RS6 6 speed manual Swap Teaser [Archive] - RS6.com

p3u

March 7th, 2010, 21:09

The O1E Box will bolt up ..... But there is not enough space for the v8 flywheel if fit in the oie box..

With it bolted up as such in this picture 2 points can not be bolted on just the one side. Doesn't this significantly reduce the strength of the two mated together? Or is there something else done about this Grizz?

BTW, did you ever finish up your 6 speed conversion you were working on some time back?

Matt@ravenms

March 7th, 2010, 21:23

Interesting first post.

First time on site to get RS6 owners a view too, that's why I'm posting....

Matt@ravenms

March 7th, 2010, 21:27

<img src="http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu336/p3u/rs6one.jpg"img src>

Anyone notice on the bottom of the block, since no adapter plate was used looks like very few points are actually connecting the transmission to it...

Just to give you heads up. I'm using the stock B5 S4 01e spacer and in the picture it has only one bolt.... but i can bolted in 7 total. one on Left, two at top, one on right. two for starter. and one on oil pan. bottom right. These pictures were takin last Month. I'm much farther along now.

Matt@ravenms

March 7th, 2010, 21:30

The O1E Box will bolt up ..... But there is not enough space for the v8 flywheel if fit in the oie box..

That's because I'm not using V-8 Flywheel. I'm have a custom flywheel being Made. Its a B5 S4 2.7T flywheel/clutch setup, made for RS6 10 bolt crank.

p3u

March 7th, 2010, 21:32

So 7 out of 9 points will cut it? Not bad mouthing if it sounds that way, but just seems less then ideal.

Matt@ravenms

March 7th, 2010, 21:49

So 7 out of 9 points will cut it? Not bad mouthing if it sounds that way, but just seems less then ideal.

I'm working on the 8th Mounting point located 10 o'clock on the tranny. The hole is there on the motor but not threaded. The last hole is on the oil pan, located at 7 o'clock. If you notice in the picture you can see the extra hole not going to be used. Also the stock Dowels are being used to hold tranny center. So 8 out of 9 bolts off 01E plus 2 factory dowels to the motor.... 7 bolts holding tranny to block, 1 in oil pan. One missing bolt in lower oil pan. I think it is held in pretty good

650RS

March 8th, 2010, 00:28

That's because I'm not using V-8 Flywheel. I'm have a custom flywheel being Made. Its a B5 S4 2.7T flywheel/clutch setup, made for RS6 10 bolt crank.

Could you not use this flywheel http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_64&products_id=495 it bolts up to the 01E from what I am told.

Matt@ravenms

March 8th, 2010, 00:55

Could you not use this flywheel http://www.034motorsport.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_64&products_id=495 it bolts up to the 01E from what I am told.

Yes, It could... but i don't have a spare 800 dollars to just "test fit it." One thing I know is the tigger wheel on the RS6 isn't in the same location as the 01E. The rs6 pick up ring is located bout 8 o'clock, as for the 01E its at 10 o'clock. So, making a new flywheel to what I need may be better. But If someone has that flywheel laying around and wants to send it to me to Help make this work, it's worth a shot. :jlol:

650RS

March 8th, 2010, 00:58

You mean the pickup? I dont think the location of the pickup affects things but rather the number of teeth etc.

I would buy a flywheel off you anyway if you want to sell me one

TozoM8

March 8th, 2010, 01:32

7 bolts are plenty enough. the V8 Cadillac has 4 bolts and it's never a problem. The RS6 TC has 6 bolts (the S8 has 3) without the dowel pin. The trigger signal it on a different spot on the flywheel because the sensor is on a different location on the tranny. I did not have a problem with the signal. It is very easy to modify on the 01E flywheel anyway. You can use the flexplate starter gear from the RS6 and mount it on your new flywheel and use the RS6 starter.

650RS

March 8th, 2010, 01:38

So your saying as long as you use the flywheel matching the gearbox the location doesnt matter? sort of make sense I guess

About modifying the O1E flywheel with the RS6 ring gear I thought the issue was the size of the ring gear wont fit inside the 01E bellhousing?

TozoM8

March 8th, 2010, 02:06

650RS

March 8th, 2010, 02:10

Matt@ravenms

March 8th, 2010, 02:50

You mean the pickup? I dont think the location of the pickup affects things but rather the number of teeth etc.

