New Tranny, but it still slips just like the old one did.

[Hy Octane]

OK. So, had a complete Reman unit installed. One of the things that annoyed me is that the old unit developed a small slippage between 2000 and 3000 rpm when you lift off and then get back on the gas, say if you are on the highway going 65-70 in 5th gear... I have mentioned this here a few times over the last few years. The interesting thing is that it didnt do this when the car was new,. and I thought that when this symptom started a few years ago, it was being caused by something wrong. Now, having a new unit doing exactly the same thing as well as a more gradual gear engagement after shifting as it now eases you into the next gear instead of a firm shift causes me to wonder if this may be the result of a software upgrade (or downgrade if you prefer) that may have been applied to my car during a previous service and now is standard on all replacement units.I also notice that with this new unit that First gear wont engage by itself until almost at a complete stop where it used to downshift a bit sooner, so now I am moving off alot more while still in 2nd gear.. Why? Well, it would seem that Audi may have decided to do this in order to reduce the stress on the TC that were failing by the dozens and costing them more than they wanted to spend. So, I believe they have programmed more slip into the tranny to extend the life of a transmission that cant handle the power of the engine. Lets face it, a transmission is the meat of the car and is expected to last its lifetime.. not to be replaced every 40k miles.. right>?
Soooo. Just wanted to ask you guys to see if you are noticing this syndrome when you drive yours.. Check it out and see. I'd like to get an idea if this is universal or not.

Next time on the highway, in TIP mode, get up to 65-70 and try this in 4th and 5th gears. You want to see around 2000-2500 rpm.. Lift off the accelerator for a second then resume..Do this a few times in a row... Does it seem like its slipping a bit when you reapply power? Do the revs jump up a few hundred rpm and then slide back?

After 3000 rpm the torque converter locks up and all is ok.. But why this slippage in that rev band. Its most annoying since this is the rev range I usually cruise in and it makes my passengers ask about it.. "Wow, an expensive car like this does that??"

See if yours does it.

[RS6-4dr911]

I understand the apparent logic of slippage reducing impact stress on the tranny, but conventional wisdom seems to be that it is in fact the extra slippage programmed into US versions that is at least partially to blame for the failures - hence the MTM (and similar) TCU reprogramming that reduces the slippage and quickens the gear changes.

I vaguely recall a similar feeling on mine a few times, although mine now has the MTM TCU upgrade and I've been very pleased. 3/4 or more throttle upshifts are very crisp.

I have accepted that this is a weak link of the car and make it a point to be easy on the tranny, trying to make it clear to the brain exactly what it is that I'm requesting, i.e., no rapid lift/press of the throttle. Smooth is fast, and long-lasting. (That's what she said).

[Shoppinit]

Why don't you log what the torque converter is doing while driving it. I noticed mine doing what you described and was surprised because I thought that if it was locked up there shouldn't be any slippage.

It is only when you lift off then put the gas back on. If you accelerate without lifting off slightly then the TC remains locked up.

[Qisha]

Dear Hy Octane,

the converter used in the ZF 5HP24A transmission has a efficiency of ~85% (clutch section ~95%). Therefore a mayor part of the input torque is converted in heat. The torque peak is limited to 560NM due to physical limitations. What you "feel" is the torque converter lock-up clutch beeing involved (slippage) by the TCU Software. Easy said this calculated by several factors, i.e. RPMs, accelerator pedal position and personal driving style (as the TCU Software adapts to your personal driving style). After a tranmission change the adaptive values learned by the TCU are supposed to be reseted.

My guess, as a responsible driver you gave the new transmission a gentle driving style- this is what the TCU learned. Try to let your dealer reset the TCU values. After that, "train" your transmission in a more aggressive way, Kickdowns etc.

The OE TCU Software is made to assure a lifecycle run of approx. 150.000KM, combined with proper service of course. TCU tuning gives benefits in shift times an earlier converter lock-up, part of transfering higher input torque leading to a higher internal temperature and higher wear with reduced overall lifespan. FYI the oil used in modern automatic transmissions do have a viscosity of 33 mm²/s at 40° celcius, at 100° celsius only 7 mm²/s. The RS6 does have a 2nd oil cooler in addition to a heat sink, to assure the transmission oil temperature stays within the needed range. This works well with OE specs. For tuned cars the only recommendable workflows are a transmission oil change every 15.000KM and 2nd to that a transmission oil filter change every 30.000KM. This does not prevent higher wear but copes with the reduced oil service life.

