Porsche 911 - What next?

[tailpipe]

I am quite excited by the Panamera. I think it is going to be a genuinely great car that goes extremely well. Anyone who as ever had to give up having a 911 for the sake of carrying his family around will now be able to return to the brand without feeling compromised. Maybe i just believe the hype and the reality will be sore disappointment.

But, assuming that the Panamera is successful, where does this leave the 911? One thing I think the Panamera may do in the process of establishing itself is expose just how dated and possibly flawed the 911 architecture is.

I mean, isn't it time that the 911 got a proper rear mid-engined chassis? Some people reckon that the Cayman S is a better handling car. When you consider the fundamental laws of physics as far as they affect cars with rear-mounted engines, i.e. cars with their motors located behind the rear axle, you can't help agreeing with such a point of view.

Any ideas about what Porsche will do? Will the Panamera lead to a new 2-door Porsche coupe built on the same chassis? A sort of 928 successor? Or will the Cayman be used as the basis of an even more focused rear mid-engine coupe/ roadster?

I'd love to hear what Porsche aficionados think the way ahead is. (In other words, I'm looking forward to being flamed by AndyBG and co!!!!!!)

[KresoF1]

http://www.drivers-republic.com/first_look/news/details.cfm?articleid=1a74aea7d0c540f6a71412c7eb72 f2dc

[artur777]

http://www.drivers-republic.com/first_look/news/details.cfm?articleid=1a74aea7d0c540f6a71412c7eb72 f2dc

Very informative but however doesn't answer the question about the future of 91 platform itself.
GT3 can easily emerge into rear-mid engine-based sportcar in the future.
KresoF1, could you give us some of your thoughts on this?

BTW - the pics of next 911 generation (991 platform) show that the car has its engine moved front.

[KresoF1]

BTW - the pics of next 911 generation (991 platform) show that the car has its engine moved front.

Hmm... NO. Wheelbase is little bit longer, but engine is still on rear axle. It has been already decided-991 will be rear engine car. Little bit wider and different, but 911 in its core.

[M3 owner]

expose just how dated and possibly flawed the 911 architecture is.

Hilarious,side splitting comedy. 911 was, is & always will b the benchmark.

Panamera platform MAY lead 2 a RWD/4WD front engined car similar to 928.

There have been rumours that Porsche created Panamera in order 2 transform the Carrera into a 2 seater,mid mounted V8.The V8 would obviously come from the Cayenne.
Wide body Carrera’s (wider than usual) have been spotted 4 some time now, there was an article in Auto car that claimed these wide body Carreras r in fact rear engine V8’s.

Both rumours dismissed by Porsche & mocked by Porsche boys on various forums. Porsche have repeatedly said that 911 will always be a 4 seater rear mounted flat six.Current 911 architecture isn’t going anywhere. I think u’ll find that ppl who mock the 911 layout have never owned/driven a current 911.

Rumours regarding nxt Gen 911:
Base Carrera engine downsized to 3.4L (260KW)
Carrera S 3.8L (300KW)

All this is speculation...The only things certain are that the nxt 911 will b rear mounted,faster,lighter,greener,wider,lower,100mm longer than current 911 (improving stability & weight distribution) sharper 2 drive,more luxurious & technological advanced (esp in the aerodynamics department)than previous models. Porsche engineers have flat out been told that they must produce a car that will topple the R8 & GTR.

[AndyBG]

What amuses me most is that actualy these kind of disscusions are ''on table'' for some twenty or more years. 911 is ''wrong'' in many ways, and no one is forcing anyone to own it. Problem is that so many times so far it has proven it self to be, by far, most sofisticated sport car on the market.

IMHO 911 will allways be 911, with its engine back, in ''wrong'' place and its ''allways the same'' looks. Porsche has proven that it is more than capable of making any kind of sports car, Carrera GT was best ''super car'' on the market, and best value for the money back than. Cayenne is best ''performace SUV''...

I'm not expecting anything like 928 successor to come, now that we have a Panamera here. It is ''four door COUPE'' after all. I think that 911 will continue to astonish automotive world, and it will keep to defy the laws of physics... Porsche needs to keep the 911 this wrong as it is, in contrary it wouldn't be interesting. Imagine Porsche producing ''normal'' sports car, if the ''wrong'' kind of 911 is this good, how good the ''normal'' would be... ;)

:cheers:

[Fab]

The 911 has always been the GT benchmark and nothing should and will not be changed in terms of engine place.

This is why it is a myth and 911 owners love it because of this. This is simply the soul of the car.

Once you get used to how 911 handles and has to be driven then the feedback will always be the same : unique experience.

