanted to throw in a post to participate....;0

[SAF]

OK, this is beginning to resemble one of those "in front of class, not getting the answer" reoccurring nightmares I used to have.

Must Wake Up....don't like chicken that much....

[DHall1]

Guys,

Look at the point where the giac reaches peak torque. Then look at the point where Pats reaches peak torque. There is a rpm delay in the giac. Tell me why? We have already talked about what it takes to achieve peak torque and how to influence it. Then look at this giac chart below again. What is missing to achieve a better peak torque number that comes on sooner?

I may have to shoot this horse if you guys dont see it.




Ding, ding

At the point of positive boost pressure you start to add fueling. This creates the vicious cycle and it starts to feed upon itself. Exhaust gets hotter and flows faster....turbine spins faster gets hotter....need more fuel at a faster rate to feed the monster....monster gets fuel and gets hotter......Bingo the turbo is lit and we are set for takeoff.

Now, look at that GIAC graph and tell me whats happening. Better yet, here is a GIAC tune and dyno run. What do you see

http://wheelsgallery.com/upload/rs6/intercooler/dyno.jpg

[DHall1]

Here are pats graphs again. There are so many issues with the giac that I go over the entire rpm range and shoot holes in it. Look at the spike in giac hp at higher rpm in the dyno graph above and the giac ad below.....then look at pats graph and see how hp is maintained over the full rpm range as he reaches the higher rpms. Why is that? Its all tied together....the late onset of peak torque in the giac and the late spike in hp of the giac.

think

we could just start talking about ethanol.

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/03RSTT/RS6pics/rs6_91octane.jpg

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww228/Pellis833/get-attachmentaspx-2.jpg

[DHall1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA</EMBED>

[DHall1]

Nothing from the popcorn crowd?

Should we punt?

Give up?

Pay the "experts" at Autowerks?

Get the crayons out?

Lipstick for the pig?

[Casey]

im staring at these graphs and i dont know what is going on. i have minimal experience in this, and i am trying to learn just as much as i am trying to mod. I dont have a clue what i am looking for, but i want to learn as much as i can before i start screwing with things i dont understand.

so i cant offer up any useful insight, but i want to thank all you guys for doing this work, the trials and errors and all.

again, i cant offer any insight into whats going on, but i want to learn.

[DHall1]

I think we may have something. This also solves Skribe's need for BND proof that it works.

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/03RSTT/RS6pics/duckfootwing1.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxfAjAyp5k</EMBED>

[Casey]

okay, wild stab in the dark. is the GIAC run done in first gear, and the other runs done in 3rd, or up to third? and thats what accounts for the spike in HP?:vhmmm:

[DHall1]

No

Its not the car, not the gear, nothing to do with dyno operator or smooth graph.

My reply below is the closest we have gotten. Then gone off track. Focus back on the graph. What is wrong with one of the measured values that would cause this delay in torque.

Hello Newman!


Ding, ding

At the point of positive boost pressure you start to add fueling. This creates the vicious cycle and it starts to feed upon itself. Exhaust gets hotter and flows faster....turbine spins faster gets hotter....need more fuel at a faster rate to feed the monster....monster gets fuel and gets hotter......Bingo the turbo is lit and we are set for takeoff.

Now, look at that GIAC graph and tell me whats happening. Better yet, here is a GIAC tune and dyno run. What do you see

http://wheelsgallery.com/upload/rs6/intercooler/dyno.jpg

[ben916]

No

Its not the car, not the gear, nothing to do with dyno operator or smooth graph.

My reply below is the closest we have gotten. Then gone off track. Focus back on the graph. What is wrong with one of the measured values that would cause this delay in torque.

Hello Newman!

no closed loop?

[DHall1]

Is closed loop one of the values in the dyno graph?

NO its not

[4everRS]

A/F Ratio

[DHall1]

What is wrong with it and how does it explain the tq and hp curves that we are looking at?

cue up the chicken dinners Pat.


A/F Ratio

[4everRS]

Too lean on the low end - not?

[DHall1]

Yep,

And what about 6100 rpm? What finally happens at that point? and why does hp finally take a spike up?


Too lean on the low end - not?

[4everRS]

Th A/F ratio drops into a more reasonaable range. If you look at the A/F ration and hp and tq line - there is a negative correlation. The beast needs to be fed!

