New and improved DRC Shocks installed in my RS6...

[Avus-RS6]

Rear end sits 4 fingers above the tire... this does not seem normal! Has anyone else had this issue? Will it settle down? I'm told to call the doc if its not down in 4 hours... ;) Seriously though, it looks lame, though it seemed to drive fine on the way home from the shop.

Advice please...

Thx,

Jason

[DHall1]

Crappy repair.

Search is your friend.

I bet 10 dollars that the dealer did not have the new special tool.

Call Audi and take the car back.

[Avus-RS6]

Oh yeah, it's going back... looks like an Audi mated with a 70's muscle car, not cool!

[DHall1]

Dealer had no idea what they were doing. None, zero, failed.

There is air in the lines and I bet the dealer did not use the new tool.

Please search and look at what the new tool looks like. Talk to the service and call the Audi customer assist line to ensure the dealer staff get the needed education. Clearly your local staff have no clue.




Oh yeah, it's going back... looks like an Audi mated with a 70's muscle car, not cool!

[RS6-4dr911]

No dude, put some gnarly Cragar SS's on it, some Wide O Oval Firestone drag slicks, some traction bars and a NASCAR sticker, maybe even a big 43 on the side. Awesome.

[DALLAS_RS6]

I have the same problem even though I have the MTM spring perches ( 15mm lowering). I talked to the dealer and they said they used the new tool and my suspension should settle. It's been 2 months! Still looks like a 4X4!:(

[R1]

I have the same problem even though I have the MTM spring perches ( 15mm lowering). I talked to the dealer and they said they used the new tool and my suspension should settle. It's been 2 months! Still looks like a 4X4!:(


how is the performance? is it better before or had deteriorated? thanks

[DHall1]

The car will not settle. Never ever in a hundred years.

Bad repair call Audi customer service and talk to the RS6 department.

If you search there are several threads with pics of poor repairs with jacked up rears.




I have the same problem even though I have the MTM spring perches ( 15mm lowering). I talked to the dealer and they said they used the new tool and my suspension should settle. It's been 2 months! Still looks like a 4X4!:(

[DALLAS_RS6]

how is the performance? is it better before or had deteriorated? thanks

It fells much better considering three out of four of my "struts" were blown. But I don't think it handles like it should. It does not have the stiff ride I expected. For most this would be a good thing but I expect more of a performance feel than a Cadillac feel.

[DHall1]

Can you post a pic?

Have you ever driven a E55? If so, your RS6 should be stiffer and run circles around the E55 03-09 versions. Handling wise.


It fells much better considering three out of four of my "struts" were blown. But I don't think it handles like it should. It does not have the stiff ride I expected. For most this would be a good thing but I expect more of a performance feel than a Cadillac feel.

[DALLAS_RS6]

here are some pictures of the car as it sits today. This is with the MTM 15mm lowering spring perches. I have not driven an E55.

[ben916]

No dude, put some gnarly Cragar SS's on it, some Wide O Oval Firestone drag slicks, some traction bars and a NASCAR sticker, maybe even a big 43 on the side. Awesome.

don't forget a greasy mullet and a wife beater t-shirt and an 8-track of Alabama (wait, they are pretty good) or 'Skynerd (sic)

offended? That might just be the point... :)

[ben916]

here are some pictures of the car as it sits today. This is with the MTM 15mm lowering spring perches. I have not driven an E55.

Is that the MTM RS6 from Florida?

It LOOKS exactly the same as a member(name escapes me) that had that MTM RS6 and a delicious stable of CGT and some other tasty bits....

[DALLAS_RS6]

Yes, it is the same MTM RS6 from Florida. I bought it from there and drove it back....... The original owner does have an awesome collection of cars.

[Fonzie Audi]

with all due respect, that would drive me CRAZY if my rs6 was sitting that high. i don't think i could drive it for 30 minutes like that.

please get it checked - as dave said - someone didn't do the job correctly.

[DHall1]

Your problem is different from the 1st poster.

Your car seems high all around.

Couple of thoughts. Can you take a measurement from the center of the hub to the top of the wheel well? On each corner?

Your car looks to be at stock height or just above. Could the dealer have put the spring perches back to the stock point?

I can run out and take my measurements be we have to measure from the center line of the rim/hub to the top of the wheel arch to have apples to apples do to tire differences.




It fells much better considering three out of four of my "struts" were blown. But I don't think it handles like it should. It does not have the stiff ride I expected. For most this would be a good thing but I expect more of a performance feel than a Cadillac feel.

[RS6-4dr911]

Just picked mine up. I hope y'all don't make me get the Cragars, mullet, etc. Mine looks about as high as Dallas's. However, I looked at some pic's when I first got it and although I don't have measurements, it appears to be the same as then, seconding Dave's opinion that his looks like stock height. This is after reading the various posts about ride height and telling the SA to watch out for it, that I didn't want to come pick up my SUV.

I measured mine as Dave suggested for all to compare (center of hub to bottom of fender lip):

Front Left 14 1/8"
Front Right 14 3/8"
Rear Left 14 3/8"
Rear Right 14 5/8"

Several possibilities for the car being higher on the right:

1) body panels are notoriously inexact.
2) they messed up.
3) the tech was from the UK and set it up to allow for my fat ass to drop the height 1/4" on the right side.

Pic's are attached for reference, keep your snide remarks about the curb rash to yourselves, was like that when I bought it (well, mostly).

As for the results, ride is radically smoother, harshness completely gone. Haven't really put the handling to the test but a brief u-turn felt pretty flat.

[DuckWingDuck]

ya, once you get the new system in, give it some time and let it settle.....

[SAF]

Bob, you and I went to the same parking school. ;)

[RS6-4dr911]

Not a surprise I guess that a SA misspoke, but there are NO central valves on my replacement parts list. Parts listed:

2EA 4F0-412-137 BOOT
2EA 4B0-52-137-C BOOT
1EA 4B3-513-032-B GASSHOCKAB
1EA 4B3-513-031-P GASSHOCKAB
1EA 4B3-413-032-B SHOCKABSOR
1EA 4B3-413-032-R SHOCKABSOR
4EA N-101-064-02 NUT
2EA N-906-350-01 NUT
2EA N-021-198-4 NUT
4EA N-013-81-5 WASHER
1EA G-052-731-A2 HYDR. OIL
1EA G-052-731-A2 HYDR. OIL

Also had to replace rear shock absorber lines due to "internal valve leaks"
1EA 4B3-616-715 TUBE
1EA 4B3-616-716 TUBE
1EA G-052-731-A2 HYDR. OIL

all at no charge.

[SAF]

I measured mine as Dave suggested for all to compare (center of hub to bottom of fender lip):

Front Left 17.0
Front Right 17.25
Rear Left 17.25
Rear Right 17.5



I hope you mean 14" and not 17" from center of hub to lip of fender, or you got an Allroad!

Mine are 14" in the front and 14.75" in rear.

[RS6-4dr911]

Oops. Forgot to subtract 1/2 the center cap diameter (5.75" dia). Corrected now, thanks for catching the blunder.

[DALLAS_RS6]

Just measured the height of my car and it's roughly 14" in front and 14 1/2" in the rear. So I guess they did not put my MTM spring perches back on. I will be making a phone call tomorrow. Thanks for the measurements guys.

[mmaturo]

Not a surprise I guess that a SA misspoke, but there are NO central valves on my replacement parts list. Parts listed:

2EA 4F0-412-137 BOOT
2EA 4B0-52-137-C BOOT
1EA 4B3-513-032-B GASSHOCKAB
1EA 4B3-513-031-P GASSHOCKAB
1EA 4B3-413-032-B SHOCKABSOR
1EA 4B3-413-032-R SHOCKABSOR
4EA N-101-064-02 NUT
2EA N-906-350-01 NUT
2EA N-021-198-4 NUT
4EA N-013-81-5 WASHER
1EA G-052-731-A2 HYDR. OIL
1EA G-052-731-A2 HYDR. OIL

Also had to replace rear shock absorber lines due to "internal valve leaks"
1EA 4B3-616-715 TUBE
1EA 4B3-616-716 TUBE
1EA G-052-731-A2 HYDR. OIL

all at no charge.

asked about that today myself, they do not replace the central valves as the new tool removes the need for that. Wish i had seen these measurements sooner as i just measured mine from the fender edge to the edge of the rim of the wheel. Dropped it off today so we will see if mine comes back different. 4" front, 4 1/2" rear to edge of my 19" 5 spoke OEM wheels.

[Avus-RS6]

So I took my RS6 back and I'm back in a loaner. They've got some regional guy coming to look at my car Friday and hopefully find a solution to the problem. I know one thing, I'm not going to pick it up until it's fixed. Apparently the rear is supposed to be 10mm higher than the front (per one of the service advisors) Mine is 30mm higher in the rear... doh! My car looked and actually drove great before I took it in for the DRC recall replacement. Due to this hassle, I wish I would have never taken it it, but we all know what they say about hindsight...

[cornishmoocher]

This is happening a lot over here, but audi bieng what they are are trying to fob people off. IT WILL NOT SETTLE DOWN..........ITS A FALLACY!
How they can let it leave the shop like it is beyond me. Thank God for Grizz.

[SAF]

Does anyone know what the stock height measurements should be? I have not really noticed a change in height with any of the four DRC jobs I've had over the last couple of years, including this "service action" job. I'm pretty sure it has always sat as it sits now.

One thing I learned while looking up some info with my tech, was that this "action" does have a final date on the offer. I believe it is available for only 18 months from this month. After that, any RS6 that is brought in to a dealership will not generate the flag to inform the owner about the offer, and the window will be closed.

