Detailed differences between the RS4 and the RS5 engine?

[Erik]

Can anyone here give us a detailed differences between the RS4 and the RS5 engine?

I know more people than I have the same question. Anyone with a reply?

[Fab]

Let me start by making a (bad) joke but lets hope the 450hp are really there...

That is the main difference I want to see vs B7 RS4.

If this number is real then the car price will be entirely justified and Audi will sell one more :deal:

[Sims]

Let me start by making a (bad) joke but lets hope the 450hp are really there...

That is the main difference I want to see vs B7 RS4.

If this number is real then the car price will be entirely justified and Audi will sell one more :deal:

Good point, we all hope the power is there and this is not just marketing.:)

Whereas the RS4 is in the past a bit, an owner of an RS5 could insist on a certificate of the engine on the dyno and on the chassis that he could compare to later on rolling road elsewhere (subject of course to slight differences on different rolling roads.

[Fab]

Nobody will ever get any power certification, but some few dynos will immediately show how much is left under the bonnet. Another obvious immediate indication will be the first accurate chrono measures.

Lets keep fingers crossed and fasten our seatbelt. :incar: :revs:

[iconcls]

Stephan Reil, R&D chief in charge of all Audi RS and R models, explains:
The engine for the RS5 was practically developed from scratch. It develops more power and torque than the outgoing unit, yet it uses twenty percent less fuel. Although the redline was pushed up to 8500 rpm, maximum torque, an identical 317 lb-ft is now available between a less hectic 4000 and 6000 rpm. Engineering highlights include a two-mode intake manifold with tumble blades, variable intake and exhaust timing, and a multimode exhaust system. To trim parasitic losses, Audi reduced piston friction, lightened the DOHC valvetrain, and fitted a variable-output oil pump. A regenerative braking system increases alternator output during deceleration and reduces its output during normal driving.

[Sims]

Stephan Reil, R&D chief in charge of all Audi RS and R models, explains:
The engine for the RS5 was practically developed from scratch. It develops more power and torque than the outgoing unit, .

Yes I read that, just not sure what that is supposed to mean. Did they take the RS4 unit and tweak it, or the 4.2 Unit and develop it? Or is it the R8 V10 engine with 2 less cylinders?

[Fab]

Stephan Reil, R&D chief in charge of all Audi RS and R models, explains:
The engine for the RS5 was practically developed from scratch. It develops more power and torque than the outgoing unit, yet it uses twenty percent less fuel. Although the redline was pushed up to 8500 rpm, maximum torque, an identical 317 lb-ft is now available between a less hectic 4000 and 6000 rpm. Engineering highlights include a two-mode intake manifold with tumble blades, variable intake and exhaust timing, and a multimode exhaust system. To trim parasitic losses, Audi reduced piston friction, lightened the DOHC valvetrain, and fitted a variable-output oil pump. A regenerative braking system increases alternator output during deceleration and reduces its output during normal driving. Well... very interesting and promising. I am the first one willing to have it a proven blast....

[Mr Balsen]

my little finger was told at Ingolstadt that Engineering from the latest version of the Gallardo Engine was used in the RS5 Engine...

[Fab]

my little finger was told at Ingolstadt that Engineering from the latest version of the Gallardo Engine was used in the RS5 Engine... Mr. Balsen, as usual I love your little finger.... Cheers

[AndyBG]

Hey Fab...! Long time no see!

How are you...!?

BTW, more air for RS 5s engine is something that will for sure be a benefit over B7 RS 4s engine...

[Mr Balsen]

More specifically the cylinder head is coming from the latest Gallardo Engine. Nothing in common from the RS4 V8...

[Fab]

Hey Fab...! Long time no see!

How are you...!?

BTW, more air for RS 5s engine is something that will for sure be a benefit over B7 RS 4s engine...Hey Andy what's up !? Good to see you as well... I am doing great and I am getting a big need for a new Audi RS...5. I have been missing my RS4 and its time to get back to (RS) business. Alwas reeding RS6.com but less active...until now at least. Looking forward to exchanging views with all of the old RS6 guys again.

All the best and give it more air i.e. more power :-)))

[Fab]

More specifically the cylinder head is coming from the latest Gallardo Engine. Nothing in common from the RS4 V8...All this sounds good but remains on paper (I fully believe your inside infos of course) so let's go back to chrono figures : 0-100km/h in 4.6sec, 0-200km/h in 15.5sec is the official Audi figures right ?