Ask your dealer for the TCU software status and forward it to me. I doublecheck on it.

Qisha

[JavierNuvolari]

Dear Hy Octane,

the converter used in the ZF 5HP24A transmission has a efficiency of ~85% (clutch section ~95%). Therefore a mayor part of the input torque is converted in heat. The torque peak is limited to 560NM due to physical limitations. What you "feel" is the torque converter lock-up clutch beeing involved (slippage) by the TCU Software. Easy said this calculated by several factors, i.e. RPMs, accelerator pedal position and personal driving style (as the TCU Software adapts to your personal driving style). After a tranmission change the adaptive values learned by the TCU are supposed to be reseted.

My guess, as a responsible driver you gave the new transmission a gentle driving style- this is what the TCU learned. Try to let your dealer reset the TCU values. After that, "train" your transmission in a more aggressive way, Kickdowns etc.

The OE TCU Software is made to assure a lifecycle run of approx. 150.000KM, combined with proper service of course. TCU tuning gives benefits in shift times an earlier converter lock-up, part of transfering higher input torque leading to a higher internal temperature and higher wear with reduced overall lifespan. FYI the oil used in modern automatic transmissions do have a viscosity of 33 mm²/s at 40° celcius, at 100° celsius only 7 mm²/s. The RS6 does have a 2nd oil cooler in addition to a heat sink, to assure the transmission oil temperature stays within the needed range. This works well with OE specs. For tuned cars the only recommendable workflows are a transmission oil change every 15.000KM and 2nd to that a transmission oil filter change every 30.000KM. This does not prevent higher wear but copes with the reduced oil service life.

Ask your dealer for the TCU software status and forward it to me. I doublecheck on it.

Qisha

Wow...every brand specific forum should have a "Qisha" ;).

Best of luck solving the problem Hy Octane.

Saludos.

[RS6-4dr911]

Qisha,

Can you share what those physical limitations are? What exactly needs beefing up to endure the roughly 500+ ft-lbs of torque that most chips claim to produce?

[Rad-RS6]

subscribed

[Hy Octane]

Qisha old friend.. Thank you!
This never occurred to me. I will do as you recommend and report back soon. I will be taking the car in soon to get the DRC replaced and I will have them reset the TCU then. You are correct in assuming that I have been easy on the new transmission knowing how delicate it is. Thank you for the information. Cheers..

[mmaturo]

OK. So, had a complete Reman unit installed. One of the things that annoyed me is that the old unit developed a small slippage between 2000 and 3000 rpm when you lift off and then get back on the gas, say if you are on the highway going 65-70 in 5th gear... I have mentioned this here a few times over the last few years. The interesting thing is that it didnt do this when the car was new,. and I thought that when this symptom started a few years ago, it was being caused by something wrong. Now, having a new unit doing exactly the same thing as well as a more gradual gear engagement after shifting as it now eases you into the next gear instead of a firm shift causes me to wonder if this may be the result of a software upgrade (or downgrade if you prefer) that may have been applied to my car during a previous service and now is standard on all replacement units.I also notice that with this new unit that First gear wont engage by itself until almost at a complete stop where it used to downshift a bit sooner, so now I am moving off alot more while still in 2nd gear.. Why? Well, it would seem that Audi may have decided to do this in order to reduce the stress on the TC that were failing by the dozens and costing them more than they wanted to spend. So, I believe they have programmed more slip into the tranny to extend the life of a transmission that cant handle the power of the engine. Lets face it, a transmission is the meat of the car and is expected to last its lifetime.. not to be replaced every 40k miles.. right>?
Soooo. Just wanted to ask you guys to see if you are noticing this syndrome when you drive yours.. Check it out and see. I'd like to get an idea if this is universal or not.

Next time on the highway, in TIP mode, get up to 65-70 and try this in 4th and 5th gears. You want to see around 2000-2500 rpm.. Lift off the accelerator for a second then resume..Do this a few times in a row... Does it seem like its slipping a bit when you reapply power? Do the revs jump up a few hundred rpm and then slide back?