[tailpipe]

I guess one of the reasons I am skeptical about the 911 layout is that I know three people who have died in them. In each case they exceed either their own capabilities and/ or those of the car. Early 1980s examples could be quite vicious in inexperienced hands. The appeal of the original Quattro was that it was so forgiving, (which shows how old I am.) I've read many times that part of the appeal of the 911 is that it demands a certain skill. While I accept this, I am a purist and believe that all major components should be contained within the wheelbase! One of the reasons i like the Panamera is that it is a proper 21st Century car. Of course, when you look at how Porsche has evolved the 911 over the years, you have to take your hat off to them.

M3 Owner, you make me sound like a peasant - which I probably am - you need to own a 911 to fully appreciate its manifold subtle qualities, but I still don't understand the depth of its appeal.

[AndyBG]

911 has its ''downsides'' and that isn't news. Somehow, there is still enough people that wants to buy it and drive so Porsche doesn't need to change anything.

[Fab]

I guess one of the reasons I am skeptical about the 911 layout is that I know three people who have died in them. In each case they exceed either their own capabilities and/ or those of the car. Early 1980s examples could be quite vicious in inexperienced hands. The appeal of the original Quattro was that it was so forgiving, (which shows how old I am.) I've read many times that part of the appeal of the 911 is that it demands a certain skill. While I accept this, I am a purist and believe that all major components should be contained within the wheelbase! One of the reasons i like the Panamera is that it is a proper 21st Century car. Of course, when you look at how Porsche has evolved the 911 over the years, you have to take your hat off to them.

M3 Owner, you make me sound like a peasant - which I probably am - you need to own a 911 to fully appreciate its manifold subtle qualities, but I still don't understand the depth of its appeal. I never owned a Porsche but drove few models including various 911 and Boxster and I fully agree with you i.e. a Porsche buyer who likes to drive the car as it is supposed to be (not just buying and driving around town as many people do...) then one must be humble as this think requires attention, common sense and most importantly (at higher speed or high rhythm) in dept knowledge of 911 mass distribution. As this can lead as you mentionned to serious injuries.

I have been and still am considering a 911 but the above makes me wonder and also I like Audi as we all do here. Without having the 911 appeal and history this is why I like the TT RS which offers a very good trade off vs 911. It is so pleasant to floor almost without any fear of spinning or even worse. And even a 4S does not totally change 911's behaviour so... Some people will tel you thatn a TT even RS is a simple Audi and the image is not even comparable to Porsche and that price wise you can get a nice 2nd hand 911 for the TT RS price blablabla but this is not an issue for me.

But to come back to the real subject Porsche is loved and hated because of this and nothing should be changed.

[M3 owner]

M3 Owner, you make me sound like a peasant - which I probably am - you need to own a 911 to fully appreciate its manifold subtle qualities, but I still don't understand the depth of its appeal.

Tailpipe,I have nothing against u,I don’t even know u. I have over 200 posts here & I have never flamed/disrespected any member on this forum.I have the up most respect & admiration 4 every1 on this board.

The very point of this forum is 2 exchange different points of view. All I have done is make reference 2 the fact that most ppl who criticize the 911 4 being rear engine have never driven a modern day 911. I made no mention/suggestion of u being a peasant.There r faster cars out there but none of them perform like a 911 & this is something a person can only understand after they have spent time in 1. 911’s are more addictive than crack.Since the day it was conceived ppl have been claiming that the engine is in the wrong place yet it has beaten & outlasted all its rivals.Simply,the Carerra is the best car in the world.Germans aren’t stupid ppl, they r very,very smart.If the rear engine layout was a disadvantage they would have rectified it a long time ago.

Truth of the matter is,a person would REALLY have 2 provoke a modern Carerra for the back end 2 whip out.

Hopefully I've cleared that up.Don’t let yourself get bothered by words on a computer screen coming from a person using an alias that you don't & never will know.

Off topic: R u going 2 watch Amir Khan & Barrera fight @ M.E.N Arena 2morrow ? I can’t wait 4 this fight.I met Amir in LA last year,top bloke.

[artur777]

Tailpipe,I have nothing against u,I don’t even know u. I have over 200 posts here & I have never flamed/disrespected any member on this forum.I have the up most respect & admiration 4 every1 on this board.

The very point of this forum is 2 exchange different points of view. All I have done is make reference 2 the fact that most ppl who criticize the 911 4 being rear engine have never driven a modern day 911. I made no mention/suggestion of u being a peasant.There r faster cars out there but none of them perform like a 911 & this is something a person can only understand after they have spent time in 1. 911’s are more addictive than crack.Since the day it was conceived ppl have been claiming that the engine is in the wrong place yet it has beaten & outlasted all its rivals.Simply,the Carerra is the best car in the world.Germans aren’t stupid ppl, they r very,very smart.If the rear engine layout was a disadvantage they would have rectified it a long time ago.

Truth of the matter is,a person would REALLY have 2 provoke a modern Carerra for the back end 2 whip out.

Hopefully I've cleared that up.Don’t let yourself get bothered by words on a computer screen coming from a person using an alias that you don't & never will know.