[topcat_92]

When I had my struts replaced a couple months, they came back 1/2" higher in the rear. I took it back for a week or two and they couldn't find a cause. Some of their other replacements had similar results. The regional guy looked at my car and said that it was within spec, if I remember correctly. I said BS, but have yet to see anything further.

The height difference isn't as noticable as of late. Not sure if its because I've become used to it, or if it is actually stabilizing front to rear. I'll check tonight to see what if they're still 1/2" apart or getting closer.

[terrytcl]

mark,

which chicago dealer did you drop off your car at?

i got my letter and am looking for a dealership to drop off the car to.

thanks!

[mmaturo]

mark,

which chicago dealer did you drop off your car at?

i got my letter and am looking for a dealership to drop off the car to.

thanks!

Its at Continental...I'll let you know if i'm happy with it though, I have been VERY frustrated with their techs and their abilities to figure anything out lately (car is also there for 3rd run at the exact same problem in other parts of the front suspension). Granted its not an easy problem but they keep handing it back to me after three week stints after giving up on it.

I'm the 3rd or 4th one they have done so we will see. I dropped it off yesterday, no word yet today on whats up with it.

[hahnmgh63]

You mean for 6 year old cars they don't even bother to change the upper shock mounts? You can't tell me the rubber in those mounts hasn't gotten soft/weak after all of these years regardless of mileage, especially under the heavy weight of an RS6 sitting on them.

[peiserg]

Just picked mine up. I hope y'all don't make me get the Cragars, mullet, etc. Mine looks about as high as Dallas's. However, I looked at some pic's when I first got it and although I don't have measurements, it appears to be the same as then, seconding Dave's opinion that his looks like stock height. This is after reading the various posts about ride height and telling the SA to watch out for it, that I didn't want to come pick up my SUV.

I measured mine as Dave suggested for all to compare (center of hub to bottom of fender lip):

Front Left 14 1/8"
Front Right 14 3/8"
Rear Left 14 3/8"
Rear Right 14 5/8"

Several possibilities for the car being higher on the right:

1) body panels are notoriously inexact.
2) they messed up.
3) the tech was from the UK and set it up to allow for my fat ass to drop the height 1/4" on the right side.

Pic's are attached for reference, keep your snide remarks about the curb rash to yourselves, was like that when I bought it (well, mostly).

As for the results, ride is radically smoother, harshness completely gone. Haven't really put the handling to the test but a brief u-turn felt pretty flat.


I can't tell from your message if you are unsatisfied with the 1/4" height difference. is it even noticeable? I wouldn't think so... but then i haven't measured mine. Could it be from extra weight on the left from the driver's weight?

[RS6-4dr911]

I can't tell from your message if you are unsatisfied with the 1/4" height difference. is it even noticeable? I wouldn't think so... but then i haven't measured mine. Could it be from extra weight on the left from the driver's weight?


Not unsatisfied, just posting for reference. Notice the 1/4" is higher on the right side, so when I sit my fat ass down oin the left side the 1/4" goes to 1/4"++++. That's why the joke about the UK tech.

It's not visually noticeable at all, only with a tape measure, and at least the front to rear rake is the same from side to side (1/4").

Car, as mentioned, looks from photos to be exactly the same as when I bought the car 30 months ago, but no measurements to verify.

Put the handling to a better test today (had to go BACK to the dealer for them to fix 2 fault codes that were the direct result of imperfect wrenching, but no biggies). Car handles extremely well at high speeds over the bumps and swells you find on government produced public toll road (yeah, I want these guys managing my health care - now spoiled by 2 weeks on the table flat Autobahns). Very composed, no bouncing, lots of absorption of the bumps, very flat in corners at all speeds. Lovin' it. Sorry Mickey D's.

In e-mailing another local owner, I began to wonder if the softer , more compliant ride that most have noticed was a result of softening the shocks. This makes sense to me as doing so would lower the "spike" pressure within the shock when you hit a bump, possibly extending the life of the seals. Anyone want to argue?

[DHall1]

Yep, your sitting at stock level.

What do these MTM perches look like? I dont understand how they would lower the car?


Just measured the height of my car and it's roughly 14" in front and 14 1/2" in the rear. So I guess they did not put my MTM spring perches back on. I will be making a phone call tomorrow. Thanks for the measurements guys.

[DHall1]

Topcat,

The stock spec has the rear "higher" than the front.

I say higher by the measurement from the center hub to the top of the wheel arch.

Did you take measurements as above? What are yours?


When I had my struts replaced a couple months, they came back 1/2" higher in the rear. I took it back for a week or two and they couldn't find a cause. Some of their other replacements had similar results. The regional guy looked at my car and said that it was within spec, if I remember correctly. I said BS, but have yet to see anything further.

The height difference isn't as noticable as of late. Not sure if its because I've become used to it, or if it is actually stabilizing front to rear. I'll check tonight to see what if they're still 1/2" apart or getting closer.

[DHall1]

did you take the measurements as Dallas did?

Yes, the rear will be just a tick higher than the front.

Where is yours 30mm higher?


So I took my RS6 back and I'm back in a loaner. They've got some regional guy coming to look at my car Friday and hopefully find a solution to the problem. I know one thing, I'm not going to pick it up until it's fixed. Apparently the rear is supposed to be 10mm higher than the front (per one of the service advisors) Mine is 30mm higher in the rear... doh! My car looked and actually drove great before I took it in for the DRC recall replacement. Due to this hassle, I wish I would have never taken it it, but we all know what they say about hindsight...

[DHall1]

Mine are

14 1/8 front
14 1/2 rear

Even from side to side.

Mine has been done for a couple months. Still perfect ride and handling.

Even on the crappy roads we pay for. :hahahehe: At least some free stimulus money could fix some pot holes. And yes, if HCR passes. I quit.

Doh.




Just picked mine up. I hope y'all don't make me get the Cragars, mullet, etc. Mine looks about as high as Dallas's. However, I looked at some pic's when I first got it and although I don't have measurements, it appears to be the same as then, seconding Dave's opinion that his looks like stock height. This is after reading the various posts about ride height and telling the SA to watch out for it, that I didn't want to come pick up my SUV.

I measured mine as Dave suggested for all to compare (center of hub to bottom of fender lip):

Front Left 14 1/8"
Front Right 14 3/8"
Rear Left 14 3/8"
Rear Right 14 5/8"

Several possibilities for the car being higher on the right:

1) body panels are notoriously inexact.
2) they messed up.
3) the tech was from the UK and set it up to allow for my fat ass to drop the height 1/4" on the right side.

Pic's are attached for reference, keep your snide remarks about the curb rash to yourselves, was like that when I bought it (well, mostly).

As for the results, ride is radically smoother, harshness completely gone. Haven't really put the handling to the test but a brief u-turn felt pretty flat.

[DALLAS_RS6]

Yep, your sitting at stock level.

What do these MTM perches look like? I dont understand how they would lower the car?

Well I looked on line and couldn't find much on them. I did find that Hoppen motorsports RS6 shows them on the cars specs ( http://www.hoppenmotorsport.com/MTM_JHM_07_25.htm ) so I know they exist. I will be removing the wheels tomorrow and getting some pics and seeing if I see a MTM logo or something. According Hoppens website site they are supposed to lower the car and provide better handling(?).

[DHall1]

I have a theory. :cool2: Dont I always. :-)

The MTM perches were on your old struts housings. And guess what? Those housings were not reused. Guess what? They are in the trash.

Thus the reason for your car at stock height.

Hurry and call the dealer to find your old struts.


Well I looked on line and couldn't find much on them. I did find that Hoppen motorsports RS6 shows them on the cars specs ( http://www.hoppenmotorsport.com/MTM_JHM_07_25.htm ) so I know they exist. I will be removing the wheels tomorrow and getting some pics and seeing if I see a MTM logo or something. According Hoppens website site they are supposed to lower the car and provide better handling(?).

[Avus-RS6]

did you take the measurements as Dallas did?

Yes, the rear will be just a tick higher than the front.

Where is yours 30mm higher?


I didn't measure it, the dealership did. I'm glad they agree with me that the car is not sitting right and they seem to be looking for a fix. Until it is fixed, I get to put miles on a loaner, I'm not too upset about that.

[Aronis]

Well well. Isn't this all interesting. I'm supposed to take mine n Monday for the redo DRC.

Does not appear to be an improvement, not at least until each tech has done a few to "learn" how to replace the system. Not exactly inspiring.

My car handles "ok" but not like factory spec. I'd have a cow if I got the car back and the ride ended up even softer than it is now.

Those with the "new" DRC, can you bounce the car by pushing on the fender??

Mike

[hahnmgh63]

I picked mine up yesterday and the ride is firmer than before but definitely sits higher in the rear. I'm definitley going to install the KW's. Mine is 15" at the rear from the center of the wheel hub and an even 14" at the front. If I could have the current ride at a lower ride height I would take it.

[SAF]

Those with the "new" DRC, can you bounce the car by pushing on the fender??

Mike

Not at all. Mine rides like a truck, and that's a good thing.

[DHall1]

Mike,

I know you have been around the block on this deal more than once.

I can only say my car was never touched till about 28k this spring. Up to that point it was perfect and never touched. When it started to leak I noticed it right away. Now after the repair its right back to the stock spec and has been perfect for several months.

Keys to a good repair. The new special tool and a tech that will follow directions. Its that simple. IMHO without the special tool its a crap shoot. The tech that did mine was the same tech that did another list member in Scottsdale. The dealer is only letting 1 tech perform DRC work. A good move.

