"Carbon build-up"

[Qisha]

Dear Friends,

as promised, i would like to say a word or two concerning „Carbon build-up“:

What is “Carbon build-up” and how does it come into being:

With fuel direct injection the cylinder heads and valves are no longer “washed” by fuel, which leads to a lacking “cleaning factor”. This is where the exhaust gas recirculation combined with the ventilation vapor of the crankcase ventilation and oil starts to build up. Particles of dirt and jets of water coming through the air intake path form into firmly adhering layer. This layer is taken up within the chambers of the cylinder heads and the admission valves, resulting in a rough surface, the airflow cross-sections become more narrow leading to non optimal air interlacing and cylinder charge. In total the results of “Carbon build-up” can be bad exhaust emissions, lower power output and higher consumption. In worst case the “Carbon build-up” affects the valve train. The valves can not close completely, which leads to low compression on the relevant cylinder, the fuel composition is not “fired”.

Factors that promote “Carbon build-up”:

Low quality fuel

Frequent short range driving

Preventing higher engine temps

Low RPM driving

intermittent driving

long time „not-using“

using non-specific engine oil


Audi RS 5 and „Carbon build-up“, do i have to worry?

As you might already know, the RS 5 engine ist based on the RS 4 V8 version. Main “Carbon build-up” relevant points that have been altered:

Engine production tolerance over again significant improved

Engine oil temp is increased by ~10°C

Modified piston rings


Resume:

The probability of „Carbon build-up“ within the RS 5 engine is nominal.

Qisha

PS: as the RS 4 V8 was also mentioned you migh like to note, that the engines from build date CW20/2007 received a altered cylinder head with different piston rings.

[Lmg]

Well, that's certainy interesting.

Thanks for the info, Qisha!

[artur777]

very interesting, Qisha
thanks a lot

[iconcls]

Rode like a rented mule by Audi regarding DRC in the RS 6, then having Audi claim it was fixed in the RS 4 but then only to see continued failures, I'm more than a bit skeptical. Audi has lost nearly all credibility with me so I honestly do not know what to make of their promises any longer.

[Sims]

Well, that's certainy interesting.

Thanks for the info, Qisha!

+1. Really appreciate your frank and upfront answer. So a car even with less than 20,000kms could have the dreaded carbon build up?

[MihokS5]

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/19500-The-Audi-RS5-will-debut-at-Geneva-2010?p=185517&viewfull=1#post185517

Thanks Qisha-my S5 is an 08 with about 12K on it-I'm thinking of doing a BG fuel induction cleaning as a preventitive maintenance-would you sugegst that? Thanks!

[Andyuk911]

...but, as much as what Qisha says, it will happen, this is fact. There is nothing you can do to stop this and over time performance will be impacted. Remember, this is nothing to do with Audi, all Direct Injection engines will suffer this, 997 Gen II, Ferrari California, 458 etc. Will I buy another FSI car, yep I will ...

Now back on topic .. seen the pixs of the RS5 on the Stand, butt ugly wheels to me !

[Qisha]

Thanks Qisha-my S5 is an 08 with about 12K on it-I'm thinking of doing a BG fuel induction cleaning as a preventitive maintenance-would you sugegst that? Thanks!

Dear MihokS5,

if you are driving your car more or less daily and not only short distance, you are using premium fuel, i dont see a need but it cant do any worse. Keep in mind that the pre-cats are close to the cylinders, overgreasing the combustion mix due to adding to much cleaning fluid can lead to a cat damage by overheating.

Qisha

[Sims]

Dear MihokS5,

if you are driving your car more or less daily and not only short distance, you are using premium fuel, i

Hi Q,

I am using premium fuel, correct oil, correct temperature, minimum 20kms run etc.

But I don't use the car daily - sometimes only twice a week.

Also because of the road conditions, I cannot drive at high revs unless I keep the car in 1 & 2nd gear.

How does this impact?

Surely if anyone buying an RS4 would have been told you can only use for long journeys, and everyday and at high revs, they may not buy the car?

Thanks

[Sims]

As you might already know, the RS 5 engine ist based on the RS 4 V8 version. Main “Carbon build-up” relevant points that have been altered:

Engine production tolerance over again significant improved

Engine oil temp is increased by ~10°C

Modified piston rings


Resume:

The probability of „Carbon build-up“ within the RS 5 engine is nominal.

Qisha

PS: as the RS 4 V8 was also mentioned you migh like to note, that the engines from build date CW20/2007 received a altered cylinder head with different piston rings.

Is it the same cylinder head & piston rings for the post CW20/2007 RS4's and the RS5?

Can you modify RS4's to run the 10C higher temperature, if that helps?

Production tolerance - were many RS4's low on power from production? What is the accepted tolerance? Are there amy cars that made more than the stated power?

You mention good quality fuel again and again - what is the minimum octane?

Cheers

[Lmg]

You mention good quality fuel again and again - what is the minimum octane?

