Just talked to someone, and got the scoop on the RS5 motor...

[p3u]

It WILL be a twin turbo beast! Not NA, not supercharged, turbo!

Interesting bits of info, the RS5 test vehicle has been running around WITH an NA motor, that has a dual throttle body setup. This has been part of testing for the chassis tuning and pilminary transmission (dsg) testing.

I think that the test vehicle is what is throwing the impression of it being NA, as it is, but the final product will be TT!

YEAH! :cheers:

[tvrfan]

how trustfully is your write? if it will be soo, then its a dream!

[p3u]

If I didn't trust the source I would not have posted anything. This person got to see the thest vehicle for the RS5 when they brought it out to Colorado, (and I missed it!) and he got to speak with the engineers from Germany that were doing high altitude tests, and view the vehicle, along with the tt-rs...

[Ruergard]

I really, relly hope this is true. Turbos is what Audi does best and the RS5 should be one hell of a car with two of those... :revs:

[TTDriver]

Hello p3u

Did your source say something new about the TTRS?

Thanks

[p3u]

He said it looked amazing, and the turbo was 100% visible, not hidden behind anything. Not sure how close to production it was though.

Also said it had the same red colored head as the RS4...

[artur777]

Nice info
I agree because RS5 with 4.0 V8 TT is the best and most logical choice in current circumstances...
NA test mules can be used for fine tuning the drivetrain

[AndyBG]

This would be GREAT! I still expect 4.2 N/A, and I'm still hoping that I'm SO WRONG!!! :D

[kju]

looking forward to see first official pictures of RS5 ...

[RXBG]

i still think it will be NA also. though i wish it were to be a TT. i also think a TT would make sense because in different stages of tuning it could be placed in the A6/S6/A7/A8.

[AndyBG]

Thing is, Audi is working on the new forced induction 4.0l V8 turbo or S/C, and that engine will replace good old 4.2 in the future, starting with new A8, only problem is that I'm expecting RS 5 to feature last ''incarnation'' of the 4.2 N/A, B/C, as I said in some other post, Audi is ''buying'' time with this car..., it is probably the last performance Audi ever to be equiped with N/A engine... Once more, I hope I'm wrong, and I'm hoping for the turbo engine.

[Erik]

TT and DSG is what I've heard.

[AndyBG]

TT and DSG is what I've heard.

I honestly hope that you have wright info'! V8 bi-turbo paired with DSG (S-tronic) will be one nice combo'...

[youry]

it can still be possible for this change to TT.. as we know the RS5 was initially targeted to be released before TT RS and that it got swapped, so this measn we will not hear about official RS5 before end of year, which leaves quite some time to finalize the engine specs right ?

I'm right there waiting for both cars to make my deicison to replace my ex RS4 V8. I really loved my RS4 V8, but was not able to go much more over the original power (already that it does not have the 420 hp announced, but ather 380hp, so I ended with all mods incl remap, full exhaust at real 420hp). goign for a comrpessor is so expensive that it is not a good deal.

The TT RS 340hp will have its power for sure (like all Turbos applications by audi). and knowing that this TT will be 400 to 500 pounds less the power to weight will be same as RS4 V8, so am expectign to see performance figures as the RS4 V8 but with serious tunability.

If RS5 is another NA engine.... It will not be for me. if its a TT, I will take without hesitation....

the issues with all this, is that I will need to be patient before we know for sure what is behind that RS5 hood...

[artur777]

it can still be possible for this change to TT.. as we know the RS5 was initially targeted to be released before TT RS and that it got swapped, so this measn we will not hear about official RS5 before end of year, which leaves quite some time to finalize the engine specs right ?

I'm right there waiting for both cars to make my deicison to replace my ex RS4 V8. I really loved my RS4 V8, but was not able to go much more over the original power (already that it does not have the 420 hp announced, but ather 380hp, so I ended with all mods incl remap, full exhaust at real 420hp). goign for a comrpessor is so expensive that it is not a good deal.

The TT RS 340hp will have its power for sure (like all Turbos applications by audi). and knowing that this TT will be 400 to 500 pounds less the power to weight will be same as RS4 V8, so am expectign to see performance figures as the RS4 V8 but with serious tunability.

If RS5 is another NA engine.... It will not be for me. if its a TT, I will take without hesitation....

the issues with all this, is that I will need to be patient before we know for sure what is behind that RS5 hood...

awesome position
agree with you
If RS5 is TT I go for it for sure...
If NA I will change my mind and look around

I hope that Audi decided to postpone RS5 introduction to have enough time to prepapre the TT engine

[TTDriver]

What output do you expect from the 4.0 V8 TT?
~450 Hp?
@youry
Was that you who sold his awesome sprint blue RS4 with 20" wheels on luxauto.lu?

[youry]

I think yes. but i sold it via mobile.de to a guy in Norway.

you can find more pics here:
www.rsquattro.com (http://www.rsquattro.com)

[artur777]

What output do you expect from the 4.0 V8 TT?
~450 Hp?
@youry
Was that you who sold his awesome sprint blue RS4 with 20" wheels on luxauto.lu?

450 Hp at minimum
480 Hp at maximum

[Leadfoot]

N/A or TwinTurbo?

Conflicting info is being passed and I don't understand why, I can only add to this debate that the info I have been given in the pass has always been spot on and I ask myself, why would he now pass false info?

My conclusion is he wouldn't so I stick to the belief that the RS5 is running a N/A engine until I am told otherwise.

[TTDriver]

Thanks youry that's a really stunning car you've had.

[RXBG]

if the RS5 were to get a TT V8 the output would be over 500 hp folks. and again, it would make faster than R8 V8, which unless phased out, would be a problem for audi.

[p3u]

N/A or TwinTurbo?

Conflicting info is being passed and I don't understand why, I can only add to this debate that the info I have been given in the pass has always been spot on and I ask myself, why would he now pass false info?

My conclusion is he wouldn't so I stick to the belief that the RS5 is running a N/A engine until I am told otherwise.


Read the first post in the thread...

[Leadfoot]

Read the first post in the thread...

I read the first post but I have been told on numerous occasions that the RS5 will be N/A and until I hear different from the guy that has given me info on all important Audis over the last 2 years which I might add has always been SPOT ON, I will continue to believe it's N/A.

[artur777]

Read the first post in the thread...

Is your soursce reliable and at the decision-making level?

[G@Fourtitude]

I'll weigh in on this. My info is board level... as in Audi AG board level and Volkswagen Group board level. It is old, i.e. last summer, but I still believe it to be correct. N/A 4.2 with 450 hp.

The good news is he should know. The bad news is, if a decision were to be changed, he'd be one of the people changing the decision.

What I don't understand either from the first post is why they would be still playing with an N/A mule this late in the game. That really doesn't add up.

Everything I've heard of 4.0T FSI is that it will debut in the A8 and also go in the A7.

Sorry guys, as cool as a twin turbo RS 5 might be, it's not in the cards for now.

[MihokS5]

Guys, I just got back from a Q5 Audi launch in Ft. Lauderdale and was talking to a very reliable AOA rep who stated that the RS5 will in fact be twin turbo and is still a year away. He mentioned the same thin g about the NA test cars running around testing suspension, etc...

[p3u]

Guys, I just got back from a Q5 Audi launch in Ft. Lauderdale and was talking to a very reliable AOA rep who stated that the RS5 will in fact be twin turbo and is still a year away. He mentioned the same thin g about the NA test cars running around testing suspension, etc...


Nice! Someone has the same info I got, I think that shows we are on teh same page and a V8 4.0tt is on the way!

[p3u]

Artur777

Is your soursce reliable and at the decision-making level?


Info was from the engineering team testing the car, I think they know what they are designing :)

[Leadfoot]

In case it wasn't known by some, the peak torque handling figure of the new 7Speed S/Tronic is 406ft/lbs. The old RS6 which also used a 4.2tt (older technology I might add) had a peak of 415ft/lbs, so if Audi are to use a similar setup then they will have to limit the potential torque of the engine to stop it from damaging the gearbox.

I am still backing the idea it's a N/A 4.2FSI.

[artur777]

Info was from the engineering team testing the car, I think they know what they are designing :)

Agreed.
BTW - when will we first see 4.0TFSI engine?

[tvrfan]

i think at first in the new A8

[artur777]

In case it wasn't known by some, the peak torque handling figure of the new 7Speed S/Tronic is 406ft/lbs. The old RS6 which also used a 4.2tt (older technology I might add) had a peak of 415ft/lbs, so if Audi are to use a similar setup then they will have to limit the potential torque of the engine to stop it from damaging the gearbox.

I am still backing the idea it's a N/A 4.2FSI.

Leadfoot, please consider that it will be 4.0, not 4.2 and the torque will be lower.

Also please imagine:
- TFSI engine has a broad flat max torque in middle-revs with 15% reduction moving into the high-revvs zone
- you have 400 ft/lbs (actually it is 542 Nm) as the max torque of your engine somewhere from 2000 to 5500 rpms
- you have max revvs of 7200 rpm, and the torque is somewhere at the level of 350 ft/lbs
- using the formula HP = Torque (ft/lbs) * RPM / 5252 you get:

HP at 5500 rpm = 400 * 5000 /5252 = 380
HP at 7000 rpm = 350 * 7000 /5252 = 466

So you can easily get 450-470 HP with torque limitation to 400ft/lbs...

[Leadfoot]

Hey, don't get me wrong I want it to be Bi-Turboed as well but for this to happen the torque will have to be limited. That was all I was trying to show here.

[artur777]

Hey, don't get me wrong I want it to be Bi-Turboed as well but for this to happen the torque will have to be limited. That was all I was trying to show here.

I see it...
But is it possible to increase maxx revvs of turbo engines to 8000 rpm?
what is the limitation?
you can increase hp not only with torque bur rpm:cheers:

[Bogdan]

It is very possible that the RS5 would get the NA 4.2 engine with a few twicks and s-tronic, which combined with a smarter quattro system would make it faster and better handling car that the RS4. With a TT 4.0 the gap in performance between RS5 and ex RS4 would be very big (unless they limit the power a lot) and they will also upset the R8 sells.
With a NA S-tronic RS5 should be a great GT not a real beast, and they might keep the 4.0 TT to be introduced with the next RS4. Who knows, best bet is they have at least 2 different engine setups testing arround, and the final decision is not in yet.

[AndyBG]

4.2 will be! :D

[tvrfan]

It is very possible that the RS5 would get the NA 4.2 engine with a few twicks and s-tronic, which combined with a smarter quattro system would make it faster and better handling car that the RS4. With a TT 4.0 the gap in performance between RS5 and ex RS4 would be very big (unless they limit the power a lot) and they will also upset the R8 sells.
With a NA S-tronic RS5 should be a great GT not a real beast, and they might keep the 4.0 TT to be introduced with the next RS4. Who knows, best bet is they have at least 2 different engine setups testing arround, and the final decision is not in yet.

i think and hope that it will be 4.0 T with around 450hp. so the R8 wont have maybe 4.2l in future. the 5.2L will be the only one in the R8. so the gap between R8 and RS5 will be big enough.