I would buy a flywheel off you anyway if you want to sell me one

The pick up for number one cylinder..... it has to be exact or car wont run at all.... or throw crank sensor faults.. since there in different locations it has to be move to the correct spot for the ECU to pick up TDC.

Matt@ravenms

March 8th, 2010, 03:20

No, it won't fit. the RS6 flexplate is a bit over 12", but that's why I would use a custom spacer. It would make room for the starter gear, you could use all the bell housing bolts and the stock starter.
There is no way to make a spacer. the larger flex plate/stater gear would get in the way of bolting up of the 01E tranny. I give you what i got without give to many details. A real RS6, stock RS6 block, 01e trans, with the spacer it comes with.... a custom Steel B5 S4 flywheel w 10 bolt crank pattern/ w the correct pick up ring location for TDC for rs6(not 2.7). As for the starter, I'm going to be using the 4.2L (non turbo) that will bolt up(with a little grinding of Alum). I'm trying to make a true bolt up swap here.... no spacers, no adapters.... just bolt on. From everything that I've done so far. it's a Green light for installing in car... Only problem is In that picture above , is my personal tranny from my Stage 3 S4 just used as a test fit. I just purchased a 2.7T 6 speed A6 that I'm using to Donate it's guts. Trans, drive shafts, propshaft, rear diff, shifter linkage, clutch pedal, etc etc.... Everything is a True bolt in. I've already did a 2.7T a6 6speed swap into a 4.2 A6 w RS6 body parts. http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=1730663 So i have a idea of whats going on with 2.7t a6 and 4.2 a6, now RS6.

SteveKen

March 8th, 2010, 03:26

I've been working on this off & on for the last 8 months or so and have finally found a willing owner to do this using my spacer and the only custom items are the starter, the spacer and hardware.

I do intend to sell this spacer and starter but want to make sure it's right first.

I've mentioned many times before that if you use the standard diameter flywheel for an 01E, you can't use a stock starter without bastardizing it or the RS6 4.2 block. The OD of the stock starter body hits the stiffening ribs on the RS6 block if you try to move it in the 10 mm necessary.

Here's the difference in diameters (20mm). Flex plate from my RS6 motor versus a stock 2.7T flywheel.
9529

S6 starter in the stock location with the 01E diameter flywheel installed.
9527

Here's where the stock starter hits if you try to move it in. Personally, I wouldn't want a "kit" that requires die grinding anything off the block. My kit will be as un-disturbing to all the components and be totally reversible.
9526

Here's confirmation that the 01E and the RS6 block do share a lot of holes. Shown is the 2.7T engine - trans spacer against the RS6 block.
9525
The bad thing is that they're all mostly on the top and there are no shared holes to support the starter.

Another showing what happens if you try to use a 2.7T or S6 or A6 4.2 starter against the RS6 block.
9528
Unless I'm totally missing something, it doesn't work.

I've contracted an engineering firm to design the adapter and it utilizes specific hardware to make up for the missing holes without adding any length to the drivetrain and the spacer will be the stock 11mm as the trans spacer. The RS6 block and 01E and starters have been 3D laser scanned and all special components will be CNC manufactured. I'm using a custom offset starter that has a custom mounting flange.

Sorry to semi-jack his thread in my opinion, some aspects of this conversion are simple and others are not so simple. Best of luck to all who endeavor into this. I would have had this done a long time ago if I had a car to go with the RS6 motor sitting on the floor of my garage.

SteveKen

March 8th, 2010, 03:44

BTW, I've done an 01E conversion on my 2002 S6. I hope that all the wiring, ecu coding and other fitment issues will be the basis for the RS6 swap and hope to include the necessary wiring harnesses as an addition to a kit.