My guess would be 98 octanes.

[Andyuk911]

PP, higher temp is actually worse as the oil breaks down ...

Trust me, bottom line you can't stop it, UNLESS you install NOS, which according to a chap I met at Brands Hatch using a TFSI Golf, the NOS use helps to keep the vanes and Valves cleanish.

Qisha, I think you posting some 'red herrings', please stop it unless you are able to supply valve/manifold pictures to prove what you say.

Most people in the know, accept FSI and the carbon and I am sure will just can clean when appropriate - UK folks can go to MRC

[Andyuk911]

PP,

Re fuel's, for UK running Super Unleaded, this has two benefits.

1. the ignition timing can be advanced, thus a bigger bang can be produced BEFORE the spark plug sets the fuel off in the cylinder.

2. Additional cleaning additives, which for a FSI engine ONLY help in the cylinder, NOWHERE else.

[Sims]

PP,

Re fuel's, for UK running Super Unleaded, this has two benefits.

1. the ignition timing can be advanced, thus a bigger bang can be produced BEFORE the spark plug sets the fuel off in the cylinder.

2. Additional cleaning additives, which for a FSI engine ONLY help in the cylinder, NOWHERE else.

Thanks for that. I have only used super unleaded but some claim some super's are better than others e.g Shell Optimax. And in the apparently the fuel octane claimed is often not what it says on the pump!!!

[Sims]

Trust me, bottom line you can't stop it, UNLESS you install NOS,

Most people in the know, accept FSI and the carbon and I am sure will just can clean when appropriate - UK folks can go to MRC

NOS? I am not technical.

Are most people in the know about it's impact? is this akin to an engine decoke?

[MihokS5]

Dear MihokS5,

if you are driving your car more or less daily and not only short distance, you are using premium fuel, i dont see a need but it cant do any worse. Keep in mind that the pre-cats are close to the cylinders, overgreasing the combustion mix due to adding to much cleaning fluid can lead to a cat damage by overheating.

Qisha

Q-
I'm trying to get my facts straight about carbon/oil consumption. I understand that "carbon" is a result of the combustion process and there is no way around it. But how does oil quality/temp/ affect how much carbon an engine produces if the main things going into the cylinder are air/fuel? Our the FSI engines burning oil due to the piston ring design? Or are they losing oil in the crankcase due to oil breaking down? Sorry for my lack of knowledge-just trying to understand

[Al Pettee]

Dear Friends,

as promised, i would like to say a word or two concerning „Carbon build-up“:

What is “Carbon build-up” and how does it come into being:

With fuel direct injection the cylinder heads and valves are no longer “washed” by fuel, which leads to a lacking “cleaning factor”. This is where the exhaust gas recirculation combined with the ventilation vapor of the crankcase ventilation and oil starts to build up. Particles of dirt and jets of water coming through the air intake path form into firmly adhering layer. This layer is taken up within the chambers of the cylinder heads and the admission valves, resulting in a rough surface, the airflow cross-sections become more narrow leading to non optimal air interlacing and cylinder charge. In total the results of “Carbon build-up” can be bad exhaust emissions, lower power output and higher consumption. In worst case the “Carbon build-up” affects the valve train. The valves can not close completely, which leads to low compression on the relevant cylinder, the fuel composition is not “fired”.

Factors that promote “Carbon build-up”:

Low quality fuel

Frequent short range driving

Preventing higher engine temps

Low RPM driving

intermittent driving

long time „not-using“

using non-specific engine oil


Audi RS 5 and „Carbon build-up“, do i have to worry?

As you might already know, the RS 5 engine ist based on the RS 4 V8 version. Main “Carbon build-up” relevant points that have been altered:

Engine production tolerance over again significant improved

Engine oil temp is increased by ~10°C

Modified piston rings


Resume:

The probability of „Carbon build-up“ within the RS 5 engine is nominal.

Qisha

PS: as the RS 4 V8 was also mentioned you migh like to note, that the engines from build date CW20/2007 received a altered cylinder head with different piston rings.

So I guess that means that by driving my supercharged RS4 on 100 octane fuel and constantly bouncing off the rev limiter, I am minimizing carbon build-up! :revs: :0: :jlol: :rs4addict

[Sims]

So I guess that means that by driving my supercharged RS4 on 100 octane fuel and constantly bouncing off the rev limiter, I am minimizing carbon build-up! :revs: :0: :jlol: :rs4addict

You also need to go on long journeys and everyday. And high revs only after engine is warmed up (so if takes a long time to warm up, there will be carbon buildup in the interim - best to keep the car in a warm garage with a sump heater)

[Ruergard]

Great information. :thumb:

[andreasm]

I have my RS4 B7 now for for nerly 4 years and I have now over 100.000 KM on the clock; the engine runs like on the first day. I don’t have any “carbon build-up” symptoms like power loss, higher consumption, etc… I my point of view “carbon build-up” is not really an issue if the factors are not coming all together. I have some other minor issue with the car after 100.000KM, but not with the engine, the engine is superb.