Good luck, take measurements before and after.

I can check the bounce for you but that is so subjective. Front to rear is quite different.



Well well. Isn't this all interesting. I'm supposed to take mine n Monday for the redo DRC.

Does not appear to be an improvement, not at least until each tech has done a few to "learn" how to replace the system. Not exactly inspiring.

My car handles "ok" but not like factory spec. I'd have a cow if I got the car back and the ride ended up even softer than it is now.

Those with the "new" DRC, can you bounce the car by pushing on the fender??

Mike

[JCT2033]

Mike,

Contact AoA's advocate team and ask to speak to the area rep. It seems to me the dealer does not know what to do with the DRC.

[AudiRS4ever]

I picked mine up yesterday and the ride is firmer than before but definitely sits higher in the rear. I'm definitley going to install the KW's. Mine is 15" at the rear from the center of the wheel hub and an even 14" at the front. If I could have the current ride at a lower ride height I would take it.


Mine sits higher in the rear too after the recall. Here's my question. Has anyone had that much luck with just installing H&R sport springs? I was thinking about changing over to PSS9's, but then thought I would like to keep the DRC suspension since it was just installed last week. All I am looking for is a lower ride height and I know the H&R springs would do that.
I do remember though that I put them on my B6 S4 when I first purchased it back in 04 and the ride was extremely bouncy. I ended up doing a coil-over about a month later. I don't want to waste the money or the time on just springs if it's going to ride like crap. Can anyone chime in on ride quality with just springs? Thanks!

[DHall1]

What are your measurements fr and rear?

IMHO your only option is to stick with the DRC or go over to KW's. The PSS9s ride height is just too low for a daily driven RS6. Look up V8Weight's past posts and you will see his KW settings and right height. Perfect install.


Mine sits higher in the rear too after the recall. Here's my question. Has anyone had that much luck with just installing H&R sport springs? I was thinking about changing over to PSS9's, but then thought I would like to keep the DRC suspension since it was just installed last week. All I am looking for is a lower ride height and I know the H&R springs would do that.
I do remember though that I put them on my B6 S4 when I first purchased it back in 04 and the ride was extremely bouncy. I ended up doing a coil-over about a month later. I don't want to waste the money or the time on just springs if it's going to ride like crap. Can anyone chime in on ride quality with just springs? Thanks!

[AudiRS4ever]

What are your measurements fr and rear?

IMHO your only option is to stick with the DRC or go over to KW's. The PSS9s ride height is just too low for a daily driven RS6. Look up V8Weight's past posts and you will see his KW settings and right height. Perfect install.

This is the post I made on Quattro World:
"These are taken from the highest point of the fender to the top of the actual rim, not the tire as different brands of tires with different wear are going to skew the numbers. Also, the tires are brand new Pirelli P-Zero Rosso's. They have about 200 miles on them so the tread is as high as it can be for that tire. Probably a 2-3 mm difference between new and worn out.

Front = 4 1/4 to the rim.

Rear = 4 3/4 to the rim. "


The problem is I would really like to leave the factory suspension somewhat intact. That is why I am looking to maybe just put the H&R sport springs on. I would like someone who has actually had them on their car to chime in to tell me if the ride got bouncy when they did it. Otherwise I may end up with the KW's. The factory ride height now that it's back and higher in the rear is just not an option for me. I think it looks rediculous.

[DHall1]

It seems like you have stock suspension specs.

But really were all taking the measurements from the center of the hub to top of fender arch.

It looks like you have about a 1/2 more gap in the rear which is stock spec.

To each his/her own but he RS6 at stock height is just fine for me. When working properly a car with DRC is just a pleasure to drive. Here is a pic of my car at stock level next to a PSS9 car. Again your choice.

Just adding HR springs to the DRC shock is not a typical choice here. I dont think you will find anyone that has done it and or liked it.




This is the post I made on Quattro World:
"These are taken from the highest point of the fender to the top of the actual rim, not the tire as different brands of tires with different wear are going to skew the numbers. Also, the tires are brand new Pirelli P-Zero Rosso's. They have about 200 miles on them so the tread is as high as it can be for that tire. Probably a 2-3 mm difference between new and worn out.

Front = 4 1/4 to the rim.

Rear = 4 3/4 to the rim. "


The problem is I would really like to leave the factory suspension somewhat intact. That is why I am looking to maybe just put the H&R sport springs on. I would like someone who has actually had them on their car to chime in to tell me if the ride got bouncy when they did it. Otherwise I may end up with the KW's. The factory ride height now that it's back and higher in the rear is just not an option for me. I think it looks rediculous.

[AudiRS4ever]

It seems like you have stock suspension specs.

But really were all taking the measurements from the center of the hub to top of fender arch.

It looks like you have about a 1/2 more gap in the rear which is stock spec.

To each his/her own but he RS6 at stock height is just fine for me. When working properly a car with DRC is just a pleasure to drive. Here is a pic of my car at stock level next to a PSS9 car. Again your choice.

Just adding HR springs to the DRC shock is not a typical choice here. I dont think you will find anyone that has done it and or liked it.


HMMMMM...... The rearend of your car still looks lower than mine. I'm 99.9% positive that mine came back higher at all 4 corners, but it does drive fine. I am thinking after what you said about just springs I will look at KW and PSS9's. I know you said the KW's are the way to go so I'm going to look at those very carefully before I make my final decision. Thanks again.

[hahnmgh63]

I don't think they even make the PSS9's for the RS6 anymore, at least Bilstein has dropped them from the '09 catalog but there seems to be a lot of sets still on shelves. Many were hoping the PSS10's would come out with an RS6 fitment but to no avail.

[DHall1]

Take some pics of your car.

Also remeasure from the center of the rim/hub to the top of the fender lip.

Your may be alittle higher then mine.

Did the dealer use the new special tool to bleed air? Its a hand pump manual device that takes forever to manually operate. That is the only way to ensure all the air is bled.




HMMMMM...... The rearend of your car still looks lower than mine. I'm 99.9% positive that mine came back higher at all 4 corners, but it does drive fine. I am thinking after what you said about just springs I will look at KW and PSS9's. I know you said the KW's are the way to go so I'm going to look at those very carefully before I make my final decision. Thanks again.

[DHall1]

Another angle of the current right level

[AudiRS4ever]

Another angle of the current right level

Actually from that angle your car looks the exact same height as mine. Yes, they did use the new bleeder. I spoke with the technician that worked on it, as well as the Service Mgr. They're both great to me and the tech said it took well over an hour to bleed the system correctly.
Maybe I'm just going crazy and think that the car was lower than it actually was. I'll try to take a pic and remeasure some time this week. I won't have time today or tomorrow. Thanks for the picture though. It makes me feel much better to see that yours is about where mine is.

[DHall1]

My ride height came out just about the same. Pre and post.


Actually from that angle your car looks the exact same height as mine. Yes, they did use the new bleeder. I spoke with the technician that worked on it, as well as the Service Mgr. They're both great to me and the tech said it took well over an hour to bleed the system correctly.
Maybe I'm just going crazy and think that the car was lower than it actually was. I'll try to take a pic and remeasure some time this week. I won't have time today or tomorrow. Thanks for the picture though. It makes me feel much better to see that yours is about where mine is.

[Avus-RS6]

I picked mine up yesterday and the ride is firmer than before but definitely sits higher in the rear. I'm definitley going to install the KW's. Mine is 15" at the rear from the center of the wheel hub and an even 14" at the front. If I could have the current ride at a lower ride height I would take it.

What dealership did you go to?

Jason

[hahnmgh63]

I live south of Tacoma but didn't trust Larson to do the work so I took it up to Seattle to University as I knew someone else on the list already had their car done there. They told me it would sit 1/2" higher in the rear but it is a full 1 1/8" higher in the rear. I spoke with them this morning and they said there wasn't anything they could do, and there was supposedly an Audi USA regional tech there when they did my car to make sure it was done right. I told them I was very dissapointed in the height but the firmness was better but overall a failing grade. I have a new set of KW's that I think I'm going to start an install on this weekend. I have mentioned on the list before that I am shocked that Audi doesn't include new strut/shock mounts with the update as after 6 years of age the rubber has to be getting softer and deteriorating no matter what the mileage. I do have new mounts at home purchased to go with the KW's.

[DHall1]

What are your center hub/rim to top of wheel arch measurements? Nevermind

Yours is 1 1/8" higher in the rear? Edit: Noticed you posted that as 15 rear and 14 front.

Did I read spec as 10mm higher in the rear? Mine is almost exactly 10mm higher in the rear.

Pics?

But, did University use the new special tool or install new control valves?


I live south of Tacoma but didn't trust Larson to do the work so I took it up to Seattle to University as I knew someone else on the list already had their car done there. They told me it would sit 1/2" higher in the rear but it is a full 1 1/8" higher in the rear. I spoke with them this morning and they said there wasn't anything they could do, and there was supposedly an Audi USA regional tech there when they did my car to make sure it was done right. I told them I was very dissapointed in the height but the firmness was better but overall a failing grade. I have a new set of KW's that I think I'm going to start an install on this weekend. I have mentioned on the list before that I am shocked that Audi doesn't include new strut/shock mounts with the update as after 6 years of age the rubber has to be getting softer and deteriorating no matter what the mileage. I do have new mounts at home purchased to go with the KW's.