[Leadfoot]

i think and hope that it will be 4.0 T with around 450hp. so the R8 wont have maybe 4.2l in future. the 5.2L will be the only one in the R8. so the gap between R8 and RS5 will be big enough.

I don't see Audi dropping the smaller R8 any time soon. They may change it's engine to the newer 4.0TFSi when it arrives in the A8 but given the world economy at present to drop the cheaper model in favour of the much more expensive version would be suicide.

[AndyBG]

Why would Audi do that...?

If Porsche can have 17 different versions of 911. why Audi can't have two different R8s... Plus, 4.0 T will present threat for 5.2..., and Audi don't want.

[tailpipe]

Yes, RS5 is not naturally aspirated; it has TT and DSG.

It would not be able to meet future emission requirements and deliver required power output without such a solution. It will be one sweet engine, but not as impressive as new 4.0-litre TFSI that is coming in a year's time.

[tvrfan]

Yes, RS5 is not naturally aspirated; it has TT and DSG.

It would not be able to meet future emission requirements and deliver required power output without such a solution. It will be one sweet engine, but not as impressive as new 4.0-litre TFSI that is coming in a year's time.

i dont understand you. the RS5 becomes a TT engine, ok. but isnt it the 4.0TFSI??? which engine then?

[AndyBG]

In other thread Tailpipe said 4.2 bi-turbo engine...

[tvrfan]

oh no, please audi dont make the old 4.2 engine TT. just take the 4.0 TFSI. then it would be perfect. a new car a new engine. not an old engine and a new car. that sucks. the 4.0 TFSI will be also better in eco..

[tailpipe]

oh no, please audi dont make the old 4.2 engine TT. just take the 4.0 TFSI. then it would be perfect. a new car a new engine. not an old engine and a new car. that sucks. the 4.0 TFSI will be also better in eco..

Sorry, it's 4.2-litre TT. New 4.0-litre TFSI doesn't arrive until 2010.

Only way to launch RS5 this year is to use development of existing 4.2-litre FSI block. RS5 will get 4.0-litre TFSI engine later, when RS4 arrives.

[tvrfan]

its the same crap that audi does with the S5 engine. at first the 4.2l then the 3.0 TFSI. its such a shame for the customers. i would feel so bad for them. audi has just to wait when this engine is ready and THEN release the RS5 with the 4.0 TFSI as well the RS4.

[tailpipe]

Look on the bright side: at least Chris Bangle hasn't left BMW to go to Audi.

[tvrfan]

lol yeah thats good. but i dont understand audi with its engine politic. it sucks. like i said in my post above.

[M3 owner]

Some1 here once posted a link 2 another Audi forum where there was a guy in Las Vegas claiming that the RS5 was at the Audi Dealership he works in & that the car was in fact TT. Do u remember that ? He was inviting ppl 2 go down & have a look at the car.

Also,guys here were claiming to have seen intercoolers hidden behind the 2 large air intakes on the front bumper of the RS5 mule.

I hope this info is right & I also hope that it’s not offered only in manual.

[Toto89]

its the same crap that audi does with the S5 engine. at first the 4.2l then the 3.0 TFSI. its such a shame for the customers. i would feel so bad for them. audi has just to wait when this engine is ready and THEN release the RS5 with the 4.0 TFSI as well the RS4.

It's still better than waiting for it two more years. Otherwise i'm pleased because Audi looks like it will start to change or upgrade engines in a lifecycle. I mean in S5 and probably RS5. I think this is the best way to have the car in time and having the latest engine as it is finished. I wished S6/8 V10s to get an update with the facelift, but nothing happened, Turbo engines are better in this aspect as well.

[AndyBG]

If it ''ends up'' with 4.2 bi-turbo, for me, it will be suprise. 4.2 N/A is what I was expecting, and still don't ''signing off'' completely that engine.

[Damienr8]

I think its going to be a NA. Or could be the 4.0L TT hehe

[artur777]

Tailpipe seems reasonable...

I think Audi will do with RS5 the same trick as with S5 - changing engines during the lifecycle.
They HAVE to introduce RS5 as fast as they can because the competitors havelaunched their cars already... But 4.0TFSI is not ready yet - so they have to launch it with good old 4.2FSI TT - modified from old RS6, I think.
After a year they will launch RS5 with 4.0TFSI when RS4 arrives with the new engine. They can't leave RS5 with olde engine while RS4 will havea new one.
Seems very logical and suits the current situation and their engine policies.

[AndyBG]

Yes, BUT, don't you think that it is little bit expensive to make engine (4.2 biturbo) just for one car, and for very short period of time...?

If that engine finds its place in RS 5, it will be for RS 5 only! That engine unit doesn't have any future within Audi, if 4.0 T is on the way indeed.

[tailpipe]

From what I heard the final choice of engine is not yet decided. Audi has certainly tested 4.2-litre twin turbo, as well as naturally aspirated engine from RS4 as a benchmark. If it had a choice, Audi would wait until new 4.0-litre TFSI is ready, but this new engine is still more than a year away. Audi believes it should launch RS5 sooner rather than later, so TT 4.2 is best alternative, but...

...everything has changed since the end of last year. Sales of high performance cars have crashed. Why rush to introduce a model that may not sell in high enough numbers to justify the investment?

Yes, 4.2-litre engine is on its last legs, but is still a great engine.

[Leadfoot]

This is getting more and more absurd, now the thinking is fort Audi to introduce a 4.2TFSi and then change it when the RS4 gets a 4.0TFSi.:doh: If Audi produce an engine that isn't currently in production for the RS5 then it will be the engine used in both it and the RS4, it is not cost effective to develop an engine with such a short shelf life, no way.

The logical answer if the 4.0TFSi engine isn't ready is to either hold off on the launch until it is ready or tweak the current engine and then change mid-cycle. Though the latter would be a first for any RS model as their respective life cycles are usually too short to warrant such measures. I am still betting on an early launch and a tweaked version of the current 4.2 with Gallardo LP560 goodies bolted on. A much higher rev limit than before (i.e. 8700rpm) with more power (450~460ps) and a higher torque figure (460~470Nm) but at a higher/peakier rev limit.

More in the spirit of the R8/LP560 but with the added bonus of practicality from it's 4 seater coupe body.

[artur777]

From what I heard the final choice of engine is not yet decided. Audi has certainly tested 4.2-litre twin turbo, as well as naturally aspirated engine from RS4 as a benchmark. If it had a choice, Audi would wait until new 4.0-litre TFSI is ready, but this new engine is still more than a year away. Audi believes it should launch RS5 sooner rather than later, so TT 4.2 is best alternative, but...

...everything has changed since the end of last year. Sales of high performance cars have crashed. Why rush to introduce a model that may not sell in high enough numbers to justify the investment?

Yes, 4.2-litre engine is on its last legs, but is still a great engine.

Very reasonable.
When does your source say Audi will decide on engine / launch of RS5?

[artur777]

This is getting more and more absurd, now the thinking is fort Audi to introduce a 4.2TFSi and then change it when the RS4 gets a 4.0TFSi.:doh: If Audi produce an engine that isn't currently in production for the RS5 then it will be the engine used in both it and the RS4, it is not cost effective to develop an engine with such a short shelf life, no way.

The logical answer if the 4.0TFSi engine isn't ready is to either hold off on the launch until it is ready or tweak the current engine and then change mid-cycle. Though the latter would be a first for any RS model as their respective life cycles are usually too short to warrant such measures. I am still betting on an early launch and a tweaked version of the current 4.2 with Gallardo LP560 goodies bolted on. A much higher rev limit than before (i.e. 8700rpm) with more power (450~460ps) and a higher torque figure (460~470Nm) but at a higher/peakier rev limit.

More in the spirit of the R8/LP560 but with the added bonus of practicality from it's 4 seater coupe body.

I didn't quite catch - do you agree that Audi will launch an engine and then change it for 4.0TFSI?

[tailpipe]

Very reasonable.
When does your source say Audi will decide on engine / launch of RS5?

Don't know.

[artur777]

Yes, BUT, don't you think that it is little bit expensive to make engine (4.2 biturbo) just for one car, and for very short period of time...?

If that engine finds its place in RS 5, it will be for RS 5 only! That engine unit doesn't have any future within Audi, if 4.0 T is on the way indeed.

Pls don't forget that RS6 already had this 4.2 Bi-Turbo and it was a nice engine. They could have tweaked it instead of 4.2 FSI NA !
It's the same amount of work - to modify the old Bi-Turbo or old NA engine - both are going into history sooner or later...

[AndyBG]

I just can't see the possibility for Audi to launch non FSI engine in a 2010 car...

[Qisha]

Dear Friends,

dont want to shorten up the discussion, but some hints:

-RS5 final specs are decided and approved by the executive board
-RS5 will have a unique RS car look
-no RS car will change specs during lifecycle
-RS4 B8 development request is not confirmed yet
-most likely the RS4 B8 will use the same base specs like the RS5
-at this time the market introduction will more likely be early 2010 than late 2009
-software engineering is under finalization (finish schedule: end of 1st quarter)
-finishing on drivetrain and suspension set up is following thereafter (finish schedule: 2nd quarter)
-final longrun tests finish up by the end of the 3rd quarter
-the only 4.2 forced induction engine is a diesel
-engine size as well as capacity will decrease prospectively
-performance figures and output will increase adequate

If you look in the future you can anticipate staged induction, Ionic injection and combined combustion- to name some catchwords.

Qisha

[Erik]

-no RS car will change specs during lifecycle


Thank you very much Qisha. :asian:

A question, does it mean an end to RS "Plus"? :vhmmm:

[Leadfoot]

Thanks Qisha for confirming what I already reckon.

So both RS models will use the same basic spec (i.e. engine, gearbox, quattro system and probably suspension design).

A question, when is the new 4.0TFSi being introduced in the A8, Ha-ha.

[KresoF1]

Dear Friends,

dont want to shorten up the discussion, but some hints:

-RS5 final specs are decided and approved by the executive board
-RS5 will have a unique RS car look
-no RS car will change specs during lifecycle
-RS4 B8 development request is not confirmed yet
-most likely the RS4 B8 will use the same base specs like the RS5
-at this time the market introduction will more likely be early 2010 than late 2009
-software engineering is under finalization (finish schedule: end of 1st quarter)
-finishing on drivetrain and suspension set up is following thereafter (finish schedule: 2nd quarter)
-final longrun tests finish up by the end of the 3rd quarter
-the only 4.2 forced induction engine is a diesel
-engine size as well as capacity will decrease prospectively
-performance figures and output will increase adequate

If you look in the future you can anticipate staged induction, Ionic injection and combined combustion- to name some catchwords.

Qisha

Thanks for very accurate reply. You confirmed info that I got from my NSU friend.

@everybody here-remember that strange memo that we saw almost 10months ago with model schaduale? Actually, that memo is very accurate...

[youry]

well the docuemtn was wrong then since it said it was goign to be a 450hp 4.2 V8, while
quisha says:

* engine size as well as capacity will decrease prospectively

This sounds like 4.0 TFSI for me...