[Sims]

I have my RS4 B7 now for for nerly 4 years and I have now over 100.000 KM on the clock; the engine runs like on the first day. I don’t have any “carbon build-up” symptoms like power loss, higher consumption, etc… I my point of view “carbon build-up” is not really an issue if the factors are not coming all together. I have some other minor issue with the car after 100.000KM, but not with the engine, the engine is superb.

That's great. So this is the early car, pre 20/2007.

Assuming you are using the right fuel and oil, please tell us:
How long is your average journey:
Average rpm you run it at (difficult qiestion to answer)
do you use the car everyday.


Thanks

[Qisha]

Dear Friends,

for clarification: "promote" is not "cause". To cause "Carbon build-up" more than just one factor has to be achieved and this is where the "promote factors" come into play. To the best of my knowledge there are no "Carbon build-up" problems reported to the quattro GmbH for RS 4 V8 produced after the CW20/2007. Pre- CW20/2007 RS 4 V8 that had "Carbon build-up" problems leading to engine failure or compression loss have been covered with a warranty repair, new improved cylinder head. (different piston rings) Reported cars had high oil consumption, up to 1 liter on 1.000km (within range up to 0.5l every 2.000-2.500km)

If happened the principle of cause and effect varies case-by-case depending on specific parameters. (running-in procedure mishandled etc. for example)

Qisha

[Andyuk911]

Just for the readers ... it is the crankcase breather that feeds back to the manifold, that is why there is oil in the intake AND that is why the poxy thing carbons up.

NOTHING TO DO WITH FUEL

Audi use 'swirl pots' to minimise the oil, but the oil is still in the vapour.

Qisha, If you think this problem has anything to do with piston rings, you are barking up the wrong tree .... try reading the Audi tech guide about the engine....

You may know about new Audi products, but your knowledge of how Direct Injections work is clearly showing.

Per my pm to you, more than happy to call you in Germany and explain ... in fact I'll explain to your 'Audi source' as well .....

ps for the avoidance of doubt, I will still buy a FSI car ....

[andreasm]

That's great. So this is the early car, pre 20/2007.
Assuming you are using the right fuel and oil, please tell us:
How long is your average journey:
Average rpm you run it at (difficult qiestion to answer)
do you use the car everyday.
Thanks

My car production date is April 2006. It’s my everyday car. I’m using the specified fuel and oil (Tell me a reason why not?). My average driving distance is around 60KM (one way) and 90% on the German Autobahn. I drive most of the time relatively fast on the left lane, but unfortunately we have much traffic around Frankfurt. My average fuel consumption is 12L/100KM (I think this is okay for this engine). I need only around 1 liter oil every 15.000km (also very good compared to some others). The first set of front break disks and pads have last over 52.000KM, my second set is still okay, my rear break disks and pads are still the first ones, my Audi dealer complimented me about this because other RS4 drivers have to replace 2-3 times as much (but I don’t drive slow I think this has to do with an forward-locking driving style). I still use my first set of winter tires, but I have worn out my third set of summer tires. Most of the issues I had are specific to the production date of the car (as far as I know) e.g. ABS/ESP warning caused by the solar sunroof, ECU software issue, clutch hydraulic tube issue, adaptiv ligth failure, battery mounting issue…. maybe I should wait a little bit with my RS5 order to give Audi some time to fix the issues of the first generation :-)

[Sims]

Just for the readers ... it is the crankcase breather that feeds back to the manifold, that is why there is oil in the intake AND that is why the poxy thing carbons up.

Tks for that. The tech at my dealer told me " the problem with the RS4 is because it revs so high, and the breather system (thats supposed to send oily vapor back into the engine) cant cope at the high revs and is actually sending large oil droplets (one of the reasons they burn so much oil) then the EGR sticks to the oil droplets and you get sticky oily carbon on the inlet valve. he suggested putting a race car breather system, with a big catch tank, on the engine, then it wouldnt happen". Is that the solution in your opinion?





NOTHING TO DO WITH FUEL But Audi people seem to think fuel quality is even more important in the RS5. And to be frank, the master tech at my dealer did say to me that i should only use Shell Optimax or BP Ultimate. I am confused !!! :looking:




Audi use 'swirl pots' to minimise the oil, but the oil is still in the vapour.

Qisha, If you think this problem has anything to do with piston rings, you are barking up the wrong tree .... try reading the Audi tech guide about the engine....

You may know about new Audi products, but your knowledge of how Direct Injections work is clearly showing.

Per my pm to you, more than happy to call you in Germany and explain ... in fact I'll explain to your 'Audi source' as well .....

ps for the avoidance of doubt, I will still buy a FSI car ....

