RS 5 = 4.2, confirmed!

[AndyBG]

Sorry if it is a repost...

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090515.005/audi-confirms-a5-sportback-q5-hybrid-rs5-engine-new-a8-november-unveiling

[Vorsprung]

Sorry to say, but that is not confirmed news on the RS5's engine.
As they say, that is as per CAR's source, and not Audi themselves. Until the news is officially from Audi, its not confirmed

[tailpipe]

Vorsprung, you are totally correct.

I believe that Audi had originally intended to put a development version of the existing 4.2 litre V8 FSI in the RS5. That said, with the advent of petrol price shocks and the economic downturn the longer-term plan was to develop a new 4.0 litre TFSI V8 which is planned to be offered in various states of tune. With the sales of ALL high performance cars declining in recent months, the wisdom of putting a thirsty engine with relatively high emissions in the RS5 was debated at some length by Ingolstadt marketing people last year. By that time, the development process was well-advanced. Putting the new 4.0 litre TFSI in the RS5 was obviously the ideal solution but would delay the release date. Some people argued that the RS5 was needed immediately. Others said that it could wait and that rushing one to market with an outdated engine would limit total sales volumes. So what's coming?

There has been much disinformation about what motor the RS5 will get, but both the existing 4.2 litre FSI V8 and the new 4.0 litre TFSI V8 have been tested. Car has not been told "officially" what the RS5 spec is; Audi doesn't divulge such info prior to a new model release. One thing is for sure, it won't be a bi-turbo version of the current 4.2 engine.

It looks like the 4.0 litre TFSI isn't yet ready for prime time. In the meantime, we've been told that there will be no B8 RS4. What the hell is going on? My take is that Audi's quest for world domination is creating the mother of all headaches in terms of new model launch schedules. The timelines are so tight that it seems there is little room for error or reconsideration. It's chaos in my opinion.

Will the RS5 be a great car? Sure, it will certainly be on a par or slightly above the M3 and C63, but I doubt that it will put clean air between itself and the competition as the B7 RS4 did. Audi appears to be going for volume rather than quality.

There is more going on than we know about. I am trying to find out what the story is.

[KresoF1]

Tailpipe,

I do not agree at all with you. Specially with Audi:"...going for the volume rather then quality."

Sorry to say but, your opinion is very, very strange to me. Did you drove R8 4.2 FSI for example? You really think that 4.2 FSI HDZ will be a bad choice?

Choice of RS5 engine was over sometime ago. Three poeple here with good sources told you that BUT, you always claim that your source gave you totally different answer-4.0TFSI.

How about waiting until you see RS5 and its specs? I think that it is a wise decision to hold your final judgement about car that is not intrduced yet...

[iconcls]

I think that it is a wise decision to hold your final judgement about car that is not intrduced yet...

I'll pass judgement now, whatever the engine choice, ~330 lb-ft of torque = FAIL.

[RXBG]

the RS5's updated NA 4.2 will itself not be the big deal. coupled to the DSG it WILL. it is kind of like the GTR- the GTR engine is great. but the car is phenomenal with it AND the DSG. it is the advent of the DSG that will put the car ahead of the competition number wise.

there is a reason nissan doesn't offer the GTR with DSG.

[AndyBG]

All this disscusion going on for months, and still no solution... I really think that RS 5 will feature 4.2, B/C there isn't much evidence of that 4.0 T in RS 5 anywhere, PLUS, I think that Audi will use launch of the all new A8 to present its all new 4.0 T engine...

[Leadfoot]

Tailpipe,

While I agree with you on many fronts there is a few that I am at total odds, you claim to have someone feeding your info but on this particular subject you have been back pedalling as much if not more than CAR. I too believe there has been a lot of misinformation but I for one have known for more than a couple of years now that the source where I get my info is rock solid. I may have doubted things because of what has been going on in the world at the time and how it might affect things but never once has that person's info regarding the RS5 engine changed, it has always been a improved version of the existing 4.2 from the RS4.

The reason for no RS4 is simply public demand of such motors does not warrant the expense of man hours and development. If Audi change their mind and release an RS4 within the next 12~15months then it will be using the very same engine as the RS5. There is no doubt in my mind that we are seeing the end of these mighty revving large capacity engines, maybe this will place a cult status for the likes of the RS5 because it's an end of an era.