If these numbers are easily confirmed and even sightly improved in upcoming (real) test drive then I will change my avatar for shure....

What do you guys think or better know (Mr. Balsen, Qisha, Kreso, Eric, ...) ??? Come on give us some more flavor on the rea car chrono perfs:revs::revs::revs:

The last think I want to see on youtube is the usual Gustav vids showing an M3 kicking RS5 ass on a roll start (if you know what I mean...)

[Qisha]

The last think I want to see on youtube is the usual Gustav vids showing an M3 kicking RS5 ass on a roll start (if you know what I mean...)

Dear Fab,

this is not going to happen. :race:

Qisha

[KresoF1]

All this sounds good but remains on paper (I fully believe your inside infos of course) so let's go back to chrono figures : 0-100km/h in 4.6sec, 0-200km/h in 15.5sec is the official Audi figures right ?

If these numbers are easily confirmed and even sightly improved in upcoming (real) test drive then I will change my avatar for shure....

What do you guys think or better know (Mr. Balsen, Qisha, Kreso, Eric, ...) ??? Come on give us some more flavor on the rea car chrono perfs:revs::revs::revs:

The last think I want to see on youtube is the usual Gustav vids showing an M3 kicking RS5 ass on a roll start (if you know what I mean...)

Hmm.... Do you remember official R8 V8 0-200km/h number? 14.9s... NONE of the car magazines could reach that number... Fastest was Auto Bild Sportcars edition with 15.1s...
R8 V10 on the other hand matched official 12.3s(manual)/12.0s(R Tronic). In fact in most magazines manual R8 V10 was faster then R Tronic version. Here as well as in current RS6 case Audi delivered.

RS5 0-200km/h in 15.5s? With real weight close to 1800kg(DRC, Navi, B&O, etc)? So, it should be 4s faster in 0-200km/h then S5 SB which is tested lately by Auto Bild(19.1s) and AMS(19.6s). Since weight will be more or less within 30kgs(S5 SB haevier) do your math... S5 SB 333ps/440Nm and S Tronic = 19.1s for 0-200km/h... RS5 450ps/430Nm and S Tronic = 15.5s for 0-200km/h...

Everything is depending how good LC in RS5 is. If it is as good as LC on Porsche's PDK RS5 will reach 0-200km/h in 15.5s or even little bit faster.

Will it be enough to win over M3 with M DKG? I am not totally sure... Why? M3 M DKG is faster in 0-250km/h then R8 V8.

[Sims]

Dear Fab,

this is not going to happen. :race:

Qisha


Tell us more..... how much quicker is it at the 'ring than the E92 M3?

And if I may repeat Erik's question:

Can anyone here give us a detailed differences between the RS4 and the RS5 engine?

I know more people than I have the same question. Anyone with a reply?

There are a lot of people who question whether the RS4 ever made the 420ps, so these concerns do need addressing. How is this engine different?
Thanks.

[Fab]

Dear Fab,

this is not going to happen. :race:

QishaDear Qisha : For many of us this will be (or is as I trust you) a major achievement.

Not that I want to kick bimmers daily (I am too old for that…) but this should be the case i.e. more power, close power/weight ratio, new technology, blabla, blabla… Or at least be even but not as bad as the B7 who got a pretty poor result (at that time I was mad about it…).


This global question mark also refers to Kreso below answer about real chronos to be achieved.

This is the biggest unknown as some RS/R8/R8v10 achieve online or quicker times and some slower times.

To me 4.6sec should be achieved easily with killing the machine or setting the whole think during minutes on the MMI… also the 10.9sec from 100-200km/h should be real or better as this is slightly than the average time of a 997 CS/C4S…

Let’s be clear : I am not the type of mad guy willing to enter into play with any sport car I meet on the street, but hey come on, 450cv should make it and we pay for that (quite a lot actually).

And considering that the torque is not hudge (which is totally normal with high rev engine) you have to be pushing it hard to keep up with any equivalent car (or big diesels) that probably have more torque anyway so if on top you lag your real horse power then you are dead and I personally will never buy such scenario. There are plenty of other candidates that I could consider (with regret of course but still…).

