My RS6 is having an identity crisis! VAG experts please read [Archive] - RS6.com

Mikk23

May 14th, 2010, 20:24

Ok...please excuse the new thread but I've just about got this thing licked and wanted this to get some attention vs being buried at the bottom of that SAI thread.

According to my VAG engine output tests, my car thinks that the SAI solenoid vavle (N112) is the Boost pressure control valve (N249) and vice versa. This would explain my "limp mode" issues as the diverter valves are probably stuck open, venting all my boost, and my lack of flow to the SAI because the combo valves are stuck closed. As soon as my car has cooled off enough to allow the SAI to kick on during start up, I've already connected my SAI solenoid valve to the connector for the N249 valve so as a last test I'll see if it actuates while the SAI pump is on. But I'm 95% sure this is my problem...somehow it has some sort of internal address error for the connectors going to these two items. I do know that a shop had the intake manifold off a couple months ago...but it doesn't look like there is enough cable to get these to connectors mixed up. At least looking at it with the manifold on it looks that way.

Is there a way to reprogram this with VAG or do I need my ECU reflashed? Any ideas? Thanks!

V8weight

May 14th, 2010, 20:51

Far out! Try disconnecting your battery and resetting the ECU, then after your cool down period, recheck readiness.

Mikk23

May 14th, 2010, 20:57

Not to sound foolish...but how do you "reset" the ecu? Just clear the dtc's ? I'm ready to give it a shot lol.

V8weight

May 14th, 2010, 21:04

Not to sound foolish...but how do you "reset" the ecu? Just clear the dtc's ? I'm ready to give it a shot lol.
No, just unplug the battery for a few minutes while you enjoy a cold Grainbelt Nordeast, then plug it back in and turn the key to the on position and allow the ecu to go through it's adaption process ( takes about a minute) Then retest.

Mikk23

May 14th, 2010, 21:11

I can handle that...to bad the FedEx guy literally just walked into my garage and handed me my new flapper motor and brake light switch lol. Back to work!

JRS-RS6

May 14th, 2010, 21:59

No, just unplug the battery for a few minutes while you enjoy a cold Grainbelt Nordeast, then plug it back in and turn the key to the on position and allow the ecu to go through it's adaption process ( takes about a minute) Then retest.

Either one should work I would think.

Mikk23 please post the log your VAG-COM showed. If you need a vacuum diagram I can look it up and send it to your private e-mail -- it sounds more like the electrical is right but the vacuum lines are not to me. Just a thought since you asked.

Mikk23

May 14th, 2010, 22:21

Well...my vacuum lines are laid out exactly like Aronis's are and I've found a few diagrams and familiarized myself enough with how the system works to be pretty confident that they are correct. I can't post you logs. I went and selected the engine module and then went to the 'output tests.' In this mode it goes through just about ever solenoid, fan, and pump there is on the engine...and turns them on/actuates them.

When it got to the SAI solenoid Valve (N112) and I told it to activate, the Boost pressure control valve is what started clicking...shown here:

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss35/mikk23/IMAG0021.jpg

And when I got to the Boost pressure control valve (N249)...the SAI solenoid started to click...shown here:

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss35/mikk23/IMAG0022.jpg

Which is obviously totally backwards. Just now I started the car cold and connected my SAI solenoid to where the boost control valve is supposed to go...and behold...it actuated with the SAI pump. So they are backwards and unfortunately a battery/ecu reset didn't do the trick. Any ideas on how to tell the computer to switch the two "addresses" so to speak to get this fixed?

skribe

May 14th, 2010, 22:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSAXLayoMKI

Mikk23

May 14th, 2010, 22:27

The car has an EPL ecu flash/chip...the vacuum lines go from the T just after the N249 like you can see in the pictures...to the N112...to another T at the back of the intake manifold where it splits to either combo valve. Everything looks good. Unless the Vag software is wrong (I suppose thats possible...anyone want to plug into their RS6 and run a similar test? It would take 5 minutes to see if what actuates coordinates with the displayed component on the screen)...they are backwards somehow.

skribe

May 14th, 2010, 22:31

I would, broseph, but I'm riding a train right now and my beast is currently hurt and getting a new body panel. :(
So instead, you just get a "great googly moogly" and a "not going anywhere for awhile?"

Mikk23

May 14th, 2010, 22:37

lol :D I feel ya...anyone else have any ideas? It doesn't look like the connectors would reach far enough to be hooked up backwards...but its hard to tell with the manifold in place.