After 3000 rpm the torque converter locks up and all is ok.. But why this slippage in that rev band. Its most annoying since this is the rev range I usually cruise in and it makes my passengers ask about it.. "Wow, an expensive car like this does that??"

See if yours does it.


Well as the other poster here of non ending tranny issues (number 3 in the car, 4 TC) mine feels exactly as you describe on a 6 month old replacement. At the passing speeds you mention i get a sort of stutter step like it is slightly slipping/modulating hesitation and not the instant burst i used to get. I also feel it when jumping into the trottle at 20 to 30 say after a slow curve...essentially when starting at low rpms. So 6 month old tranny acts not night and day difference to the one that was just replaced. Mine is similar in 1st but i never really paid attention to that (whether the car always did it) until it clearly stopped going into 1 coming to a stop then would clunk abruptly into gear.

I thought this time it felt more like a momentary loss of boost so asked about any boost leaks or similar causing it the last time my car was in...they said everything was fine.

I am interested in the concept of resetting the TCU 'learning' as I did baby mine for a bit after the replacement and i know my dealer is not good at resetting things as i figured out with my fuel gauge/trip computer issue.

[Qisha]

Qisha,

Can you share what those physical limitations are? What exactly needs beefing up to endure the roughly 500+ ft-lbs of torque that most chips claim to produce?

Dear RS6-4dr911,

as you might already know the ZF 5HP24A was first used within the Audi A8 12 cylinder. At the time the first Gen. RS6 was under development this transmission was the only AWD able version within the company. ZF was asked to reinforce this transmission for use within the RS6-, in order to make it able to cope with even more torque, that it was already able to manage (we are talking about 10 percent more -> ~630NM). Unfortunately ZF has to pass on this due to cost/value factors. Of course the transmission is not running on the edge with 560NM but this number is what ZF assured for a manufacturers car lifecycle quality assurance. You might be interested in differencies between a stock ZF 5HP24A and the version used within the RS6:

-reinforced manifold- and transmission housing

-raised clutch pressure

-reinforced brake band "D" -> one disc more

-reinforced gearing spur pinion

-diameter torque converter raised from 260mm to 280mm

-Gearbox flange of the crankcase reinforced at the holding fixture

Engine- and transmissionoil (1st.) coolers are integrated in one unit (watercooler). One benefit is, the tranmission oil temperature reaches optimum work temperature earlier due to the fact the oil circulation within the water oilcooler section. Placed in front of the water oilcooler, a 2nd air cooled oilcooler is located. Two fans -primary 600W, secondary 300W- are used for several purposes. Help the radiators to obtain enough cooling air, delayed cooldown after engine turn off etc. US spec RS6 carry two additional watercoolers behind each intercooler (hot country spec, RS6 plus).

Qisha

[Hy Octane]

Qisha.
I do have one question. You state that the RS6 transmission is supposed to have a lifecycle of 150,000 KM or about 100,000 miles yet to my knowledge, not one car has made it that far without either a failed torque converter or a whole transmission replacement. Whats causing the problems and does Audi really expect its RS6 owners to replace these expensive transmissions every time they fail even though they know it isnt lasting as long as it should??

[DHall1]

This is the second time I have noticed that

All US spec RS6 models got the aux coolers behind the intercoolers. Can someone confirm this to be true? If you dont have the summer package....do you have the aux coolers behind each intercooler?

Thanks for the info Qisha

[RS6-4dr911]

Do this a few times in a row... Does it seem like its slipping a bit when you reapply power? Do the revs jump up a few hundred rpm and then slide back?

After 3000 rpm the torque converter locks up and all is ok.. But why this slippage in that rev band. Its most annoying since this is the rev range I usually cruise in and it makes my passengers ask about it.. "Wow, an expensive car like this does that??"

See if yours does it.

No such slippage on mine - 44k miles, orig tranny

[Amulet-S6]

This is the second time I have noticed that

All US spec RS6 models got the aux coolers behind the intercoolers. Can someone confirm this to be true? If you dont have the summer package....do you have the aux coolers behind each intercooler?

Thanks for the info Qisha

DHall, I tried to look for you, but there's no line-of-sight from above to the area behind the intercoolers. I thought working in the mouth was tight quarters, but the audi engineers have crammed a lot of stuff into that engine bay. Even tried threading a mirror between the hoses, no luck.