[tvrfan]

i dont think there will be B8 RS4. some rumors where around here last year. i really damn hope for a B8 RS4. but we havent seen any rumors of it or testmules. :(

[tailpipe]

Dear Friends,

dont want to shorten up the discussion, but some hints:

-RS5 final specs are decided and approved by the executive board
-RS5 will have a unique RS car look
-no RS car will change specs during lifecycle
-RS4 B8 development request is not confirmed yet
-most likely the RS4 B8 will use the same base specs like the RS5
-at this time the market introduction will more likely be early 2010 than late 2009
-software engineering is under finalization (finish schedule: end of 1st quarter)
-finishing on drivetrain and suspension set up is following thereafter (finish schedule: 2nd quarter)
-final longrun tests finish up by the end of the 3rd quarter
-the only 4.2 forced induction engine is a diesel
-engine size as well as capacity will decrease prospectively
-performance figures and output will increase adequate

If you look in the future you can anticipate staged induction, Ionic injection and combined combustion- to name some catchwords.

Qisha

Almost right. Let me set the record straight.

RS5
- Existing 4.2 FSI developed to achieve 450 bhp will not meet Euro V emissions
- Therefore TT version under development to deliver required performance and emissions targets
- Original launch schedule: First shown: Frankfurt this Autumn. On sale: Early 2010
- But original plan (dating back to 2007) now redundant due to global recession and oil price shocks of last year: sales of thirsty V8 sports cars have collapsed
- Business case for RS5 reviewed November-December 2008
- Debate currently going on within Audi: do we launch with 4.2 FSI TT or wait until new 4.0 TFSI is ready?
- No one knows the answer to this yet, because a final production decision has not been taken

B8 RS4
Sorry, Qisha, you're wrong, RS4 development request HAS been made
Car discussed in detail last November- December
Original plan to put same TT 4.2 FSI engine of RS5 shelved: 14 mpg when driven hard is now unacceptable
Decision taken to use 4.0 litre TFSI V8 (Porsche has its eye on the same engine for Panamera and Cayenne)
Audi wants to launch it late 2010/ early 2011
Anyone who says it won't be produced is smoking dope (Sorry Tvrfan :harass: )

i can't say how i know this, but i haven't been wrong in anything I've said since 2004.

[Qisha]

Dear tailpipe,


- Existing 4.2 FSI developed to achieve 450 bhp will not meet Euro V emissions

is achieved


- Original launch schedule: First shown: Frankfurt this Autumn. On sale: Early 2010

at best


- Debate currently going on within Audi: do we launch with 4.2 FSI TT or wait until new 4.0 TFSI is ready?

:vhmmm:


- No one knows the answer to this yet, because a final production decision has not been taken

:nono:


Sorry, Qisha, you're wrong, RS4 development request HAS been made
Car discussed in detail last November- December

definately not, yet.


Original plan to put same TT 4.2 FSI engine of RS5 shelved: 14 mpg when driven hard is now unacceptable

there isnt any engine with this spec.


Decision taken to use 4.0 litre TFSI V8 (Porsche has its eye on the same engine for Panamera and Cayenne)

also no decision, no clearance yet.


Audi wants to launch it late 2010/ early 2011

optimistic

This thread is interesting... :jlol:

Qisha

[AndyBG]

If RS 4 will have same ''technic layout'' like RS 5, with no changes, than highly tuned 3.0 T is my next ''pick''.

What do you think about that?

[roadrunner]

i dont think there will be B8 RS4. some rumors where around here last year. i really damn hope for a B8 RS4. but we havent seen any rumors of it or testmules. :(

I'm sure that Audi will not leave the potential RS4 buyers in the rain. As much i look forward to the RS5, it is a car that does not fit into my life (family with kids).

I need & want an Avant, besides the RS tradition that started with an Avant (RS2) and has included Avant in every model generation since (RS2, B5 RS4, C5 RS6, B7 RS4, C6 RS6). And i f you have an Avant, a sedan comes in almost automatically.

[roadrunner]

...

This thread is interesting... :jlol:

Qisha

More than that :D

It's highly enjoyable as well.

Again we see how much passion is on this board :cheers:

[tvrfan]

If RS 4 will have same ''technic layout'' like RS 5, with no changes, than highly tuned 3.0 T is my next ''pick''.

What do you think about that?

3.0 TFSI with turbo and supercharger :hihi: :hahahehe:

[Leadfoot]

Qisha didn't say it would be a 4.2N/A, only that it wouldn't be a Forced Induction version of that engine. I openly agree with that opinion, there is no financial case for developing a Bi-turbo of this engine when there is already a 4.0TFSi completing final testing waiting in the wings if the decision was taken for the RS5 to use such an engine.

I know I have maintained that it will be a 4.2N/A engine and stick by this statement but everything I believe in suggests to me that this decision would be the wrong one in the current economical climate unless Audi have miraculously made it more powerful, more economic and with much lower emissions. You are 100% correct in saying that v8 engine car sales have died a death at the moment but as all of these cars being discussed are either 10/12 months away or even 18/24 months as is the case for the RS4 is it correct in placing present day issues that might be well by on the mend by then.

Originally I was told that the RS5 would have been launch mid'09 with the RS4 appearing some 4~6 months later, the reality is that the economic slowdown has forced a delay in the launch of both cars and probably allow for a rethink of which is the best approach to market these cars, though they are still low volume products they still cost a lot in development and need to sell to at least break even if not make a small profit.

I welcome this delay as what ever decision is taken on engine choice will not be a rushed one just to get the product to the market, those days of 'if will build it they will come and buy it' are long gone and have been replaced with 'what will it take to make them buy it'.

It's a consumers market and only the best products will survive.

[Leadfoot]

If RS 4 will have same ''technic layout'' like RS 5, with no changes, than highly tuned 3.0 T is my next ''pick''.

What do you think about that?

I know what it is but ain't telling. ;)




OK you twisted my arm, it a v18 12Ltr quad turbo running 18speed triple clutch S/Tronic with surgical rubber suspension. :lovl:

[AndyBG]

:D No, really!

If RS 4 is to get same engine as RS 5, and RS 4 is some time away, than only two possibilities are either 4.0 T or 3.0 T. I just can't imagine next RS 4 having 4.2 N/A engine...

[tvrfan]

:D No, really!

If RS 4 is to get same engine as RS 5, and RS 4 is some time away, than only two possibilities are either 4.0 T or 3.0 T. I just can't imagine next RS 4 having 4.2 N/A engine...

right :jlol:

[tailpipe]

:hahahehe:
Qisha, you know Audi's technical people. I know Audi's marketing people. Maybe they're not talking to each otherr!!!!!

[Rage]

Dear Qisha,

-the only 4.2 forced induction engine is a diesel

Therefore a 4.2TT is not a possiblity. That leaves NA 4.2 or 4.0TFSI

-engine size as well as capacity will decrease prospectively

Therefore more likely to be 4.0 rather than 4.2. Does that not leave the 4.0TFSI as the only possiblity? Or is there a 4.0NA engine?



btw great thread.

[artur777]

Dear Qisha,

-the only 4.2 forced induction engine is a diesel

Therefore a 4.2TT is not a possiblity. That leaves NA 4.2 or 4.0TFSI

-engine size as well as capacity will decrease prospectively

Therefore more likely to be 4.0 rather than 4.2. Does that not leave the 4.0TFSI as the only possiblity? Or is there a 4.0NA engine?



btw great thread.


Reasonable!

[artur777]

Dear Qisha,

due to your comments it is easy to expect that RS5 will be with 4.0TFSI.
THe crisis has delyaed th eRS5 intorduction and Audi has enough time to preapre its new engine.
4.0TFSI - will it obtain combined induction - SC and Turbo?

[Qisha]

Dear Rage,

sorry for not making myself clear. Engine size and everything that comes with it is a future aspect and does not apply to the RS5 to be exact.

Qisha

[tvrfan]

Dear Rage,

sorry for not making myself clear. Engine size and everything that comes with it is a future aspect and does not apply to the RS5 to be exact.

Qisha

can anyone PLEASE translate this understandable for an german guy. i dont understand what he means. :confused: :jlol:

[Bogdan]

I think it will be bi-turbo, as head of Quattro GmbH said, turbo will always be the AUdi way of making high performance cars (RS) where SC is for more comfortable drive sports cars (S). It will have both turbos on top of the engine between the V.
I also think that with RS6, TT RS, RS5 and R8 on the market, Quattro has it 's hands full and will not be seeing an B8 RS4 , more likely the B9 (facelift) will get an RS version, somewhere arround 2012. That's my 2 cents at least

[Leadfoot]

can anyone PLEASE translate this understandable for an german guy. i dont understand what he means. :confused: :jlol:

It's going to be a 4.2N/A high revving engine.

Read what is said,


sorry for not making myself clear. Engine size and everything that comes with it is a future aspect and does not apply to the RS5 to be exact.

[AndyBG]

We can switch this thread to general fun thread. :D

[Leadfoot]

We can switch this thread to general fun thread. :D


No, there is some serious discussions going on here and trust me the true is here if only people knew which ones to believe. ;)

[AndyBG]

All I can say is that I don't know witch engine will it be. I'm expecting 4.2 N/A, but I'm hoping for 4.0 T.

[tvrfan]

It's going to be a 4.2N/A high revving engine.

Read what is said,

Quisha??? what can you say us about that :jlol:

[KresoF1]

It's going to be a 4.2N/A high revving engine.

Read what is said,

Leadie,
Do you remember that we discussed this issue before? We agreed(with little help from our sources) that RS5 engine will be HDZ 4.2 FSI.

This thread is becoming something like deja vu of thread about R8(prior to its intro) in 2006. Lots of wrong infos then... Same thing now...

[Leadfoot]

Leadie,
Do you remember that we discussed this issue before? We agreed(with little help from our sources) that RS5 engine will be HDZ 4.2 FSI.

This thread is becoming something like deja vu of thread about R8(prior to its intro) in 2006. Lots of wrong infos then... Same thing now...

Agreed but I understand for the confusion, it's a fact the v8 sales have took a major down turn (though according to BMW last year was their second best) and most consumers are more concerned with resale, road tax, company car tax, etc than ever before. For people to see the introduction of another N/A v8 engine does seem to be going against the grain so to speak.

Until the final spec (all of it) is known it does sound to illogical choice to use.

I am imagining the engine specs to read along the lines of

HP = 450~460 @ 8600rpm
Nm = 460 @ 5800rpm
Co2 = 245~255
mpg = 20~22 average

[KresoF1]

Hmm...

450ps/8000rpm
450Nm/5500rpm(more then 400Nm at 2500rpm)
290g/km Co2 emissions(still good for EU5)

[Leadfoot]

Hmm...

450ps/8000rpm
450Nm/5500rpm(more then 400Nm at 2500rpm)
290g/km Co2 emissions(still good for EU5)

I would be happy with either your figures or mine. :D

Though to achieve the 450hp from just 8000rpm sounds incredible, I honestly would have thought that higher in the rev range would have been achieved. Also call me an optimist but I just hope the emissions will be better than what BMW have already done in the M3, maybe my figure was wishful thinking but I do expect it to better the 290 mark.