JRS-RS6

May 14th, 2010, 22:46

Hmm -- Pat has my VAG but no ECU and I have my car but no VAG Cable. You will have to wait unless someone else can respond. What version of Software are you running on the VAG-COM so we can eliminate that first?

Mikk23

May 14th, 2010, 22:50

I thought of that too and updated today...908.2...is it possible for these cables to be hooked up backwards? I there enough slack with the manifold off?

JRS-RS6

May 14th, 2010, 22:56

OK we have 908.2 on Pat's laptop and I am running 10.3 Beta on mine -- so when we can coordinate at least we can use the same software.

JRS-RS6

May 14th, 2010, 23:08

Hmmm -- my car used to fail secodary air readiness but since I updated to 10.3 Beta it is passing. Maybe, just maybe the outputs are backwards in 908.2.

Try 10.3 to see if it behaves differently: http://download.ross-tech.com/VCDS/download/B100x/VCDS-Beta-10.30-Installer.exe

NOTE: You may need to uninstall the USB Driver from Device Manager and let the new program install its driver. I had this issue with my laptop.

Once you do this let us know what you find. If needed tomorrow AM I can take my car to Pat's and manually activate N112 and N249 to see what my car does.

Mikk23

May 15th, 2010, 02:11

Ok...after installing the new flapper and brake switch...the car was cool enough to start and kick on the secondary air. IT IS BACKWARDS! how....I dunno. I noticed in the output tests they were backwards according to vagcom (I did try 10.3 just to make sure).

To test my theory I pulled the vacuum lines off the SAI solenoid valve, disconnected it, and removed it. I then disconnected the boost reg valve (N249) and pulled the electrical plug up just enough to be able to connect the SAI valve in its place. I hooked a piece of vacuum hose to it and blew into it...closed. Started the car cold...made sure the SAI system kicked in...and blew into the hose. OPEN....stayed open until the SAI pump shut off...it closed at the same time. So...my diverter valves are stuck open...and my combo valves are stuck closed. Both of my issues come down to this madness. It doesn't look possible that it is could have been crossed during some previous maintenance. The way the cables are bundled together...it just wouldn't reach to get them mixed up.

Is there a way to correct this with VAG? Reprogram the computer to tell it where the components are...or do I need a EPU flash? I could come up with a home remedy to splice and lengthen the cables to be able to cross over to one another maybe? I have no idea how to tackle this one...this is some voodoo shenanigans...and I'm all outta pixie dust :vhmmm:

JRS-RS6

May 15th, 2010, 02:30

Erik -- try e-mailing Ross Tech and checking their Wiki links maybe someone there can help with your last question. I am still trying to process how this could even be possible. Good work so far from the way it sounds.

skribe

May 15th, 2010, 03:24

Maybe an amateur "tuner" hacked and hosed the code in your ECU?

JRS-RS6

May 15th, 2010, 04:01

Look at pages 12 and 13 of the wiring diagram I sent you. The odd thing is the wire colors according to the diagram are NOT the same. Looking at ETKA parts there is an adapter on the harness for N249. Maybe this is not connected correctly at the other end?

DHall1

May 15th, 2010, 05:28

Ok,

My .05c

This is that GoMotors car right? I think we know why it sat on their lot for over a year. This is also why we say drive the car before buying it.

Now on topic, I would say there is no way the VAG can reprogram those two components. It may have happened with the tune but that a long shot. The reflash process is like your USPS clerk at the post office when they put mail in the PO boxes. The proper data is inserted into each PO box and the the clerk moves to the next hole. I guess it could have happened that the PO boxes were mixed up but I really doubt it. The higher chance is the plugs crossed during intake removal. Can you shine a light under the intake and use mirrors to peek under there?

ben916

May 15th, 2010, 06:22

Ok,

Now on topic, I would say there is no way the VAG can reprogram those two components. It may have happened with the tune but that a long shot. The reflash process is like your USPS clerk at the post office when they put mail in the PO boxes. The proper data is inserted into each PO box and the the clerk moves to the next hole. I guess it could have happened that the PO boxes were mixed up but I really doubt it. The higher chance is the plugs crossed during intake removal. Can you shine a light under the intake and use mirrors to peek under there?

I agree on NOT reprogramming or attempting to reprogram the ECU to handle the differences between the two.

so you do or you don't have the VAGCOM latest/greatest version installed?