Jim "the dentist"

[DHall1]

Jim,

Thanks for the effort. No kidding about the space. I wonder if you can see the aux coolant lines running over in that direction?

I have seen 2 people make mention that all US cars have this feature that was only included with warm weather package in other locations.

Should be a good fact for everyone to know. I have the warm weather package so no use looking under my hood.

Dave


DHall, I tried to look for you, but there's no line-of-sight from above to the area behind the intercoolers. I thought working in the mouth was tight quarters, but the audi engineers have crammed a lot of stuff into that engine bay. Even tried threading a mirror between the hoses, no luck.

Jim "the dentist"

[mmaturo]

here is a pic of my car with the engine out...i'm a cold weather car, but having seen mine twice this way i do not remember seeing anything behind or in front of my intercoolers...in this pic there appears to be nothing. the last time i saw it back in april i think i explicitly looked out of curiosity as warm weather cars are supposed to have it...and i am not one of those.

[DHall1]

From that pic we are looking at the front of the IC. The aux coolers are mounted behind the IC. I see some lines but its hard to tell from that angle.

Got any more pics


here is a pic of my car with the engine out...i'm a cold weather car, but having seen mine twice this way i do not remember seeing anything behind or in front of my intercoolers...in this pic there appears to be nothing. the last time i saw it back in april i think i explicitly looked out of curiosity as warm weather cars are supposed to have it...and i am not one of those.

[MaxRS6]

Qisha.
I do have one question. You state that the RS6 transmission is supposed to have a lifecycle of 150,000 KM or about 100,000 miles yet to my knowledge, not one car has made it that far without either a failed torque converter or a whole transmission replacement. Whats causing the problems and does Audi really expect its RS6 owners to replace these expensive transmissions every time they fail even though they know it isnt lasting as long as it should??

Knock on wood and I'm running APR. I would say that I run the car fairly aggressively around these parts with lots of hills and curves.

However; I know I'm overdue and expect it to happen at some point and will be in the market for a new tranny.

[mmaturo]

From that pic we are looking at the front of the IC. The aux coolers are mounted behind the IC. I see some lines but its hard to tell from that angle.

Got any more pics

Unless the line you see coming across the front of the bottom edge of the intercooler is not one of the feeds for the front one then maybe. There is also one near the top. I don't have a schematic of it handy to see where the lines are to the front IC. Otherwise there is no other lines running behind it.

Other pics do not show it unfortunately.

[Spidercat]

The OE TCU Software is made to assure a lifecycle run of approx. 150.000KM, combined with proper service of course. TCU tuning gives benefits in shift times an earlier converter lock-up, part of transfering higher input torque leading to a higher internal temperature and higher wear with reduced overall lifespan. This works well with OE specs. For tuned cars the only recommendable workflows are a transmission oil change every 15.000KM and 2nd to that a transmission oil filter change every 30.000KM. This does not prevent higher wear but copes with the reduced oil service life.


Qisha

Wow! Thank you so much for this information! I had my TCU "upgraded" to the MTM TCU last year, and had the trans oil/filter changed at the same time. I love it. Quicker shifts, no slipping problems (not that it had been slipping before). For $100, it's just about the best bang for the buck of any mod out there. However, based upon this info, I'll be sure to have yearly trans oil changes too (I drive somewhere around 15,000 km each year). So the trans oil filter would only need to be changed at every other trans oil change? That's good to know (cost me around $800 for this service at the dealer).
Thanks again for the info! :bow:

[mmaturo]

no more pics on my end that i can find but i think this link tells the story??

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18725

[Qisha]

Dear Friends,

hope this helps. :thumb:

Qisha

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/310/mahleaudirs61cutawaycmy.jpg (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/mahleaudirs61cutawaycmy.jpg/)
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8320/mahleaudirs61cmyk300dpi.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/mahleaudirs61cmyk300dpi.jpg/)

[Amulet-S6]

Qisha, I have 87k miles on my RS6. So I should anticipate a transmisssion replacement in my near future? I'm not excited to learn of that unexpected expense. But if that is the case, could the 6 spd auto transmission from a v10 C6-S6 be utilized instead of the stock rs6 unit? I prefer the shift pattern of the c6-s6 to our stock ZF units. Given that both cars have 450 hp, I wondered if this would be a viable alternative? Not sure what would need to happen with the tcu?

