whats really happening in the USA ?

[rokke]

hey,

i just wanted to know whats really going on in the US in things of "civil unrest" because of the crisis.
here in germany some ppl warn of civil unrests as a consequence of mass unemployment and so on.
madame merkl was "not amused" about these warnings

i´ve seen many pics of these cities of tents in the US because many had to leave their houses because of the credit crunch or how you called it.

im reading also very much of this guy named Alex Jones that gets the ppl crazy about your government and the elite..... is this movement really that big? is it a daily theme in discussions of the ppl?

if you read on his pages like www.prisonplanet.com or www.infowars.com i dunno what to think. thats really extreme i guess.
how big is the group that actually thinks that way?

thx

[Turboluvr]

Wow, I'd never heard of such a thing because the current ecomonic issues. I had to do a web search to see what you were refering to. I think I see the problem, its mostly media sensationalism. There are places, especially out west, where there is nice weather year round and homeless people have been gathering for decades. Reporters go there to interview the people who are homeless because of a recient forclosure against a backdrop of an existing tent encampment.

People have lost jobs, homes, and lots of invested income, but on a national scale its more of a flat tire than a blown engine. We're not on the verge of social meltdown...but civil unrest sells newspapers so it sounds like that's what you're getting in Europe. Pretty much business as usual here...with just less in the bank.

[Turboluvr]

I also had to look up who Alex Jones is. I'm a US Marine and pretty far to the conservative right on all issues and in my opinion, that guy is a nut case. His views are fringe conspiracy theories.

[M3 owner]

Pretty much business as usual here...with just less in the bank.

1 of these days U r going 2 have a huge shock.I know we r not permitted 2 discuss politics here so I will leave my response at that. I am really surprised that a conservative far right American can be so blase about the current situation. Ur country is in serious trouble mate & u r yet 2 scratch the surface.

[Turboluvr]

M3 owner, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you sir.

Yes this is a recession, like many others and it will pass. Many, including me, have lost value in homes and savings, it will come back. The only thing that will keep this from happening is the total breakdown of our society, we aren't even remotely close to that. I'm familiar with chaos and social breakdown (Iraq twice, Afghanistan twice, Kosovo, 2 Liberian civil wars, Albanian refugee camps and earthquake relief in Turkey), the US will do just fine. Jobs are lost in one sector, they will flow to another. And if I'm wrong, and this is the fall of western civilization, my 2nd Amendment rights have left me well armed and the rest will not matter.

Besides...if it was that bad, would I have gone out and bought a RS6? No, I'd have gotten a jeep or maybe a Defender 90. Have a great day. :thumb:

[rokke]

I also had to look up who Alex Jones is. I'm a US Marine and pretty far to the conservative right on all issues and in my opinion, that guy is a nut case. His views are fringe conspiracy theories.


very nice to have a marine here... the thing what he also claims is that the american people will get disarmed by the army....the 2nd ammendment or how u call it shall be destroyed so the people cannot fight back when "the shit hits the fan" o0
there are also videos on youtube where soldiers actually force people in their houses to give their guns away... a man on the streets nearly crying and screaming what they are doing and a news reporter getting all of it on tape.

on march 13th 2008 the whole congress was briefed of what to come: USA under martial law in 2009 and the imminent breakdown of the US economy in mid 2008 (didnt happen i guess :) )
they were told that there are facilities where the congress and its families are brought when the civil unrest will start and "the americans will move against their government"

one thing that alex jones always referrs to is that ur government puts fluor or fluorid into ur drinking water to you weak and easier to control. thats pretty hard to believe though.
depopulation is a goal of the elite so they can control the rest easier.

did you ever hear of project bluebeam?
they say its a project of the CIA leaked last year.
the goal is to get rid of religions of the world because you cant get one world government with that many different believesystems.
so what they are doing is creating earthquakes with huge sonic-weapons. the earthquakes will reveal ancient objects that will show that religion is not right - that we are not made by god.
than they will use holographic technology to show alien spaceships in the sky and they shall not be friendly ones.... so the people have to come together to be able to fight back......just like the UN speech of ronald reagan stated in the 70s or 80s?

that is just a very little aspect of all whats stated there and if u read more u will see that not everything is a hoax.

whats really is strange to me are these FEMA camps...there are 800 empty camps over the USA and many plastic-coffins where found along some highways....mr. jones and many others claim that they are preparing for another big false flag attack and the camps are built to inhabite "non cooperative americans".... they also claim that these coloured stickers that are sticked to ur mailboxes across the country have sth to with it.....

the things i quoted here are not my claims. but if you do very much research you will find shocking evidence that some things might be true.
if somebody is interested i could post some video links of speeches from members of the congress who officially said that they were shocked about what they have been told will happen in near future.

pls dont stamp me as nutcase - im just asking for the truth and i want to be aware.

have a nice day

[Benman]

And if I'm wrong, and this is the fall of western civilization, my 2nd Amendment rights have left me well armed and the rest will not matter.



LOL! Great reply, nice. :thumb:

However...

Rokke is correct. If and when the shit truely hit the fan, you will be disarmed the same way they disarmed the gun owning citizens in New Orleans. He is correct. That shit is right on YouTube: actual NEWS recordings of soldiers going door to door to disarm REGISTERED gun owners! You are registered (like me) so you would be disarmed (like me).

:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[M3 owner]

if it was that bad, would I have gone out and bought a RS6? No, I'd have gotten a jeep or maybe a Defender 90. Have a great day. :thumb:

If u can afford 2 buy an Audi then the US economy MUST be doing great.U have a great day as was well mate.