Process of elimination for me would be:
1. check my buddy's RS6 with my VAGCOM - same results?
2. check my car with my buddy's VAGCOM - same results?
3. check the intake like Dave (DHall1) suggested.
4. check the connectors between the N112 and N249; do they look the same? could an idjut shove the round peg in the square hole?
5. OK, I am reaching and thinking WAY out of the box here, Get that unknown rogue flashed ECU to stock... Eliminate what you CAN'T see...

BTW, what the hell are the brown wires to each of the items in question? Does the brown wire connect somewhere and then are crossed?

Looking at ETKA7 illustration 133-40... just shows plumbing not wiring... at least for me...

Mikk23

May 15th, 2010, 06:22

Too bad the car's already mine eh? I'm over it...time to iron out the wrinkles.

I could call EPL on monday and see what they say as far as the reflash messing things up...but I dont see that going very far. I put serious thought into the wires possibly getting crossed...but look at these pictures:

The N249 connector disappears down the rabbit hole...and even with my borescope it was quite difficult to follow
http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss35/mikk23/IMAG0025.jpg

But the N112...You can't really mess this one up. With the way the harness is laid out...theres no where else it could go...and no way it could reach the components it needs to get to on the passenger side and still span the foot to the 249 valve.
http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss35/mikk23/IMAG0024.jpg

My only other thought is maybe the harness itself was replaced at some point and was put together wrong out of the box...its looking like the easiest solution is to fabricate extensions and spice them in to be able to bridge the gap and make the harness reach the proper components. Still doesn't seem right by any means.

Mikk23

May 15th, 2010, 06:47

I agree on NOT reprogramming or attempting to reprogram the ECU to handle the differences between the two.

so you do or you don't have the VAGCOM latest/greatest version installed?

Process of elimination for me would be:
1. check my buddy's RS6 with my VAGCOM - same results?
2. check my car with my buddy's VAGCOM - same results?
3. check the intake like Dave (DHall1) suggested.
4. check the connectors between the N112 and N249; do they look the same? could an idjut shove the round peg in the square hole?
5. OK, I am reaching and thinking WAY out of the box here, Get that unknown rogue flashed ECU to stock... Eliminate what you CAN'T see...

BTW, what the hell are the brown wires to each of the items in question? Does the brown wire connect somewhere and then are crossed?

Looking at ETKA7 illustration 133-40... just shows plumbing not wiring... at least for me...

Sorry...guess we were posting at the same time...I'm just going to go down your list:

Yes, I'm using the latest/greatest vagcom software version
1&2. JRS-RS6 is gong to run the output tests for me on his car tomorrow...I dont have any friends in the area with an RS6 or a vagcom...they all borrow mine...my vagcom that is :D lol.
3. As I mentioned earlier...it looks impossible that the harness could be routed incorrectly...look at the pics for yourself and see if you agree...maybe I'm not seeing it correctly.
4. Yes...they are exactly the same connector. That is how I was able to determine that it wasn't vagcom and is in fact my car. I removed the SAI valve and hooked it up to the 249's lead and started the car. It switched the vavle open until the SAI pump shut down...it closed at the same time...just like it should if working properly...just in the wrong darn spot. Which also explains why I'm getting no boost...if the 249 thinks its the SAI valve.
5. I'm not sure how to reflash stock...but that would be in essence throwing away the EPL tune correct? I agree its an option but an expensive one.

I think those brown wires are knock sensors but I'm not sure...haven't had the car long enough to really know my way around it yet. They are on each side and go to some sort of sensor and straight to the wire harness bundle...so not a factor.

As far as pages 12/13 go...I see what your talking about T2do and p...not sure what they are...but I did check both wires in each plug for continuity and they were good...and they do actuate the valves when triggered by vag...just no the correct valves...either way they are hooked up. I'm still starting to think the easiest fix is going to be a homebrewed splice to run the harness to the correct valve. Just seems a bit too extreme for me to throw caution to the wind and bust out the solder you know?

ben916

May 15th, 2010, 07:10

3. As I mentioned earlier...it looks impossible that the harness could be routed incorrectly...look at the pics for yourself and see if you agree...maybe I'm not seeing it correctly.
4. Yes...they are exactly the same connector. That is how I was able to determine that it wasn't vagcom and is in fact my car. I removed the SAI valve and hooked it up to the 249's lead and started the car. It switched the vavle open until the SAI pump shut down...it closed at the same time...just like it should if working properly...just in the wrong darn spot. Which also explains why I'm getting no boost...if the 249 thinks its the SAI valve.
5. I'm not sure how to reflash stock...but that would be in essence throwing away the EPL tune correct? I agree its an option but an expensive one.

