manuals going the way of the Dodo

[Benman]

In the recent EVO, Ferrari CEO Amedeo Felisa was asked about a manual for the new 458. In fact, in regards to the new DCT system, the question was worded, "Is this the end of manual gearboxes in Ferraris?"

His response:

"Yes, it is. The 458 will not be available as a manual, nor will future Ferraris as customers no longer request one".

So, I bring this up for those like RXBG that are very fond of manuals. Now, let's be honest, I doubt any would say that a brand as a whole is more sporty than Ferrari, so if Ferrari says they are out, it is only a matter of time before the other "halo" sports brands follow suit.

So the fact that the GT-R is "only" available as an "auto" is a no issue since this is the trend. Hell, even Eric was suggesting Porsche should be giving the customer the choice of PDK.

"Times, they are a changing..."

Ben:addict:

[Erik]

Just look at the RS6, M5, M6, MB AMG etc.

How succesful was the new BMW M5 manual that the customers "had to have or else"...? ;)

In the future, after many years of autos only, perhaps we will see some "going back to basic".

I am sure some brands like Porsche will keep offering both "forever".

My understanding is that an auto also help to get better values in the EU emission cycle (not that it has anything to do with real life emissions, but autos get an advantage as they can go into higher gears sooner.)

[JavierNuvolari]

Very sad really...takes away the "passion" and interaction of driving a car...when I'm old I will drive auto only, for sure...but now and until further notice, manual for me thank you very much.

[Benman]

Very sad really...takes away the "passion" and interaction of driving a car...
I can understand this, but Ferrari has really thrown down the gauntlet. Like it or leave it, this will be the future. I think there will be things we miss about manuals, but for everyday driving, I miss nothing about a manual and would not even mind a semi-auto for a motorcycle (which already have them on models like the Yamaha FJR).


Soon we will not have to remember to shift any more than we have to remember to "take the choke off!" :D

Ben:addict:

[krm]

It's nice to know that Porsche still puts in manual only in it's top tier line up (GT2 / GT3 RS / GT3) to give the owners the full on driving experience. I guess it's only a matter of time until we see more PDK optionality available in the future variant(s).

Only have had manual cars so far in my car ownership. Wonder if I will succumb to something with a sequential twin-clutch setup next. To me, nothing at this point beats the sensation of driving a manual though.

[RXBG]

In the recent EVO, Ferrari CEO Amedeo Felisa was asked about a manual for the new 458. In fact, in regards to the new DCT system, the question was worded, "Is this the end of manual gearboxes in Ferraris?"

His response:

"Yes, it is. The 458 will not be available as a manual, nor will future Ferraris as customers no longer request one".

So, I bring this up for those like RXBG that are very fond of manuals. Now, let's be honest, I doubt any would say that a brand as a whole is more sporty than Ferrari, so if Ferrari says they are out, it is only a matter of time before the other "halo" sports brands follow suit.

So the fact that the GT-R is "only" available as an "auto" is a no issue since this is the trend. Hell, even Eric was suggesting Porsche should be giving the customer the choice of PDK.

"Times, they are a changing..."

Ben:addict:

simple Ben,

the buyers dictate what is sold. each car co. indirectly represents the desires of its particular buyer group. the typical exotic car buyer will whore himself out to whatever is the latest or greatest just because they can and wish to have the latest and the greatest even if they never track it and simply drive to the golf club at low speeds so their toupe doesn't fall off. times will always change, gone are the days of the model a and t with the manual spark starter system. the day will come when, car culture having become so identical and homogenized, will have have one car manufacturer suddenly revert back to a manual tranny of some sort "to provide a genuine driving experience"- and watch that option cost MORE than a DSG or TSG or whatever is standard at the time. it will be named car of the year by motor trend and so on....

ferrari sells what it has to sell. i have never been a fan of porsche, but i have deep respect for them as a company for their dedication to traditional driving- making a point of it with the CGT having only a manual. look at a CGT or ENZO side by side- in general the CGT will many more miles- and you can actually have a conversation with the driver.

imo, ferrari is a sell out. even if only on principle it should offer a manual option - regardless of what the marketing department says.

no matter what happens in the future i will always feel this way:

three pedals = driving
two pedals = guiding

yes. this applies to schumaker in his F1 car too.

PS: if tomorrow ferrari starts making cars with optional automated steering wheels that's what ferrari drivers will order. i can promise you that. and 5 years later when 95% of buyers only spec their cars that way ferrari will stop making cars with steering wheels.

[tailpipe]

Let's put this debate into perspective. Where you have a fully automatic gearbox and do nothing more than accelerate and break - that is very boring. But where you have a DSG box that allows you to hold gears until you want to change them - well that's entirely different.

I think what Ferrari is really talking about is rendering the traditional clutch obsolete, no?