[Avus-RS6]

What are your center hub/rim to top of wheel arch measurements? Nevermind

Yours is 1 1/8" higher in the rear? Edit: Noticed you posted that as 15 rear and 14 front.

Did I read spec as 10mm higher in the rear? Mine is almost exactly 10mm higher in the rear.

Pics?

But, did University use the new special tool or install new control valves?

Yeah, they told me 10mm was the spec for how much higher the rear should be than the front. University did my install too and when I asked, they said they used the new special tool, I don't know about new control valves.

Jason

[GEN XER]

My car sits about the same as Dave's (D Hall). I got it done at the Richmond VA dealership back in June. Like someone else said it took over an hour to bleed the system properly with the hand held pump. My car sits higher than it did in the back but I would imagine it would if the old shocks had leaked a good portion of the oil out. The ride is 100% better and I can hit the many potholes of VA without any pucker factor. Unfortunately it is awsome in curves at near 70mph and thats how I got my reckless ticket. I came of the highway loop at 69mph but the speed limit was 45mph and smokey was sitting at the end of the loop slightly downhill just waiting. LOL. I think I got it beat though, its amazing what a set of 255/55-18 will do to the calibration. It makes the speedo of 7pmh. That means when I was thinking I was doing 62mph, I was actually doing 69mph. Now I can put the 19's back on. We will see tomorrow if my lawyer can work it out for me. BTW Dave lets see a pic of that pool that gave you so many problems. :-))).

[DHall1]

Hahah,

The pool is awesome. I will take some pics

As for DRC. The key that has been said over and over. The special tool is a manual process and takes an hour or more of pumping by hand all the air out of and pressure into the lines.

Double, triple check that the dealer knows how to use this tool.



My car sits about the same as Dave's (D Hall). I got it done at the Richmond VA dealership back in June. Like someone else said it took over an hour to bleed the system properly with the hand held pump. My car sits higher than it did in the back but I would imagine it would if the old shocks had leaked a good portion of the oil out. The ride is 100% better and I can hit the many potholes of VA without any pucker factor. Unfortunately it is awsome in curves at near 70mph and thats how I got my reckless ticket. I came of the highway loop at 69mph but the speed limit was 45mph and smokey was sitting at the end of the loop slightly downhill just waiting. LOL. I think I got it beat though, its amazing what a set of 255/55-18 will do to the calibration. It makes the speedo of 7pmh. That means when I was thinking I was doing 62mph, I was actually doing 69mph. Now I can put the 19's back on. We will see tomorrow if my lawyer can work it out for me. BTW Dave lets see a pic of that pool that gave you so many problems. :-))).

[hahnmgh63]

Pics of my abortion posted in this thread.
http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19114
No control valves on the parts list, same parts as listed by everyone else being replaced, and my pet peeve, no new upper strut/shock mounts. I have a new set of those to go with my KW's as I would have like the car about 1" lower than stock anyways, not 1" higher. I've seen a couple of cars in Europe and they look slightly lower than our N.A. models, Euro cars are jacked up slightly here for bumper height/headlight requirements, was ours too?

[terrytcl]

Its at Continental...I'll let you know if i'm happy with it though, I have been VERY frustrated with their techs and their abilities to figure anything out lately (car is also there for 3rd run at the exact same problem in other parts of the front suspension). Granted its not an easy problem but they keep handing it back to me after three week stints after giving up on it.

I'm the 3rd or 4th one they have done so we will see. I dropped it off yesterday, no word yet today on whats up with it.


any updates?

:)

[mmaturo]

any updates?

:)


Yup, DRC is fixed, picked it up this evening...all is good as i posted on the other links on the subject...feels the same as my still good last 6 month old DRC fix and ride height is the same essentially. About 1/16" to 1/8" higher in the rear but same in the front as pre fix. So i think you can feel good about them fixing the DRC.

They can't seem to figure out my pop but not surprised as they really have replaced now EVERYthing else...links, stabilizer bar, upper and lower control arms, checked the steering mounts, and i'm pretty sure everything else. They want the axle replaced before they go further. I gave up and took the car back as they did put the car up for me to feel the axle. It has a very slight give compared to the passenger side but i still do not see how a spinning axle would cause singular pop over changes in grade. The axle is just fine (will last awhile) so i'm not paying to replace a decent axle for $700. So screw it. There is still a bushing somewhere doing it but all their techs can't figure it out. I am hoping putting in new shocks and tightening them down helped. A of A essentially told me the same that i'm stuck till axle is replaced. Whatever. Its not that annoying but is pathetic. In 4 years of ownership i have had only about 6 months with no clunking or popping. Crazy.

[DHall1]

But you drove a RS6 for 4 years.

You had alot of fun.

You could have drove a Civic.

:addict:


Yup, DRC is fixed, picked it up this evening...all is good as i posted on the other links on the subject...feels the same as my still good last 6 month old DRC fix and ride height is the same essentially. About 1/16" to 1/8" higher in the rear but same in the front as pre fix. So i think you can feel good about them fixing the DRC.

They can't seem to figure out my pop but not surprised as they really have replaced now EVERYthing else...links, stabilizer bar, upper and lower control arms, checked the steering mounts, and i'm pretty sure everything else. They want the axle replaced before they go further. I gave up and took the car back as they did put the car up for me to feel the axle. It has a very slight give compared to the passenger side but i still do not see how a spinning axle would cause singular pop over changes in grade. The axle is just fine (will last awhile) so i'm not paying to replace a decent axle for $700. So screw it. There is still a bushing somewhere doing it but all their techs can't figure it out. I am hoping putting in new shocks and tightening them down helped. A of A essentially told me the same that i'm stuck till axle is replaced. Whatever. Its not that annoying but is pathetic. In 4 years of ownership i have had only about 6 months with no clunking or popping. Crazy.

[DuckWingDuck]

hey now, don't hate on civics ;-)

[mmaturo]

But you drove a RS6 for 4 years.

You had alot of fun.

You could have drove a Civic.

:addict:

Lol...oh trust me I've enjoyed every commute in the sucker. If i didn't love it so much it would be deep 6 in Lake Michigan by now. Abused it a little on my way home with a few highway bursts and 2 or 3 full acceleration jumps off lights...just to make sure she's good.

Gave up the CRX after high school. Been Audi's ever since. 'Never follow' works for me.

[AudiRS4ever]

Hahah,

The pool is awesome. I will take some pics

As for DRC. The key that has been said over and over. The special tool is a manual process and takes an hour or more of pumping by hand all the air out of and pressure into the lines.

Double, triple check that the dealer knows how to use this tool.


Here are a couple of quick pics I snapped in the garage yesterday. I guess it's probably going to be KW's.

[AudiRS4ever]

Here's the front.

[DonS]

So, the definitive repair for raised ride height after DRC is back to the dealer for a more accurate bleed of the oil... right?

[DHall1]

1. Talk to dealer staff to ensure the tech working on your car has done the repair before.
2. Make sure the dealer has the latest special tool. "The tool with the manual pump that takes an hour of hand pumping to bleed and pressurize the system."
3. Tip the people well.
4. Buy goodies on the day you take your car in.

:-)

If the dealer has not used the manual pump. Ask them to get one or call Audi of America. I can give you the name of the guy that will make this all happen.


So, the definitive repair for raised ride height after DRC is back to the dealer for a more accurate bleed of the oil... right?

[hahnmgh63]

Sounds like my dealer has been told by Audi USA that they need to modify their procedure. Something to do with dropping the car down on the suspension before they do the preload, not when the car is jacked up in the air. Kind of makes sense that you would want the weight on the car when you set it up, just like when tighten bushings, you want them tightened in the loaded position, not unloaded. So back to the dealer with me and another on the list who will be picking his car up tonight from the dealer on his correction attempt.

[DonS]

My dealer has been pretty good. They anticipated the shocks would be bad (or needed the business) so they ordered the shocks and pump. I just wish they would have noticed the ride height before I showed up. With a little guidance, they'll get it right. It sounds like the definitive repair is now: preload, accurate bleed.

[DHall1]

Well that is some good news. They found a flaw in the process and can adjust and redo. Good luck


Sounds like my dealer has been told by Audi USA that they need to modify their procedure. Something to do with dropping the car down on the suspension before they do the preload, not when the car is jacked up in the air. Kind of makes sense that you would want the weight on the car when you set it up, just like when tighten bushings, you want them tightened in the loaded position, not unloaded. So back to the dealer with me and another on the list who will be picking his car up tonight from the dealer on his correction attempt.

[DHall1]

Bingo. Good luck.

A RS6 with a working DRC is a thing of beauty.




My dealer has been pretty good. They anticipated the shocks would be bad (or needed the business) so they ordered the shocks and pump. I just wish they would have noticed the ride height before I showed up. With a little guidance, they'll get it right. It sounds like the definitive repair is now: preload, accurate bleed.

[Avus-RS6]

Sounds like my dealer has been told by Audi USA that they need to modify their procedure. Something to do with dropping the car down on the suspension before they do the preload, not when the car is jacked up in the air. Kind of makes sense that you would want the weight on the car when you set it up, just like when tighten bushings, you want them tightened in the loaded position, not unloaded. So back to the dealer with me and another on the list who will be picking his car up tonight from the dealer on his correction attempt.

That was the trick, car looks much better!

I don't have even ground at my house to measure heights, but sitting on a slight slope (rear end downhill ever so slightly), driver rear is about 14" fender to center of hub, passenger rear is 14.25". Driver front actually measured a tad more... kindof pointless until I find level ground, but it definately looks much better! Handling is great too! I love my :addict: once again!

University Audi is now DRC capable.