Ok, I shut down my ETKA as I was going dizzy looking/searching... It looks like both are two pin plugs, at least that is what I read on ETKA.
What if they incorrectly plugged into the bus board? Meaning not at the N112/N249 end but at the other end? Unless it connected directly via harness to ECU... I couldn't quite tell...

If you have to splice to make it work, ya gotta do whatcha gotta do...

Mikk23

May 15th, 2010, 07:24

Bus board...is worth a look before I start slicing and dicing...any idea where that is at? Up under the dash somewhere or in the engine compartment close to the ECM? I really appreciate everyone's time and effort...I feel you on the dizzy from looking/searching. I've have been at it all day. I think I'm gonna follow suite and hit the hay...shut my brain down for a bit.

JRS-RS6

May 15th, 2010, 12:53

JRS-RS6

May 15th, 2010, 13:40

Ok -- too much to comment on above with quotes. Just getting up and only one cup of coffee so far. The Brown wires you refered to are the knock sensors G61, G66, and also there is G198 on page 10.

The Wiring Diagram shows both sensors N112 and N249 connect back to J220 (ECU Directly) Pins 44 and 9 respectively. The likelyhood of them being swapped at J220 is nearly zero unless the car came that way from day one. Just to get the connector off requires removing two security bolts and sliding off a cover for the ECU which is harder than it sounds. Possible maybe -- probable NOT. To repin these would in my opinion not be an optimal solution.

ETKA 971-60 is the Harness Engine Compartment (Electrical) and is pretty lame (bad picture connections not clear as to what they connect to) except that it shows the two pin connectors 19 which are used all over the place (I count at least 18) and that both of these connections use these (notes on right with PNs) and also shows that there is an adapter wiring harness bypass air cut-off valve (seperate PN). So there is an extension (2do and 2dp in the Wiring Diagram on page 13) that goes to N249 that plugs into another 2 pin connector. So where does it plug into the harness because that one should be N112 (based on your troubleshooting so far) and the extension should plug into what is connected to N112 now -- correct? Now here is the key to this -- I think: The connector that 2do and 2dp plugs into (just like 2do and 2dp) should have gn/bl (green/blue) not li/ge (violet/yellow) the common line for both N112 and N249 is gn/ge (green/yellow) and goes back to D22 (Connector over fuse 234 front right) for both.

Look for the connector with the green/blue wire for N249. From what I see in the wiring diagram so far this color combination is unique (in a two pin connector anyway since blue/green is used on the MAFs).

Another option if you are sure these are reversed and they won't reach is to order two extensions PN 4B7971379C genuine says there $43.56 each and use these to cross them. This at least would be fairly clean.

I am sending you a screen shot of ETKA for reference.

p3u just had his intake manifold off but apperently is traveling at the moment. p3u any input????

JRS-RS6

May 15th, 2010, 16:00

OK -- ran Digital Out test using 10.3 and my car and sure enough N112 and N249 activate properly.

DHall1

May 15th, 2010, 17:58

Well,

This very well could be a EPL issue. If the wires were not switched as the pictures show.....there is a very good chance the EPL "postal sorter" screwed up. Sorry to use the USPS analogy but it does fit the process.

I think GoMotors needs to make this right. Some heads need to roll here.

If my postman or postal sorter is your tuner you are screwed dude. :) I get other peoples mail (meaning the address is obviously wrong) almost every other day.

DHall1

May 15th, 2010, 18:05

Thinking along the lines of the EPL issue.

One solution could be to send the ECU to Eurocharged. Then can wipe the EPL off and start from scratch. Flash to stock then flash to Eurocharge tune. 600 bucks is a good deal. You eliminate the ?? inside the ECU and can move on with a nice reflash that makes good power.

Mikk23

May 15th, 2010, 21:17

Hey guys...thanks for all the research. Just got done selling my 135 gallon reef tank...boy was that a pain to get out of the house. I'm thinking the extensions might be a good start...I'll call EPL on monday and ask them about they're tune before I fork out another hundred bucks. I agree that go motors needs to pay for this...I'm working on that part. Is Eurocharged the way to go? What about the revo tune a lot of people talk about? If I send my ecm out I might as well get the MTM trans chip done while I'm at it I suppose. Gotta weigh my options here. Has anyone had any experience with EPL tunes? Are they garbage? Here is a copy of the dyno sheet they sent me when I called them a few weeks back. I was curious about their tune and emailed them for more info. Retail price was around 1400 bucks. I don't have anything to compare this too...so what do you guys think?