I look forward to an update on this important issue. Thanks guys.:)

[Sims]

My car production date is April 2006. It’s my everyday car. I’m using the specified fuel and oil (Tell me a reason why not?). My average driving distance is around 60KM (one way) and 90% on the German Autobahn. I drive most of the time relatively fast on the left lane, but unfortunately we have much traffic around Frankfurt. My average fuel consumption is 12L/100KM (I think this is okay for this engine). I need only around 1 liter oil every 15.000km (also very good compared to some others). The first set of front break disks and pads have last over 52.000KM, my second set is still okay, my rear break disks and pads are still the first ones, my Audi dealer complimented me about this because other RS4 drivers have to replace 2-3 times as much (but I don’t drive slow I think this has to do with an forward-locking driving style). I still use my first set of winter tires, but I have worn out my third set of summer tires. Most of the issues I had are specific to the production date of the car (as far as I know) e.g. ABS/ESP warning caused by the solar sunroof, ECU software issue, clutch hydraulic tube issue, adaptiv ligth failure, battery mounting issue…. maybe I should wait a little bit with my RS5 order to give Audi some time to fix the issues of the first generation :-)

Thanks for that detailed report. You seem to be a very sympathetic driver, and seem to have the perfect formula to keep the car in good shape.:0:

[wankeldude]

My car production date is April 2006. It’s my everyday car. I’m using the specified fuel and oil (Tell me a reason why not?). My average driving distance is around 60KM (one way) and 90% on the German Autobahn. I drive most of the time relatively fast on the left lane, but unfortunately we have much traffic around Frankfurt. My average fuel consumption is 12L/100KM (I think this is okay for this engine). I need only around 1 liter oil every 15.000km (also very good compared to some others). The first set of front break disks and pads have last over 52.000KM, my second set is still okay, my rear break disks and pads are still the first ones, my Audi dealer complimented me about this because other RS4 drivers have to replace 2-3 times as much (but I don’t drive slow I think this has to do with an forward-locking driving style). I still use my first set of winter tires, but I have worn out my third set of summer tires. Most of the issues I had are specific to the production date of the car (as far as I know) e.g. ABS/ESP warning caused by the solar sunroof, ECU software issue, clutch hydraulic tube issue, adaptiv ligth failure, battery mounting issue…. maybe I should wait a little bit with my RS5 order to give Audi some time to fix the issues of the first generation :-)

Sounds like you drive it like I drive my mazda 323

[MihokS5]

Andy-you have PM

[KK265]

My car production date is April 2006. It’s my everyday car. I’m using the specified fuel and oil (Tell me a reason why not?). My average driving distance is around 60KM (one way) and 90% on the German Autobahn. I drive most of the time relatively fast on the left lane, but unfortunately we have much traffic around Frankfurt. My average fuel consumption is 12L/100KM (I think this is okay for this engine). I need only around 1 liter oil every 15.000km (also very good compared to some others). The first set of front break disks and pads have last over 52.000KM, my second set is still okay, my rear break disks and pads are still the first ones, my Audi dealer complimented me about this because other RS4 drivers have to replace 2-3 times as much (but I don’t drive slow I think this has to do with an forward-locking driving style). I still use my first set of winter tires, but I have worn out my third set of summer tires. Most of the issues I had are specific to the production date of the car (as far as I know) e.g. ABS/ESP warning caused by the solar sunroof, ECU software issue, clutch hydraulic tube issue, adaptiv ligth failure, battery mounting issue…. maybe I should wait a little bit with my RS5 order to give Audi some time to fix the issues of the first generation :-)

My car is production June 2006.I am very concerned about carbon build-up.I have now 90.000 km.I drive once in a week for 200 km journey at least.Rear brakes are stock, but front after 3 times pad replacement are ceramics six months now.Average consumption 15 l/100km.4 sets of summer tires until now.No track use,Many times aggressive driving until speed limiter.
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8293/dsc00044cfc.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/dsc00044cfc.jpg/)
Photo is from my mobile phone.Maximum trip consumption I have seen is 18l/100km.Oil consumption is 1 liter of oil for 6000 km.I do not know if i have to examine my engine for carbon build up.
Battery mounting issue in worst condition for all rs4 in Greece for me..said my dealer.Also pedal had problem not returning quick .1 shock leaking .I replaced all.No other issues.
P.S 1 8,5 is the time from 220-250 km/h in 5th gear on flat road .Best 8,1 ,worst 9.Is a time I usually check for fuel quality etc.
P.S 2 Sorry for my english.

[Andyuk911]

replied to pm MiHoks5

PP, run Super unleaded, for performance reasons and the cleaning abilities for the injector, do not use normal unleaded.

The extra big catch can was tried by the Golf TFSI boys and did not help ... it was also used on a RS4 B7, same results.

Despite what has been said here and 100's of threads before on other forums, Do NOT get hung up by this. At somepoint, your car will need a decoke, but that is many miles away.