[hahnmgh63]

Thanks for the post Jason, I'll give them a call tomorrow and see when they would like to fix my car again...

[AudiRS4ever]

Ok, just spoke with AOA about lowering the car on the ground to do the suspension. Let me back track just a little first. This morning I called the Service Mgr. at my dealership and told him about lowering the car on the ground to bleed the system. He and my tech pulled the bulletin and told me that it specifically says NOT to lower the car on the ground to bleed the system. He told me it mentioned this 3 times. He's a great guy and both he and my technician know what they are doing. He told me that he would do it if I wanted him to anyway, but obviously could not be responsible for any damage.
I then spoke to AOA and was informed they did not know anything about lowering the car on the ground to bleed the system. I told them about this thread, but the lady I spoke to told me that either my Service Mgr. or the Tech that works on my car would have to call tech line.
I called the service dept. and let the Service Mgr know that. I will let you guys know if I hear anything back. So far the car is scheduled to go back in next Wednesday to have the system re-bled.

[Hy Octane]

What makes this worrysome is the fact that the original idea behind the special tool that was designed to do these repairs was a built in fail safe system that would show either success if done right or fail if done wrong. It seems that this is not working as planned.

[mmaturo]

Well I can tell you what my service group did...I asked how they did mine (as it came out fine having just picked it up Tuesday), the tech said he did it by putting it up on their alignment rig. So yes mine had the suspension loaded rather than hanging in the air. Not on the ground exactly but same difference.

Continental Audi in Naperville, IL. Mine was the 4th they have done, with two more right behind mine...we should know soon how theirs went as they post here too.

[AudiRS4ever]

Well I can tell you what my service group did...I asked how they did mine (as it came out fine having just picked it up Tuesday), the tech said he did it by putting it up on their alignment rig. So yes mine had the suspension loaded rather than hanging in the air. Not on the ground exactly but same difference.

Continental Audi in Naperville, IL. Mine was the 4th they have done, with two more right behind mine...we should know soon how theirs went as they post here too.


I wrote the Service Mgr. at my dealership and he had some questions for you if you don't mind us asking. He is really trying to figure out what's going on with mine. Here's what he wrote and would like to know if you don't mind answering. Thanks!


Your guy with the car done on the alignment machine, I have questions, Was it jacked up with the alignment jacks, or was it actually setting on its tires on the ramps? Also, what were the finished results of his ride height? Did he actually measure it pre and post repair.

[mmaturo]

I wrote the Service Mgr. at my dealership and he had some questions for you if you don't mind us asking. He is really trying to figure out what's going on with mine. Here's what he wrote and would like to know if you don't mind answering. Thanks!


Your guy with the car done on the alignment machine, I have questions, Was it jacked up with the alignment jacks, or was it actually setting on its tires on the ramps? Also, what were the finished results of his ride height? Did he actually measure it pre and post repair.

Have him call Continental in Naperville, IL, 630.388.1000, ask for Robyn in service (she is one of their service writers and very familiar with this) and ask the question about the jacks, that i do not know. The tech at the dealer that did the work and whom i asked...his name is Jack. However Jack said he had the suspension loaded which tells me it was probably sitting on the wheels but I really have no idea.

I did measure pre and post. Fronts are the same and rears are very slightly higher at only 1/16" to 1/8" higher. I measured from the wheel arch to the edge of my 19" rim pre/post fix. It was 4" in the front, 4 1/2 in the back, now its 4 in the front and almost 4 5/8 in the back. My 'old' DRC was fully pressurized still as it was only a 6 month old fix, so real good example of what is probably the correct outcome.

[DuckWingDuck]

I understand that it's a problem that AoA wants to just deal with and get it over and done and not worth it to spend the money to bring in the techs to train but it's lame that AoA didn't push out a training video for the certified techs to watch as they're able to for other services

[hahnmgh63]

They (AOA) should know by now that this issue isn't going to just die, if this is the fix they came out with late last year or early this year in Europe then it has been a failure, no more reliable than the old. And the RS4 guys have had their DRC's failing just as commonly as ours? What does Audi think, maybe KYB just sold them a terrible bill of goods and maybe Audi has been trying with KYB or maybe they really haven't until this outcry of owners.

[hahnmgh63]

AudiRS4ever, have your tech call University Audi in Seattle at 206-510-4435 and talk to Jon Savo about the procedure for your car.

[AudiRS4ever]

AudiRS4ever, have your tech call University Audi in Seattle at 206-510-4435 and talk to Jon Savo about the procedure for your car.

I'll do it. Thanks! BTW, my name's Chris. I measured my car again and it only grew a little bit in the rear, but I still don't like the way it looks. Looking at your sig it looks like you have KW's, no?

[hahnmgh63]

I have the KW's but haven't installed them. I installed the Hotchkis bars but I was waiting to see if Audi did the DRC correctly so I would definitley know how a good DRC felt. I'm probably still going to do the KW's this winter either way.

[DonS]

Jon at University might get a call from my SA here in Madison, WI. I stopped by to talk with the SA and learned that they did the same DRC repair to another RS6 - they Allroad-ed it to! I can't believe they wouldn't be more careful after I reported the problem to them and made an appointment for my cars' second repair. There the other RS6 sat in the ready lot for the oblivious owner. Hoepfully the owner notices the ride height and complains like I did. These guys need a little help!

Does anyone have the Audi spec for ride height? My Bently says the Allroad is 402mm +/- 5mm which is 15 3/4 +/- 3/16"" from "between center of wheel and bottom edge of fender." They also show the A6 4.2 and S6 Avant to have a loaded height of 4.8" from the bottom for the fender behind the rear wheel to the road surface - which doesn't make sense. Maybe they mean from the center of the wheel to the bottom of the fender, but that would be really low - tire just below the fender.

My ride height averages 14.5" in front and 15" in the rear.

[DHall1]

Don,

Dont tell me yours is screwed up too. Arrrrrgh

What happened?

Have you called AoA? If you want the name and number of my guy at hq...lmk

dhall1 @ vzw.blackberry. net


Jon at University might get a call from my SA here in Madison, WI. I stopped by to talk with the SA and learned that they did the same DRC repair to another RS6 - they Allroad-ed it to! I can't believe they wouldn't be more careful after I reported the problem to them and made an appointment for my cars' second repair. There the other RS6 sat in the ready lot for the oblivious owner. Hoepfully the owner notices the ride height and complains like I did. These guys need a little help!

Does anyone have the Audi spec for ride height? My Bently says the Allroad is 402mm +/- 5mm which is 15 3/4 +/- 3/16"" from "between center of wheel and bottom edge of fender." They also show the A6 4.2 and S6 Avant to have a loaded height of 4.8" from the bottom for the fender behind the rear wheel to the road surface - which doesn't make sense. Maybe they mean from the center of the wheel to the bottom of the fender, but that would be really low - tire just below the fender.

My ride height averages 14.5" in front and 15" in the rear.

[DonS]

Yep Dave, my RS6 ride'n high. I noticed it as soon as I walked into the service bay. They threw the usual excuses at me so I appeased them by taking it home, but its going back on Monday. They don't have a plan other than to bring it in and work on it. I told them to ring up AoA as there must be a ton of calls as these repairs are going on across the US. It's like I'm talking to a puppy - they nod their head, but they don't do what I ask. And then they had the audacity to make the exact same mistake on another RS6 after I reported the problem to them and made an appointment to repair it - shame on them!

I'm consolidating a list of service reps that have completed and corrected the DRC repair from this forum to hand to my SA. Please forward the number of your contact. Thanks!!

[AudiRS4ever]

I have the KW's but haven't installed them. I installed the Hotchkis bars but I was waiting to see if Audi did the DRC correctly so I would definitley know how a good DRC felt. I'm probably still going to do the KW's this winter either way.


I may end up not doing anything with this stupid suspension. I am getting fed up with this. I am either going to do a coil-over suspension or just sell the car. I spoke with Bilstein yesterday and found out they do still have the PSS9's and they now have a different part number. They said the problem was the shock mounts were too weak and I am assuming that was what was causing the clunking on the car. I got the spring weights and while they seem very heavy (translation: extremely stiff) I know I can always order weaker ones if I find the ride too stiff. If I end up doing that hopefully I will calm down a little bit. Otherwise I'll be searching for a different car, possibly a different brand.
The thing that gets me is that the RS6 has never been right from day 1 with this stupid suspension. Audi has known it and actually decided to do something about it. But then they screw it up by giving it an off-road look. Here's what scares me the most about the dealers that are doing this. My dealer showed me the bulletin where it specifically says, "Do not bleed the system with the car on the ground." Now we're being told that the dealer should be bledding the system on the ground. So is this a guess by Audi Tech? What will the long-term effects be with the suspension if they are loaded when they are bled? Not that the DRC suspension has ever needed an excuse to fail. It does that all on its own. Just some questions and some venting right now. I'll make a decision in a couple of weeks about whether or not I'm going to sell it or just put KW's or PSS9's on it. Right now I'm too pissed off to make a rational decision.
The worst part is that I would probably got get another RS4, but I'm not about to go through the DRC nightmare again. This is just rediculous. :vgrumpy:

[DHall1]

I feel your pain. It does sound like you have Audi service staff willing to make an effort to solve this problem.

I went back and looked at your wheel pics again. Your rear looks too high. Can you measure from center hub to fender lip again?

Hang in there...the RS6 even with its quirks is the best car on the road in its class. Expect problems from time to time as its not a Lexus but instead a race bred sedan.