Would the RS5 been a better car with a 4.0TFSi :vhmmm:

I think it would definitely be a different one, maybe ultimately quicker both in acceleration and around the track but it might not be as rewarding to drive. I would much prefer to wait till the next B9 platform with it's greatly reduced overall weight and possibly sweeter weight balance where power is less of an issue and there for less of a need to increase boost to achieve the same results.

I imagine we will be the first signs of this weight saving program with the introduction of the A8 and the A6 that will follow, both I believe are to extensively use alloy in their construction, something that will be new to the A6. But so far we are seeing no dramatic shift in engine technology or engine capacity but I bet in both cases they aren't that far off. ;)

[The RS6]

Oh no, not another "RS5 engine" topic, lol... :)

As far as I can see, it's always RS6.Com veterans & the rest of the world Vs. tailpipe...

Don't get me wrong tailpipe, I'd love to see that 4.0TFSI, but judging by everyone else, 4.2 it will be...

[tailpipe]

My comments about the 4.0 litre TFSI reflect the fact that there was dissent within Audi about what motor to use in the RS5 - after the specification had been signed-off. When various people saw the proposed timeline for the new 4.0 litre V8 unit and the step-change in performance it would deliver, they thought Audi should delay the RS5's introduction to include it. Others didn't want to delay the launch, because they thought an RS5 should be available as soon as possible to field a competitor versus the latest M3 and C63, which have been around for 12 months now. I guess the extra cost of changing what had been signed off was not deemed to be acceptable. But given Audi's aggressive new product timetable, they no longer had the flexibility to change things. Look at the TT-RS. it should have come with DSG but no existing transverse box was powerful enough to handle the torque, so that's 12-18 months away. Apparently the RS3 will have the 5-cylinder engine with a new DSG box. In the meantime, the TT-RS will still sell, but personally I think the TTs is a better car for having DSG.

So, yes, with the RS5, they're launching a good car instead of a great one by giving it an engine with yesterday's tech. I seem to remember that Audi's catchphrase was Vorsprung durch technik. I don't think it is being very true to its brand values. In my book good is the enemy of the great. Great would have been the 4.0-litre engine. But this engine will come to RS cars. Eventually. When it finally gets here, (December in the A8) it'll be better than the S4's 3.0 V6 in terms of both performance and economy.

But the real problem with the RS5 isn't just the engine; it's the MLP chassis in my opinion. At the development stage, Audi didn't get what they wanted for the current A4/ A5 range, because the then Head of VW, Bernd Pichestrieder vetoed Martin Winterkorn's plan. Now that Winterkorn is in charge of the whole Group, I now understand that the B9 A4 will include a major revision to the front end of the chassis, allowing the engine to move further back? Like A4 B7 or Golf mark 6, changes will be more of a facelift than entirely new model, but will nevertheless be significant.

I'm sorry Kreso, but Stadler has publicly announced that volume is a target for Audi. You cannot grow by 25% and not impact quality. The lost of quality is not so much in build standards, but engineering investment.

As for the R8, it is a wonderful car, but let's face it, it is merely a rebodied, cheaper Gallardo with an Audi engine and built in Germany instead of italy. You have to see it for what it is. In my mind it isn't as special as a Ferrari, Aston-Martin or a Porsche 911. it's a parts bin special. Now with a V-10 it is even closer to its Lamborghini stablemate and the price has crept up quite substantially too. I think it is pig ugly too. Having a bloody great Audi grille on the front of a mid-engine car looks stupid.

I worry about Audi's strategy of using the same platform to build multiple models. This is the exact strategy that destroyed brand differentiation within both GM and Chrysler.

[Leadfoot]

I happen to agree that the next B9 will have it's engine shifted back but I also happen to believe that it will include a greater proportion of alloy in it's construction. I also agree that long term we will see the 4.2v8 being replaced but I am unsure as to whether the next RS model to receive the B9 platform will have a 4.0v8 under the bonnet. If we are to believe the rumours that BMW will be showing their next M3 with a 3.0L 6 cylinder Twin-turbo engine then I doubt Audi will use something as large as a 4.0v8.

Regardless of what everyone else thinking, I believe we will either see the 2.5L under the bonnet or a v6 both of which may be twin-charged. I personally think the next RS4/5 will use something radical instead of expected. By the way I don't know what the next RS4/5 will be using, this is only my opinion of how I see things develop.