Matt@ravenms

March 8th, 2010, 05:26

Its cool, not jacking my thread at all.... just people trying to get RS6 swap to a Manual. More people involved, more likely to solve this.....
OKay the spacer for the 01e it was designed for a 2.7T starter not 4.2L, but the 01e Tranny and block both have locations to bolt up a 4.2L starter
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/raven83302/IMG00162-20100307-2012.jpg
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/raven83302/IMG00159-20100307-2010.jpg
You can see the difference on the lower bolt hole between both starters on the tranny
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/raven83302/IMG00164-20100307-2013.jpg
2.7T
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/raven83302/IMG00165-20100307-2014.jpg
4.2L
Starters next to each other 2.7t and 4.2L
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/raven83302/IMG00158-20100307-2010trimmed.jpg
see the lower hole on the 4.2l is farther away, making it usable to bolt starter to tranny, and block
I'm modifying my spacer to use the outer hole by weld more material on, and at the same time trimming some of the Block, and Starter. Some times to make things work, you have to shave some metal, but not enough to cause damage.
Drill a upper hole for starter to allow the 01e starter bolt holes.
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/raven83302/IMG00159-20100307-2010trimmed.jpg
another picture of metal the needs to me trimmed
http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/raven83302/IMG00160-20100307-20112trimmed.jpg
I'm not trying to "bastardizing" anything to the car. just some times when Making something fit, you have to shave a little metal off. I'm a B5 S4 guy, when we install RS6 turbos to our 2.7t we have to shave tons of alum to make them fit. is it hurting the turbo, nope. Just making room to fit in car. same thing I'm doing... I'm shaving some material to bolt starter in. Big deal.
There's no need to make any custom start or adapter plate.

SteveKen

March 8th, 2010, 12:58

I see we've taken parallel paths pretty much with regards to the starter issue. I'm eventually going to market something that requires no trimming of the block. I'm sure it might not have any affect on the relilability of the block, but it's a big leap to have someone grind away at that. (especially when shokan wants $14k for a replacement short block) The thought did cross my mind, though. Grind at the block or add $6-700 for the custom starter and starter adapter since the TIlton starter I'm using is $500 prior to machining of the flange. Good luck and I await the results.

terrytcl

March 8th, 2010, 16:33

ball park conservative estimate - how much would a conversion kit cost steve?

SteveKen

March 8th, 2010, 16:57

I was thinking of trying to get between $1-2k for the adapter, starter, starter adapter and hardware. I also have no idea as to what it will cost me to have these items CNC'd. I've just got off the phone with Tiltion Engineering and the starter we've worked out retails for $400 for the motor and drive assy. The only one I found ready for immediate delivery is an HD model motor assy (.7 in. longer) that's $45 extra. So my cost for the starter is $450 plus shipping before actually manufactuing the flange/snout/nose, etc.

As much as I'd love to bank my retirement on any profit margins, it's just not going to happen I guess unless I wan tot snatch up all the RS6's and convert them myself and sell them (since my labor is cheap).

Here's some back of the envelope calculations I've done.

01E transmission that should be best suited for the RS6 is about $5000 ($4500 if I can come up with a core)
Clutch $500 - $1000
Flywheel $700 - 1000
A6 2.7T Rear Diff & prop shaft & front axles???
A6 2.7T Trans mounts $175
A6 2.7T Pedals, linkages and misc items $500 - $1000
Adapter & starter $2000????
Wiring harnesses

Big question is can the RS6 ECU be recoded for the MT easily or will I have to break into the code. Same with the ABS system (which I was unaware of before) Hopefully my S6 conversion will gain me some experience.

What do you think

So we're looking at $10k for parts for the DIY'er. Of course you could just slap in a used trans for a few thousand less.

The biggest issue I have now is the ECU side. I'm ot sure how much work is involved and need to get m y S6 back to see how easy or difficult it is to recode it to a manual transmission.

I think if you're careful in sourcing parts (I bought my A6 2.7T parts car a 14 months ago for $3500 sold many parts so I'm basically using a free drivetrain) this can easily be done for sub $10k.

Matt@ravenms

March 8th, 2010, 19:41

This is what I'm spending on this build. so far
I bought a 2001 A6 2.7T 6 speed, 140k miles for $1,500 and it was running. Keep what I need sell the rest, makes swap cheaper.
I'm getting my clutch and flywheel for around 1,200-1,400.
4.2L Starter was 200 off Shokan

SteveKen----What harness are you talking bout ?

SteveKen

March 8th, 2010, 19:48

The speed sensor from your 2.7T parts car plugs righ into the engine harness in place of the one on the slush box. You need to integrate the neutral safety switch and clutch position switch into the dash harness and run a wire to the ECU as well. If you do this hopefully you will see this when you unplug the TCU.

http://www.kendrish.com/galleries/S6/build/cluster_clutch.JPG

I plan on removing all the trans wiring on my S6 for a super clean install, leaving no trace of the auto transmission.

You also need to wire in the reverse switch. I tied mine into the junction at the driver's side footwell.