And now I do - when should I expect the chicken dinner?

[DHall1]

That is the moral of this story.

The beast needs to be fed. If you dont properly fuel the boost cycle you will not send the snails into a tizzy making boost. Sure, the boost will come but your power and torque will be reduced, you will run the chance of melting pistons, you will run so lean that literally over time the valves, rings and pistons will become brittle and finally metal fatigue will set in. boom.

Look at the RS6 members GIAC graph and where the torque finally peaks at 3900rpm. That is where the A/F finally comes close to providing enough fuel to begin the power delivery. Dont get me wrong, its still way too lean but its not by accident that the peak torque number happens right at the point where A/F finally delivers some fuel. Its also not by accident that the peak turbo boost hits at 3900. You finally started to give the engine some fuel. Ditto for the point at 6100, the A/F finally gets closer to where fuel should be and we see a nice spike in hp.

Any number of items could be causing the lean overall condition. But, if you go back to GIACs "advertised" dyno graph...it too has many of these same traits. Its actually worse where peak torque comes at 4300 which is a key sign of problems. So how do you explain it? Other GIAC cars are having a similar problem. How do you explain it?

.02c IMHO the GIAC table and fuel mapping is way off. Its literally dangerous to the point that engine damage can occur. Having tuned cars myself my gut is telling me that GIAC simply went in and cranked up the boost table (simplest task) and said presto. Here you go suckers. "you know the kind that are born every minute". Too bad really, its a shame that a company would put out a product like that and its also a shame that dealers such as 034 Motorsport that performed the dyno on this particular RS6 did not tell the owner of the issues. This GIAC deal is almost criminal its so bad.

There you go. No PC, no BS just chicken dinners for Kyle.

One last point. Some may ask .. "but Dave what is wrong with 15psi at 3900-4300rpm this tune calls for more boost. Wont it take longer to get to 15psi?" I can only tell you that when the timing/fuel/boost tables are properly calibrated you will make more power, faster, safer and enjoy keeping your engine intact for much longer.

Pat's car hits full boost and 15psi by....ready? Dont hold your breath....

3200rpm.

http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww228/Pellis833/get-attachmentaspx-2.jpg

That is why Pat's car makes power. That is why Eurocharged have done a fantastic job of developing this tune. And its a fraction of the GIAC price.

But hey, what do I know. I'm one of the suckers that buy BND products. Oh yeah as does Pat.

http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad348/03RSTT/RS6pics/snails_closeup1.gif


Th A/F ratio drops into a more reasonaable range. If you look at the A/F ration and hp and tq line - there is a negative correlation. The beast needs to be fed!

And now I do - when should I expect the chicken dinner?

[Casey]

This is very interesting, and pretty much convinced me to choose a Eurocharged tune over any of the other manufacturers.

[V8weight]

So Dave, let me get this straight. You're saying that a the inherent lean condition of the GIAC tune would cause a longer spool up time of the turbo's? So it would be safe to assume if you had a GIAC tune and it was taking too long to meet requested boost that it could be caused by this lean condition? And because the a/f ratio meets an acceptable criteria at higher rpms, that requested boost would be met faster at highway pulls compared to acceleration from a stop?

[DHall1]

Oh Pat,

The reason it spools faster at speed is the higher gear, higher load and higher exhaust flow to start the process. As I said, the turbos will finally reach peak boost due to the higher rpm creating a higher exhaust flow to drive the turbine housing. At no point in the GIAC dyno graph listed is the A/F ratio safe to run. GIAC have appeared to have produced an epic fail of a product for the RS6. Not only is it dangerous to run but its slow to boot.


So Dave, let me get this straight. You're saying that a the inherent lean condition of the GIAC tune would cause a longer spool up time of the turbo's? So it would be safe to assume if you had a GIAC tune and it was taking too long to meet requested boost that it could be caused by this lean condition? And because the a/f ratio meets an acceptable criteria at higher rpms, that requested boost would be met faster at highway pulls compared to acceleration from a stop?

[ben916]

But hey, what do I know. I'm one of the suckers that buy BND products. Oh yeah as does Pat.