I just don't like people mixing facts where 50% are just plain rubbish !

[iconcls]

.
Do NOT get hung up by this. At somepoint, your car will need a decoke, but that is many miles away.


And to do it right, there are a lot of man hours that go into it; I think people should figure this expense into their cost of ownership consideration.

[Sims]

Despite what has been said here and 100's of threads before on other forums, Do NOT get hung up by this. At somepoint, your car will need a decoke, but that is many miles away.
I just don't like people mixing facts where 50% are just plain rubbish !

Like advertising, you never know which 50% is right though. MRC, a company you referred to, seem to have seen this problem at all sorts of mileages. What do you consider " many miles away". if Audi changed some parts for cars post WC20/2007, what was the reason for that?

Are you with Audi in any way? Thanks very much

[Andyuk911]

I use to own a RS4 B7 Avant. I have no connection with Audi.

I deeply investigated why the RS4 does not make the power claimed, which range from approximately 360 to 390 BHP.

Thus the manifold was investigated as two people had removed the manifold and found loads of carbon on the valves. You need to read www.rs246.com and do a few searches.

I suspect at 50k miles it would be worth cleaning the vanes and valves, provided you have had regular oil changes.

Whatever change Audi made to the engine that Q talks about, has NOTHING todo with carbon build up.

here is a Porsche valve .. just for a bit of balance

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f129/2000sforce/Hoffman_002.jpg

[Sims]

I use to own a RS4 B7 Avant. I have no connection with Audi.

I deeply investigated why the RS4 does not make the power claimed, which range from approximately 360 to 390 BHP.

Thus the manifold was investigated as two people had removed the manifold and found loads of carbon on the valves. You need to read www.rs246.com and do a few searches.

I suspect at 50k miles it would be worth cleaning the vanes and valves, provided you have had regular oil changes.

Whatever change Audi made to the engine that Q talks about, has NOTHING todo with carbon build up.

here is a Porsche valve .. just for a bit of balance



Hope that's not the valve of your 911. :)

So did Audi make the changes ?

What did your deep investigation reveal as to the cause of why RS4's only made between 360 to 390ps?

[Andyuk911]

Nope, only the 997 Gen II is DI

The answers you seek are on RS246 amongst others, have a search.

To get an RS4 B7 near 414bhp, you need to de-cat and remap it.

Lets hope Audi's efforts with the RS5 come up to the mark .. I for one won't buy won until I test a dealer demo car ...

[Sims]

The answers you seek are on RS246 amongst others, have a search....
Is there a simple 1 or 2 line answer that you can help me with?



To get an RS4 B7 near 414bhp, you need to de-cat and remap it....
Is that what Audi would have done to claim the power they do?




Lets hope Audi's efforts with the RS5 come up to the mark ...
I am sure it will, for they have surely put their all into this RS.

[Andyuk911]

PP,

must last word, a thread to all the other threads on the internet, DON'T get hung up on carbon... !

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?337538-Audi-FSI-Engine-Carbon-Build-up-Thread-for-RS4-4.2

If you want Audi's thoughts, pm Mr Q ... love to hear how different piston rings stop this ... :harass:

[Sims]

PP,

must last word, a thread to all the other threads on the internet, DON'T get hung up on carbon... !

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?337538-Audi-FSI-Engine-Carbon-Build-up-Thread-for-RS4-4.2


Thanks Andyuk911.

Someone has checked on ETKA and it seems the piston rings post CW20/2007 are not different.

Cheers

[DHall1]

I dont pop over here very often but noticed Qisha had a few notes.

This carbon situation in the US models was the #1 reason I didnt buy the RS4 or R8. After looking at some intake valves of low mileage cars and the current "fix" to clean them out....I passed on the entire idea. I will keep my RS6 than you very much.

Is it still true that the US models have a bigger problem than euro?

US gas is crap. Even the Shell premium. Our oils are not much better which is why Audi, BMW and Benz all specify certain oils.

Has anyone looked into BND oils and fuel conditioners? The guy is a chemical engineer and puts out a fantastic product. Many of us on the RS6 side use his oils and Aces IV fuel conditioner. I dont make a penny from this but if I had an RS4 in the US.....I would be giving his fuels and oils a consideration. Google BND auto and give Brian a call. You will be amazed.

Good luck with the solution guys.


Dear Friends,

as promised, i would like to say a word or two concerning „Carbon build-up“:

What is “Carbon build-up” and how does it come into being:

With fuel direct injection the cylinder heads and valves are no longer “washed” by fuel, which leads to a lacking “cleaning factor”. This is where the exhaust gas recirculation combined with the ventilation vapor of the crankcase ventilation and oil starts to build up. Particles of dirt and jets of water coming through the air intake path form into firmly adhering layer. This layer is taken up within the chambers of the cylinder heads and the admission valves, resulting in a rough surface, the airflow cross-sections become more narrow leading to non optimal air interlacing and cylinder charge. In total the results of “Carbon build-up” can be bad exhaust emissions, lower power output and higher consumption. In worst case the “Carbon build-up” affects the valve train. The valves can not close completely, which leads to low compression on the relevant cylinder, the fuel composition is not “fired”.