[DHall1]

Hey guys,

I just noticed this section of RS6.com. James, I hope your right about just alittle recession. I think we each have a different perspective depending on parts of the country and so on. I have owned property and traveled all across the West...Colorado, Oregon and Arizona. Its bad in the West.

We have cleared all debt except for 1 bank note on a house in AZ. Long story short with very low interest rates I wanted to roll our small loan into a 4.6% fixed 15yr loan. Denied. Yep, credit score of 875 and nearly 250k of income last year. Denied. We have over 50% equity on this home and they denied the loan. So, I told Wells Fargo to stick it where the sun dont shine and promply removed about 250k from all my Wells Fargo bank holdings. After some digging, there seems to be several class action suits filed against WF and I have the feeling that WF just does not want any loans in CA, AZ, NV and FL.

A quick run out to Realty Trac will tell you that we have a huge wave of foreclosures coming down the pipe. Huge, even bigger than 08. Add to that the Commercial real estate loans going into default and you will see that 09-10 will be worse than 08.

A couple of notes.

The US banks are under water. The Fed and Treasury are hiding that fact. Why, partly because the FDIC does not have the money to pay up and the government cannot afford the run on banks. So we get the snow job. Several factors have caused this to happen but its only getting worse. We are in the middle of the biggest money grab in world history. I think its a last ditch effort to go hog wild in all the money grabbing.

Corruption and greed are everywhere. Is it bad in the West? Yes.

Now, about this gun stuff. Its coming. They will take your guns. The price of ammo has tripled and supply is gone from the stores. What good are your guns if you dont have ammo?

Lastly, as I have posted on the RS6 forum. If Obama nation screws up healthcare then this country will never be the same. If that happens, I will leave. Period. Off the grid.

I see where the government has the UK just about bankrupt and the people are throwing out the PM. 1/2 his cabinet has resigned. I can only hope the US people can stop this money and power grab as the government takes over company after company and rewrites laws to suit its needs. The US dollar is toast. Contract law is toast. The Constitution is almost toast.

BTW, inflation is already here. Big time



LOL! Great reply, nice. :thumb:

However...

Rokke is correct. If and when the shit truely hit the fan, you will be disarmed the same way they disarmed the gun owning citizens in New Orleans. He is correct. That shit is right on YouTube: actual NEWS recordings of soldiers going door to door to disarm REGISTERED gun owners! You are registered (like me) so you would be disarmed (like me).

:cheers:

Ben:addict:

[Leadfoot]

I want you all to watch these two videos and see if you still think the economy will soon be on the mend. (joke)

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?p=163415#post163415

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5yxFtTwDcc

[Benman]

Hey guys...




Nice to see I am not the only one with this mindset. :thumb:

I know gjg is on board as well. ;)

Ben:addict:

BTW Leadie, nice video! :cheers:

Ben:addict:

[DHall1]

We do have a good group here.

Nice youtube vid. Its so sad and true but nobody sees it. I just dont get it.

Finally today the Supreme court put a stop to the Chrysler madness and handing Fiat a US company and 30 Billion dollars.

The Rule of Law must win this battle. It must.

If this continues....and the Supreme Court does not stop the madness. I will never, ever buy a GM or Chrysler vehicle again and every bailout company will never see a penny of my money. I will pay off my last house payment and live in a cave before moving up to the mountains or leave the country because healthcare will be screwed up by then.

RIP

[DHall1]

32% increase in Foreclosures last month from this time last year. All the spending and programs are doing nothing. We will see Foreclosures in the consumer and commercial markets on the rise like never before this year. That and bonds going thru the floor before we start to see public municipal bonds start to default. Then the shit will really hit the fan.

800 new IRS agents. There is money well spent.

Still waiting on the Supreme Court to halt this Chrysler crap-down on bond holders and dealers.

I hope none of you own a dealership or bonds in this economy.

Gas prices are up....I have made 2000 dollars on XOM in a day. Ahhhhh, the power of shorting and running long. Priceless.

[Benman]

...or leave the country because healthcare will be screwed up by then.

RIP

Sad thing is, and I have been into this subject with several people, where does one go? There is no other less "socialized" country in the world. What country doesn't have the government dabbling into the healthcare system? Canada? Hah! UK? Hah! Countries of the EU? Hah! All are great places to live, but their taxes are even higher!

Reagan once said, when the USA falls, their will be no other place to flee to. Sad. So we either work for "change" here, and I mean real change, or give up.

I worked my arse off during the Ron Paul campaign (sorry to bring up politics) but the vast majority of Americans were not ready for true liberty. Perhaps one day with enough government intervention they will be.

Ben:addict:

[DHall1]

Reagan quote was before his time. Truth is I can move up high into the mountains and pay healthcare costs out of pocket or apply for charity care if I have to. The 800 new IRS agents will never find my gold stash. If that fails, then its off to the Asia or down under. At least I can buy a new RS6 if I ever leave this country.

Doh!

The other problem is that I have paid into this Social Security Ponzi scheme for so long. What can you do now?

Ben, I guess its time to fight for change and Liberty.


Sad thing is, and I have been into this subject with several people, where does one go? There is no other less "socialized" country in the world. What country doesn't have the government dabbling into the healthcare system? Canada? Hah! UK? Hah! Countries of the EU? Hah! All are great places to live, but their taxes are even higher!

Reagan once said, when the USA falls, their will be no other place to flee to. Sad. So we either work for "change" here, and I mean real change, or give up.

I worked my arse off during the Ron Paul campaign (sorry to bring up politics) but the vast majority of Americans were not ready for true liberty. Perhaps one day with enough government intervention they will be.

Ben:addict:

[Benman]

Reagan quote was before his time.



Quite possibly it was before his time, but it would not be the first time Reagan reused someone else's quote. :D I thought he used it during his "A Time For Choosing" speech in support of Goldwater (also a friend of RP).