I've got every 01E starter that Audi made I think. I'd had them advertised for $50 shipped a while ago on quattroworld. Still have them. Here's the one from an A8 that I reall y hacked on only to find out the the body still hit the side of the block:
http://www.kendrish.com/galleries/RS6/starter/hack_A6_strtr.JPG

Here's where it needs to go, but this is only the housing without the body attached. Otherwise it doesn't get in that far.
http://www.kendrish.com/galleries/RS6/starter/strtr_locating.JPG

Here's where I determined the holes would need to go if I wanted to utilize the bottom existing hole on the block and then drill and grind the block:
http://www.kendrish.com/galleries/RS6/starter/holes.JPG

Amulet-S6

March 8th, 2010, 21:37

Wow, great photo's to help us automotive challenged Audi drivers follow your technical discussions. Keep it up... and Play nice with each other

Jim
Tooth Mechanic

Matt@ravenms

March 8th, 2010, 21:48

When I get on the wiring I'll hit you up SteveKen, Thanks for heads up
BTW Wow, you grinded alot of the starter.... ouch. Just looks Bad

Also Hopefully, my Flywheel will be Done by weds to post up...FYI

SteveKen

March 8th, 2010, 21:54

I actually just ordered my OEM flywheel from Germany as well as the starter drive assembly and motor today.

It will be some weeks before I get the scanning, design and manufacturing done. I no longer have an 01E either. Might have to borrow one for fitment and testing. Best of luck.

SAFE4NOW

March 8th, 2010, 22:34

If either of you two want to shoot me the OEM part numbers for the parts you are needing, I would be more than happy to do some sourcing of my own.

I will offer you guys what I can find them for, in order to help the cause and knowing that I am interested in this swap in the future as well.

PM me what you need

Steve

eurotunedrs6

March 9th, 2010, 04:06

Hopefully you both can get this figured out and everything works smoothly. Down the line a manual swap will be fun, plus prices of a6s should come down a lot when Im ready so a nice donor car might not be so bad on the pocket book. I just want to add that I think it would be smarter for people to just buy a used transmission(or for the price an entire donor car lol) for a fraction of the price and get a JHM rebuild kit instead of buying a new 01e. Realistically even with work you could probably get it done for half the cost or a little more. Just something to think about for those wanting a smooth and worry free transmission but dont want to drop $5000 on one. A parts car is definately the way to go though! I give you both a lot of props for trying this out!

Carbonman

March 31st, 2010, 21:26

Shoppinit

March 31st, 2010, 21:30

I don't think the mechanical aspects are the most difficult in the manual conversion. How do you sort out the ABS / ESP / CAnbus comms, between the engine and the box? Sounds like a nightmare. There are boxes that'll offer up physically, but that's where your real problems start, I would have thought. Unless you forego the ESP, etc. Could always put carbs on it ;)

Matt@ravenms

March 31st, 2010, 22:01

Sorry to jump into the middle of this thread, but I've been wondering if a newer B6 S4 6 speed would be a better starting point for this conversion (or potentially the Rs4 gearbox). I'm not very savvy with this kind of stuff, but a manual conversion is always on my radar for my Rs6.

Well, the only reason why I pick B5 S4 trans is because the complete drivetrain works as is. rear diff, center propshaft, every bolts up to a A6 chassis. The RS6 is the same chassis as a reg A6. So basically take 2.7 off and put 4.2 on. Easy as that. The B6 s4, i'm not sure if diff is same ratio, or propshaft same size, dont have those car to test or try out.

On side note, I have a B7 S4 4.2 6 speed avant that I'm converting to 2.7T, I'll Post that conversion when I'm done with that. I've also done a A6 2.7T 6speed stage 3 into a A6 4.2 widebody(with RS6 Bodykit). Check post, went from silver car to Black widebody. http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2771915

And another link, http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=1730663
The Real RS6 with Stasis sticker on the left,is the one getting the Manual Swap. The one on the right is the 2.7T swap I did. Silver a6 to RS6.
Enjoy......

r8dream

March 31st, 2010, 22:46

i've heard that here in the uk dialynx has done an rs6 manual conversion, maybe they can give advice.

SteveKen

March 31st, 2010, 22:49

Matt. What's the status on the RS6 manual conversion? I've got my starter and the flywheel is on the way. That's it thus far.

Brazil

March 31st, 2010, 22:53

The pick up for number one cylinder..... it has to be exact or car wont run at all.... or throw crank sensor faults.. since there in different locations it has to be move to the correct spot for the ECU to pick up TDC.