Factors that promote “Carbon build-up”:

Low quality fuel

Frequent short range driving

Preventing higher engine temps

Low RPM driving

intermittent driving

long time „not-using“

using non-specific engine oil


Audi RS 5 and „Carbon build-up“, do i have to worry?

As you might already know, the RS 5 engine ist based on the RS 4 V8 version. Main “Carbon build-up” relevant points that have been altered:

Engine production tolerance over again significant improved

Engine oil temp is increased by ~10°C

Modified piston rings


Resume:

The probability of „Carbon build-up“ within the RS 5 engine is nominal.

Qisha

PS: as the RS 4 V8 was also mentioned you migh like to note, that the engines from build date CW20/2007 received a altered cylinder head with different piston rings.

[MihokS5]

It seems that "carbon" is not really the issue because it is normal on all cars/DI cars, you will have to have it manually cleaned at some point.
The problem I see with the Audi FSI's is that large amount of oil consumption leading to sticky droplets building up on the valves. Can anyone enlighten me on this???

[Sims]

It seems that "carbon" is not really the issue because it is normal on all cars/DI cars, you will have to have it manually cleaned at some point.
The problem I see with the Audi FSI's is that large amount of oil consumption leading to sticky droplets building up on the valves. Can anyone enlighten me on this???

Here is one that was cleaned, and the result after 1300 miles.
http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=161130&sid=eb574a9886eb0110f2d376a6ad27ad1b&start=165

What does it effect - power, fuel/oil consumption? Anyone care to comment?

[DHall1]

Looks like time for a buy back.

I would stuff that car so far down Audi pants....they would never find it.




Here is one that was cleaned, and the result after 1300 miles.
http://www.tt-forum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=161130&sid=eb574a9886eb0110f2d376a6ad27ad1b&start=165

What does it effect - power, fuel/oil consumption? Anyone care to comment?

[Sims]

Looks like time for a buy back.

I would stuff that car so far down Audi pants....they would never find it.

I can sympathise with what you say, but what if it does not affect the power or the fuel consumption, and it's merely cosmetic as some people seem to think??

[Tanner]

I can sympathise with what you say, but what if it does not affect the power or the fuel consumption, and it's merely cosmetic as some people seem to think??

It does affect power. Couple guys on quattroworld.com dyno'ed their RS4 before and after the cleaning and there's a difference in the charts and such. I've always wondered about measuring something like the MAF before and after to see if that could be used to determine how bad the buildup *could* be without trying to put a boroscope through the intake (I tried on my 2.0T and the end of the scope kept on getting covered in oil).

[Sims]

It does affect power. Couple guys on quattroworld.com dyno'ed their RS4 before and after the cleaning and there's a difference in the charts and such. I've always wondered about measuring something like the MAF before and after to see if that could be used to determine how bad the buildup *could* be without trying to put a boroscope through the intake (I tried on my 2.0T and the end of the scope kept on getting covered in oil).


Clearly there are different opinions and experience. May I please have a link to the thread you mention about the before & after cleaning?

[PetrolDave]

My car is production June 2006.I am very concerned about carbon build-up.I have now 90.000 km.I drive once in a week for 200 km journey at least.Rear brakes are stock, but front after 3 times pad replacement are ceramics six months now.Average consumption 15 l/100km.4 sets of summer tires until now.No track use,Many times aggressive driving until speed limiter.
Is the performance of your car significantly worse now than when it was new?

Yes, then you need to have the cause investigated and not just assume it is due to carbon build up.

No, then why be concerned?

[KK265]

Is the performance of your car significantly worse now than when it was new?

Yes, then you need to have the cause investigated and not just assume it is due to carbon build up.

No, then why be concerned?
I do not feel any significant difference about performance.Only little bit vibration more on idle and at 2500 rpm from engine.But I do not like the pictures I see from other users with problems.So I am concerned.

[Tanner]

Clearly there are different opinions and experience. May I please have a link to the thread you mention about the before & after cleaning?

I don't have the links but the discussion is on http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/

[KK265]

Piston damage:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7I4OAQHm7c&feature=related

[DHall1]

cosmetic holes in pistons? any other questions.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7I4OAQHm7c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAiViR8x0Qo</EMBED>

[Marv]

This might sound like a silly question (but that's never stopped me before :hihi:)...

All modern diesel engines are direct injection and presumably suffer the same exhaust gas recirculation and piston ring leak issues - do they not also suffer carbon build up?