Ben, I guess its time to fight for change and Liberty.

I hear you.

I have a similar take on "healthcare". Other than an extreme emergency, it is completely useless. I switched over to an organic lifestyle about 5 years ago, and find I never use healthcare. In fact, our last child was even born via midwife so gee, surprise surprise, we paid out of pocket as "non traditional" medical expenses are not covered. :(

Beside, the healthcare insurance we have always fights every single bill we DO have! Freaking annoying when you only use something about once or twice a year, and they fight it tooth and nail anyway. Add up the fact my company spends $8300.00 a year for my family's "healthcare" and it is insane. I've even told them to just keep the money and reimburse me when I actually need it! But of course, that is a big no no in CA. Lame. :)

Ben:addict:

[DHall1]

What do you think all those people in that shiny Blue Cross building do all day?? Deny claims, lower reimbursement, exclude coverage and eat lunch. Period

I have not needed healthcare coverage for 20 years. Not one penny. 46 now.....I would be tempted to say the heck with it and just pay out of pocket but my wife would never let that happen.




I hear you.

I have a similar take on "healthcare". Other than an extreme emergency, it is completely useless. I switched over to an organic lifestyle about 5 years ago, and find I never use healthcare. In fact, our last child was even born via midwife so gee, surprise surprise, we paid out of pocket as "non traditional" medical expenses are not covered. :(

Beside, the healthcare insurance we have always fights every single bill we DO have! Freaking annoying when you only use something about once or twice a year, and they fight it tooth and nail anyway. Add up the fact my company spends $8300.00 a year for my family's "healthcare" and it is insane. I've even told them to just keep the money and reimburse me when I actually need it! But of course, that is a big no no in CA. Lame. :)

Ben:addict:

[DHall1]

Well,

The Supreme Court has no balls.

Chrysler cram down is allowed to proceed. Give 30 billion to the UAW and Fiat.

I will never buy a UAW produced vehicle.
I will never buy a Fiat.
I will never buy a GM.
I will never buy another bond from anyone.

Good luck government motors. You will die a slow and painful death along with the Postal Service, Amtrak, Fannie and Freedie(which are up to 500Billion BTW).

RIP

[Benman]

.....I would be tempted to say the heck with it and just pay out of pocket but my wife would never let that happen.

Haha.. I hear you! :D

Ben:addict:

[CornersWell]

Okay...

I'm pretty active over on 6speedonline's political forum. And, we have some pretty spirited discussions over there. Everyone's welcome, btw. There's lots of political information to post here in response to the OP's question. But, it's all over there already.

Anyway, this is a VERY troubling time here in the US. More so because of the damage that's being done by the Administration than the actual but temporary pain we're enduring at the moment. Arguably, FDR's New Deal and Obama's meddling actually EXTEND the length of the downturn by slowing and even preventing the upturn. This is a sad time to be an American or a capitalist, for that matter. We can only hope that in the end, the voting public wakes up. But, I have little faith.

CW

[AndyBG]

This is a sad time to be an American or a capitalist, for that matter. We can only hope that in the end, the voting public wakes up. But, I have little faith.

CW

IMHO, its to late for that... Americans schould have seen this long, long time ago...

[CornersWell]

Part of the problem is that while many did see the looming problems, there is little they could do about it. There is a very powerful media engine at work protecting and promoting their leftist agendas and candidates. People vote without even knowing what a candidate stands for anymore...

www.howobamagotelected.com

Over 50% of income tax filers pay $0 income taxes, yet they vote. That means they can vote in elected officials who are more than willing to return the favor. It's commonly referred to as selling your vote. And, organizations like ACORN commit voter fraud yet skate away untouched.

Obama, Biden, Geithner (tax cheat) and Holder ... where to start with this bunch?! And, let's not leave out Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Rangell, Dodd and Kennedy, either. Congress' approval rating was virtually at an all time low at the time of the election. Yet, the Dems, who controlled it, actually gained ground? Since then, they've only screwed things up worse, and their approval rating remains in the dumps. Yet, Obama has a ~60% approval rating? However, his policies have much lower approval ratings (<50%). So, there's some kind of massive disconnect going on right now.

CW

[DHall1]

I will venture over to 6speedonline



Okay...

I'm pretty active over on 6speedonline's political forum. And, we have some pretty spirited discussions over there. Everyone's welcome, btw. There's lots of political information to post here in response to the OP's question. But, it's all over there already.

Anyway, this is a VERY troubling time here in the US. More so because of the damage that's being done by the Administration than the actual but temporary pain we're enduring at the moment. Arguably, FDR's New Deal and Obama's meddling actually EXTEND the length of the downturn by slowing and even preventing the upturn. This is a sad time to be an American or a capitalist, for that matter. We can only hope that in the end, the voting public wakes up. But, I have little faith.

CW

[DHall1]

Sadly,

I would be in the minority of the folks who pay taxes. I pay alot....and not happy about it right now.

And even more difficult to swallow is my good friend. His family has worked in the car business for 50 years and own very profitable stores with excellent service stats. All thrown in the toilet along with the employees, property taxes, federal and state employee taxes. You name it. All thrown in the toilet.

Does anybody get it. Your throwing away 11 million dollars in tax revenue for this community for each dealership.

F"in idiots.


Part of the problem is that while many did see the looming problems, there is little they could do about it. There is a very powerful media engine at work protecting and promoting their leftist agendas and candidates. People vote without even knowing what a candidate stands for anymore...

www.howobamagotelected.com (http://www.howobamagotelected.com)

Over 50% of income tax filers pay $0 income taxes, yet they vote. That means they can vote in elected officials who are more than willing to return the favor. It's commonly referred to as selling your vote. And, organizations like ACORN commit voter fraud yet skate away untouched.