Don't forget $hitty stock leaky intercoolers... :)

[DHall1]

There goes Ben to stir up the pot again.

Yes, Pat and I run the shitty stock intercoolers. You had to remind everyone didnt ya


Don't forget $hitty stock leaky intercoolers... :)

[ben916]

There goes Ben to stir up the pot again.

Yes, Pat and I run the shitty stock intercoolers. You had to remind everyone didnt ya

I am running the same shit also... Must be a Avus Silver thing... yo!

[4everRS]

Ok guys. Now that we have finally beaten the GIAC horse to death, Bumping this to get opinions. 3rd Run was good for both of us as far as the smoothing out of the hp and tq curves.

Also Dave, as your probably not busy doing anything else ;), do some research and post a video of the spray pattern of the patio misters. This may be the wrong thread for it though. I may want a couple of misters sent to me in lieu of that chicken dinner.
Pat and Dave,
After looking close at the logs and dyno graphs, I don't have 100% buy-in on the timing yet.

For example, on my second run, I have the "bump" in my dyno chart, but on the log, the timing is continuing to decrease.

Another observation - For both of our last runs (yours in green and mine in blue) we have the smoothest curves with the "bump" all but gone. I still have it a little in the tq line. Yours in eliminated in both.

Plus, the timing has many of these fluctuations throughout the run, with the bump at 4800 being the only variation like it.

Pat - the TCU theory makes some sense. Too bad we can't know what the TCU is "saying" at that time. Also too bad we don't have a log of your 3rd run.

[Casey]

I want to bring this back up again real quick. You guys have already steered me away from GIAC based on knowledge way beyond what i have. So i have been researching eurocharged, revo, and apr. Does APR fall into the same category as GIAC?

[V8weight]

No, APR is a good tune, just too damn expensive. It does offer more features, such as brake boosting, the ability to switch between programs, and they turn off the secondary o2 sensors should you ever do aftermarket downpipes. I don't need any of these features, so I opted for the Eurocharged tune for substantially less money. If you do go with the Eurocharged tune, make sure you purchase the 91 octane tune. The 93 octane file that I'm running will be a stage 2 tune from here on out as it exceeds the torque limits of both the stock and MTM tcu.

[Casey]

Great Pat, thanks as usual for all the info.

For the 93 octane/stage 2 tune, are there any options that are better to handle it than the MTM TCU? or do you need to start upgrading the internals of the trans at that point?

[V8weight]

Great Pat, thanks as usual for all the info.

For the 93 octane/stage 2 tune, are there any options that are better to handle it than the MTM TCU? or do you need to start upgrading the internals of the trans at that point?
The trans should be fine, it's just a matter of raising the specified torque limits in the tcu, beyond what the MTM chip provides. I'm looking into it, but haven't found any options as of yet. Eurocharged is looking into tuning the tcu's, but it's still in development. I'll definitely be posting up info as I gain it.

[ben916]

The trans should be fine, it's just a matter of raising the specified torque limits in the tcu, beyond what the MTM chip provides. I'm looking into it, but haven't found any options as of yet. Eurocharged is looking into tuning the tcu's, but it's still in development. I'll definitely be posting up info as I gain it.

I will throw this out there again:

How does MTM do it with 575HP tune?
How does Sportec do it with the RS600 tune?

Unless your HP/TQ levels are surpassing these tuners/companies....

[dab]

my apr tune was 2200 for chip and transmission

[4everRS]

Great question. One notable thing I see is that the torque of Pat's car far exceeds the torque of the APR tune. Anyone have a max torque spec for the MTM 575? Don't know about the RS600 tune though. APR's website says that the torque on 93 octane is 538ft./lbs. at the crank. Pat's car is doing 528 at the wheels.

Pat, what rpm is the "hiccup" happening at? Also, what throttle position do you most notice it at?
I will throw this out there again:

How does MTM do it with 575HP tune?
How does Sportec do it with the RS600 tune?

Unless your HP/TQ levels are surpassing these tuners/companies....

[ben916]

Great question. One notable thing I see is that the torque of Pat's car far exceeds the torque of the APR tune. Anyone have a max torque spec for the MTM 575? Don't know about the RS600 tune though. APR's website says that the torque on 93 octane is 538ft./lbs. at the crank. Pat's car is doing 528 at the wheels.