P.S.

Your opinion of the R8 is well wide of the mark, I know everyone is entitled to their opinion but in no way is the R8 a cheap Gallardo. Best read up on the car and it's birth to see how much different and better it actually is.

Though I agree that the nose is probably it's least successful feature.

[Benman]

I'll pass judgement now, whatever the engine choice, ~330 lb-ft of torque = FAIL.

DITTO!!!

Not enough torque. Hopefully the real deal will have far more...

If I want a high reving torqueless motor, I can stick with a S2000. ;)

Ben:addict:

[RXBG]

i'd have to say that indeed the RS4 V8 needs more torque. even in the R8 application i find it being not enough to overcome momentum and get the car moving faster (unless you're in mid 3rd or 4th gear). in no way is it slow, mind you, but it needs more torque. 400 like the V10 would be perfect- but my wallet can't justify the difference with 40-50K more just for that.

i too would have liked to see more torque in the RS5 but it won't happen significantly unless the displacement increases. i believe DSG will allow it to achieve great numbers in light of the lack of more torque, however.

...i am still waiting for the next great turbocharged engine from audi. i don't think the next great one will be supercharged. but we will see the junior version in the D4 A8 in 4 months i am sure.

[KresoF1]

I'm sorry Kreso, but Stadler has publicly announced that volume is a target for Audi. You cannot grow by 25% and not impact quality. The lost of quality is not so much in build standards, but engineering investment.

As for the R8, it is a wonderful car, but let's face it, it is merely a rebodied, cheaper Gallardo with an Audi engine and built in Germany instead of italy. You have to see it for what it is. In my mind it isn't as special as a Ferrari, Aston-Martin or a Porsche 911. it's a parts bin special. Now with a V-10 it is even closer to its Lamborghini stablemate and the price has crept up quite substantially too. I think it is pig ugly too. Having a bloody great Audi grille on the front of a mid-engine car looks stupid.

I worry about Audi's strategy of using the same platform to build multiple models. This is the exact strategy that destroyed brand differentiation within both GM and Chrysler.

Huh! MLP Chassis sucks in your NOT-humble-at-all opinion...? :eye:

R8 is pig ugly car....?:doh:

What is a good Audi for you then? Some model that you imagined in your head? Apparently...

[QuattroFun]

Having owned an MTM chipped S3 in the past, I can to some extent see why some Audi fans are in denial and contempt about the NA HDZ RS5 engine and pass sour judgement on it purely from their own personal preferences whether they are likely buyers or not. However, the fact remains that the B7 RS4 was the best selling RS car ever and for every complaint there was three compliments. And the R8 is not a re-packaged Gallardo on the cheap, but the Gallardo is rather a re-cloted and more hard core Audi although it technically came first on the timeline. FI might be in vogue and the new tech is much improved since my S3 days, but it does not mean that Audi should trade in its dynamic and finesse goals for brute straightline speed in the case of the RS5 - that is slot for the RS6. There is already a great GTR so need to try to play copy cat - but no AWD M3 or mid-sized AMG. Just make it very good especially when it comes to handling and ride, Audi. MTM will surely offer a FI kit for those that want more speed.

[KresoF1]

About torque...

450Nm is not enough for most of you? For 4.2 FSI HDZ engine?

How much torque is heavy Ferrari California producing? Check out...

[Benman]

Huh! MLP Chassis sucks in your NOT-humble-at-all opinion...? :eye:

R8 is pig ugly car....?:doh:



I also was confused by those comments...

Ferrari California torque? Ferrari motors sounds wonderfull, but I am a turbo torque junkie.

Ben:addict:

[Bobbersmill]

Will it be better than a gen 2 997 c4s?
I am holding out ordering one because of the rs5, am i wasting my time?

[AndyBG]

Will it be better than a gen 2 997 c4s?
I am holding out ordering one because of the rs5, am i wasting my time?

By the time RS 5 is going to be available, next 911 (991) will be in preparing, so than you will have another dilema... Go for possible car now, than change it for next available...

Just my 0.2...

[Bobbersmill]

By the time RS 5 is going to be available, next 911 (991) will be in preparing, so than you will have another dilema... Go for possible car now, than change it for next available...