I am quite mad obout this unknown let’s hope it get cleared the right way very soon so that I/we start enjoying the new beast !!!!

[Fab]

Since weight will be more or less within 30kgs(S5 SB haevier) do your math... S5 SB 333ps/440Nm and S Tronic = 19.1s for 0-200km/h... RS5 450ps/430Nm and S Tronic = 15.5s for 0-200km/h...

Everything is depending how good LC in RS5 is. If it is as good as LC on Porsche's PDK RS5 will reach 0-200km/h in 15.5s or even little bit faster.

Will it be enough to win over M3 with M DKG? I am not totally sure... Why? M3 M DKG is faster in 0-250km/h then R8 V8. So what is your Math on the S5/RS5 time guess Kreso ? Duable or too optimistic ? I have no idea personally.

I agree on the LC quality : this considerably helps the Porsche so lets hope the Audi too.

On rolling start I saw various vids 997 mkII PDK vs M3 DKG and the M3 can't follow at all.

[KresoF1]

So what is your Math on the S5/RS5 time guess Kreso ? Duable or too optimistic ? I have no idea personally.

I agree on the LC quality : this considerably helps the Porsche so lets hope the Audi too.

On rolling start I saw various vids 997 mkII PDK vs M3 DKG and the M3 can't follow at all.

Fab, I think that 15.5s is possible if you choose light options(Bucket seats, etc. NO Sunroof for example).

I know for the fact that 997.2C4S with PDK is faster then RS5. Someone was in Spain and tried them side by side....

[youry]

sorry to look stupide but what does "LC" mean ?

[Audiman]

I think they mean Launch Control youry

[Lmg]

Tell us more..... how much quicker is it at the 'ring than the E92 M3?

Well, since KresoF1 gave us a hint some time ago that the RS5 was 10 seconds faster than the B7 RS4 (8:09) in the Nurburgring, we can assume that it will be at least 6 seconds faster than the M3 (8:05).

[Sims]

Well, since KresoF1 gave us a hint some time ago that the RS5 was 10 seconds faster than the B7 RS4 (8:09) in the Nurburgring, we can assume that it will be at least 6 seconds faster than the M3 (8:05).

Cheers, so under the magic 8 minutes. ;)

[KresoF1]

Well, since KresoF1 gave us a hint some time ago that the RS5 was 10 seconds faster than the B7 RS4 (8:09) in the Nurburgring, we can assume that it will be at least 6 seconds faster than the M3 (8:05).

Yes, claim is 10s faster. BUT... Little finger told me that R8 V8 is still faster on both Hockenheim and Nordschleife.

You can expect the same time(or marginally faster) as TT RS(8:09min with standard 19" tires). Which means that RS5 can barely beat M3s 8:05min with Cups or Corsas. RS5 is heavy car-that is its problem.

Do not take me wrong here-I still think that RS5 is great car-just it is more sports GT coupe then a real sportscar.

[Sims]

Do not take me wrong here-I still think that RS5 is great car-just it is more sports GT coupe then a real sportscar.

Agree it will be a great car, and is Audi not really positioning it as as Sports GT Coupe?

Qisha mentioned the lowered sports suspension on the RS4 was considered too harsh. That car was more squarely aimed at the E46 M3 "sportscar".

Is the RS5 perhaps aimed between the E92 M3 & the M6?

[Fab]

Fab, I think that 15.5s is possible if you choose light options(Bucket seats, etc. NO Sunroof for example).

I know for the fact that 997.2C4S with PDK is faster then RS5. Someone was in Spain and tried them side by side.... Dear Kreso I really hope so and this should be even matched (or be very close) for someone (like me) who will go for sport seats (not bucket), sunfoof and no ceramic other wise it will be for me me big disapointment.

I love Audi and my heart wants to go back to the brand but other options are very valid and appealing to me as well. Audi must bring it on big time otherwise I wil go for other stuff.