I suppose I am gauging my estimates on the Gallardo LP560 figures and trying to scale down.

[AndyBG]

Just for the record, BMWs 3.0l bi-turbo produces slightly less CO2 than Audis 3.0l supercharged engine, at least in 335i vs S4 comparation...

Audi = 225 g/km
BMW = 218 g/km

[Leadfoot]

Just for the record, BMWs 3.0l bi-turbo produces slightly less CO2 than Audis 3.0l supercharged engine, at least in 335i vs S4 comparation...

Audi = 225 g/km
BMW = 218 g/km

Well that should tell you just how much more efficient the Audi engine is ;), no awd for the BMW to lug around.

[AndyBG]

Well that should tell you just how much more efficient the Audi engine is ;), no awd for the BMW to lug around.

Hmm, that didn't crossed my mind... I wander what are the figures for the 335i xDrive...

.. :D I found it, its 232 g/km!

[p3u]

Why don't we just have a little bet! We can paypal some money to Erik to hold, we all chip in a few bucks, and who ever is right gets the pot! :applause:

I'll put down $100 on a 4.0tt setup. :D

[AndyBG]

:D Yeah right! So Qisha can make same fast bucks...! :D

[p3u]

lol, yeah. I'm confident in my information though... :incar:

[artur777]

I have finally read all the thread again to put some colnclusions

Evident that RS5 will be 4.2 NA from the opinions of respected memebers.
I only hope that this will be 4.2NA with modifications from R8 V10 5.2FSI and it will be high-reving with 8500-8700rpms.
Mated to S-Tronic the car will be realy very fast.
I also hope it will be not heavier than S5..

[Leadfoot]

I have finally read all the thread again to put some colnclusions

Evident that RS5 will be 4.2 NA from the opinions of respected memebers.
I only hope that this will be 4.2NA with modifications from R8 V10 5.2FSI and it will be high-reving with 8500-8700rpms.
Mated to S-Tronic the car will be realy very fast.
I also hope it will be not heavier than S5..

Sounds good to me. ;)

[AndyBG]

I will repeat my self all over again. I'm expecting 4.2 N/A, but wish for 4.0 T...

[tailpipe]

I'll bet against NA 4.2.

No future RS model without forced induction.

[Leadfoot]

Each person has given their opinion on what will be the chosen engine.

Frankly I have given up caring. What will be will be.

[tvrfan]

I'll bet against NA 4.2.

No future RS model without forced induction.

+ 1 :jlol:

[Erik]

4.2 N/A will make a lot of people (with orders) disappointed.

I don't know what to think any longer. :vhmmm: This thread gave me TOO MUCH information. :argue:

I WISH the engine was a 4.0 TT (Just WOW! Even the combination of the numbers and the letters looks sexy) and I presume such an engine would produce better emission figures in the EU driving cycle (but not in real life however...).


The idea of sending ME money didn't sound that bad after all...

[tvrfan]

4.2 N/A will make a lot of people (with orders) disappointed.

I don't know what to think any longer. :vhmmm: This thread gave me TOO MUCH information. :argue:

I WISH the engine was a 4.0 TT (Just WOW! Even the combination of the numbers and the letters looks sexy) and I presume such an engine would produce better emission figures in the EU driving cycle (but not in real life however...).


The idea of sending ME money didn't sound that bad after all...

its not over yet. it can still be the 4.0 TFSI. i hope so.

[artur777]

Leadie,
Do you remember that we discussed this issue before? We agreed(with little help from our sources) that RS5 engine will be HDZ 4.2 FSI.

This thread is becoming something like deja vu of thread about R8(prior to its intro) in 2006. Lots of wrong infos then... Same thing now...

Kreso F1,

could you point out the difference between old RS4 V8 and new HDZ V8?
What is it - HDZ in terms of engine's features?

[KresoF1]

HDZ(HochDrehZahl) Concept is Audi's updated concept of high reving engines. First engine is 5.2 FSI in R8 V10 and Gallardo LP560-4. Goals are more efficient combustion, free reving without any friction, more torque at lower revs(peak torque is at high revs but, 80% if turque maximum is available from 2500rpm). Emission friendly(EU4 for sure, new cats will allow EU5).

If you look at current R8 4.2 FSI its potentional is at 450ps/8000rpm and 450Nm/5500rpm with full HDZ concept aplied.

[AndyBG]

HDZ is german short for high revving engine...

[Leadfoot]

As if 8200rpm wasn't enough already, maybe to achieve that status it needs to be about another 500revs higher.

[QuattroFun]

4.2 N/A will make a lot of people (with orders) disappointed.

I don't know what to think any longer. :vhmmm: This thread gave me TOO MUCH information. :argue:

I WISH the engine was a 4.0 TT (Just WOW! Even the combination of the numbers and the letters looks sexy) and I presume such an engine would produce better emission figures in the EU driving cycle (but not in real life however...).


The idea of sending ME money didn't sound that bad after all...

Well, some loyalists disappointed for sure but - on the other hand - many others happy indeed. Overall, the B7 RS4 was the best selling RS car ever and also the one generally best liked and regarded as most competent as well. Play it again Audi with the RS5 - only even better this time around with all the new high tech

[artur777]

HDZ(HochDrehZahl) Concept is Audi's updated concept of high reving engines. First engine is 5.2 FSI in R8 V10 and Gallardo LP560-4. Goals are more efficient combustion, free reving without any friction, more torque at lower revs(peak torque is at high revs but, 80% if turque maximum is available from 2500rpm). Emission friendly(EU4 for sure, new cats will allow EU5).

If you look at current R8 4.2 FSI its potentional is at 450ps/8000rpm and 450Nm/5500rpm with full HDZ concept aplied.

why do you say 450ps at 8000rpm instead of saying for example 470ps at 8500rpm? 5.2FSI has its peak at 8700 rpm...

[KresoF1]

...and max. power of R8 5.2 FSI is 525ps/8000rpm. 8700rpm is peak value that can be reached only in first three gears. For fourth, fifth and sixth max. revs are 8450rpm.

[Ruergard]

...and max. power of R8 5.2 FSI is 525ps/8000rpm. 8700rpm is peak value that can be reached only in first three gears. For fourth, fifth and sixth max. revs are 8450rpm.

Interesting, didn't know this. Is is the same for the LP-560? And why is this? A mechanical explanation or did they just don't bother...? :mech:

[artur777]

...and max. power of R8 5.2 FSI is 525ps/8000rpm. 8700rpm is peak value that can be reached only in first three gears. For fourth, fifth and sixth max. revs are 8450rpm.

I see.
Useful info.

5.2FSI V10 is 525ps, so we have 101ps / liter
4.2FSI V8 will be about 425-430ps then.
How is it possible to increase V8 efficiency over V10 level if both of them are HDZ?

[KresoF1]

Again, you forgot LP560-4 engine which is basically the same engine as in R8 V10-just different ehxaust and ECU mapping. 560ps/8000rpm=107.6ps/L

NOW add that to 4163ccm and you will get 448ps... Some minor tuning=450ps from 4163ccm engine.

[artur777]

Again, you forgot LP560-4 engine which is basically the same engine as in R8 V10-just different ehxaust and ECU mapping. 560ps/8000rpm=107.6ps/L

NOW add that to 4163ccm and you will get 448ps... Some minor tuning=450ps from 4163ccm engine.

448 ps is not that much...
That means that C63 will be faster because its RWD against RS5 Quattro...
RS5 needs to have 475 ps at least

[KresoF1]

Faster were? In straight line? Of course since it is faster in straight line then R8 4.2 FSI... On the track? Of course NOT since M3 is faster then C63 and even RS6 Limousine is faster on the track...

RS5 point won't be straight line speed. Excellent handling and awsome traction will be...

[artur777]

Faster were? In straight line? Of course since it is faster in straight line then R8 4.2 FSI... On the track? Of course NOT since M3 is faster then C63 and even RS6 Limousine is faster on the track...

RS5 point won't be straight line speed. Excellent handling and awsome traction will be...

M3 is faster than R8 V8 in straight line... I have watched some races
C63 is even faster...

on the track M3 will be faster than RS5 as it is more or less even with R8 V8, and C63 is not far behind...
RS5 will be introduced 203 years after its sompetitors and will be slower in straight line and on the track... not that good... what we have - only to like its handling and traction...
what are your arguments?

[KresoF1]

My arguments?

Hmm... First, about R8 4.2 FSI... Stop using very strange 8.04min Ring time by Sport Auto as a reference since Sasch Bert did 8.01min with standard Pirelli P Zero tires in mid MY08 R8 4.2 FSI with Magnetic Ride. With Corsas that could translate in about 7.54min-7.53min time... Also, on Hockenheim R8 4.2 FSI time with standard tires(1:13,4min) is more then 2s faster then C63 with 030 Performance Package and 19"(1:15,7min).

M3 Coupe... Very good car IMHO. Just why are you so sure that it is faster then R8 4.2 FSI? You watched some races? In straight line? Come on! For God sake who is buying an R8 and race against C63 or M3 in straight line. Ok... Some die hard BMW fans...

My source told me that RS5 will be app. 1s faster on Hockenheim then old RS4. That translates in to 1:14,4min time... So, more or less the same time as M3. Just one difference M3 is equiped with Cup+ tires...

[Leadfoot]

I imagine that the RS5 will indeed be 1s per lap quicker than the old RS4, but this will be on different rubber with the RS4 on Corsas and the RS5 on P-Zeros. Given the technology differences, chassis design and additional power will probably equate to nearer 2s on like for like rubber.

Another thing, though the R8 and Lp560 produce peak power at 8000rpm I would expect the smaller capacity RS5 to produce it's peak a little higher, closer to BMW's M3 in fact.

@Artur777
Why do you reckon it will be any slower than the C63, remember that the RS5 will be using S/Tronic and is ultra high revving, so though it may lose a little at the start of each gear it will regain lost ground as it nears the end of each gear with this effect being noticable in the higher gears.

[Toto89]

Ohh guys, Audi won't make the mistake what BMW did, they won't test a car for two years and then release it while not being faster than it's competitors. I mean M3 was hardly faster than RS4, the difference was so little that in some test RS4 was even faster! RS5 will be faster than the cars Audi wants to beat.

On the other hand: 12 pages of discussion without any considerable result?? Guys, you have too much free time...:jlol:

[artur777]

My arguments?

Hmm... First, about R8 4.2 FSI... Stop using very strange 8.04min Ring time by Sport Auto as a reference since Sasch Bert did 8.01min with standard Pirelli P Zero tires in mid MY08 R8 4.2 FSI with Magnetic Ride. With Corsas that could translate in about 7.54min-7.53min time... Also, on Hockenheim R8 4.2 FSI time with standard tires(1:13,4min) is more then 2s faster then C63 with 030 Performance Package and 19"(1:15,7min).

M3 Coupe... Very good car IMHO. Just why are you so sure that it is faster then R8 4.2 FSI? You watched some races? In straight line? Come on! For God sake who is buying an R8 and race against C63 or M3 in straight line. Ok... Some die hard BMW fans...