Just my 0.2...
Yes. Im not that bothered by the 997 being updated, my main concern is that if I choose the 997 and the RS5 is superb then I will be gutted, if its similar to or a little better than a B7 RS4 then I wont be as my previous RS4 although brilliant was not in the same league as the 997 c4s gen 2 with PDK I drove recently. I will also be dissappointed if they use a tweaked B7 RS4 engine then a year or so later a 4.0ltr all singing and dancing V8 appears in the Audi line up.
Hopefully all will be revealed in a couple of months.

[Leadfoot]

Engine: 3.0 TFSI, V6 gasoline engine with supercharging and FSI gasoline direct injection
Max. power output in kW (hp): 300 (408) at 6,000 – 7,000 rpm
Max. torque in Nm (lb-ft): 500 (369) at 3,000 – 5,500 rpm
Gearbox: 7-speed S tronic
Top speed: 250 km/h (155 mph) (governed)
0 - 100 km/h (0 - 62 mph): 4.4 secondsThese are the figures from the Custon Concept Q5, this acceleration time is based on that engine in a car weighing close on 1850Kgs.

Ignore the car and concenrate on the engine, imagine it in something with two or even four doors and weighing closer to 1500~1600kgs. ;)

[HKS786]

These are the figures from the Custon Concept Q5, this acceleration time is based on that engine in a car weighing close on 1850Kgs.

Ignore the car and concenrate on the engine, imagine it in something with two or even four doors and weighing closer to 1500~1600kgs. ;)

At first I didnt notice the major power increase and I noticed the 0-60 time and I was confused. :harass:

I think you're right here Leadie. Also, this new 4.0TFSi might be something very interesting!

[Leadfoot]

Don't be fooled by the title of Concept or the car it is being shown in, this is definitely not a concept engine. This engine could very well form the basis of a future RS model.

[KresoF1]

At first I didnt notice the major power increase and I noticed the 0-60 time and I was confused. :harass:

I think you're right here Leadie. Also, this new 4.0TFSi might be something very interesting!

Are you sure? Because 3.0TFSI in Q5 Concept is supercharged engine(in fact I am interested to see technical differences from S4 3.0TFSI) and 4.0TFSI will be as far as we know it biturbo(or twincharged) engine.

Just, which(if any) model will get this "high output" 3.0TFSI?

[RXBG]

what is this custon concept q5. hadnt heard of it.

[The RS6]

what is this custon concept q5. hadnt heard of it.

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18498 :thumb:

[Leadfoot]

Are you sure? Because 3.0TFSI in Q5 Concept is supercharged engine(in fact I am interested to see technical differences from S4 3.0TFSI) and 4.0TFSI will be as far as we know it biturbo(or twincharged) engine.

Just, which(if any) model will get this "high output" 3.0TFSI?

Take it as a gut feeling but I feel pretty confident that we will see this engine in something special within the next 2-3 years. It may be slightly different from the spec here but I don't think we have seen the end of the 3.0TFSi in it's present specs.

[RXBG]

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18498 :thumb:


WTF?????????????

how do we know it won't go into the RS5? it could very well be the next V8 replacement? or it could be pure smoke like the valvelift NA 3.2 engine that was once shown in that ghey A4 quattrosport concept in tokyo a couple of years ago?

how many of you would be willing to replace the current V8 in the R8 with this engine? just curious.

[HKS786]

Are you sure? Because 3.0TFSI in Q5 Concept is supercharged engine(in fact I am interested to see technical differences from S4 3.0TFSI) and 4.0TFSI will be as far as we know it biturbo(or twincharged) engine.

Just, which(if any) model will get this "high output" 3.0TFSI?

Really? I've been busy lately and must not have noticed this new 4.0 will be turbo. I thought it might be supercharged.

[Leadfoot]

Please note the power band of the engine

Max. power output in kW (hp): 300 (408) at 6,000 – 7,000 rpm
This plateau of hp is a commonly seen thing in RS engines (i.e RS4 Mk1 & RS6 Mk2 ;)). To put thing into prespective the spec of this engine is the equivalent to the RS6 having 680hp and 615ft/lbs.

[pampas]

I hope there will be a little more power in the RS5, this 3.0T seems strong enough to stay with the competition (m3 for the rs5) but not stronger/better/faster ... It will be light and we need a light front end.