Yet, this can be tweaked in the ECU programming just like anything else. You tell it where TDC is, so if you tell it something different, it will look for that value over the current stock one. Seems much easier than moving the sensor. Just my 2c.

Matt@ravenms

April 1st, 2010, 02:55

Matt. What's the status on the RS6 manual conversion? I've got my starter and the flywheel is on the way. That's it thus far.

Well, I just got my donor car after 14 days of waiting... shipped from east coast. Starer is on, Btw I did not modify it... Completely bolt on. Flywheel is here, just need to tear this donor car apart. Taking all the drive train and install it on RS6. Then get car on ground to take pedals and other things apart. So, hopefully by this weekend I'll have a big step forward in the swap. Steve, still using b5 s4 trans?

SteveKen

April 1st, 2010, 03:00

Starer is on, Btw I did not modify it... Completely bolt on.

I'm guessing you had to clearance the RS6 block to get the starter to mount up?

Steve, still using b5 s4 trans

I'm using an A6 2.7T trans on my 6 speed S6

Matt@ravenms

April 1st, 2010, 03:05

I'm guessing you had to clearance the RS6 block to get the starter to mount up?

Yea, just a Little.... not much... just as much as if you ported you intake or cylinder heads...

I'm using an A6 2.7T trans on my 6 speed S6
A6 2.7t is a b5 s4 trans (01e) what tranny code, EDU? or newer like i think fyz

Thats basically what i got 2001 a6 2.7T 6 speed edu 01e trans.

Check your PM

SteveKen

April 1st, 2010, 03:12

PM'd you back.

Mine says EUU EDU. I'm guessing it's the same?

<img src="http://www.kendrish.com/galleries/A6/option_codes_s.JPG">

Matt@ravenms

April 1st, 2010, 03:29

PM'd you back.

Mine says EUU EDU. I'm guessing it's the same?

http://www.kendrish.com/galleries/A6/option_codes_s.JPG

Yea EDU is the tranny code.... make sure BEFORE you install that tranny you update 1/2 gear shift collar..... hate to mess it up then pull it out again.... I'm rebuilding the tranny i got cause the shift collar is FUBAR already, which means More $$$

HeadShot

May 2nd, 2010, 00:20

Great Thread Guys.. really interesting reading and excellent pics to tie it all together. Keep up the great work and best of luck on this.

Matt@ravenms

July 24th, 2010, 06:24

Hey Everyone. Been a while since I posted.... its been busy at shop but Finally got flywheel back from Clutch Shop. Here's a couple pictures, Let me know what you think. This weekend going to be installing everything into RS6 so by end of weekend will know if Clutch works correctly. Hope everyone stays posted. :)
10125
10127
10130

scottmandu

July 24th, 2010, 17:38

Starer is on, Btw I did not modify it... Completely bolt on.

It would appear the engine block was modified to fit the starter it is not a direct bolt up as an extra hole was drilled into the block.

Compare the 2 images.

http://www.advancedautomotion.com/images/v6_spacer_rs6 block.jpghttp://www.advancedautomotion.com/images/rs61.jpg

V8weight

July 24th, 2010, 23:25

It would appear the engine block was modified

Yes, and rather poorly at that. What tool was used to clearance the block? Claw hammer?

Matt@ravenms

July 25th, 2010, 01:01

Of coarse it looks like crap cause this is all trail and error. Nothing looks good when your the first trying to build it up. if you look back at the earlier part of this post. I did mention that you have to shave block a little to clear the starter. The starter has no major grind at all, just a Sharp edge was removed. Everything else was grinded off with bits made for aluminum . The block in the picture has more material remove for testing, I found out that not much has to be shaved off. Remember that this is my First try at making this work. If i recall Steveken Grinded a stock start down to it was nothing more then a little Cover. he learned that a Different start is needed.

Matt@ravenms

July 25th, 2010, 01:09

It would appear the engine block was modified to fit the starter it is not a direct bolt up as an extra hole was drilled into the block.

Compare the 2 images.

http://www.advancedautomotion.com/images/v6_spacer_rs6 block.jpghttp://www.advancedautomotion.com/images/rs61.jpg

I Meant that the Starter I'm using is direct bolt up compared to Making a different starter. I'm using a OEM start not aftermarket, just cause on hole is drilled Doesn't make it bad. My starter setup bolts to the tranny using the block as a spacer on the top and the bottom of the starter bolts to the large part of the block casting.