[goodduck]

So much Ferrari's R&D $$$ goes to the devloping and advancing these systems. With so many automakers nipping at Ferrari's heels, they have to sell the F1 / high tech state of the art aspect to stay on top. Having a manual F458 is not only a waste of their investment, but leaves them with two fundamentally different cars: a (high tech) race car for the road or a supercar thats hard to differentiate from a porsche, lambo, or pagani.

That being said, something is definitely lost in the experience. This only makes F's like the 355 that much cooler.

[Yellow RS6]

It doesn't help that a lot of the cars offering a manual can't seem to get it right. Either they have long throws (and/or rubbery shifters), on/off clutch uptake (or a heavy clutch), or poor pedal placement. Examples:
G35/37
Mazdaspeed3
GTO
'10 Legacy GT 2.5T

And, I'm sorry, as much as C&D raves about BMW manuals, I think they have long throws and a rubbery feel. I've been considering a manual again after 6 years of auto, but it doesn't help when most of the cars you test-drive just don't inspire you to get back into a manual. I will say, one car that I had a great experience with was an '09 GTI that I test-drove back in Aug. I drove a DSG and 6-speed back-to-back and while the DSG was really cool, I enjoyed that 6-speed. I assume an Audi manual would have a similiar feel, but it's really hard to find one to verify.

[RXBG]

So much Ferrari's R&D $$$ goes to the devloping and advancing these systems. With so many automakers nipping at Ferrari's heels, they have to sell the F1 / high tech state of the art aspect to stay on top. Having a manual F458 is not only a waste of their investment, but leaves them with two fundamentally different cars: a (high tech) race car for the road or a supercar thats hard to differentiate from a porsche, lambo, or pagani.

That being said, something is definitely lost in the experience. This only makes F's like the 355 that much cooler.

you drive the point i was trying to make. the perception that a supercar is high tech only if it has an automated gearbox. that is a myth in the traditional sense -in the sense that it has turned into a common belief based on no concrete, explicit, direct facts- like paul bunyan or che guevara's heroism. supercar classification has a big gray area and no specific concrete criteria.

seen pragmatically a two pedal supercar doesnt make it a supercar any better or worse than a three pedal counterpart, only different, or faster perhaps. imo- a three pedal gives you a more nuanced and visceral experienced. as jay leno said-" it is more exciting to drive a slow car fast than a fast car fast"

[Benman]

that is a myth in the traditional sense -in the sense that it has turned into a common belief based on no concrete, explicit, direct facts- like paul bunyan or che guevara's heroism.

Best quote of 2009. Check and mate. Well said. :applause:

Ben:addict:

[rks838]

RXBG is right, there isn't a right answer here, it's all subjective. That said, my opinion is that a supercar is not about lap times but driver involvement and high overall performance. The car cannot be doing all of the work, so I like traditional stick and clutch manuals. It's the extra physical coordination of using a clutch and stick that I enjoy.

Tailpipe is right - nobody's getting rid of the manual, just the standard manual with a clutch. AKA, the fun, interesting, challenging, slightly slower one.

Ferrari has "sold out," but rightfully so. They're a business, they've got money to make. Those attracted to it often seem to buy for the prestige of the brand rather than the legendary driving experience, so I'm not surprised. Still, I don't think we need to lose hope. I think there will always be a number of people who prefer a manual transmission, and some manufacturers will always cater to this group, even if it becomes a niche group, which is the direction it's headed. The auto world is too competitive to leave such a niche uncovered.

By the way, Yellow RS6 - I was on the fence between a GTI and an used A4 2.0T S-line. I drove both, and the shifters certainly didn't help me make the decision - both feel nearly identical and are a joy!

[Yellow RS6]

By the way, Yellow RS6 - I was on the fence between a GTI and an used A4 2.0T S-line. I drove both, and the shifters certainly didn't help me make the decision - both feel nearly identical and are a joy!

I would love to find a manual A4 2.0T S-line, but there are SCARCE!

Update - I sold the yellow RS6 last Friday and am seriously car shopping now. Yesterday I drove 2 GTIs again (the new Mk6 this time), once again one DSG and the other a manual. And once again, I'm torn. The DSG is a hoot, especially the perfect downshifts, and I've been waiting for this type of technology to trickle down since it first appeared in the US back in the mid-90s (F355 F1). But..........once again, the manual felt great! The clutch was light, with smooth take-up (vs. the Mazdaspeed 3's quite heavy clutch and on/off uptake) and a sweet shifter with tight, defined gates. This is a car that is tempting me to get into a stick-shift again. And it would be $1100 cheaper than a DSG.

After my drives yesterday, I'm 99% sure a new GTI is what I'm getting, there just isn't another new car for $25-30K that compares. Now I just have to decide what trans to get.......

[RXBG]

just saw a new GTI the other day. looked way better than the outgoing one- more mature and serious-looking.

if you do a lot of city driving the DSG is the way to go. even in my late 20's in DC my knees were bugging me in DC traffic.

----can't go wrong with either one.