[artur777]

KresoF1, I agree with your comments
not sure that rs5 will be always faster than m3 m dkg
997.2 c4s is always faster than m3 m dkg and rs5

rs5 is a heavy car though wonderfulc complete gt package

[Fab]

KresoF1, I agree with your comments
not sure that rs5 will be always faster than m3 m dkg
997.2 c4s is always faster than m3 m dkg and rs5

rs5 is a heavy car though wonderfulc complete gt package I would be fine to see RS5 and M3 being even. The RS5 is a much more complete package IMO. 997 mkII is a different animal so I definitely leave it aside. I don't mind about RS5 weight as long as chronos are fine. We know that the handling will be very surprising and anyway in the (improved) continuity of RS models which is more than fine for my needs.

Looking forward to my test drive asap.

[artur777]

m3 and rs5 will be more or less even

[Fab]

this is the logic for everyone so far... on paper. Lets get real facts now !

[Sims]

Evo

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarr ... w_rs5.html



Evo review

Audi's 450bhp, 4wd RS5 coupe should be an M3 beater. But is it? Chris Harris reports
Text: Chris Harris April 2010

What is it?

The latest RS model from Audi, the RS5 coupe, which joins the TTRS and RS6. It uses a new 4.2-litre naturally aspirated V8 with 444bhp and 317lb ft of torque. The motor isn’t a re-worked version of the old RS4’s V8, it’s actually 4/5ths of the Audi R8's 5.2-litre V10.

Could this be a clue, or have journo's got it wrong?

[Mr Balsen]

journalist is actually correct....

[RXBG]

these cars all "compete" with one another, but we forget that each one has its little idiosyncracies that make it unique within the segment. if they interpreted the concept the exact same way they would be too similar. the RS5 is the most refined car in its segment- that is its most unique aspect. it will be faster than the C63 and M3 around a track- imo- but the differnece in its lap time vs the others will not be as signficant as the difference it carries vs the other in the refinement, and interior design execution vs the others- where it will rule in leaps and bounds.

[JavierNuvolari]

I’m going to say something a little controversial, but I was a touch disappointed with this car. It’s nothing like as characterful as the last RS4, and for all its technical brilliance it lacks roll-on performance – ironically just the type that the turbocharged S4 offers. It’s a fine car, but a long way from perfect.

Ouch!, I was not expecting that...

[Sims]

journalist is actually correct....


It would be good if someone from Audi confirms that, for some journos think it is the old RS4 engine with tweaks. I would prefer R8's 5.2 version.

[Mr Balsen]

my little finger confirmed it too..

Cylnderhead has nothing in common with RS4 V8 Cylinder head. It is straight from latest gallardo...

[Fab]

these cars all "compete" with one another, but we forget that each one has its little idiosyncracies that make it unique within the segment. if they interpreted the concept the exact same way they would be too similar. the RS5 is the most refined car in its segment- that is its most unique aspect. it will be faster than the C63 and M3 around a track- imo- but the differnece in its lap time vs the others will not be as signficant as the difference it carries vs the other in the refinement, and interior design execution vs the others- where it will rule in leaps and bounds.You are right and I fully agree with the above. The concept is very similar indeed and this makes the whole (objective) debate even more sexy… I share your view that the RS5 is the most refined car. For me it is also the best looking of the 3, the most allweather type and the latest one alive which makes it even better.

I don’t care about track times which I expect to be very similar (as it was already the case with the RS4 B7). And this is normal since the 3 cars are on the same league.

But where I am uncompromising is the straight line acceleration. I would be fine for a little RS5 disadvantage due to Quattro but I want to be cristal clear on its real power output and real life acceleration skills vs M3 and C63.

As stated many times I strongly hope for the RS5 to do well as this will be synonymous of ordering the car which I love so far.

[Ritchy]

So Qisha, when you say it won't happen to find an M3 DCT above an RS5, have you experienced the duel ? As Fab, i am not talking about track, which is surely not a place for the RS5, more GT than a sport car.

What about the C63. Of course w/o the pack performance +. Will it be similar on a 0-200 race ?

Thanks.

[Sims]

....but I want to be cristal clear on its real power output....

As stated many times I strongly hope for the RS5 to do well as this will be synonymous of ordering the car which I love so far.

The cylinder head for the RS5 is different (Gallardo one as mentioned), Qisha mentioned a while ago that the carbon problem will not affect the RS5. So if this RS does not make the power, then will anyone ever believe Audi. I was at an Audi event (RS6, S8,S3,RS2, S2 , RS4-5 &7)) at the weekend, with Dyno runs. All the cars made close to claimed power (and some exceeded), only one was down by 50ps. Any guesses? People don't trust dynos, but the other Audi's did not have an issue making the power.