Obama, Biden, Geithner (tax cheat) and Holder ... where to start with this bunch?! And, let's not leave out Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Rangell, Dodd and Kennedy, either. Congress' approval rating was virtually at an all time low at the time of the election. Yet, the Dems, who controlled it, actually gained ground? Since then, they've only screwed things up worse, and their approval rating remains in the dumps. Yet, Obama has a ~60% approval rating? However, his policies have much lower approval ratings (<50%). So, there's some kind of massive disconnect going on right now.

CW

[Benman]

Arguably, FDR's New Deal and Obama's meddling actually EXTEND the length of the downturn by slowing and even preventing the upturn. This is a sad time to be an American or a capitalist, for that matter.
This is exactly the mindset of Mises (mises.org), excellent freemarket economist. Surpases even Milton. :thumb:




And even more difficult to swallow is my good friend. His family has worked in the car business for 50 years and own very profitable stores with excellent service stats. All thrown in the toilet along with the employees, property taxes, federal and state employee taxes. You name it. All thrown in the toilet.

F"in idiots.
Trust me, I hear you BIG TIME on this one.

My father had 4 auto repair shops and at the time (November 08') our most profitable was about to be the San Bernardino location. We rented an 10,000 sq. ft. building from Kennedy Cadillac in SB. We had a 2 year lease agreement with them, and all was going well. Mr. Kennedy was a well respected man, and had GM dealerships for 40 years in the Inland Empire, over 20 years at that location. Well, due to GM's "crisis" they PULLED his entire flooring! He had to come up with nearly $4 million CASH to keep the cars on his lot! The kicker was he was not even behind on the interest payments. Of course, none of the banks would touch the cars (I mean, hell, if GMAC won't finance them, why would they?!?). So... bye bye dealership... and because we rented our building from him... bye bye our business. Closed up shop, done. All those employees, gone.

But it warms my heart to know GM got all our tax dollars...puke:

Ben:addict:

[DHall1]

Ben,

Small world indeed. Its no wonder that the states, cities and Federal gov are all coming up short on projected tax revenue from sales, property, income, ect.

It dont take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together.

I hope to meet you at one of the CA events. We will have lots to chat about.




This is exactly the mindset of Mises (mises.org), excellent freemarket economist. Surpases even Milton. :thumb:



Trust me, I hear you BIG TIME on this one.

My father had 4 auto repair shops and at the time (November 08') our most profitable was about to be the San Bernardino location. We rented an 10,000 sq. ft. building from Kennedy Cadillac in SB. We had a 2 year lease agreement with them, and all was going well. Mr. Kennedy was a well respected man, and had GM dealerships for 40 years in the Inland Empire, over 20 years at that location. Well, due to GM's "crisis" they PULLED his entire flooring! He had to come up with nearly $4 million CASH to keep the cars on his lot! The kicker was he was not even behind on the interest payments. Of course, none of the banks would touch the cars (I mean, hell, if GMAC won't finance them, why would they?!?). So... bye bye dealership... and because we rented our building from him... bye bye our business. Closed up shop, done. All those employees, gone.

But it warms my heart to know GM got all our tax dollars...puke:

Ben:addict:

[DHall1]

Yep,

My friend owns GM dealers. They made it thru the credit crunch and floorplan funding last year just to get screwed over this go around.

Its ugly. And you better realize that people are getting guns pointed to thier heads. These agreements the GM dealers are getting are nothing less than having a gun pointed at your head.

Wagoner told em to F"off
Fritz is a walking yes man
Ken Lewis is trying to blow the whisle (BofA)

Paulson and Blankfein are laughing all the way to bank. You could say. They pulled off the biggest bank theft in the world history. Its amazing.





My father had 4 auto repair shops and at the time (November 08') our most profitable was about to be the San Bernardino location. We rented an 10,000 sq. ft. building from Kennedy Cadillac in SB. We had a 2 year lease agreement with them, and all was going well. Mr. Kennedy was a well respected man, and had GM dealerships for 40 years in the Inland Empire, over 20 years at that location. Well, due to GM's "crisis" they PULLED his entire flooring! He had to come up with nearly $4 million CASH to keep the cars on his lot! The kicker was he was not even behind on the interest payments. Of course, none of the banks would touch the cars (I mean, hell, if GMAC won't finance them, why would they?!?). So... bye bye dealership... and because we rented our building from him... bye bye our business. Closed up shop, done. All those employees, gone.

But it warms my heart to know GM got all our tax dollars...puke:

Ben:addict:

[Benman]

Paulson and Blankfein are laughing all the way to bank. You could say. They pulled off the biggest bank theft in the world history. Its amazing.

That part I already knew. Absolutely disgusting. It would make the Godfather blush.

Any time you are in the Temecula area, give me a call. Beer (or wine tour) on me. :cheers:

Ben:addict:

[DHall1]

Your in Julian run territory. We will make it over to one of the Julian runs for sure.

After that its the SCC Audi events at Buttonwillow or Laguna Seca. I want to drive on those courses before they go out of business as well.


That part I already knew. Absolutely disgusting. It would make the Godfather blush.

Any time you are in the Temecula area, give me a call. Beer (or wine tour) on me. :cheers:

Ben:addict:

[chewym]

I may not live in the "real world" but I wouldn't say it's all falling apart. I think it's important to realize that people and companies have a lot to say in the economy. Their products and services and the technology behind them are more important than government policy. Spending/tax cuts only look good in text books, in reality neither is as great as advertised.

[DHall1]

I will agree that extreme positions on both sides are not the solution.