I may end up not doing anything with this stupid suspension. I am getting fed up with this. I am either going to do a coil-over suspension or just sell the car. I spoke with Bilstein yesterday and found out they do still have the PSS9's and they now have a different part number. They said the problem was the shock mounts were too weak and I am assuming that was what was causing the clunking on the car. I got the spring weights and while they seem very heavy (translation: extremely stiff) I know I can always order weaker ones if I find the ride too stiff. If I end up doing that hopefully I will calm down a little bit. Otherwise I'll be searching for a different car, possibly a different brand.
The thing that gets me is that the RS6 has never been right from day 1 with this stupid suspension. Audi has known it and actually decided to do something about it. But then they screw it up by giving it an off-road look. Here's what scares me the most about the dealers that are doing this. My dealer showed me the bulletin where it specifically says, "Do not bleed the system with the car on the ground." Now we're being told that the dealer should be bledding the system on the ground. So is this a guess by Audi Tech? What will the long-term effects be with the suspension if they are loaded when they are bled? Not that the DRC suspension has ever needed an excuse to fail. It does that all on its own. Just some questions and some venting right now. I'll make a decision in a couple of weeks about whether or not I'm going to sell it or just put KW's or PSS9's on it. Right now I'm too pissed off to make a rational decision.
The worst part is that I would probably got get another RS4, but I'm not about to go through the DRC nightmare again. This is just rediculous. :vgrumpy:

[AudiRS4ever]

I feel your pain. It does sound like you have Audi service staff willing to make an effort to solve this problem.

I went back and looked at your wheel pics again. Your rear looks too high. Can you measure from center hub to fender lip again?

Hang in there...the RS6 even with its quirks is the best car on the road in its class. Expect problems from time to time as its not a Lexus but instead a race bred sedan.

14 5/8 Pass-Side Rear
14 1/2 Driver's-Side Rear

I know what you're saying about the RS6 being a great car, but it seems like everytime I turn around I'm doing something to it. Anyway, the 14 5/8 does seem in keeping with what everyone else is writing in. I guess I just have to figure out what I'm going to do. Thanks again everyone for the help.

[mmaturo]

Yep Dave, my RS6 ride'n high. I noticed it as soon as I walked into the service bay. They threw the usual excuses at me so I appeased them by taking it home, but its going back on Monday. They don't have a plan other than to bring it in and work on it. I told them to ring up AoA as there must be a ton of calls as these repairs are going on across the US. It's like I'm talking to a puppy - they nod their head, but they don't do what I ask. And then they had the audacity to make the exact same mistake on another RS6 after I reported the problem to them and made an appointment to repair it - shame on them!

I'm consolidating a list of service reps that have completed and corrected the DRC repair from this forum to hand to my SA. Please forward the number of your contact. Thanks!!

As posted above... Continental in Naperville, IL, 630.388.1000, ask for Robyn in service (she is one of their service writers and very familiar with this). The tech doing the work is named Jack.

[audios]

got mine back today. had them replace all the bushings on the top arms going to shocks since they were torn, car was apart and of course they weren't covering.
first look the car looks high. i may measure but it's going back anyway.
there were so many rattles from the front end and a huge clunk from one side it was ridiculous. worse than before. pushing on the car it responds as expected but on the road not what i expect. washy and doesn't seem to dampen right. what kind of road test did they do? parked for the weekend. i'll deal with them on monday. :vgrumpy:

[DHall1]

Where did you take the car?

Did you follow the instructions to ensure they had the new special tool?

Sounds like a call to AoA is in order.



got mine back today. had them replace all the bushings on the top arms going to shocks since they were torn, car was apart and of course they weren't covering.
first look the car looks high. i may measure but it's going back anyway.
there were so many rattles from the front end and a huge clunk from one side it was ridiculous. worse than before. pushing on the car it responds as expected but on the road not what i expect. washy and doesn't seem to dampen right. what kind of road test did they do? parked for the weekend. i'll deal with them on monday. :vgrumpy:

[AudiRS4ever]

As posted above... Continental in Naperville, IL, 630.388.1000, ask for Robyn in service (she is one of their service writers and very familiar with this). The tech doing the work is named Jack.

Just thought I'd keep everyone in the loop. Spoke with Jack at Continental and Brian at University yesterday. First off, 2 of the nicest and most knowledgeable guys I have ever spoken with. Some things everybody needs to know. Neither dealer is charging these systems on the ground. Both of the tech's said Audi specifically says not to and they're not doing that. So my tech here did a great job of that part. Here's where my tech went wrong and I don't blame him one bit as this is not what he was told to do.
After the suspension is in and charged Brian and Jack are leaving all of the control arm bolts loose, or finger tight. Then the car is driven a couple of miles with everything loose so the suspension can settle while loaded. After it comes back, the car is put on the alignment rack where everything is torqued down with the suspension loaded. Guess what? Suspension looks fine and no problems.
We put mine on the alignment rack yesterday at my shop and loosened all of the bolts. First thing that happened was that my whole car shuttered when we untightened the bolt. The bushings were all bound up. That's the really good news. I didn't think I remembered my car ever driving so rough. I then drove the car for about 2 miles and brought it back. The first thing I can tell you is that now the car drives like a Cadillac in comparison to how it did drive. It's not nearly as bone-jarring. We torqued all of the bolts and remeasured. The rear came down from 14 5/8ths to 14 1/2 on the right side. So not much, but I don't think mine was nearly as high as some have reported.
Here's the bad news. I still can't stand the way it looks, but I think now I'm just making it up in my head that it sits too high. So with the ride actually good now instead of making me think there are shipping spacers in the car, and the fact that it did come down just a little bit I'm going to drive it some through the winter and next year decide if I'm going to keep it. If I do I'm going to most likely put KW's on it.
Just wanted to let you guys know what is really going on and tell you that both Continental and University are 2 great dealerships with phenomenal tech's.

[DHall1]

Your saying the rear control arm bolts were torqued before the wheels dropped back on the ground?

Thus the rear end being too high.

I dont know if that could cause some of the cars to be over 1/2 inch too high?

If so that is huge.

And yes, I agree its always a good idea to settle the suspension then torque control arm bolts.




Just thought I'd keep everyone in the loop. Spoke with Jack at Continental and Brian at University yesterday. First off, 2 of the nicest and most knowledgeable guys I have ever spoken with. Some things everybody needs to know. Neither dealer is charging these systems on the ground. Both of the tech's said Audi specifically says not to and they're not doing that. So my tech here did a great job of that part. Here's where my tech went wrong and I don't blame him one bit as this is not what he was told to do.
After the suspension is in and charged Brian and Jack are leaving all of the control arm bolts loose, or finger tight. Then the car is driven a couple of miles with everything loose so the suspension can settle while loaded. After it comes back, the car is put on the alignment rack where everything is torqued down with the suspension loaded. Guess what? Suspension looks fine and no problems.
We put mine on the alignment rack yesterday at my shop and loosened all of the bolts. First thing that happened was that my whole car shuttered when we untightened the bolt. The bushings were all bound up. That's the really good news. I didn't think I remembered my car ever driving so rough. I then drove the car for about 2 miles and brought it back. The first thing I can tell you is that now the car drives like a Cadillac in comparison to how it did drive. It's not nearly as bone-jarring. We torqued all of the bolts and remeasured. The rear came down from 14 5/8ths to 14 1/2 on the right side. So not much, but I don't think mine was nearly as high as some have reported.
Here's the bad news. I still can't stand the way it looks, but I think now I'm just making it up in my head that it sits too high. So with the ride actually good now instead of making me think there are shipping spacers in the car, and the fact that it did come down just a little bit I'm going to drive it some through the winter and next year decide if I'm going to keep it. If I do I'm going to most likely put KW's on it.
Just wanted to let you guys know what is really going on and tell you that both Continental and University are 2 great dealerships with phenomenal tech's.

[V8weight]

I never even thought of that. This could be as simple as the technician zapping the lower shock bolts in with an impact with a fully extended suspension. The shock bolts more so than the control arm bolts will definitely hold the car up. When I had my KW's installed, I wasn't happy with the ride height, so I pulled the car on our alignment rack to readjust them and loosened all the control arm and shock bolts and the car fell at least 1/2" right before my eyes.

[Hy Octane]

The suspension is supposed to be bone jarringly stiff.

[DHall1]

Not the point we are making here. We are talking about preloaded suspension bushings causing the rear of the car to be propped up like a torsion bar. In that case the ride would suck and the rear of the car would be too high.


The suspension is supposed to be bone jarringly stiff.

[DHall1]

I have 12x12x24 treated wood blocks that I put my cars tires up onto and work on suspension mounting points and such.

I think its about time to check my RS6 even if I dont see a problem.





I never even thought of that. This could be as simple as the technician zapping the lower shock bolts in with an impact with a fully extended suspension. The shock bolts more so than the control arm bolts will definitely hold the car up. When I had my KW's installed, I wasn't happy with the ride height, so I pulled the car on our alignment rack to readjust them and loosened all the control arm and shock bolts and the car fell at least 1/2" right before my eyes.

[AudiRS4ever]

I have 12x12x24 treated wood blocks that I put my cars tires up onto and work on suspension mounting points and such.

I think its about time to check my RS6 even if I dont see a problem.

Hall, would you do me a favor and take pictures of the rear wheel gap on your car? Also, maybe take a measurement for everyone on the board so they'll know where their cars are supposed to sit? Thanks!

[RS6-4dr911]

Search is your friend. See post 37. Mine's shown on 17, roughly the same. Several others posted as well that all seem to be converging on the same number.