Off topic: R u going 2 watch Amir Khan & Barrera fight @ M.E.N Arena 2morrow ? I can’t wait 4 this fight.I met Amir in LA last year,top bloke.

You are overexpectng the Carrera
Cayman is much more modern BTW. the dilemma - to develop Cayman o 911. Now the choice is for 911 as the senior model, but it could change in the future;-)
If you could imagine what times at the track could deliver Cayman with the engine from 911 Turbo - you would just be very very suprprised in how quick this little mid-engine car could be...

[tvrfan]

when porsche knows that the Boxer in the rear isnt anymore the best way for handling, then porsche will change it to maybe middle engine layout for 911. porsche wants always built the best sportscars in the world. and that is what they do defenetly

[M3 owner]

You are overexpectng the Carrera
Cayman is much more modern BTW. the dilemma - to develop Cayman o 911. Now the choice is for 911 as the senior model, but it could change in the future;-)
If you could imagine what times at the track could deliver Cayman with the engine from 911 Turbo - you would just be very very suprprised in how quick this little mid-engine car could be...

Almost every Porsche tuner offers a 3.8L conversion 4 the Cayman S,others offer a s/c or twin turbo conversion. All these modded Cayman’s have produced very impressive performance figures but every journalist that has written a review on these cars has emphasised that despite the impressive performance, it’s not a 911.
In a recent review of the new Cayman S in an Aussie car mag, the journalist ranted & raved on how great the new Cayman S is yet he ended the article with, “there’s nothing quite like a 911”
I can only repeat myself,if u r lucky enough 2 spend time behind the wheel of a modern Carrera u will know what all the hype is about. It’s does EVERYTHING right. The Cayman will never replace the 911, the 911 will always be Porsches flagship model.
How can u not respect or b in awe of a car that has been the king of hill since its inception ?

[tailpipe]

M3 Owner,

(Don't worry I wasn't upset by your remarks at all. I was just acknowledging the fact that while I know a lot about many cars, my one area of weakness is Porsche. I am trying to work out what I think about them as I can't decide whether I love or hate them. The informed owner rather than journalist views you get on websites like this is truly fascinating. So I certainly wasn't upset by your remarks. I agree with you that one of the best things about this forum is how members almost universally treat each other with respect and courtesy. So thanks for saying what you did.)

Now, back to business...

UK Motoring Journalists don't agree with Aussie ones. They seem to be saying with one voice that the Cayman S with the PDK and Limited Slip Diff is now the best handling Porsche. That's Car, Top Gear, Evo, Autocar and What Car?

The way I see it, the Cayman is creeping up in price and performance towards 911 territory and it makes me think Porsche are deliberately migrating both the Cayman and 911 towards each other to the point where they will merge into a single model, called a 911.

What I didn't realize was the with successive versions of the 911 the engine has been moved forward to the point where it is now almost over the rear axle. (Any one care to comment on this as i don't know whether this is true.

Is the 911 King of the Hill? It must be pretty close, but for my money a Ferrari 430 probably has an edge (as well as a significantly larger sticker price) and the Italian car is mid-engined, just like Formula 1 cars.

[AndyBG]

This is pointless...

911 STILL HAS ITS ENGINE BEHIND REAR AXLE

And yes, it is disadvantage, but for some reason people are buying it!

Yes, Cayman does have better engine layout, and it is purposely restrain in order not to threaten 911s dominance...

911 is essence of Porsche, and Porsches ability to keep it on the top of the scale for many years proves Porsche to be greatest sports car manufacturer... 911 is dominating every race that competes in, and guess what, all of its competitors have central or front engine layout...

Ferraris are great, fantastic cars, but none of them is out there ''fighting'' with ''extra weight'' on its back... 911 is ''king of the hill''!

[Leadfoot]

Here is the dilemma that faces Porsche with the future of the 911. It roughly costs the same as the Cayman to produce but sells for approx 25% more and currently it's sales aren't showing much sign of dropping beyond the present economical down turn that is affecting all so called exotic sportscars.

Porsche have three choices

1# Develop the Cayman to it's full protential and produce the best sportscar currently available at any price but not get the same return on their investment that they currently get from the 911.

2# Shift the positioning of the 911 into a true sportscar by moving the engine to mid mount, thus losing the rear seats and reducing it's appeal and possible sales.

Or 3# Keep the same basic formula and keep Porsche happy, it's customers happy and it's shareholders happy.

[M3 owner]

Ferrari’s r hugely over rated,that show pony is not in the same league as a Porsche.I would never buy an Italian car.They r great 2 look at but r unreliable cars that cannot be driven hard without them falling 2 pieces or breaking down. Lambo is the only exception 2 the rule only because u know who builds them.

911 is a classic,changing its appearance or engine location would be like painting a moustache on the Mona Lisa.