[Ritchy]

Excepted the S8 (and RS4 you mention....), all are turbo engines. Turbo does usely more than claimed, N/A less.....

A friend has a 4WD dyno. The only none turbo engine which gives all its power is the 6.2 l AMG.

[Sims]

Excepted the S8 (and RS4 you mention....), all are turbo engines. Turbo does usely more than claimed, N/A less.....

A friend has a 4WD dyno. The only none turbo engine which gives all its power is the 6.2 l AMG.

& BMW's ?

[Ritchy]

Average HP:

C63: 455
RS4 B7: 380
M3 V8: 400
GT-R: 525
Porsche 997 turbo (500HP version): 545

[Fab]

IMO C63 remains the fastest (not even mentioning the perf package...) but I don't care as long at it remains close and not 2-3sec behind.

The fact that this 4.2 V8 is almost brand new and derived from Gallardo/R8 v10 sounds very promising indeed. And as mentionned if power output is not reached or closely approach then Audi (at least from my side will definitely loose all credibility). The RS4 B7 was/is great car but I have been quite disapointed about its real power and chrono perfs vs competition and I don't want to re-experience that with the RS5 !

Of course a dyno run is an estimation but most of the tested cars do meet their HP or are close to it (median results among few cars of the same model) so RS5 should make it as well and not be shy of 40-50hp !!!

The AMG 6.2 is one of the best engine available so I am not surprised by its regular power output on dynos.

By the way I am testing the C63 this Friday afternoon (never drove it so far). This is part of my overall window shopping before to go for my next car. The C63 could easily make it over the RS5 (with some regret since I like Audi and the RS5) if the power issue disapoints. I will also test the GT-R and the M3. Will let you know about the C63 experience...

PS : there is a brand new black/black C63 sedan with perf package and full options immediately available in Switzerland (close to me :-)) for CHF 118'000.-- (EUR 82'500.--) which in my opinion is just a great deal. I don't like to have to many choices... it confuses me ggggrrrrrrrrr.......

[youry]

The cylinder head for the RS5 is different (Gallardo one as mentioned), Qisha mentioned a while ago that the carbon problem will not affect the RS5. So if this RS does not make the power, then will anyone ever believe Audi. I was at an Audi event (RS6, S8,S3,RS2, S2 , RS4-5 &7)) at the weekend, with Dyno runs. All the cars made close to claimed power (and some exceeded), only one was down by 50ps. Any guesses? People don't trust dynos, but the other Audi's did not have an issue making the power.

I have to think a lot before saying that it is the RS4 B7. i must haev measured or seen at least 20 RS4 V8. and the lest we measureed on dyno was 360 hp and the most on same dyno was 402 hp. so if thsi one makes 370 hp makes sense in my view and the other cars and dyno looks credible to me, this is excellent news that RS5 will have or at least very close to its claimed power.

[Ritchy]

Carefull, there's a new perf package (plus?) which gives 30HP more (487HP). With a 0-200KPH in less than 13,9 sec. Bye bye RS5....

I would have gone for this model with the SL63/E63/SLS gearbox. But Mercedes kept the old automatic one.

[Fab]

Carefull, there's a new perf package (plus?) which gives 30HP more (487HP). With a 0-200KPH in less than 13,9 sec. Bye bye RS5....

I would have gone for this model with the SL63/E63/SLS gearbox. But Mercedes kept the old automatic one.This package is a must go for anyone considering a C63. Even the price is nice and as you say perfs are tremendous. And the available car I mentionned above has it !!!

Back to the automatic gear box I only red good think about it. And the engine sound is simply amaizing. The model starts to be a bit old and isn't far to be replaced with the new V8 biturbo that looks very promising too eventough the 6.2 will for long remain in everybody's mind.

@ Youry : you said (as expected for people knowing you a bit) that the car will immediately get some mods mainly 21" rims. Which one are you going to fit ? Thanks.

[Ritchy]

I tried the box on a 200km trip. And i had a SLK55AMG for 2 years before the RS4. And it's really too slow in manual mode.

[youry]

@ Youry : you said (as expected for people knowing you a bit) that the car will immediately get some mods mainly 21" rims. Which one are you going to fit ? Thanks.