[DHall1]

:thumb: ^^ what he said.

[audios]

Where did you take the car?

Did you follow the instructions to ensure they had the new special tool?

Sounds like a call to AoA is in order.

took it to 'fathers and sons' in west springfield ma. said they had the new tool and knew what they were doing but think they were refering to experience with old procedure and feeling like i was their first on the recall.
can you advise on who to contact?
would like to get this thing remedied so i can finally get it back on the road after it sitting all summer so i can decide whether i love it again or sell it and go back to something rwd which i'm getting an itch for! :hahahehe:

[ini]

The suspension is supposed to be bone jarringly stiff.
not after a new DRC install
:(

[DuckWingDuck]

not after a new DRC install
:(

Actually, the DRC is suppose to be very stiff... One of the ways to tell that it's defective is getting bounce in your ride.

[SAF]

not after a new DRC install
:(

Wrong. Stiff was the ride from the factory and it should be that way after a correct DRC install. If it rides like a Caddy, it is not done correctly.

[topcat_92]

I checked my RS before a family vacation last week, and still the difference between the front and back.

One the way down the road to vacation, I get a call out of the blue from my dealer that they may have figured-out how to correct the most of the difference. I am not sure if their fix is the loosening and tighening of bolts that was mentioned earlier in the posts, but I'll find out.

I take it in this Thursday.

[AudiRS4ever]

Wrong. Stiff was the ride from the factory and it should be that way after a correct DRC install. If it rides like a Caddy, it is not done correctly.


You need to read what I posted. "the car drives like a Cadillac in comparison to how it did drive." In comparison does not mean it drives like one. The whole rear end of my car was bouncing around, because it was not absorbing bumps at all, rather it was just going over them. The difference was that if I hit a quarter in the road I could tell you if it was heads or tales. Now I can only tell you that it was a quarter. It is still extremely stiff. Hope that clarifies things a little better. Also, read DHall's comments about what I said a few posts down. He hit it on the head.

[hahnmgh63]

Topcat, I'm taking mine in Thursday too. You are taking back to University right?

[SAF]

Sorry, I read this quote


The suspension is supposed to be bone jarringly stiff.

and he responded to that with this.


not after a new DRC install
:(

I second that that is not accurate, it is supposed to be stiff after new DRC. So stiff that running over your quarter leaves two dimes and a nickle on the road.

[AudiRS4ever]

So stiff that running over your quarter leaves two dimes and a nickle on the road.


Now that's funny. :lovl:

[DonS]

My car is done and it is lower, but still not at pre repair nor at Dave's measurements (I'm riding 1/2 high). Dealer is trying to find specification. They will continue to listen for updates from Audi that may improve my ride height situation.

As you all agree above, the control arms should not be tightened until the car is resting on its tires at normal load. See attachment from the Audi service manual. As stated perviously, an unpressurized DRC suspension should never be loaded (resting on its tires).

Lastly, I found no quarters, dimes or nickles anywhere near my car after running over a dollar bill.

Oh he**, one more thing. An S8 blasted out of the dealer lot trying to make the green traffic light a half-block away - it sounded amazing.:burnout:

[audios]

the rattle and knocking was so bad after the DRC repair i had it towed back to dealer today, ridiculous that they let it go. mine was their first recall but supposedly had their best guy on it that works on their high end models and had done many DRc repairs.

side note: mine appered to measure 14" front 14 1/2" rear.

we'll see what happens. giving them a chance before i call AoA. http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3402577&l=fc811ff8b9&id=698187779

[DHall1]

Don,

What are your measurements?

Where did you get this pdf?

Is that picture of the front or rear control arm?


My car is done and it is lower, but still not at pre repair nor at Dave's measurements (I'm riding 1/2 high). Dealer is trying to find specification. They will continue to listen for updates from Audi that may improve my ride height situation.

As you all agree above, the control arms should not be tightened until the car is resting on its tires at normal load. See attachment from the Audi service manual. As stated perviously, an unpressurized DRC suspension should never be loaded (resting on its tires).

Lastly, I found no quarters, dimes or nickles anywhere near my car after running over a dollar bill.

Oh he**, one more thing. An S8 blasted out of the dealer lot trying to make the green traffic light a half-block away - it sounded amazing.:burnout:

[DonS]

Mine were at 14.5" in front and 15" in the rear and now dropped a bit to 14 3/8" in front and 14 5/8" in the rear. I still don't know factory specs. I think I might buy some perches to lower the car - gotta do a search for details.

My SA gave the control arm instructions to me so I assumed it was from the service manual. He had a mit full of instructions that I asked for, but he wouldn't give to me. I told him those instructions would make life easier for dealers across the world if I posted them to educate owners. I don't think he understood the confusion we are faced with. When I walked in he was on the phone with Audi and I overhead him ask if there were issues being reported with ride height and DRC replacements. The SA relayed a no in realtime, but I didn't hear the actual response. It sounds like there may be poor communication at Audi USA.

I can't tell you if these instructions are the front or rear control arms. I can't find these instructions in my Audi Electronic Service Information software i bought on eBay. Maybe I'll print the entire DRC seciton to PDF and post it somewhere - a new thread labeled DRC truths. I'd like to include ride height if I can find it.

Did you notice where the control arm instuctions warn that the bushings will be stress and have a shortened life if the control arms are tightened while the car is raised? I know some on this forum have complained of fast suspension bushing wear - this could be why!

I'm getting more and more repect for these Audi wrenchers. These instrucitons are good but not great. Everything is hard to find in their manuals. So the mechanics probably work off of prior experience, but the technology changes so quickly that prior knowledge is wrong. Audi should go with a wizard software that linearly steps the mechaics through the process. I can imagine a visual and audible system (audio so they can keep their eyes on the tools\parts\hands.

[DHall1]

That is interesting. And how did the dealer effect any change at all on your car? Hmmm, its still too high in the front. The rear is just a tick too high. Most have been coming in right at 14.5. And your front is just a tick high when most have been coming in at 14 or just a tick higher.

Drive it for a week and keep checking.

The wear from our front bushings has been well noted. Mostly, if you have car with worn out DRC it allowed too much wheel travel and thus beat up these bushings.

Also, a poor install of a new set would further increase the wear of a new set. That could be why members such as Mark have gone thru several sets.


Mine were at 14.5" in front and 15" in the rear and now dropped a bit to 14 3/8" in front and 14 5/8" in the rear. I still don't know factory specs. I think I might buy some perches to lower the car - gotta do a search for details.

My SA gave the control arm instructions to me so I assumed it was from the service manual. He had a mit full of instructions that I asked for, but he wouldn't give to me. I told him those instructions would make life easier for dealers across the world if I posted them to educate owners. I don't think he understood the confusion we are faced with. When I walked in he was on the phone with Audi and I overhead him ask if there were issues being reported with ride height and DRC replacements. The SA relayed a no in realtime, but I didn't hear the actual response. It sounds like there may be poor communication at Audi USA.

I can't tell you if these instructions are the front or rear control arms. I can't find these instructions in my Audi Electronic Service Information software i bought on eBay. Maybe I'll print the entire DRC seciton to PDF and post it somewhere - a new thread labeled DRC truths. I'd like to include ride height if I can find it.

Did you notice where the control arm instuctions warn that the bushings will be stress and have a shortened life if the control arms are tightened while the car is raised? I know some on this forum have complained of fast suspension bushing wear - this could be why!

I'm getting more and more repect for these Audi wrenchers. These instrucitons are good but not great. Everything is hard to find in their manuals. So the mechanics probably work off of prior experience, but the technology changes so quickly that prior knowledge is wrong. Audi should go with a wizard software that linearly steps the mechaics through the process. I can imagine a visual and audible system (audio so they can keep their eyes on the tools\parts\hands.

[Hy Octane]

The current setup for DRC repair includes the new toolkit as well as a training video all techs can access thru Audis video network which explains step by step how to install the system. If there is any question about procedure, they should consult this network and follow the training videos.

[mmaturo]

That is interesting. And how did the dealer effect any change at all on your car? Hmmm, its still too high in the front. The rear is just a tick too high. Most have been coming in right at 14.5. And your front is just a tick high when most have been coming in at 14 or just a tick higher.

Drive it for a week and keep checking.

The wear from our front bushings has been well noted. Mostly, if you have car with worn out DRC it allowed too much wheel travel and thus beat up these bushings.

Also, a poor install of a new set would further increase the wear of a new set. That could be why members such as Mark have gone thru several sets.


The comment on the control arms (and DRC correlation) is 100% correct and i am sure is the reason my control arms are going so fast over and over...4 sets since in 25-30K miles...although two were replaced while hunting for noises that the replacement did not help. My independent guy has told me that before about the need to do the final tightening with the wheels on a surface. I am making an appointment soon to have my independent shop go in and check them all (loosen re-tighten while wheels on a surface rather than hanging) as everything was just replaced again.

[SAF]

The current setup for DRC repair includes the new toolkit as well as a training video all techs can access thru Audis video network which explains step by step how to install the system. If there is any question about procedure, they should consult this network and follow the training videos.

I think this is the key here. It sounds like a lot of techs, for whatever reason, aren't taking advantage of this. Either they feel they don't need to look at the video, or are under the time gun and just blindly forge ahead in order to push the car through the shop. And of course this ends up costing even more time when it comes back.

[DHall1]

Bingo.