[Qisha]

Dear Friends,

it is not for certain that the transmission fails after a specific mileage. The wanted lifecycle determination is tend to be seen as "must achieve" factor rather than a deadline. If i take a look at the german used car market i find more RS6 with a mileage greather than 125.000KM, up to even 250.000KM. Without having proof nor checked the cars in detail i would expect not even half of them have had transmission failures. Personally i would recommend not to be shy with your car, drive it- push it all with a warmed up drivetrain. Avoid "trying to fool the shifting" in order to limit slipping. A well trained transmission TCU adapted to your expectations (driving style) is a pro. As mentioned a transmission oil change can only do good-, its not a "healing" but a "immunization". The darker the old transmission oil is, the higher the wear has proceeded. If so, "rinse" the transmission with fresh oil two to three times and change the oil filter at last.

This is about it, what can be advised on top of the regular service.

Qisha

PS: no other Transmission -except the one used- fits the RS6 drivetrain. Everything else is custom and takes a serious amount of money to achieve.

[V8weight]

here is a pic of my car with the engine out...i'm a cold weather car, but having seen mine twice this way i do not remember seeing anything behind or in front of my intercoolers...in this pic there appears to be nothing. the last time i saw it back in april i think i explicitly looked out of curiosity as warm weather cars are supposed to have it...and i am not one of those.
Yep, he has them. That's one of the aux coolant lines running across the front of the intercooler then looping around the rear.

[mmaturo]

Yep, he has them. That's one of the aux coolant lines running across the front of the intercooler then looping around the rear.

Good...kinda hoping i did as i don't exactly take it easy. Well i think thats proof we all have them here then as my car does not have the warm weather package otherwise.

[DHall1]

We learned something new.

All US spec RS6 models do indeed have the aux coolers behind each IC.




Yep, he has them. That's one of the aux coolant lines running across the front of the intercooler then looping around the rear.

[DHall1]

Qisha,

Thank you again for the info. The driveline picture you posted above is a thing of beauty. I have seen that image before but not in the full size that you have.

Do you have any other images of RS6 components or tech pieces?

I would really like to save them.

Hope things are well on your side. My RS6 is fantastic and were getting ready for another meet/drive in California next month. Hope to get 10 RS6 out on the run.

Dave


Dear Friends,

it is not for certain that the transmission fails after a specific mileage. The wanted lifecycle determination is tend to be seen as "must achieve" factor rather than a deadline. If i take a look at the german used car market i find more RS6 with a mileage greather than 125.000KM, up to even 250.000KM. Without having proof nor checked the cars in detail i would expect not even half of them have had transmission failures. Personally i would recommend not to be shy with your car, drive it- push it all with a warmed up drivetrain. Avoid "trying to fool the shifting" in order to limit slipping. A well trained transmission TCU adapted to your expectations (driving style) is a pro. As mentioned a transmission oil change can only do good-, its not a "healing" but a "immunization". The darker the old transmission oil is, the higher the wear has proceeded. If so, "rinse" the transmission with fresh oil two to three times and change the oil filter at last.

This is about it, what can be advised on top of the regular service.

Qisha

PS: no other Transmission -except the one used- fits the RS6 drivetrain. Everything else is custom and takes a serious amount of money to achieve.

[gjg]

This is the second time I have noticed that

All US spec RS6 models got the aux coolers behind the intercoolers. Can someone confirm this to be true? If you dont have the summer package....do you have the aux coolers behind each intercooler?

Thanks for the info Qisha

doc, search is the name (quote..:hihi:) - I'm just being smart ass:

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6798

the "summer" package is only on rs6+, never made it to US cars due to dollar drop. There is a comment from Nordschleife on the subject about half page down :cheers:

[Qisha]

Dear Friends,

for clearance about the "Hot weather country" spec (not to be confounded with the "Warm weather package PWX" that consists of a Solar sunroof 3FR and a power rear- and manual side window sunshades 3Y5):

all US and middle East OE delivered RS6 are equipped with the additional watercooler behind each Intercooler. This is a "must have feature" for environments with continued temperatures greater than 30° celcius- in order to handle the overall powertrain temperature. The same applies to the RS6 plus. Here to cope with the power upgrade- respective the higher topspeed.