My source told me that RS5 will be app. 1s faster on Hockenheim then old RS4. That translates in to 1:14,4min time... So, more or less the same time as M3. Just one difference M3 is equiped with Cup+ tires...

I saw some races of M3 and R8, and M3 was always a little bit faster... C63 is a torque machine and that's its success in straight line - I can compare it to M5 in terms of acceleration. R8 is always faster 0-60 due t quattro, and then M3 and C63 are going ahead. Usually they are even at 1/4 mile with R8 being a little bit solwer at this time. May be R8 was not the best one..

About track - what tires did you mention when said that RS5 would be 1s quicker - PZero or Corsas?
About M3: some people say that it is capable of 8-00 mins dead with good tires and driver...

KresoF1, look - I think that RS5 will be a very nice car.
But I don;t want it to repeat mistakes of M3 - NA high-consumptive motor, low torque in low revvs, hard to tune and etc.. though it seems to be NA, we will see a car very similar to M3... the difference will be quattro and may be even more high-revving motor

[artur777]

I imagine that the RS5 will indeed be 1s per lap quicker than the old RS4, but this will be on different rubber with the RS4 on Corsas and the RS5 on P-Zeros. Given the technology differences, chassis design and additional power will probably equate to nearer 2s on like for like rubber.

Another thing, though the R8 and Lp560 produce peak power at 8000rpm I would expect the smaller capacity RS5 to produce it's peak a little higher, closer to BMW's M3 in fact.

@Artur777
Why do you reckon it will be any slower than the C63, remember that the RS5 will be using S/Tronic and is ultra high revving, so though it may lose a little at the start of each gear it will regain lost ground as it nears the end of each gear with this effect being noticable in the higher gears.

C63 is a torque machine and is easily even to M5 - doing 1/4 mile in low-to-mid 12's.
With ECU tuning and exhaust C63 can do 1/4 mile in high 11's !

No way for RS5 to be that quick - I think it will be a little bit faster than R8 V8

[RXBG]

even with 480 hp from a NA motor the torque will be about the same as the RS4 if the engine is NA. as such i agree that it will not be as fast as a C63 in a straight line after 100 km/h unless it has a DSG. were it to get a TT motor- that would be a different story altogether. i am still torn- my gut/sources say it will be NA. my heart wishes it were TT. i think the time is ripe for a replacement for the current NA 4.2- in both A6/8 and R8 applications. a two-stage tunable 4.0TT would fit perfectly with A, S, and RS version of different audis. it would require phase-out removal of the V8 R8 because the RS5 with such a motor (especially with DSG)would be faster- and quite close on a track.

[Leadfoot]

I would guess that shortly after the RS5 is released the R8v8 will receive the new engine from the RS5.

Much as I love the R8v8, it's performance has been the one thing holding it back from greatness and this is something a ultra high revving V8 might just bring.

P.S.

Don't rule out the RS5 surprising us with it's straightline performance, especially combined with the uprated S/Tronic.

[KresoF1]

R8 4.2 FSI is great car. Better sportscar then ANY current or forthcoming Audi with front engine. Want a better and even more capable true sportscar? Answer is R8 5.2 FSI.

[Bogdan]

Guys, it really doesn't matter that much if RS5 will be faster than M3 or C63. Have you ever been inside one of those two? For me, there isn't a match against the RS4 interior and the hole package in general, the build quality, especially compared to C63 is 2 classes up. And , let's not forget that both C63 or M3 are faster when perfectly dry outside, if rain or snow comes into equation then....bye bye RWD.

[biker14]

Hi all,

This is my first post here, I have been following all the news I can find on the net about the forthcoming RS5 and this forum is by far the best, with the most knowledgeable people ever.

Just to add to the ongoing R8 vs M3 discussion, last week a local mag put Pedro Lamy, ex F1 driver and current LM series Peugeot 908 driver, on board both cars around the Estoril track and the he lapped in 2.00.32 with the R8 and 2.03.10 with the M3. Don't know which tyres they used, maybe the OEM ones?

PC

[AndyBG]

... he lapped in 2.00.32 with the R8 and 2.03.10 with the M3. Don't know which tyres they used, maybe the OEM ones?

PC

Logical outcome...

[tailpipe]

After re-reading Qisha's post, I realize that he and I may have been saying the same thing, albeit from different start points.

I originally said that I had heard RS5 would get a bi-turbo development of existing 4.2 litre V8 and that RS4 would get 4.0 litre engine, but it didn't make sense to have two different engines in the same model (as with the S4). I had also heard that Audi was getting cold feet because of declining car sales. Therefore, it was safe to assume that Audi would wait to see which way the market went before committing. So it was possible that they would delay RS5 and launch it close to RS4 with same engine.

This is exactly what they have done. And Qisha's post confirms it. It now looks like the RS5 will be the first Audi model to get new 4.0 litre TFSI. This is fantastic news! Though we will still need to wait until probably mid-2010, it means that they are much further ahead with the 4.0-litre engine development than I imagined. Better still, once such an engine is optimized for RS5 chassis, slotting it in the saloon and Avant A4 will be quite straightforward. My guess is that it will not only obliterate M3 in a straight line, but will offer much better economy and emissions. I expect that the RS5 is going to go on a major diet of aluminium and carbon fibre. My only fear is the cost: will we get change out of £60,000?

[deveraux]

what is with the D4 A8 which will debut end of the year, i always thought that the 4.0 TFSI will debut in that car?

[tailpipe]

Yes. RS5 not due until mid-2010.

[Leadfoot]

Tailpipe,

I must be reading a different post from Qisha than yourself, I don't see any hints that the engine will be the 4.0TFSi. In fact most of what was said has to do with future models, the RS5 according to what I have been told has been signed off and guess what, it's not the one above.

[artur777]

Tailpipe,

I must be reading a different post from Qisha than yourself, I don't see any hints that the engine will be the 4.0TFSi. In fact most of what was said has to do with future models, the RS5 according to what I have been told has been signed off and guess what, it's not the one above.

You are right, but the question:
will RS5 be competitive to its prime competitors using the not so new engine technology?
and will it be competitive in terms of fuel consumption and co2 emissions?
will it be that good that we all want to see it?

And the answer is "may be", but not "yes for sure"...

[The Pretender]

You are right, but the question:
will RS5 be competitive to its prime competitors using the not so new engine technology?
and will it be competitive in terms of fuel consumption and co2 emissions?
will it be that good that we all want to see it?

And the answer is may be, but not yes for sure...
I say 3x NO.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

You are right, but the question:
will RS5 be competitive to its prime competitors using the not so new engine technology?
and will it be competitive in terms of fuel consumption and co2 emissions?
will it be that good that we all want to see it?

And the answer is "may be", but not "yes for sure"...

Have faith, Audi didn't release the RS6 without making sure it was better than the competition, even though some people doubt it would ever best the mighty M5. The same will be true for the RS5 and without knowing the technology used how can you say it's not ground breaking.

The emissions and economy are the two things that are really up for debate and yes I really want to see it.

[The Pretender]

I see the Nissan GT-R as a prime competitor.
Front engine, 4WD, Double clutch gearbox.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l25/HybridMT/June0088095.jpg

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

Well many of us don't really see the GTR as a true competitor to either the RS5, M3, C63, etc. It's design goal was and has always been to take on the Porsche Turbo, the fact that Nissan knew it wouldn't sell at Porsche prices even though it would hammer it meant that they ending up pricing it at the RS5 price point. Bad luck for the competition, good luck for us.

I doubt Audi looked at anything other than the M3, C63 and maybe the IS-F when developing the RS5, but if I heard through the grapevine that they also looked at the Nissan then I would be very optimistic about the RS5 indeed.

[The Pretender]

but if I heard through the grapevine that they also looked at the Nissan then I would be very optimistic about the RS5 indeed.
Not with a N/A engine under the bonnet.
A tuned TT RS will wipe the floor with it.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

Not with a N/A engine under the bonnet.
A tuned TT RS will wipe the floor with it.

Jarod.

First things first, lets beat the rest of the competition around it and then lets take on the GTR.:D

[Z07]

TT and DSG is what I've heard.
I read that Audi backed away from a high power capable DSG because the market didn't warrant the $40-100m budget, ref. the R8 Edmunds test:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=141087?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..1 .*#10


When we ask about a dual-clutch transmission for the R8's future, our Ingolstadt contact says, "The problem is, the sheer investment required to make the S tronic dual-clutch isn't viable for the R8 business case." Apparently the investment for a dual-clutch transmission compatible with the V10's torque and midengine packaging could be anywhere between $40 million and $100 million, so Audi is holding off until the worldwide economy finally gets its pants back on. So, we live with the R tronic until the second-generation R8 in 2013 or so. It can get its shifts at speed down to one-tenth of a second, but it is simply unsophisticated as an instrument for all-around driving.



I appreciate that the RS5 is not mid-engined but the torque will probably better the R8 V10 if it's a TT.

[tvrfan]

a higher torque capable DSG is not coming yet for R8 right, but for RS5 it will come (B8 RS4......) maybe in future audi will built more high performance cars in R-range so then a DSG will make sense.

[Leadfoot]

The torque limit for the new 7sp S/Tronic is 550Nm (408ft/lbs), so I doubt Audi will spend more to make it capable coping with more than that. Originally I was told/hinted that the RS5 would have a peak torque figure of close on 500Nm and I doubt things will have changed much from then.

[Z07]

The torque limit for the new 7sp S/Tronic is 550Nm (408ft/lbs), so I doubt Audi will spend more to make it capable coping with more than that. Originally I was told/hinted that the RS5 would have a peak torque figure of close on 500Nm and I doubt things will have changed much from then.
That's about 370lbft, which seems a little low for a turbocharged 4.0 but probably about right for a de-Gallardoized V10. 500bhp/370lbft, maybe.

[tvrfan]

hmmm, 4.0 TFSI 460 PS TT High REV 540 NM sounds right. :D

[p3u]

I can't belive how many have post on this subject! All I wanted to do was post the facts, form the guys testing and designing the car, not cause speculation! lol

[AndyBG]

RS 5 is something that we are waiting from Audi for so many years... That's the reason.

[The Pretender]

I can't belive how many have post on this subject! All I wanted to do was post the facts, form the guys testing and designing the car, not cause speculation! lol
I don'y care what Audi will put in, wouldn't buy one anyway.
Would choose a TT-RS over it 24/7.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

I don'y care what Audi will put in, wouldn't buy one anyway.
Would choose a TT-RS over it 24/7.

Jarod.

I was a potential RS5 customer up until 6-8 months ago but now I feel it's a wiser decision to downscale and depending on what price the TT/RS is it could be my next ride.

[artur777]

The crisis changes our buying motives...
Myself - I also close to think that it's better time to postpone buying an expensive car until we see the light out of the tunnel....

[The Pretender]

The crisis changes our buying motives...
Myself - I also close to think that it's better time to postpone buying an expensive car until we see the light out of the tunnel....
My choice is not the price but my choice is based on the engine.
R5T is the only real Audi engine, Audi put them self on the map with it, like quattro.
And above that, the TT is the better looking car over the A5 IMHO.