I don't know yet... I'll most likely need to go for tailor made as in 21 its very difficult to find lots of options... I want to go for forged tahnology to not increase weight and impact perforamnce of the car.

size will most likely be 9.5X21 ET around 25/26 and tire 275/25/21... but still to be decided at this stage.

[Fab]

Agree that when looking at C63 vids gear shifts are not the quickest on earth. I'll try anyway not to regret anything but I want to go for a full power RS5...... Despite my strong statement on power I think Audi will not disapoint with the RS5.

[Fab]

I don't know yet... I'll most likely need to go for tailor made as in 21 its very difficult to find lots of options... I want to go for forged tahnology to not increase weight and impact perforamnce of the car.

size will most likely be 9.5X21 ET around 25/26 and tire 275/25/21... but still to be decided at this stage.I am shure you will go for a nice set up anyway together with KW3. Looking forward to discovering it when time comes.

I also red your remap stories (with Ritchy and others on AP) and was close to go for it eventhough you are quite far for me. The work looks very professional and tailor made. This time, if all goes well and I get the beast I might ring you.

cheers

Fab

[youry]

thanks fab.

We've communcaited a lot on different forums. ans it will a pleasure to meet you in real life even if you do nothing on your car with me actually. I am first of all before anythiugn else a strong AUDI fan and always love to speak with other fans.

To be honest I am rally afraid of making a bad choice for the wheels, but will take my time to do this right. I have some ideas but not sure it can be done technically...

[Fab]

I don't want to be off topic too much but I am quite awake tonight... :jlol:

I had a close look to a nice white GT-R 2 days ago (without driving it). I like the car very much. I think the outside shape is gorgeous and agressive. I was a bit more uncertain about the interior and plastics, etc. and I must admit that it is more than fine actually (not at Audi's level of course) and this positively surprised me. I love this car the only issue for me at least is the badge (sorry) and how the car will be ageing over time + reliability.

What do you guys think ? Any comment from a tester/owner ?

[Fab]

thanks fab.

We've communcaited a lot on different forums. ans it will a pleasure to meet you in real life even if you do nothing on your car with me actually. I am first of all before anythiugn else a strong AUDI fan and always love to speak with other fans.

To be honest I am rally afraid of making a bad choice for the wheels, but will take my time to do this right. I have some ideas but not sure it can be done technically...With pleasure Youry. If all goes as expected and once we're all equipped... we'll have to organise a nice meeting with some other long dated "forum friends" for shure.

To be continued...

[youry]

fab I am really hearing lots of bad stuff regarding realibability of the gear box ad nwaranty voiding if you use the launch control (this is completely crazy but confirmed on lots of different sources)...

I also got a recent info on the cfat that Nisan might actually stop selling the car in Europe due to too many recalls/issues... You might remember that I did place a deposit for a GTR until I saw it in real life in Geneva in march 2009... I am too used with the AUDi quality and finish.... i cancelled my order and got my deposit back. That was a great decision I made. could nto even get teh GTR in blue even if i wanted too..... and paid a premium for it, you just have one thing to do when you order a GTR, pay and shut up... I hate that attitude...

[youry]

With pleasure Youry. If all goes as expected and once we're all equipped... we'll have to organise a nice meeting with some other long dated "forum friends" for shure.

To be continued...

good idea indeed

[Fab]

fab I am really hearing lots of bad stuff regarding realibability of the gear box ad nwaranty voiding if you use the launch control (this is completely crazy but confirmed on lots of different sources)...

I also got a recent info on the cfat that Nisan might actually stop selling the car in Europe due to too many recalls/issues... You might remember that I did place a deposit for a GTR until I saw it in real life in Geneva in march 2009... I am too used with the AUDi quality and finish.... i cancelled my order and got my deposit back. That was a great decision I made. could nto even get teh GTR in blue even if i wanted too..... and paid a premium for it, you just have one thing to do when you order a GTR, pay and shut up... I hate that attitude... Yeah this is what reguarly comes out of various sources... not that the car isn't good but not my cup of tea I know that. The more I look around to keep my mind opened to other options I quickly get back to the RS5. As you I have been an Audi fan for many years and a loyal customer until recently and and now feel the "need" to get back to the brand. Can't wait for a test drive.