Nobody should make 100 Million a year. A bank CEO or NBA star. Period.

As far as products, services and tech. To a point. But, throw in excess government regulation and you can throw it all down the toilet.




I may not live in the "real world" but I wouldn't say it's all falling apart. I think it's important to realize that people and companies have a lot to say in the economy. Their products and services and the technology behind them are more important than government policy. Spending/tax cuts only look good in text books, in reality neither is as great as advertised.

[Benman]

Nobody should make 100 Million a year. A bank CEO or NBA star. Period.



Not even Bill Gates? Steve Jobs? Buffet?

As bad as it is, government "caps" are not the answers. People need to be free to make as much, or as little, as they can. From Buffet, to the street bums on the coners, no caps.

Of course, that also means, NO BAILOUTS!

Ben:addict:

[DHall1]

I didnt say caps are good. No way.

I still think nobody is worth 100 million a year. I just dont like excess in anything. When a group or person is in control of too much power then you have trouble. Money = power and trouble.

Sure a case can be made for Jobs and Gates as they products that are in demand.

NBA star? Soccer star?

Is entertainment worth 100 million a year to a person?

Is David Letterman worth 30 Million? Katie Couric?


Not even Bill Gates? Steve Jobs? Buffet?

As bad as it is, government "caps" are not the answers. People need to be free to make as much, or as little, as they can. From Buffet, to the street bums on the coners, no caps.

Of course, that also means, NO BAILOUTS!

Ben:addict:

[Benman]

I still think nobody is worth 100 million a year.

Is David Letterman worth 30 Million? Katie Couric?

That of course is a different ballgame. ;)

Personally, I find Letterman to be worth a salary of $24,000.00 dollars a year with Katie Couric below even that. But... for some reason, TV Sponsors WANT them there. They get ratings, ratings demand a higher price from commercials, and since the commercials generate a "need" for a said product, sales are the company's "proof" that their advertising campaign is working. So, despite me thinking those two are near worthless, many tune in. And tuning in means more companies get people to see their crap products. I mean, look at Howard Stern, I certainly don't feel he is "worth" what he is paid either.

With Sports, again, it all comes down to advertising. Companies know that Big Stars equal big Viewers and hence want to air their products during games. And that, and ONLY that, is why TIger Woods, Shaq, Kobe, A-Rod, etc get paid such stupid salaries. No, they are NOT more talented than a brain surgeon, my God, they are just playing a game afterall, but a surgeon does NOT make companies rich with sales (well, except pharmacutical companies. ;)

I have no problem with greed, "greed" for what it is worth is unfortunately the best system for raising the overall level of standards for citizens of a given country. As bad as the USA may be, our "greed" has raised our standards of living to what only Kings and Queens were able to enjoy (and not even them) just a few centuries ago. Air conditioned homes? Refrigerated foods? Microwave ovens? Cell phones? Automobiles that transport you at speeds over a mile a minute? Internet? ALL of these things are cosidered BARE ESSENTIALS for even the LOWEST working classes here in the USA. Yet, what percentage have them in China, India, Russia, hell, the Middle East?

Greed may not be "moral", but it works. Until mankind finds a "better" path, greed and Capitalism will be the best way to rasie the standard of living for all of mankind. India's new "Tata Nano" is a great example of the "trickle down effect". :cheers:

Ben:addict:

[DHall1]

Greed can be looked at from different angles.

Just doing a better job at whatever you do is another perspective.

I dont support the excess in sports, or in TV. I have not watched DL in 20 years. KC....never. Fox News and Weather Channel...yes. None of them make over 150k and have better ratings than DL and KC combined.

I question the people in the glass towers that come up with the equations that say KC or DL deserve 30 Million. Or Howard for that matter.

[Benman]

I question the people in the glass towers that come up with the equations that say KC or DL deserve 30 Million. Or Howard for that matter.

As do I, but my humble opinion hardly matters to the Big Executives. ;)

Ben:addict:

[MikeL01]

Its my opinion that the situation in the States may be a bit over-hyped by the press and politicians. In my partof the Country, Civil and Heavy Highway construction is booming and and our employees have had as much overtime as they wanted throughout this peroid. Most have worked 50+ hours per week. The stores in the area are crowded too. Maybe we have just faired better. Turboluvr...Its cool to have another "Hard Charger" on the Boards. Semper Fi,
Doc.

[CornersWell]

Nobody should make 100 Million a year. A bank CEO or NBA star. Period.

I'd like to comment on this. As it pertains to CEOs, the bulk of that kind of compensation is from the exercise of stock options, which have appreciated over time. Salary and bonus (cash compensation) comprise a relatively small portion of overall compensation in this instance. So, the CEO only "makes" money if the stock appreciates, which means the shareholders make money, too. Furthermore, what you don't know is what the exercise price was and when the options were granted. So, these shares could have been granted years ago at exercise prices that are higher than market price at the time (e.g. 10 years ago, the incentive stock options were granted at a price of $115, but the stock price at the time was $100...today the stock price is $200, thus the CEO makes only $85, though $200 is reported). And, on top of that, the CEO pays cap gains taxes on that of 15% (surely to go up). So, the CEO who "makes" a lot of money, has made a lot for his shareholders, too.

However, as it pertains to sports stars and entertainment celebrities, I am aghast that they get paid so much. That said, that's the free market at work. So, fundamentally, I don't have any issues with it. If you don't like it, don't patronize them. Stop going to games. Stop watching Oprah. Stop drinking P-Diddy's (or whatever name that moron is going by now) Vodka. Or wearing Paris Hilton perfume. Or wearing Kimora's clothing line.

CW

[Benman]

Its my opinion that the situation in the States may be a bit over-hyped by the press and politicians. In my partof the Country, Civil and Heavy Highway construction is booming...