[MR USER]

My RS4 has now 94k km. I brought it in last week to have few things checked and all 4 brakes replaced.
One of the tests I asked Adi to carry out is cilinder compression. THe results were surprisingly good! However most of the km I did no my car were on stretches of 3-4 hundred Km at time and using the full rev band... In toher words the engine was properly used. However while talking to a friend thta owns a very large dealership in Italy I learned that few of his clients complained about loss of power. What he did is cleaning the manifolds (i guess that is the right name... I'm referring to the pipes attached to the engine that get the exahust gasses out of the cylinders). He noted a large build up of particles that were reducing significantly the diameter thus reducing the flow of gasses out of the engine. The result he mentioned is a gain of about 80 bhp... I'm no expert and for as much as it make sense cleaning the manifolds the power gain seems axaggerated.... moreover it takes 4 hours to clean them and another 10 to take the engine down.... so the total price could be very very high!

Any comments on that? Would you reccomend doing such work?

[GEN XER]

This was also addressed here. I actually put most of these questions to BND Auto and you can read his answers here.

http://www.rs6.com/showthread.php/17946-Carbon-deposits-in-our-engines

[GEN XER]

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ALSO TRY: QuantumBlue Vinyl and Fabric Stain and UV Protectors.

[GEN XER]

Has anyone with an FSI/ TFSI called BND yet? This thread just died.

[DanielV6]

Dear Friends,

as promised, i would like to say a word or two concerning „Carbon build-up“:

What is “Carbon build-up” and how does it come into being:

With fuel direct injection the cylinder heads and valves are no longer “washed” by fuel, which leads to a lacking “cleaning factor”. This is where the exhaust gas recirculation combined with the ventilation vapor of the crankcase ventilation and oil starts to build up. Particles of dirt and jets of water coming through the air intake path form into firmly adhering layer. This layer is taken up within the chambers of the cylinder heads and the admission valves, resulting in a rough surface, the airflow cross-sections become more narrow leading to non optimal air interlacing and cylinder charge. In total the results of “Carbon build-up” can be bad exhaust emissions, lower power output and higher consumption. In worst case the “Carbon build-up” affects the valve train. The valves can not close completely, which leads to low compression on the relevant cylinder, the fuel composition is not “fired”.

Factors that promote “Carbon build-up”:

Low quality fuel

Frequent short range driving

Preventing higher engine temps

Low RPM driving

intermittent driving

long time „not-using“

using non-specific engine oil


Audi RS 5 and „Carbon build-up“, do i have to worry?

As you might already know, the RS 5 engine ist based on the RS 4 V8 version. Main “Carbon build-up” relevant points that have been altered:

Engine production tolerance over again significant improved

Engine oil temp is increased by ~10°C

Modified piston rings


Resume:

The probability of „Carbon build-up“ within the RS 5 engine is nominal.

Qisha

PS: as the RS 4 V8 was also mentioned you migh like to note, that the engines from build date CW20/2007 received a altered cylinder head with different piston rings.


Dear Qisha, thanks a lot for your post, I think it's very interesting.

I do own one that unfortunately has a build date of mid 2006 therefore I'm affected by the above, the engine is burning 1kg of Castrol Edge in less than 1500km.

I wrote an email to the italian importer about the issue but obviously they were not aware about this nor been informed by Ingolstadt.

Could you recommend an interface in Ingolstadt which I'd pleased do drop few lines about the issue and if there's any chance to make it work thru the italian dealer?

Thanks again for your help, very much appreciated.

Kind regards

Daniele

[KK265]

Dear friends I decided to open and examine my engine today.So I went to my dealer.These are today photos by my mobile phone.This is what happens in an RS4 b7 after 100000 km (included 95% urban driving and a lot of aggresive driving).The problem is obvious:
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/163/intakevlaves1.th.jpg (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/intakevlaves1.jpg/)
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9317/engineout.th.jpg (http://img208.imageshack.us/i/engineout.jpg/)
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1571/exhasustvalves2.th.jpg (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/exhasustvalves2.jpg/)
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8247/exhaustvalves1.th.jpg (http://img85.imageshack.us/i/exhaustvalves1.jpg/)
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8978/exhaustvalves3.th.jpg (http://img338.imageshack.us/i/exhaustvalves3.jpg/)
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1369/intakevalves2.th.jpg (http://img6.imageshack.us/i/intakevalves2.jpg/)
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2294/intakevalves3.th.jpg (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/intakevalves3.jpg/)
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/3793/intakevalves4.th.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/intakevalves4.jpg/)
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2543/intakevalves5.th.jpg (http://img713.imageshack.us/i/intakevalves5.jpg/)
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3570/intakevalves6.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/intakevalves6.jpg/)
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6161/intakevalves7.th.jpg (http://img820.imageshack.us/i/intakevalves7.jpg/)
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5348/intakevalves8.th.jpg (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/intakevalves8.jpg/)

[Sims]

That looks bad. Was the power/fuel consumption affected?

But what next?

[KK265]

That looks bad. Was the power/fuel consumption affected?