Qisha

[Aronis]

Qisha.
I do have one question. You state that the RS6 transmission is supposed to have a lifecycle of 150,000 KM or about 100,000 miles yet to my knowledge, not one car has made it that far without either a failed torque converter or a whole transmission replacement. Whats causing the problems and does Audi really expect its RS6 owners to replace these expensive transmissions every time they fail even though they know it isnt lasting as long as it should??


HEY YOU'RE JINXING ME!

My car is at 90,000 miles, the only thing changed has been the DRC! And routine maintainence of course. ( can't spell today).

Mike
:snow::applause:

[Aronis]

Qisha,

I'm surprised that the routine service does not include that recommended transmission fluid change that often. If I recall it was part of the 75000 service!

Mike

[Hy Octane]

Qisha.
I have been made aware of a special expensive "Blue" transmission fluid that Audi can substitute in some of its transmissions which apparently is only used if certain small problems are present. Do you have any knowledge of this fluid and what it does? Is it a better performing fluid for our cars than the standard factory fill? Any info you can provide is as usual, appreciated.
Thanks!

[Qisha]

Dear Hy Octane,

the blue colored Transmission oil you are talking about is the ZF Lifeguardfluid 6 plus. As this oil has a lower adhesion factor than the regular Lifeguardfluid 6, the TCU software needs to be reflashed and the transmission adapted. The one used in the ZF 5HP26A is the Lifeguardfluid 5.

Qisha

[Qisha]

Qisha,

I'm surprised that the routine service does not include that recommended transmission fluid change that often. If I recall it was part of the 75000 service!

Mike

Dear Aronis,

the ZF recommended Tranmission Oil change interval is at 100.000KM, i.e. end of oil lifetime. Under regular OE spec conditions this is adequate. The VW Phaeton W12 is equipped with the same Transmission as the RS6 but does not carry the extra cooling option. Therefore the Transmission oil change interval is shortend to every 30.000KM. Heat is one of the mayor problems concerning a Transmission fail and/or higher wear due to the fact the oil loses its primary function with higher temperatures, its coefficient of friction.

In short terms, all service intervals are fine as long as the car is OE.

Everything else is just prevention on a ultra level and/or for tuned cars.

Qisha

[vangelis]

Dear Friends,

for clearance about the "Hot weather country" spec (not to be confounded with the "Warm weather package PWX" that consists of a Solar sunroof 3FR and a power rear- and manual side window sunshades 3Y5):

all US and middle East OE delivered RS6 are equipped with the additional watercooler behind each Intercooler. This is a "must have feature" for environments with continued temperatures greater than 30° celcius- in order to handle the overall powertrain temperature. The same applies to the RS6 plus. Here to cope with the power upgrade- respective the higher topspeed.

Qisha

Hi Qisha,

I have a question please, recently i had an accident with my car and it is laying with insurance to fix it, I saw my car today in the garage while they repairing it,, It is a middle east version (United Arab of Emirates sepcs which I believe the most high temp country 50+c sometimes),,but I don't think its equipped with any additional watercooler behind each Intercooler,, I didn't see any additional watercoolers but only 1 IC each side. can you please provide me any photo that showing that extra additional watercoolers or else I will try to get you photos of mine to confirm the same.

Thanks a lot

[V8weight]

Vangelis,
Here, check out one of my old threads, I snapped pictures of them while I had my ca apart.
http://rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18418&highlight=boost+leak

[vangelis]

Vangelis,
Here, check out one of my old threads, I snapped pictures of them while I had my ca apart.
http://rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18418&highlight=boost+leak


Thanks a lott V8weight, I thought that will be a two coolers/ radiators but it seems they interegated together as a one piece, so I need to double check about the second small input for the water whether is there or not. I will check this next time I go there to confirm. Thanks again V8weight.

[snoopra]

They just look integrated due to being well designed:)

[hahnmgh63]

Keep in mind that the picture posted by Qisha is of an RS6 without the hot Wx/North American cooling radiators.

[mmaturo]

Thanks a lott V8weight, I thought that will be a two coolers/ radiators but it seems they interegated together as a one piece, so I need to double check about the second small input for the water whether is there or not. I will check this next time I go there to confirm. Thanks again V8weight.

if you look at the pic i posted you will see the extra lines running to the second unit behind the IC both at the lower front and top of the unit. they are sandwiched but quisha's pic just shows the IC.