Pat, what rpm is the "hiccup" happening at? Also, what throttle position do you most notice it at?

I guess I will PM 10SecS4 for the answer on the RS600...
Where is Mr. Balsen's little finger for the MTM response??

[ttboost]

No offense to anyone here, but I wish people would stop quoting flywheel HP numbers, UNLESS you've actually engine dyno'd, kinda deceiving, getting peoples hopes up and all......again, no offense to anyone in particular. WHP on a particular dyno, easier to figure it out that way...or road performance numbers (ie, trap speed, Pbox numbers, etc...).

[4everRS]

Agreed. Makes it frustrating when the tuning companies only give flywheel numbers, i.e. did sportec really drop an RS6 engine to claim the 600 hp? Or are they just guessing what the drivetrain loss is?
No offense to anyone here, but I wish people would stop quoting flywheel HP numbers, UNLESS you've actually engine dyno'd, kinda deceiving, getting peoples hopes up and all......again, no offense to anyone in particular. WHP on a particular dyno, easier to figure it out that way...or road performance numbers (ie, trap speed, Pbox numbers, etc...).

[V8weight]

I will throw this out there again:

How does MTM do it with 575HP tune?
How does Sportec do it with the RS600 tune?

Unless your HP/TQ levels are surpassing these tuners/companies....
Per Mike Hoppen, the MTM 575hp cars use the very same tcu chip that he's selling us. My car is making far more torque than the MTM 575 at lower rpms. As for Sportec, I have no idea. I'm guessing they have their own tcu software that corresponds directly to their tune.

[sheatisdale]

I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. So here are some thoughts.

Patio Mister kit at Sams Club is $29.99 with like 12 or 17 nozzles.

Kits and electronics for water misting intercoolers are available for other cars. I have it on my Supra. $99 for everything.

Also, if you are going to do this, I recommend distilled water. Otherwise you can get a mineral build up over time.

4 part article on water spray. http://autospeed.co.nz/cms/article.html?&A=0527


On the transmission front, has anyone ever done a swap? Like for the 6 speed in the Cayenne?

[uncfrk]

Per Mike Hoppen, the MTM 575hp cars use the very same tcu chip that he's selling us. My car is making far more torque than the MTM 575 at lower rpms. As for Sportec, I have no idea. I'm guessing they have their own tcu software that corresponds directly to their tune.

Last Winter, after I sent my tcu to Hoppen, Mike called to inform me that it already had the giac mod. I had them change it to the MTM. I have the old Giac chip if anyone wants to play with it.

[V8weight]

Last Winter, after I sent my tcu to Hoppen, Mike called to inform me that it already had the giac mod. I had them change it to the MTM. I have the old Giac chip if anyone wants to play with it.
Hmm, I'll keep that in mind. James has a GIAC tuned RS6 here locally, and I been thinking about trying his tcu in my car when he gets back in town. If it makes a difference in my car, I may have to take you up on that. Thanks.

[ben916]

Per Mike Hoppen, the MTM 575hp cars use the very same tcu chip that he's selling us. My car is making far more torque than the MTM 575 at lower rpms. As for Sportec, I have no idea. I'm guessing they have their own tcu software that corresponds directly to their tune.

I had the DUH moment last night after I posted and figured out about the RS600 -> it's a 6 speed manual, no slushbox to tune...

[PALETTE]

Went the Dyno not impresive but with the conditions, No fans for Coolers, And Humid. I will take it and go back in the fall and see what she has. - Upgrades are Wanger coolers, Ace Converter, and Meth. Nothing else at this time till i feel like spending more money. But i have a Base now. All done with EPL tune. Thank you Tony :)11486

[JSRS6]

You need to log the car. The dip there could have been due to the conditions, but i doubt it.

[speedtrapped]

corey?, uhm are u keeping her?, If so glad to hear it

[PALETTE]

You need to log the car. The dip there could have been due to the conditions, but i doubt it.