Those "businesses" mentioned are all tax dollar based, so not apples to apples comparison. Government spending is NOT prosperity. It is part of the problem. :cheers:

Ben:addict:

[DHall1]

Yes and no,

If you say a portion is options and incentive based. That is the crux of the problem. Do you think the numbers reported the last 3 years were legit? AAA Securities? Alt-A loans? Well, those revenues reported from those areas were the #1 reason that we ran up the markets. Now, were these guys making that 100 million on above board dealings?

There is another of my problems. All the poor saps that have 401ks and have invested with brokers and just gave their money to "someone else" Got the hose job.

I didnt. My naked shorts did just fine.....

And yes, I do not go to any professional sports games. Ever. Oh wait, if a doc gives me his tickets for a game and I go free....does that count? Then once in 46 years I have been to a NBA game. I like to go out in the real world and make my own fun. Mtn Biking, road biking, hiking, traveling in our motorhome.


I'd like to comment on this. As it pertains to CEOs, the bulk of that kind of compensation is from the exercise of stock options, which have appreciated over time. Salary and bonus (cash compensation) comprise a relatively small portion of overall compensation in this instance. So, the CEO only "makes" money if the stock appreciates, which means the shareholders make money, too. Furthermore, what you don't know is what the exercise price was and when the options were granted. So, these shares could have been granted years ago at exercise prices that are higher than market price at the time (e.g. 10 years ago, the incentive stock options were granted at a price of $115, but the stock price at the time was $100...today the stock price is $200, thus the CEO makes only $85, though $200 is reported). And, on top of that, the CEO pays cap gains taxes on that of 15% (surely to go up). So, the CEO who "makes" a lot of money, has made a lot for his shareholders, too.

However, as it pertains to sports stars and entertainment celebrities, I am aghast that they get paid so much. That said, that's the free market at work. So, fundamentally, I don't have any issues with it. If you don't like it, don't patronize them. Stop going to games. Stop watching Oprah. Stop drinking P-Diddy's (or whatever name that moron is going by now) Vodka. Or wearing Paris Hilton perfume. Or wearing Kimora's clothing line.

CW

[MikeL01]

Ben,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
25% of our projects are Government funded with very small margins and now have a multitude "stimulus" strings attached that makes them very unattractive. The majority of current and up-coming projects are private sector expansion. I am optimistic that things are starting to look up here in fly-over country.<o:p></o:p>

[Benman]

. The majority of current and up-coming projects are private sector expansion. I am optimistic that things are starting to look up here in fly-over country.<o:p></o:p>[/FONT][/COLOR]
Well that is good to hear. :D

Ben:addict:

[M3 owner]

Stop watching Oprah. Stop drinking P-Diddy's (or whatever name that moron is going by now) Vodka. Or wearing Paris Hilton perfume. Or wearing Kimora's clothing line.

CW

It’s amazing 2 c the kind of ppl that have been built up as role models these days. Australia is just as guilty 4 promoting ppl that r not worth the time of day.

Guys,I know that an Australian has absolutely no business talking about America’s economy but I have been doing business in the US 4 over 10 years & based on what I have seen & talking 2 colleagues & friends in the US,the situation over there is VERY bad.Far worse than what is being reported by the biased media. Now it could just b the West Coast (where I have worked) is severely affected (highly doubtful) but based on what I am seeing.....It doesn’t look good.

Yes,recessions r a natural & essential part of all economies but this current down turn cannot b compared 2 previous downturns.

To make matters worse,this is still rising http://costofwar.com/ & there is no end in sight.If u didn’t have this 2 deal w/ as well I wouldn’t b so concerned but things r not going 2 simply blow over in time.I hope things get better in the US because when America sneezes the Australian economy catches cold too...But I am not very optimistic about the future of both of our economies.

Maybe I am being overly dramatic or maybe it takes someone from outside with a neutral view 2 see things more clearly?

[CornersWell]

Yes and no,

If you say a portion is options and incentive based. That is the crux of the problem. Do you think the numbers reported the last 3 years were legit? AAA Securities? Alt-A loans? Well, those revenues reported from those areas were the #1 reason that we ran up the markets. Now, were these guys making that 100 million on above board dealings?

There is another of my problems. All the poor saps that have 401ks and have invested with brokers and just gave their money to "someone else" Got the hose job.

I didnt. My naked shorts did just fine.....

And yes, I do not go to any professional sports games. Ever. Oh wait, if a doc gives me his tickets for a game and I go free....does that count? Then once in 46 years I have been to a NBA game. I like to go out in the real world and make my own fun. Mtn Biking, road biking, hiking, traveling in our motorhome.

ISO compensation is not the crux of the problem. ISO compensation was used more heavily in response to government taxation of executive compensation. If you remember, years ago, the Federal Government wanted to put a surcharge on compensation over $1MM. The market end-ran it with ISOs. However, the dual purpose is to align executive interest with that of shareholders. So, when shh make $, the executives make money. And, vice versa. That said, you're correct in that accounting issues crept into the mix, as executives sought to pump up and get their bonuses. So, who's fault is that? And, all executive compensation has a current cash portion and a longer-term equity portion, for the most part, now. This is specifically designed to reduce the problem of short-term money-grabbing. Does it work? Not perfectly, but the managing executives do have limitations on and windows when they can sell.

However, and here's the flaw in your logic (if there is one), they're not omniscient. They don't know when the market will crater or take off like a rocket. While they may have a better sense than the average investor on the street, no one can time the market perfectly. So, they have a considerable amount of their net worth tied up in the shares of the company the work for and are generally under-diversified. They will sell when 1) they can and 2) they think things are turning down. They can buy anytime. So, it's always useful to watch the insider activity.