But what next?
Yes.I guess I lost about 25 HP BECAUSE IN 3th gear 3000-8000 rpm it needed 9 secs and when it was new 8,3 secs as all new cars.220-250 km/h on 5 th gear 9,3 secs average .Previous 8,3 secs.Also on 85000 km I changed plugs and fuel economy after 90000 was worst!About 1 liter per 100 km. I had also some vibrations about 1500-1700 rpm and 4200 rpm.1 week before my decision i met another boy with the same car ,also 100000 km , who had major damage in his car.Compression ratio in 4th cylinder 7.He replaced all engine!So I decided to measure comression ratio.On 3 th cylinder mine was 10,3!Best in 1 th cylinder 14,4.All others between 11-12.So I made my decision easier.The other guy went to dyno after and was 25 HP on wheels .Previous measurement was 1 year before damage.Next step is to clean everything is black in the engine.I wiil post as soon as possible new photos.I am a little far away of my car now.

[DHall1]

Time to stick it back up Audi's you know what.

Engine replacement at 100k/km?

What a joke. I would expect this from a Chevy not a top level Audi RS.




Yes.I guess I lost about 25 HP BECAUSE IN 3th gear 3000-8000 rpm it needed 9 secs and when it was new 8,3 secs as all new cars.220-250 km/h on 5 th gear 9,3 secs average .Previous 8,3 secs.Also on 85000 km I changed plugs and fuel economy after 90000 was worst!About 1 liter per 100 km. I had also some vibrations about 1500-1700 rpm and 4200 rpm.1 week before my decision i met another boy with the same car ,also 100000 km , who had major damage in his car.Compression ratio in 4th cylinder 7.He replaced all engine!So I decided to measure comression ratio.On 3 th cylinder mine was 10,3!Best in 1 th cylinder 14,4.All others between 11-12.So I made my decision easier.The other guy went to dyno after and was 25 HP on wheels .Previous measurement was 1 year before damage.Next step is to clean everything is black in the engine.I wiil post as soon as possible new photos.I am a little far away of my car now.

[GEN XER]

The reason why Im not buying any TSI/ FSI motor from VAG. Ill keep buying R32 motors and putting them in my mk4. I bet the additive VAG came up with did not work either.

[DHall1]

And the same reason I dont have a RS4 or R8 parked next to my C5 RS6 out in the garage.

No deal Audi.


The reason why Im not buying any TSI/ FSI motor from VAG. Ill keep buying R32 motors and putting them in my mk4. I bet the additive VAG came up with did not work either.

[KK265]

Same engine after cleaning:
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9426/engineafter8.th.jpg (http://img687.imageshack.us/i/engineafter8.jpg/)
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/3028/engineafter7.th.jpg (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/engineafter7.jpg/)
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6320/intakevalvesafter2.th.jpg (http://img175.imageshack.us/i/intakevalvesafter2.jpg/)
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4595/intakevalvesafter1.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/i/intakevalvesafter1.jpg/)
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/7346/intakevalvesafter8.th.jpg (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/intakevalvesafter8.jpg/)
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/2370/intakevalvesafter3.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/intakevalvesafter3.jpg/)
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/4748/intakevalvesafter4.th.jpg (http://img685.imageshack.us/i/intakevalvesafter4.jpg/)
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/2808/intakevalvesafter5.th.jpg (http://img375.imageshack.us/i/intakevalvesafter5.jpg/)
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/2999/intakevalvesafter6.th.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/i/intakevalvesafter6.jpg/)

[Sims]

Looks like a new engine, how much did it cost?

[KK265]

Looks like a new engine, how much did it cost?
Sorry but I do not know yet exactly because the car is not ready yet.I have to retrofit isofix,rear pad replacement ,a recall about ceramic bolts .. I will see exactly on Wednesday when I will pick up the car if everything is ok.I think the cleaning of the engine,manifold,valves etc costs about 1000-1300 euro and about 2000 euro engine and parts out of the car and back again including assembly, some parts as gaskets ,oil,fluids etc
I think they make good job and I will enjoy my car for another 100000 km without problem!!

[GEN XER]

So every 100km or 62K Miles you will need to take the engine apart and have it cleaned. Wow VAG just lost me on this one. What is the warranty on these cars again 4/50K so you will be outside the warranty, oh never mind the warranty you cant get this fixed under warranty anyway. This reminds me of an old Quaker State motor. Who uses that oil anymore? Hint Hint!!

[Sims]

Only in the USA... Carbon cleaning under warranty.


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/384576-RS4-Carbon-Cleaning-Under-Warranty-Thread

[Damienr8]

Only in the USA... Carbon cleaning under warranty.


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/384576-RS4-Carbon-Cleaning-Under-Warranty-Thread

Sorry to drift slightly off topic but can anyone confirm that BOTH the Carbon Cleaning and DRC replacement are covered under warranty?

regards,
Damien