Jarod.

[tailpipe]

Trading down...
Postponing buying a new car...
Concerned about the image we present to our bosses, friends and environmentalists...

This is why we need Q cars. Q = wolves in sheep's clothing. Q also = Quattro and Audi. Audi makes great Q cars (except Q5 and Q7). I don't want an RS5. I need practicality, I need a frugal V8, but most of all, I need a car that goes like hell but looks like an innocent and harmless family car. What I want it in an RS4, please.

Until Audi produce such a thing, it is the Golf GTI for me. Hopefully, by the time the next RS4 arrives the Recession will be over.

[The Pretender]

The TT RS give me enough practicality. I don't like a V8, but most of all, I need a car that goes like hell.

Jarod.

[Z07]

I forgot that I'd actually seen clips of this car testing on the 'ring. It's definitely a V8 due to its engine note.

[p3u]

It's definitely a V8 due to its engine note.


I don't think that is in question, lol.

[Z07]

I don't think that is in question, lol.
I suggested it might be a V10 earlier. I was being retarded as I'd already heard the clip.

[Hy Octane]

We have a Winner!!
Qisha.. once again. When in doubt, go to the source. he hasnt been wrong yet..

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17894

[AndyBG]

My hint was 4.2 N/A... Can't believe there want be B8 RS 4...

[tailpipe]

I don't believe this. Whatever Quattro Gmbh people are saying, Audi's Central marketing people are saying something different.

Compared to the B7 RS4, the RS6 has been relatively disappointing because of its weight, thirst and cost. Audi needs a B8 RS4 to counter the negative RS criticism. Moreover, with only a V6 S4 it needs a V8 RS4 unless it wishes to lose sales to the C63, M3 and IS-F which are all doing remarkably well.

I stand by my Audi marketing conversation at Christmas and say RS4 with 4.0-litre TFSI. I didn't specifically discuss RS5, so can only predict based on what I do know. Based on engine tech developments, 4.2 N/A seems very unlikely to me.

[RXBG]

i still believe it will be a N/A V8 but with better fuel economy, DSG to help with speed and economy, and even more use of aluminium both in the engine and body. this engine will basically be a gen II RS4 engine. maybe 460 hp and 330 of torque.

won't be a C63 killer in the straights but it will kill it in the bends and on the track.

[chewym]

I don't believe this. Whatever Quattro Gmbh people are saying, Audi's Central marketing people are saying something different.

Compared to the B7 RS4, the RS6 has been relatively disappointing because of its weight, thirst and cost. Audi needs a B8 RS4 to counter the negative RS criticism. Moreover, with only a V6 S4 it needs a V8 RS4 unless it wishes to lose sales to the C63, M3 and IS-F which are all doing remarkably well.

I stand by my Audi marketing conversation at Christmas and say RS4 with 4.0-litre TFSI. I didn't specifically discuss RS5, so can only predict based on what I do know. Based on engine tech developments, 4.2 N/A seems very unlikely to me.

The B7 RS4 had the same fuel economy as the B7 S4, in both cases the fuel economy was very poor for the size/power. The S4 was extremely poor for its power, the RS4 was better because it had 80 horsepower with the same fuel economy, thanks to FSI. The C6 RS6 has almost identical fuel economy as the C6 S6. The RS6 has better fuel economy than current M5/E63, way more power and performance.

The C6 RS6 has only slightly worse fuel economy than the B7 RS4. Too many people freaked out about 580 horsepower and assumed that it had extra bad fuel economy, like worse than the 500 horsepower M5/E63, while it's actually the opposite.

[AndyBG]

I still really don't see the point of talking about economy in cars with 450+ hp...

[RXBG]

I still really don't see the point of talking about economy in cars with 450+ hp...

b/c in an emissions/environment sensitive world efficiency is the newest thing to brag about, in addition to power, when you spend cashola on cars like these. to a lesser extent it also adds to a manufacturer's CO2 fleet emissions total requirements.


witness the newest bentley, karma, tesla, F1 and le mans going diesel and hybrid.... ironically all of this at a time when the theory of global warming is losing ground by the year. now many sources are saying we are actually going into a 200 year COLD spell!!!! :doh:

that's why it matters. it is a question of quality engineeering also. you have more credibility and bragging rights when you say your car is faster, better handling, and gets better gas mileage.... it gives the whole car improved cachet. i.e. more went into it, more refinement, more tech.

..............put another way. don't you like your women thin AND smart?

[AndyBG]

...put another way. don't you like your women thin AND smart?

:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: Not to smart...

[tailpipe]

b/c in an emissions/environment sensitive world efficiency is the newest thing to brag about, in addition to power, when you spend cashola on cars like these. to a lesser extent it also adds to a manufacturer's CO2 fleet emissions total requirements.


witness the newest bentley, karma, tesla, F1 and le mans going diesel and hybrid.... ironically all of this at a time when the theory of global warming is losing ground by the year. now many sources are saying we are actually going into a 200 year COLD spell!!!! :doh:

that's why it matters. it is a question of quality engineeering also. you have more credibility and bragging rights when you say your car is faster, better handling, and gets better gas mileage.... it gives the whole car improved cachet. i.e. more went into it, more refinement, more tech.

..............put another way. don't you like your women thin AND smart?

Nice post.

[Leadfoot]

I don't believe this. Whatever Quattro Gmbh people are saying, Audi's Central marketing people are saying something different.

Compared to the B7 RS4, the RS6 has been relatively disappointing because of its weight, thirst and cost. Audi needs a B8 RS4 to counter the negative RS criticism. Moreover, with only a V6 S4 it needs a V8 RS4 unless it wishes to lose sales to the C63, M3 and IS-F which are all doing remarkably well.

I stand by my Audi marketing conversation at Christmas and say RS4 with 4.0-litre TFSI. I didn't specifically discuss RS5, so can only predict based on what I do know. Based on engine tech developments, 4.2 N/A seems very unlikely to me.

The RS5 is a 4.2FSi and not 4.0TFSi, as for the RS4 when it comes and it is coming, I don't know the engine specs for it because it's not be finalised yet.

Oh, and no the RS6 hasn't been a disappointment, the RS6 is like Ronsel wood stain it does exactly what it says on the tin and that is beat the competition into a pulp all the while providing an comfortable and luxurious enviorment to transport you and your family. Given the car that quattroGmbH had to work with I think they did an amazingly great job.

[Bogdan]

My thoughts exactly regarding the RS6, excellent car, just bad timing. At this point with the economy, whatever engine would they have put into the RS6, the sells numbers would have been the same. Just a bit too expensive for these days.
If they want to keep the same road as before ( B7 RS4 beat the crap out of the M3 E46 when it arrived), then the next RS4 must be trully something special in order the embarase the M3 V8, and I don't see that happening with nothing else but forced induction, FSI , light materials, smaller engine. I think 4.0 TFSI is the best hope, just I pray that the TFSI will stand for bi-turbo NOT supercharged.

[RXBG]

i suspect the RS4 will have the exact same engine as the RS5- NA 460 hp V8. with DSG. and better fuel economy than the old engine. torque won't change much, though.

[tailpipe]

Oh, and no the RS6 hasn't been a disappointment, the RS6 is like Ronsel wood stain it does exactly what it says on the tin and that is beat the competition into a pulp all the while providing an comfortable and luxurious enviorment to transport you and your family. Given the car that quattroGmbH had to work with I think they did an amazingly great job.

Let's try and keep the discussion as objective as possible. RS6 has been slated by most UK motoring journalists for being too heavy and ponderous. They accuse it of lacking the sharpness of its predecessor and that of the RS4. Some said its V10 engine was overkill. Others attacked the price tag, which takes it out of mainstream contention. Net result is a still a very accomplished car, but one with only limited appeal to those with deep pockets. Sales numbers appear to support this view. Sorry, but that's the truth.

So Audi needs an RS car with more mainstream appeal. That is the job of the RS5 and RS4. The last RS4 was superb. The only real issue is that real world consumption of 14-18 mpg and a small fuel tank meant frequent stops on trans-European trips. I couldn't believe it. This was a practical issue not an environmental one.

As RXBG has also noted, since the last RS4 was conceived, times have changed. The environment has become a serious problem. We're all under pressure to do our bit. In addition to recycling supermarket bags and energy efficient light bulbs, I also feel a need to drive a car that delivers at least 30 mpg and outputs less than 200g of CO2 per km. I am not alone.

For this reason, a naturally aspirated 4.2 V8 in the RS5 doesn't make sense. Smaller capacity engines with turbos does. This is why the new 3.0-litre engine S4 is so clever. It is supposed to deliver 30% less fuel consumption than previous version.

True enthusiasts still want a V8. So the new 4.0 litre TFSI would be an ideal solution for both the RS5 and the RS4. It ticks all the boxes. Whatever Audi delivers, the RS5 will be a great car. But without giving it the eco-credentials it needs its appeal will be narrower.

[AndyBG]

... They accuse it of lacking the sharpness of its predecessor ...

Little bit of topic, but I don't remember that anyone ever said for C5 RS 6 to be ''sharp'', and for that matter C6 RS 6 is far ahead off its predecessor.

[artur777]

Let's try and keep the discussion as objective as possible. RS6 has been slated by most UK motoring journalists for being too heavy and ponderous. They accuse it of lacking the sharpness of its predecessor and that of the RS4. Some said its V10 engine was overkill. Others attacked the price tag, which takes it out of mainstream contention. Net result is a still a very accomplished car, but one with only limited appeal to those with deep pockets. Sales numbers appear to support this view. Sorry, but that's the truth.

So Audi needs an RS car with more mainstream appeal. That is the job of the RS5 and RS4. The last RS4 was superb. The only real issue is that real world consumption of 14-18 mpg and a small fuel tank meant frequent stops on trans-European trips. I couldn't believe it. This was a practical issue not an environmental one.

As RXBG has also noted, since the last RS4 was conceived, times have changed. The environment has become a serious problem. We're all under pressure to do our bit. In addition to recycling supermarket bags and energy efficient light bulbs, I also feel a need to drive a car that delivers at least 30 mpg and outputs less than 200g of CO2 per km. I am not alone.

For this reason, a naturally aspirated 4.2 V8 in the RS5 doesn't make sense. Smaller capacity engines with turbos does. This is why the new 3.0-litre engine S4 is so clever. It is supposed to deliver 30% less fuel consumption than previous version.

True enthusiasts still want a V8. So the new 4.0 litre TFSI would be an ideal solution for both the RS5 and the RS4. It ticks all the boxes. Whatever Audi delivers, the RS5 will be a great car. But without giving it the eco-credentials it needs its appeal will be narrower.

I agree with you.
You all will see that NA 4.2 engine is obsolete and RS5 sales will be low...
Look at 911 Turbo - 3.6L only and what performance and fuel consumption figures! They are excellent! I am not with Audi here...

[tailpipe]

I am an Audi fan. I admire the brand's integrity and value. But I refuse to be blind to its faults. Some of the things it does are blatantly led by marketing priorities - the need to shift more cars at a higher premium - than to genuinely engineer the best car in a given category.