Could be he forgot to turn of the traction control? Plus the set up was a bit Ghetto. in the corner of the shop, no airflow, no fans. nothing zip!


corey?, uhm are u keeping her?, If so glad to hear it

Yea i figure i spent alot on getting it fixed so i will, And wouldnt you know i get to the shop i have a leak in the DRC Line Passanger rear UGHHHHHH!!!!! When will it end

[speedtrapped]

Love dont come cheap....ask me how I know

[V8weight]

You need to log the car. The dip there could have been due to the conditions, but i doubt it.
All RS6's have that dip....Don't know the cause though. I'm thinking a valve timing.

[PALETTE]

on another note, Do we really need to run the Belly pan on these cars?

[ben916]

on another note, Do we really need to run the Belly pan on these cars?

If you want to be like all the COOL kids, then yes run it with the Sportec vent mod....

[PALETTE]

If you want to be like all the COOL kids, then yes run it with the Sportec vent mod....

LOL no i just want to know do i really have to use it?
I tore mine up and was not planning on replacing it unless i really have to. I think its useless other then keeping the bay clean.

[ben916]

not sure, but someone did say recently that they could hear the turbos slightly better with the tray off...

[V8weight]

LOL no i just want to know do i really have to use it?
I tore mine up and was not planning on replacing it unless i really have to. I think its useless other then keeping the bay clean.
It's a German car....it's only purpose is to keep leaking oil from hitting the ground...

[marklar182]

.....Not to mention it has scoops that direct airflow to that ticking time-bomb we call the transmission.

[JCviggen]

No offense to anyone here, but I wish people would stop quoting flywheel HP numbers, UNLESS you've actually engine dyno'd, kinda deceiving, getting peoples hopes up and all......again, no offense to anyone in particular. WHP on a particular dyno, easier to figure it out that way...or road performance numbers (ie, trap speed, Pbox numbers, etc...).

People should not look at dyno PEAK numbers period. Doesn't matter whether it's flywheel or wheel horsepower, 1 is not necessarily more accurate than the other. In order to compare anything it must be the same dyno anyhoo and then what does it matter. You can make 500whp peak at 4500 and a car that makes 450 peak at 5500 with a cleaner curve might be faster depending on what the rest of the rpm points are like.
I don't quite understand why the tuning scene insists on using a different ruler (whp) from what manufacturers quote (bhp) I'm guessing because dynoes that only do whp are vastly cheaper and got to be the standard by the sheer number of them around. The problem with wheel power is that it is influenced by a lot of variables, flywheel power is more of a constant. There are (expensive) dyno's that will be within a few horsepower accurate with flywheel numbers and give you the tire loss while you're at it if you want to see how much made it to the rollers. But anyway like I said peak values are fairly meaningless anyway. What would be useful is getting an average power value within a useful RPM range. That would give a very good idea of performance.
By the way, dynojet "wheel" power numbers are not really exactly what got measured at the wheels. There is a calculation in the DJ software that will add a percentage. It goes back to when it was created, when the numbers rolling out of it were a bit dissapointing to car owners who did not understand the engine power vs wheel power concept very well.


All RS6's have that dip....Don't know the cause though. I'm thinking a valve timing.

Can't speak for anyone else but mine certainly didn't - euro car. Not stock and not after it was mapped.

[ttboost]

All RS6's have that dip....Don't know the cause though. I'm thinking a valve timing.

Mine had it stock and has it now after flash. Haven't taken the time to figure out what it is yet...

[JSRS6]

Mine was there stock as well. Didn't notice it much tuned. Definitely wasn't pronounced like that.

[ttboost]

Mine was there stock as well. Didn't notice it much tuned. Definitely wasn't pronounced like that.

I wonder if it is just a little tranny slippage that we don't feel on the street? Although Corey has a brand new tranny & TC?

[PALETTE]

as i mentioned it may be the traction control?

[PALETTE]

when the weather is cooler out i do paln to go back and to a diffrent dyno that has a fan set up and see if that helps out at all. I also will wait for the cooler weather and hit the track just to baseline the car.

[ttboost]

Any dyno tuner that doesn't turn traction control off is..well anyway...cooler weather...don't be a wuss...

[PALETTE]

Any dyno tuner that doesn't turn traction control off is..well anyway...cooler weather...don't be a wuss...


I told ya Getto!!! Trust me i would be better on the road with the Vbox! or the Ipad app. Wuss?? for real....... I have gone down the track with the A/C on its just not funning beating on a car in 70-80% humid days and when its 90+ outside