+1


The comment on the control arms (and DRC correlation) is 100% correct and i am sure is the reason my control arms are going so fast over and over...4 sets since in 25-30K miles...although two were replaced while hunting for noises that the replacement did not help. My independent guy has told me that before about the need to do the final tightening with the wheels on a surface. I am making an appointment soon to have my independent shop go in and check them all (loosen re-tighten while wheels on a surface rather than hanging) as everything was just replaced again.

[DonS]

When are the techs given time to study these training videos? If off the clock, then they won't do it unless given incentives. If on the clock, then costs rise as they aren't repairing cars to generate income. I'm guessing the techs don't watch the videos. And for sure not the videos for repairs they might never make on low-production cars they rarely see. That adds up to the problem we are encountering.:doh:

[DHall1]

Bingo

Winner winner chicken dinner.




When are the techs given time to study these training videos? If off the clock, then they won't do it unless given incentives. If on the clock, then costs rise as they aren't repairing cars to generate income. I'm guessing the techs don't watch the videos. And for sure not the videos for repairs they might never make on low-production cars they rarely see. That adds up to the problem we are encountering.:doh:

[audios]

I think this is the key here. It sounds like a lot of techs, for whatever reason, aren't taking advantage of this. Either they feel they don't need to look at the video, or are under the time gun and just blindly forge ahead in order to push the car through the shop. And of course this ends up costing even more time when it comes back.

according to my SA Audi was only paying them 5 hrs labor on a 10-15 hr job so there maybe some pressure

[Hy Octane]

If its taking any tech 15 hrs to do this theres the problem right there. It should be a 5 hr tops job if the tech knows the process. 15 hrs reeks of someone spending time on the phone to someone else asking what to do next or why something aint right///..Hell, it dosent take 15 hrs to take out the entire drivetrain!

[audios]

If its taking any tech 15 hrs to do this theres the problem right there. It should be a 5 hr tops job if the tech knows the process. 15 hrs reeks of someone spending time on the phone to someone else asking what to do next or why something aint right///..Hell, it dosent take 15 hrs to take out the entire drivetrain!
was their first recal. didn't care how long it took as long as it got done right but apparently they couldn't do that. would have thought it would take towards 10. 2 hrs a corner plus an hr to hand pump the air out.plus the had to replace a line that broke.
felt like no pressure on one corner. i went over speed bump and front end bounced up and down with loud clanging. painful to hear,

[Aronis]

I've done some more aggressive corners and have to say I do think it's better than prior to the DRC replacement! Still softer than I think it should be, but does handle somewhat better.

The biggest improvement is simply related to the new mounts and arms, no more creaking and groaning LOL....now if I could do that with my knees?

Mike

[Hy Octane]

The current setup for DRC repair includes the new toolkit as well as a training video all techs can access thru Audis video network which explains step by step how to install the system. If there is any question about procedure, they should consult this network and follow the training videos.


CORRECTION::

Its not a video but an online 34 page service bulletin that all techs can access online. It describes step by step the proper procedures.

[audios]

was their first recal. didn't care how long it took as long as it got done right but apparently they couldn't do that. would have thought it would take towards 10. 2 hrs a corner plus an hr to hand pump the air out.plus the had to replace a line that broke.
felt like no pressure on one corner. i went over speed bump and front end bounced up and down with loud clanging. painful to hear,
called me to tell me it had blown a line. happened right after repair, during their test drive and din't catch or when i pulled out. seriously?

[DHall1]

Very important.

If you drove at all with no fluid then both shocks in the "x" are toast. If you drove and heard clunking then both shocks are toast

audi must replace 2 struts. Do not let them re-use the struts.




called me to tell me it had blown a line. Happened right after repair, during their test drive and din't catch or when i pulled out. Seriously?

[hahnmgh63]

Just picked up my car from fix #2 (first was the initial repair and new struts/shocks, then #2 to re-lower the car). The car sits 14 3/4" from center of hub to the fender in the rear and 14 1/8" in the front. Not much of an improvement from before, although I do run without the spare tire/tool kit and I do have the Odyssey 925T battery which is 39# lighter than stock so I'm looking at a weight savings off the rear end of about 100#'s which may be the reason mine is a little higher than others? Made my decision after the pickup today for the KW V3 install to begin in early Oktober, DRC heading for the dump.

[SAF]

Just picked up my car from fix #2 (first was the initial repair and new struts/shocks, then #2 to re-lower the car). The car sits 14 3/4" from center of hub to the fender in the rear and 14 1/8" in the front. Not much of an improvement from before, although I do run without the spare tire/tool kit and I do have the Odyssey 925T battery which is 39# lighter than stock so I'm looking at a weight savings off the rear end of about 100#'s which may be the reason mine is a little higher than others? Made my decision after the pickup today for the KW V3 install to begin in early Oktober, DRC heading for the dump.

Again, please allow me to get those used DRC parts from you when you do this!

[audios]

Very important.

If you drove at all with no fluid then both shocks in the "x" are toast. If you drove and heard clunking then both shocks are toast

audi must replace 2 struts. Do not let them re-use the struts.
Dave,
x? this was front right so that one and left rear are toast? assumed fronts and backs ran together. please confirm so i know what i'm arguing about when the time comes. will probably asking for a good contact at AoA.

thanks
steve

[DHall1]

You lost line pressure.

Both shocks on the "X" are toast.

0 line pressure means no fluid in the shock=shock piston hammering inside the housing=everything in the shock is garbage. Its right there in the RS6 literature.

So, if the line was the RR shock. Then you need RR and LF shocks replaced. Dont even let them tell you otherwise.

Edit: I would even go so far as to mark the two shocks so that you know they were changed. Its hard to tell if the Audi dealer knows the damage that was done. They may think your on crack or they may understand. But dont take any chances and keep on them.




Dave,
x? this was front right so that one and left rear are toast? assumed fronts and backs ran together. please confirm so i know what i'm arguing about when the time comes. will probably asking for a good contact at AoA.

thanks
steve

[audios]

^^^
when you say RS6 literature, what are you referring to? again so i know what i am arguing.

thanks

[topcat_92]

I checked my RS before a family vacation last week, and still the difference between the front and back.

One the way down the road to vacation, I get a call out of the blue from my dealer that they may have figured-out how to correct the most of the difference. I am not sure if their fix is the loosening and tighening of bolts that was mentioned earlier in the posts, but I'll find out.

I take it in this Thursday.

All is good in my DRC land. Took it in yesterday and picked it up by 1:00. Their adjustment was as described in earlier posts - loosen everything, push it around, compress/bounce the corners, and tighten everything back up. I could tell at first look that it was back to "normal" and not the 69' Camaro with air shocks heading for the drag strip (OK, it wasn't that bad).

I drove it a few miles last night around town and it felt more planted: softer over the bumps, tighter on the curves. I wasn't able to push it too hard in the city.

As my wife was pulling out of the driveway with the kids this morning, I put a tape on it with them in it (including spare, std. battery, 6-8 water bottles, and volleyball/beach gear). The front and rear are even, within 1/4".

[DHall1]

That is great news!

Enjoy


All is good in my DRC land. Took it in yesterday and picked it up by 1:00. Their adjustment was as described in earlier posts - loosen everything, push it around, compress/bounce the corners, and tighten everything back up. I could tell at first look that it was back to "normal" and not the 69' Camaro with air shocks heading for the drag strip (OK, it wasn't that bad).

I drove it a few miles last night around town and it felt more planted: softer over the bumps, tighter on the curves. I wasn't able to push it too hard in the city.

As my wife was pulling out of the driveway with the kids this morning, I put a tape on it with them in it (including spare, std. battery, 6-8 water bottles, and volleyball/beach gear). The front and rear are even, within 1/4".

[audios]

Very important.

If you drove at all with no fluid then both shocks in the "x" are toast. If you drove and heard clunking then both shocks are toast

audi must replace 2 struts. Do not let them re-use the struts.
thanks again for heads up. dealer called today to confirm the blown line and that they were waiting on a new line and two shocks to arrive.

[DHall1]

Very good.

See the new thread with the RS6 study guide info you asked for...


thanks again for heads up. dealer called today to confirm the blown line and that they were waiting on a new line and two shocks to arrive.

[Hy Octane]

It appears that the new tool for this is a delicate thing. Three local dealers here have broken them and are borrowing the only working one left from another dealer..New ones on order, but it sure looks bad when the tool designed specifically to fix a broken system is as delicate as the system its trying to fix..
Poor Audi..

[DHall1]

The tool is a one off bench design to bring a solution to our 6yr old suspension headaches. When your running cutting edge tech on a production car with ultra performance and comfort as goals....Its hard to think ahead to every problem that may surface years down the road. That said, would any of you want to be driving a Toyota Corolla with shocks so soft the side of your beard scrapes the ground on 90 degree corners? We all purchased these cars for very specific reasons. They are not run of the mill production baskets. These are one off purpose built hot rods.

Sorry to ramble. We will never see anything like this ever again on US soil. I think the tool is designed to perform a certain function and may be delicate but up to the task.

My next vehicle will be an Audi clean diesel. The first performance driven Audi diesel will be in my driveway. Audi has won over this customer and will stick with them.

Now for the tool. It could be that the dealers are screwing things up. My local dealer has made it very clear. ONLY 1 tech is even touching this tool. Nobody else in the shop touches this tool. That tool is working just fine months down the road.




It appears that the new tool for this is a delicate thing. Three local dealers here have broken them and are borrowing the only working one left from another dealer..New ones on order, but it sure looks bad when the tool designed specifically to fix a broken system is as delicate as the system its trying to fix..
Poor Audi..

[DuckWingDuck]

Dave, you should buy one of the R10s, heh.