Apple did not return to form until it stopped producing computers priced to sell and started producing superior technology. Superior tech is how Audi has eclipsed BMW. I just don't want Audi to lose sight of what made it successful in its quest for global domination.

The original FSI V8 remains a fantastic engine. But it is plain common sense that reducing the bore and turbocharging it is the only way to deliver better fuel economy and performance.

[Leadfoot]

Let's try and keep the discussion as objective as possible. RS6 has been slated by most UK motoring journalists for being too heavy and ponderous. They accuse it of lacking the sharpness of its predecessor and that of the RS4. Some said its V10 engine was overkill. Others attacked the price tag, which takes it out of mainstream contention. Net result is a still a very accomplished car, but one with only limited appeal to those with deep pockets. Sales numbers appear to support this view. Sorry, but that's the truth.

So Audi needs an RS car with more mainstream appeal. That is the job of the RS5 and RS4. The last RS4 was superb. The only real issue is that real world consumption of 14-18 mpg and a small fuel tank meant frequent stops on trans-European trips. I couldn't believe it. This was a practical issue not an environmental one.

The only thing wrong with the RS6 is that things have changed dramatically both environmentally and financially from when it designers put pen to paper, the motoring press have always picked fault with the RS6 be it this model or the last and for the exact same reasons, it's always classed as heavy and excessive in output. Remember the last RS6 had 450hp when the M5 had 400hp and it still carried a lot more weight accordingly, nothing has changed and yet the big RS6 still beats them all in everything from acceleration to lap times to emissions to economy.

The only thing I think that can be leveled at the RS6 is it's pricing, it is definitely way more expensive than the others.


As RXBG has also noted, since the last RS4 was conceived, times have changed. The environment has become a serious problem. We're all under pressure to do our bit. In addition to recycling supermarket bags and energy efficient light bulbs, I also feel a need to drive a car that delivers at least 30 mpg and outputs less than 200g of CO2 per km. I am not alone.

For this reason, a naturally aspirated 4.2 V8 in the RS5 doesn't make sense. Smaller capacity engines with turbos does. This is why the new 3.0-litre engine S4 is so clever. It is supposed to deliver 30% less fuel consumption than previous version.

I have said for long enough that evironment situations are changing the way people think when buying a car and how car manufacturers are views certain products though the performance versions are less affected than the mainstream versions.

I am one example of this, I would normally buy the fast versions of any car that I can comfortably afford but now I am considering either the quickest diesel versions or downsizing. Heaven forbid I'm getting a XF 3.0dS out of loan to compare it to the likes of the S4 and see whether I can live with this class of car or whether I am the kind of guy that just needs a petrol engine car in his life.


True enthusiasts still want a V8. So the new 4.0 litre TFSI would be an ideal solution for both the RS5 and the RS4. It ticks all the boxes. Whatever Audi delivers, the RS5 will be a great car. But without giving it the eco-credentials it needs its appeal will be narrower.

Here is something I am in total disagreement with you. I do not think a true enthusiast looks for or needs a V8 engine, the only thing a true enthusiast looks for is performance and driving enjoyment from how it handles, steers and rides. I think people will see a new direction with the TT/RS and will see that a big heavy V8 engine is not necessary to enjoy a car and proves that less weight with less power can match previous expectations.

Given the choice I would much prefer an RS5 with a 380hp inline 5cyl with a lot of character and less overall weight (especially at the nose) than any V8 engine kicking out 450hp. But maybe that's just me. :looking:

[artur777]

Leadfoot,

next-gen M5 will have:
- 4.4L V8 with output about 550hp
- weight about 1800-1850kg
- weight distribution - around 50/50
- M-differential at rear axle

it will wip out the floow with current RS6 and will be more economical and better handler...
Nothing against Audi, but its impoissible to win everywhere.
Audi has progressed greatly, but next M5 will be one hell of a car...

And RS5 will not be the same killer for M3 as it is the same NA engine with S-Tronic... No revolutionary changes and high fuel consuption as M3 has...

Look at Porsche - GT3 with 3.8l NA and 435 hp, Turbo with 3.6l TT and 480 hp - this is the technology Audi should compete with... And Porsche is so much higher...

[Leadfoot]

Artur777,

Not sure if you are aware but this 4.4tt engine from BMW isn't as durable as BMW would make you think. So far in the X6 it has had overheating issues and that is from an only modest amount of boost, up that to the level needed for 550hp and well let's just see.

[audi_ch]

Artur777,

Not sure if you are aware but this 4.4tt engine from BMW isn't as durable as BMW would make you think. So far in the X6 it has had overheating issues and that is from an only modest amount of boost, up that to the level needed for 550hp and well let's just see.

lets be realisty, neighter BMW nor Audi would put en engine out witch wouldnt be durable.

Remember the rs4 b5, some one of theme had new turbos at 40 tkm, some at 60tkm, mine was still fine with 80tkm.

of course bmw will put the next m5 on top of the rs6. thats just logical, as the x5m will be over the cayenne turbo s, with handling and peformance.
this will go on and on, but from an inside man of audi, i heard someting interesting:

They think about changing direction, because neither q7v12, rs6 c6 and new r8 v10, wont all be not big sale cars, (doesnt mean they are bad, but timing is really bad) and they are not sure if the really need in the future that many high performing cars. We will see

[Leadfoot]

I think the RS5 motor is set in stone and will be a improved version of the existing 4.2v8 from the RS4. But there is a new 4.0L version coming which will probably be first seen in the next A8.

I reckon this is the engine that will appear in the next RS4, unless Audi are forced to rethink thing and the need for more radical technologies is called for, maybe this engine could be the basis for the future RS4 as was the case with the 4.4L unit in the X5 and was later tweaked to become the X5M.

One thing I think is perfectly clear, we are seeing the death of the normally aspirated engine in hi-performance cars from major manufacturers. With probably the RS5 will be the last of it's kind.

[G@Fourtitude]

I don't necessarily agree. 4.0T is coming and will most certainly go in A8 (maybe as S8), A7 and probably S6. However, RS cars are a different ilk and thus a different strategy. Wolfgang Hatz (head of engine for VAG and Audi) developed these high-rev engines and really loves them.

Further, bigger displacement in an RS car is less of an issue. For CAFE standards, corporate averages and the like, RS cars are very low volume. RS owners aren't as concerned about the cost of operation and have a higher tolerance for the price of the car itself.

In S-cars I agree with you as S-cars represent more volume. RS cars are the exotics in the Audi lineup so they won't follow the traditional efficiency pressures weighing on the rest of the lineup.

For instance, a high-rev 4.0 in the next RS4/5 might be an option (though to be clear I have no indication that this is the direction for B9). Michael Dick has already said in the press that the S5 and S4 will go lighter with small displacement and forced induction.

[tailpipe]

George,

I don't agree with you about RS models being able to do whatever they like because they only sell in very small volumes. When former London Mayor, Ken Livingstone, announced a new potential congestion tax of £25 per day for cars emitting more than 225 g/km of CO2, sales of Porsches in the Capital dropped off a cliff. With excessively high oil prices for most of 2007 year and the onset of the recession last year, suddenly we're all being very careful about what we drive. It isn't just about cutting back financially either. No one wants to be SEEN driving a high performance car in times like these. If such issues affect Porsche in a price bracket above that of Audi, you can bet your last buck that both firms are thinking about how to combine performance with economy.

This is exactly what Porsche has done with the latest incarnations of the Boxter and Cayman. So i fully expect future Audi RS models to do the same and have very clever tech in them. If the RS5 has simply a better breathing version of the existing 4.2 block mated to a manual box, then it is likely to have a very short shelf life indeed.

Enter the 4.0L. This is Audi's performance with economy silver bullet.

The whole point of the the 4.0L is that it can be tuned to deliver different levels of performance like the 2.0L EA888 unit. It's much more tunable than the existing 4.2 engine. Given that 2.0L units are good for over 300 bhp, then the 4.0L could develop well over 500 bhp.

The other important thing is that the new 4.0L is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller and lighter than the existing 4.2L engine, which means it can be positioned further back in the MLP chassis for all models and, with a lower mass, overall weight distribution is improved. As you note, Michael Dick has said that Audi will go for a lighter engine with a smaller displacement. This is exactly what the 4.0L is. No wonder that Porsche wants to use this engine in both the Panamera and 928 replacement.

So like, Leadfoot, I wholeheartedly hope Audi will listen to those of us who know and love its RS line-up and give us this engine in the next RS4. I don't want a V6. I want a V8. I think Audi has to have a V8. With the brilliant new M3, equally good C63 and not bad IS-F, the segment demands it. In giving us a V8, Audi has to do something a bit different and something very advanced. Otherwise we'll have no reason to sell our M3s. I owned an E46 M3 and sold it to buy a B8 RS4. Brilliant as the RS4 was, the economy was lamentable. When pushing on, the small fuel tank meant that total range wasn't much over 200 miles. (I replaced it with a Lexus - but that was utter foolishness on my part and that went too.)

Back to the RS5. Is Audi just playing a numbers game and rushing out a car to compete with BMW and Mercedes? I hope not.

[RXBG]

the most important issue for audi this RS5 gen has been the problem of the R8. why? it is the basis for a fundamental marketing and expense issue- the issue of niche and model line separation. were audi to develop a charged engine to go into the RS5 it would obviously be a creation at highest level of engineering because, as George says, it has to be to go into an RS model. as such, it would be at least be a superior engine to the current RS4 engine. audi cannot put such an engine into the RS5 without it ALSO going into the base R8 too. we all know the R8 can't take a charged angine of any kind. further, audi would have to build TWO engines when they could get by with one. in the next gen R8 the issue will be moot because it will be designed to accomodate a charged engine (project AVUS). so, by conclusion, the RS5 engine WILL be N/A for sure.

i also am sure that the 4.0T V8 will debut in the new A8 this september- to replace the aging FSI V8 that has been outclassed by the 3.0T in the A6. this will be but the FIRST version of this engine that we will see, with a higher tuned version probably appearing as an S6/S7/S8 engine.

i also see audi moving the S version of its models to a more accessible demographic so they can in essence take on the upper level non-M offerings of bmw and merc. i wouldn't be surprised- in fact- to see bmw rename its updated 335i (333 hp for 2010 MY) as 335i M-drive or M-line or Sport to separate it from the 328i. it is for this reason that i do not see there being a gas engine above the 2.0T and below the S4's in the A4 model line. audi can upgrade the 2.0T's output to 225-240 anytime it wants and still get good emissions and mpgs, thereby bridging the gap between the two.

car companies HAVE to get leaner and meaner to survive. and this is how it will start. i personally have no problem with it. we'll see if i am right.

[tailpipe]

RXBG,

Please explain why R8 wouldn't be able to take 4.0L charged engine.