As far as what was reported over the last three years, GAAP was generally fine, even though management could "manipulate" and "smooth" earnings to some extent, UNTIL SarbOx turned up in response to Enron, Worldcom and other fiascos. Now, with mark-to-market FASB 157, the swings are more pronounced. And, in the context of what's gone down due to 157 mark-downs, it's also true that when things improve (note, I didn't say if), there will be lots of 157 mark-ups.

And, specifically, you seem to focus on one industry, although perhaps you were making a general observation and comment. The market is not perfectly efficient. The market will never be. It's true that the regulatory gaps in the home loan origination and securitization markets were taken advantage of. But, while it may take two to tango, in this instance I think it took 20. It took borrowers who knew they were borrowing too much, it took loan originators to lend too much, it took banks to over-participate, it took Ibanks to make it happen, and it took government to create a political atmosphere that encouraged irresponsible lending and failed to rein it in. Lots of culpable parties. And, each one took what they could. So, it's kind of unfair to try to pin it on just a couple of players. That said, I certainly wish they had been more strict with lending. Everyone involved, that is.

And, it's true that most investors have taken a bath. For now. If you're paying attention, for the year, we're back in the black. So, we're scratching our way back. It won't be quick, though, and there are some real issues that I don't think we've addressed, yet. It will be unfortunate for those who bought high and sold low for whatever reasons, because they won't participate in a recovery whenever it might happen. Structurally, though, I have issues with the way brokers are compensated. I think they ALL suck. And, I'm in VC and PE work. Even these guys are crooks on some level.

Naked shorts are great, if you have the risk tolerance for them. I'm happy for you that you've done well with them. Many simply can't afford the losses if they turn bad on them. Moreover, again, it's a timing issue. Since you can't time the market perfectly, you have to have the war chest to cover any losses if and when you get out. Your war chest may run out before you're proven right and the market goes down. I struggled with Google. I KNEW their share price was just off the charts and unjustified. However, to short them was to go against the market. And, going against other investor's perceptions.

Anyway, I wasn't actually addressing the comment about patronizing sporting events to you, in particular. Just in general.

CW

[DHall1]

Very detailed response. Thanks

To clarify. The numbers reported by the banks during the high times were correct. The problems grew from bad lending and all the folks fueling that fire. Again your correct. GAAP is and was being followed for the most part and yes mark to market has put a damper on the party now that all these loans are in default.

To clarify my naked short remark. My primary use of this practice is on the option side. Typically in a vertical postion that is hedged. Either up or down by selling/borrowing the Put or Call. It must be watched very close even with the hedge cover. These are mostly 1-4 day postions on stocks with movement and in a range.

Example. (DVN) Go have a look at that bad boy. :hahahehe:


ISO compensation is not the crux of the problem. ISO compensation was used more heavily in response to government taxation of executive compensation. If you remember, years ago, the Federal Government wanted to put a surcharge on compensation over $1MM. The market end-ran it with ISOs. However, the dual purpose is to align executive interest with that of shareholders. So, when shh make $, the executives make money. And, vice versa. That said, you're correct in that accounting issues crept into the mix, as executives sought to pump up and get their bonuses. So, who's fault is that? And, all executive compensation has a current cash portion and a longer-term equity portion, for the most part, now. This is specifically designed to reduce the problem of short-term money-grabbing. Does it work? Not perfectly, but the managing executives do have limitations on and windows when they can sell.

However, and here's the flaw in your logic (if there is one), they're not omniscient. They don't know when the market will crater or take off like a rocket. While they may have a better sense than the average investor on the street, no one can time the market perfectly. So, they have a considerable amount of their net worth tied up in the shares of the company the work for and are generally under-diversified. They will sell when 1) they can and 2) they think things are turning down. They can buy anytime. So, it's always useful to watch the insider activity.

As far as what was reported over the last three years, GAAP was generally fine, even though management could "manipulate" and "smooth" earnings to some extent, UNTIL SarbOx turned up in response to Enron, Worldcom and other fiascos. Now, with mark-to-market FASB 157, the swings are more pronounced. And, in the context of what's gone down due to 157 mark-downs, it's also true that when things improve (note, I didn't say if), there will be lots of 157 mark-ups.

And, specifically, you seem to focus on one industry, although perhaps you were making a general observation and comment. The market is not perfectly efficient. The market will never be. It's true that the regulatory gaps in the home loan origination and securitization markets were taken advantage of. But, while it may take two to tango, in this instance I think it took 20. It took borrowers who knew they were borrowing too much, it took loan originators to lend too much, it took banks to over-participate, it took Ibanks to make it happen, and it took government to create a political atmosphere that encouraged irresponsible lending and failed to rein it in. Lots of culpable parties. And, each one took what they could. So, it's kind of unfair to try to pin it on just a couple of players. That said, I certainly wish they had been more strict with lending. Everyone involved, that is.

And, it's true that most investors have taken a bath. For now. If you're paying attention, for the year, we're back in the black. So, we're scratching our way back. It won't be quick, though, and there are some real issues that I don't think we've addressed, yet. It will be unfortunate for those who bought high and sold low for whatever reasons, because they won't participate in a recovery whenever it might happen. Structurally, though, I have issues with the way brokers are compensated. I think they ALL suck. And, I'm in VC and PE work. Even these guys are crooks on some level.

Naked shorts are great, if you have the risk tolerance for them. I'm happy for you that you've done well with them. Many simply can't afford the losses if they turn bad on them. Moreover, again, it's a timing issue. Since you can't time the market perfectly, you have to have the war chest to cover any losses if and when you get out. Your war chest may run out before you're proven right and the market goes down. I struggled with Google. I KNEW their share price was just off the charts and unjustified. However, to short them was to go against the market. And, going against other investor's perceptions.