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss35/mikk23/rs6_chipped.jpg

DHall1

May 16th, 2010, 06:39

.05c

That dyno graph is a crock of you know what. If anyone with EPL can verify such a graph I will eat my left shoe.

Does the EPL replace the chip or reflash?

Revo is a good choice as is Eurocharged. I do know for a fact that Eurocharged can erase a xyz tune and reflash back to stock. Then load the Eurocharged files. IMHO that is the way to go. If your mailboxes were F'ed up by EPL then you need a company that can take it back to stock then load the proper sequence of data.

Now, if Revo can do the same....then Revo would also be a good decision.

Let us know how it goes with GoMofo's. They push a ton of Audi products and if they dont stand behind this sale they deserve to have the car shoved back in their pie hole.

Hey guys...thanks for all the research. Just got done selling my 135 gallon reef tank...boy was that a pain to get out of the house. I'm thinking the extensions might be a good start...I'll call EPL on monday and ask them about they're tune before I fork out another hundred bucks. I agree that go motors needs to pay for this...I'm working on that part. Is Eurocharged the way to go? What about the revo tune a lot of people talk about? If I send my ecm out I might as well get the MTM trans chip done while I'm at it I suppose. Gotta weigh my options here. Has anyone had any experience with EPL tunes? Are they garbage? Here is a copy of the dyno sheet they sent me when I called them a few weeks back. I was curious about their tune and emailed them for more info. Retail price was around 1400 bucks. I don't have anything to compare this too...so what do you guys think?

http://i559.photobucket.com/albums/ss35/mikk23/rs6_chipped.jpg

DHall1

May 16th, 2010, 06:49

Real deal. This is a members car on the dyno with the real graph from the same session.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGs7fbTlX7w&feature=player_embedded

http://www.eurocharged.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_new.tpl&product_id=157&category_id=33&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=99

</EMBED>

Mikk23

May 16th, 2010, 18:10

I agree that I should make the "gomofo's" (nice ring to it) pay for their shadiness. So you think EPL is full of crap? Is the 20 extra tq and 7 hp vs the eurocharged dyno run you linked not possible? I honestly have no idea as I've been an RS6 owner for a month now lol. I talked to EPL when I first purchased the car and they said it was a flash and not a chip...I haven't looked to verify though.

So yesterday afternoon, without cutting the origional harness, I spliced in some wire between the connectors and jumped them to one another. I know everyone has been telling all along but...this car is pretty ridiculous when its running like its suppose to. I made a left turn on to a stretch of highway...mashed the gas...traction light started flashing at me as I pulled through the turn...straightened out...and it was weird...all the sudden I was doing 85 in a 55 and grinning from ear to ear lol. Holy crap!

I'm still confused by this "PO Box" mix up...I'm going to start by calling EPL...then pester the gomofo's some more and see what they are going to do about it. We'll see how it goes...I'll keep you apprised!

Aronis

May 16th, 2010, 20:03

I vote this thread as thread of the year!

WOW..I can't wait for the end of the story!

Mike

DHall1

May 16th, 2010, 21:12

The graph picture is fake. That is my problem with the EPL. You will not see such a hp gain at redline. Or if you do....the turbine housings are glowing past red if you understand my point. Lastly, I would not want that tune if that is the graph and the turbine housing are melting.

I never compare apples to french fries with dyno graphs. 2 days and two different operators. That EPL graph looks doctored. Thats all.

Just like the Wagner ICs graph. Doctor graph maker was busy at work.

Given what you just explained about the splice job. I guess the mailboxes were screwed up.

Decision time for you.

I agree that I should make the "gomofo's" (nice ring to it) pay for their shadiness. So you think EPL is full of crap? Is the 20 extra tq and 7 hp vs the eurocharged dyno run you linked not possible? I honestly have no idea as I've been an RS6 owner for a month now lol. I talked to EPL when I first purchased the car and they said it was a flash and not a chip...I haven't looked to verify though.

So yesterday afternoon, without cutting the origional harness, I spliced in some wire between the connectors and jumped them to one another. I know everyone has been telling all along but...this car is pretty ridiculous when its running like its suppose to. I made a left turn on to a stretch of highway...mashed the gas...traction light started flashing at me as I pulled through the turn...straightened out...and it was weird...all the sudden I was doing 85 in a 55 and grinning from ear to ear lol. Holy crap!

I'm still confused by this "PO Box" mix up...I'm going to start by calling EPL...then pester the gomofo's some more and see what they are going to do about it. We'll see how it goes...I'll keep you apprised!

ben916

May 17th, 2010, 05:31