[tailpipe]

The new Golf Mk 6 GTI is just brilliant. I absolutely love it. They really seem to have honed its many different parts to make it a remarkably complete package. The ACC is another gizmo that really helps improve the overall experience. The balance between ride comfort and tenacious road-holding is astonishing. I also like the way in which they've improved the sound insulation together with the increased cabin quality making a great interior environment - every bit as good as an A6 IMHO. The sheer pace of the thing is no less surprising. Then factor-in the great economy and practicality and I think it is a hard car to beat. I've driven both the manual and the DSG and while the manual is without doubt very accomplished, DSG pushes the car up a whole other level. Accelerate hard and change up and the switch from one gear to the next is almost imperceptible without the aural drop in revs that occurs afterwards. Then, thanks to generous turbos, it immediately revs to the next threshold. Because the car is relatively light, you feel the force of the acceleration in your backside and lower back. I find you really can hold it in one gear very well before calling on the next with the paddles. You almost run out of road before you run out of gears. In fact, it is so perfect that it brings the broadest of grins to your face. VW / Audi has got DSG so right in its front wheel drive incarnations, i can't imagine going back to a manual.

I understand that VW / Audi is working on a new 7-speed DSG box for models with high torque / bhp outputs. I tend to think that an Audi TT RS with DSG will be a very fine automobile indeed and even faster than it already is.

One other snippet. With the new 911 Turbo, Porsche has added proper paddle shifts to the DSG set up. I haven't tried this yet, but I rather suspect that when it appears on the next generation 911 Carrera S, i will have run out of excuses for not buying a Porsche.

In the meantime, I have just one problem with my GTI and a remaining excuse for not buying either the RS5 or 911: a car with 265 bhp, AWD and styling so subtle that it just exudes elegant style.

The Golf R.

[Z07]

In the recent EVO, Ferrari CEO Amedeo Felisa was asked about a manual for the new 458. In fact, in regards to the new DCT system, the question was worded, "Is this the end of manual gearboxes in Ferraris?"

His response:

"Yes, it is. The 458 will not be available as a manual, nor will future Ferraris as customers no longer request one".

So, I bring this up for those like RXBG that are very fond of manuals. Now, let's be honest, I doubt any would say that a brand as a whole is more sporty than Ferrari, so if Ferrari says they are out, it is only a matter of time before the other "halo" sports brands follow suit.

So the fact that the GT-R is "only" available as an "auto" is a no issue since this is the trend. Hell, even Eric was suggesting Porsche should be giving the customer the choice of PDK.

"Times, they are a changing..."

Ben:addict:
In 30 years time nobody will care about manuals. They'll be looked at in the same way that cars with drum brakes and no ABS are looked upon now.

[Benman]

In 30 years time nobody will care about manuals. They'll be looked at in the same way that cars with drum brakes and no ABS are looked upon now.

Amen, and I could not agree more.

RXBG, your point about city driving is similar to mine. Yes, manuals are definately more "engaging" but I want a car I can use at all times (cause So Cal traffic SUCKS), not just on back roads and on the track. Hence why I am over manuals. Still like em', just no longer "need" them. :D

Ben:addict:

[ffforever]

It doesn't help that a lot of the cars offering a manual can't seem to get it right. Either they have long throws (and/or rubbery shifters), on/off clutch uptake (or a heavy clutch), or poor pedal placement. Examples:
G35/37
Mazdaspeed3
GTO
'10 Legacy GT 2.5T

And, I'm sorry, as much as C&D raves about BMW manuals, I think they have long throws and a rubbery feel. I've been considering a manual again after 6 years of auto, but it doesn't help when most of the cars you test-drive just don't inspire you to get back into a manual. I will say, one car that I had a great experience with was an '09 GTI that I test-drove back in Aug. I drove a DSG and 6-speed back-to-back and while the DSG was really cool, I enjoyed that 6-speed. I assume an Audi manual would have a similiar feel, but it's really hard to find one to verify.


I have driven a manual S3, 135i and mark V GTI. The VW/Audi manual gearbox is much nicer to use, the clutch is light and the shift is easy. BMW box has long throw and can be difficult to engage, it is good if you are driving it hard but for daily use the VW/Audi gearbox is much superior. And yes the GTI and S3 gearbox feel very similar.

[QuattroFun]

The manual will generally live on in driver's cars as an alternative - despite the Ferrari decision, which is more reflective of their typical buyer and the F1 heritage. However, the new breed of DCT boxes are very good and much nicer in feel that traditional auto boxes - if the R8 would have been offered with a great DCT and not the crappy single clutch e-gear box, it would surely have outsold the manual hands down given the typical buyer profile. RS5 will not suffer from probably being DSG only - the NA feature will be much more controversial for some though.

In fact, I would not swap back to a manual anymore. I even mostly drive in auto mode, despite having owned and loved four audis in a row all with nice manuals. But I am indeed older and lazyer now...