Anyway, I wasn't actually addressing the comment about patronizing sporting events to you, in particular. Just in general.

CW

[DHall1]

Extended Stay Hotels file Chapter 11.

Commercial real estate anyone? Bonds? Anyone?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124507864459215309.html

[DHall1]

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/18/obama-has-fired-2-igs-in-2-weeks-leashed-another/

Maybe we need more "czar's" instead.

This one is better. Dont you think there is some left over poop on that hand?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/12/gerald-walpin-obama-remov_n_214715.html

http://moelane.com/2009/06/17/let-us-recap-the-gerald-walpin-situation/

[Benman]

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/18/obama-has-fired-2-igs-in-2-weeks-leashed-another/



I love this guy's quote:

"That aside, why are we surprised? Isn’t this the Chicago way? The way of every political group that has gained power making the arguments Obama did last fall? Did anyone ever think that those who think putting a remarkably dishonest guy in charge of Treasury would not be likely to keep IG’s on a short and quite politicl leash?" :applause:

Ben:addict:

[Trebor]

Reward for poor performance – Unaceptable
Poor performance hitting the masses, undeservidly – Unacceptable
Living beyond your means – Unstainable
Paying back the the bailout capital – inevitable
Hiding from the truth - Reality

[DHall1]

Ben,

You like eh? :hihi:

While were on the subject or to change alittle.

Why is it ok for Fannie and Freddie CEOs to make millions and millions and millions of dollars to support insolvent business models while we the people continue to pay into the failed business models?

I think were at 500 Billion and counting.

But now the admin is calling for pay caps?

:cool2:


I love this guy's quote:

"That aside, why are we surprised? Isn’t this the Chicago way? The way of every political group that has gained power making the arguments Obama did last fall? Did anyone ever think that those who think putting a remarkably dishonest guy in charge of Treasury would not be likely to keep IG’s on a short and quite politicl leash?" :applause:

Ben:addict:

[CornersWell]

Why is it ok for Fannie and Freddie CEOs to make millions and millions and millions of dollars to support insolvent business models while we the people continue to pay into the failed business models?

Frank Raines (ex-Clinton pal) is the former Fannie CEO and was charged with accounting fraud. He settled with DoJ for his stock in Fannie, IIRC. Or, at least a significant portion of his stock. Funny thing is the stock is worthless!

Anyway, how can it happen? Easily, unfortunately. There's great difficulty in evaluating a CEO's performance. Their plans, programs and strategies play out over years and decades. It's hard to judge whether they're successful until the chickens have come home to roost, so to speak. So, Raines could pass the buck to his predecessor and not face the music of his own poor decisions. The only reason Raines was charged with anything was because it was an immediate money grab and the direct relationship between what he did and why he did it (higher earnings = higher bonus). If it hadn't have been for this, he'd almost certainly been untouchable under the Business Judgment Rule (BJR).

I think, also, the way we compensate plays a role. More equity, more risk in the failure of the business. OTOH, there's more upside if there's success. So, guys like Raines were clearly given too much cash. However, give more equity, and the compensation guys (and Congress, too, apparently) will freak out that they're making too much compensation. There's no happy middle ground.

What is SO infuriating, though, is 1) why the press has moved on and let these executives essentially get a pass and 2) that there is a glass floor and CEOs (and other senior executives) seem to continue to have opportunity after opportunity even after they've clearly been proven to have made bad decisions along the way. Think of "Chainsaw" Al Dunlap. Or Gil Amelio. Or Bob Nardelli. They ALL ran multiple companies into the ground. Once they fail, they should be ashamed. And, their careers should be pretty much over as a hired executive. But, they're not.

As Warren Buffett has said, "I only want to invest in companies that idiots can manage, because one day an idiot will be running it."

CW

[Trebor]

Quote - As Warren Buffett has said, "I only want to invest in companies that idiots can manage, because one day an idiot will be running it."

Fantastic insight & oh so true

[DHall1]

Red Roof Inns have defaulted on 361 million of debt. They are leveraged a total of 1.2 Billion.

Anybody want to buy some bonds for pennies on the dollar?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124578596153843175.html

I think the best move is plywood. There going to need lots of plywood to board up all these businesses.



Extended Stay Hotels file Chapter 11.

Commercial real estate anyone? Bonds? Anyone?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124507864459215309.html

[DHall1]

Everyone,

Dont worry, it will be all right. We will make up the lost tax revenue by taxing your sorry asses even more.

http://www.clubforgrowth.org/2005/08/im_going_back_to_calii_dont_th.php

If you cant learn from history....you never will learn anything.

I still own property in Oregon. Why? many of the same reasons above.

0 sales tax vs 9% in AZ
20 dollar car tags on the RS6 vs 800 in AZ
80 dollar motorhome tags vs $5000/yr in AZ

The list goes on. You get the idea.

[Benman]

I still own property in Oregon. Why? many of the same reasons above.

0 sales tax vs 9% in AZ
20 dollar car tags on the RS6 vs 800 in AZ
80 dollar motorhome tags vs $5000/yr in AZ

The list goes on. You get the idea.

But what about the Property Tax base?

[DHall1]

Yes,

Oregon property tax rate is high. We sold our "nice" house which was about $10,000 a year in property tax.

We kept the rental/investment property that has 1,200/yr in property tax. I save about 10,000/yr on misc items as a result of keeping that Oregon property. I think its a keeper.

:race:

Sales tax paid on my RS6 last year? 0, ziltch, nada.
Sales tax would have cost me $3500 in AZ.

Ouch


But what about the Property Tax base?