[G@Fourtitude]

George,

I don't agree with you about RS models being able to do whatever they like because they only sell in very small volumes. When former London Mayor, Ken Livingstone, announced a new potential congestion tax of £25 per day for cars emitting more than 225 g/km of CO2, sales of Porsches in the Capital dropped off a cliff. With excessively high oil prices for most of 2007 year and the onset of the recession last year, suddenly we're all being very careful about what we drive. It isn't just about cutting back financially either. No one wants to be SEEN driving a high performance car in times like these. If such issues affect Porsche in a price bracket above that of Audi, you can bet your last buck that both firms are thinking about how to combine performance with economy.

This is exactly what Porsche has done with the latest incarnations of the Boxter and Cayman. So i fully expect future Audi RS models to do the same and have very clever tech in them. If the RS5 has simply a better breathing version of the existing 4.2 block mated to a manual box, then it is likely to have a very short shelf life indeed.

London (for now) is a unique market. I was in Washington, DC yesterday and I saw plenty of big motor cars. There will be a market for big engines... granted, it likely won't be nearly the market that we saw even a year ago and it's why companies like Bentley are seeing sales slide hard.

At Porsche, the Boxster/Cayman represent the mass sales. RS cars are more like the GT3/GT2 in porsche model range speak. Volume as compared to rest of Audi lineup is very low and prices are quite a bit premium.


The other important thing is that the new 4.0L is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller and lighter than the existing 4.2L engine, which means it can be positioned further back in the MLP chassis for all models and, with a lower mass, overall weight distribution is improved.

This is a fairly safe assumption, but I've not talked to anyone who's yet confirmed the size of the motor. What's your source on this?


As you note, Michael Dick has said that Audi will go for a lighter engine with a smaller displacement. This is exactly what the 4.0L is. No wonder that Porsche wants to use this engine in both the Panamera and 928 replacement.

He said that in the context of S-cars. I don't doubt that the 4.2 will give way to the 4.0 in a new modular engine family, but I don't know that high-rev vs forced induction is a dead issue. Hatz likes the high-rev concept and they have the wide range of models for which to develop variations on the 4.0 theme. I'd like to see forced induction for the tunability, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will happen.


I think Audi has to have a V8. With the brilliant new M3, equally good C63 and not bad IS-F, the segment demands it.

My best guess is that this is still a very safe assumption.


Back to the RS5. Is Audi just playing a numbers game and rushing out a car to compete with BMW and Mercedes? I hope not.

I don't follow the reason for this question. The car hasn't been rushed and the engine has been in the plans for some time. I've had confirmation on it for over a year. It's not a reactionary or rushed project.

[G@Fourtitude]

BTW, Hatz told me that, in the case of RS, superchargers don't have the power delivery you need for RS performance, so he'd opt for turbos if not high-rev.

[RXBG]

RXBG,

Please explain why R8 wouldn't be able to take 4.0L charged engine.

can't cool it. even a S/C motor needs a bit more cooling. and, although by some stretch feasible, SC the way i understand it currently can't produce the flexibility an R8 type car needs- only mid engine S/C car in recent memory that has had some success was the GT40.

[Marv]

BTW, Hatz told me that, in the case of RS, superchargers don't have the power delivery you need for RS performance, so he'd opt for turbos if not high-rev.

That strikes me as an odd thing to say. If he's looking at V6 for new RS then it makes sense I guess, but the latest Eaton TVS in the new A6/S4 and Jag's XF and XK run ~100-110hp per litre. Put this in a 4.x V8 and surely you've enough power and torque and much better throttle response than turbos (Jag's in gear acceleration is better than the current RS6)

Marv

[Leadfoot]

That strikes me as an odd thing to say. If he's looking at V6 for new RS then it makes sense I guess, but the latest Eaton TVS in the new A6/S4 and Jag's XF and XK run ~100-110hp per litre. Put this in a 4.x V8 and surely you've enough power and torque and much better throttle response than turbos (Jag's in gear acceleration is better than the current RS6)

Marv

I happen to agree with you Marv, I can't imagine why Audi feel that the Eaton TVS supercharger wouldn't suit RS applications and turbos would. Maybe it's an efficiency thing and the turbos offer more power vs economy and emissions but they are more problematic when it comes to packaging and lag.

I know very little on the subject of engine design so have to conceed to their better knowledge and judgement. But on reflection of the car which have or are currently using superchargers I can only say that on each occasion these examples have been very impressive and at the top of their games, always able to stand toe to toe with the competition and in most cases head and shoulders better than the competition as is the case with the XFR and S4.

[Erik]

I've driven the MTM R8 Kompressor, and I agree. It was very powerful, but also un-RS (talking RS4 here) in the way that you go from a high revving concept to a more torquey one.

[Leadfoot]

I've driven the MTM R8 Kompressor, and I agree. It was very powerful, but also un-RS (talking RS4 here) in the way that you go from a high revving concept to a more torquey one.

You're right Erik but then the same is true if they had chose to use turbos instead of a supercharger. It too would have been a more torquey one instead of a high revving concept, that's my point both serve the same purpose and behave quite similarly in that revs drop and torque goes up.

When would Audi prefer to use turbos instead of supercharging for RS, on a purely performance stand point I just don't get it. :eye:

[QuattroFun]

A 4.2L HDZ NA engine with at least 450PS is the only way to go with the upcoming RS5 - save the FI and cubic downsizing for future generations when I will drive something else

[Jpx]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned before but I read a article that speculated that there will be a rs4 and that it will only be sold as an avant, and the rs5 will get a modified 4.2l v8 making 450 hp.

here's the article.


Audi’s family of RS models continues to expand into segments as of yet untouched by Ingolstadt’s internal skunkworks quattro GmbH, though the core of the line has always remained centered on Audi’s B-segment offerings. With the changeover of that particular platform to the MLP-based B8 and the addition of the sculpted A5/S5 coupes, the upcoming RS 4 and even RS 5 are perhaps some of the most hotly anticipated RS cars ever. To that end, there’s been more speculation on the details of the RS 4 and RS 5 than ever before – from engine offerings to other expected hardware. Below is a summary of what we’ve been able to piece together from our sources along with links to the most prominent sources of additional information in the press.

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QUICK BACKGROUND: AUDI RS 5
It is fully expected that the Audi RS 5 will debut ahead of the RS 4. If Audi test mules are an indicator (and they usually are), that’ll be precisely the case. A black RS 5 mule wearing a production nose has been photographed on numerous occasions in California, while an even closer-to-production version with cladding that masked the production car’s wider flared arches was recently nabbed testing at the Nurburgring. Both appearances stirred up all sorts of speculation within the press.

Based on what we’ve seen and what we’ve been able to confirm with sources at Audi, we think we’ve dialed in closely on the look of the RS 5. These renderings use the same design elements lifted from images of the test mules to dictate the nose whereas earlier Fourtitude CGIs and the highly convincing RS 5 vs. M3 photoshops printed by CAR Magazine utilized the now-aging nose of the RS 6. So the snout will look considerably closer to that of the TT RS, but Audi Design tells us the RS 5 will most definitely make use of the Ur quattro-inspired blister fenders seen on the RS 6 – a perfect match to the S5’s coupe stature.

The rest of the look in our CGI is textbook RS equipment at this point. The honeycomb bar-less grille, RS-style split 5-spoke wheels, satin aluminum mirror housings and the optional Titanium pack are all integrated into our RS 5 rendering. Audi tends to be very consistent in their S and RS design language application, so it is our guess that these should be quite close to production.

Could there be an RS 5 Cabriolet? Audi went this way in the B7 generation RS 4 so there’s no reason to think it couldn’t happen. That said, the RS 4 Cabriolet had a hard time selling out its extremely limited inventory in the USA, so a drop top RS 5 stateside may be a harder sell even though the US is traditionally Audi’s best market for convertibles.

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QUICK BACKGROUND: AUDI RS 4:
There’s been much less mention of the RS 4, but quattro GmbH boss Stefan Reil confirmed its existence to us during a roundtable interview in Neckarsulm last year and we expect it to come to market shortly behind the RS 5.

With a V8 S5 selling alongside a 3.0T S4 in the USA in 2010, the idea of a normally-aspirated high-rev V8 RS 5 and a twin turbo V6 RS 4 seemed intriguing to us. We posed the question to Audi AG engine czar Wolfgang Hatz and he said that the business case isn’t there for multiple B-level RS engines… even prior to the economic meltdown. Even though a twin turbo V6 project began during the development of the B7 RS 4 and it was again examined during the gestation of the S4, the RS 4 must share its engine and drivetrain in order to make a business case.

More interesting on the RS 4 is that it returns to the example set by the B4 RS 2 and B5 RS 4 to be sold as an Avant only. Sources tell Fourtitude that the RS 4 sedan was done to meet U.S. demand. Without North American planned inventory, an RS 4 sedan fails to make a case for itself.

Why no RS 4 sedan for America? The theory is that there’s only enough market for one RS model within the B segment in the USA and that model is the more premium and more mainstream sexy coupe. Audi remains coy as to whether even the RS 5 will make the final cut but this seems more message positioning than anything. Our intel suggests the RS 5 is all but a foregone conclusion for the States.

Details on the RS 4 Avant are less clear than the RS 5 because no mules have been sighted as of yet. That said, Audi’s RS design consistency makes the Avant easy to envision. The accompanying RS 4 Avant CGI includes many of the same elements we’ve applied to the coupe – the frowning RS style air intakes at the front, the 5-spoke wheels and the oval exhaust at the rear.

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TECHNICAL DETAILS: RS 4 AVANT and RS 5
The amount of speculation surrounding just what would come under the hoods of these two cars ranges considerably. Some say a high-rev V10 or even the twin turbo V10 from the RS 6. Both are wishful thinking. Wolfgang Hatz has definitively told Fourtitude that the V10 will not fit into a production version of the B8 coupe body structure. Hatz absolutely loves the high-rev V10 from the R8 with all its immediate torque, but the added weight in the snout would be considerable even if it were as easy as simply shoe-horning the big V10 in there.

Another very common and also very perplexing rumor is that of a twin turbo high-rev V8 at around 450-hp. Near as we can tell, the rumor started at CAR and they’re usually a very credible source. While there is a twin-turbocharged 4.0 V8 confirmed for debut in the next A8, there are no immediate plans to fit it in the RS 5. Suggestions in the press of a twin turbocharged high-rev 4.2 to bump power by a mere 30 hp also don’t seem to add up. Adding two turbos for for a gain of thirty horses seems like a lot of work for little payoff.

We have it on very good word from the highest levels of Audi that the engine will be an updated version of the high-rev V8 developed for the B7 RS 4 and R8 4.2. An additional 30 hp is expected, netting the rumored figure of 450 hp total. Our best guess is that the added power comes from the addition of Valvelift as one senior source has confirmed that the tech it is compatible with the 4.2’s 8,000+ redline.

Audi’s new 7-speed S tronic is capable of taking all the torque this updated 4.2 has to offer, and high-placed sources have hinted that the transmission is being seriously considered for duty in the pair of RS cars. Whether or not Audi chooses to go exclusively with the dual clutch semi-auto as Nissan’s decided to do with the GTR remains to be seen, but we’re personally hoping that they don’t turn their backs on a standard 6-speed manual.

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Expect RS models to also utilize Audi’s latest Sport Differential as seen in the new S4. Software controls this right-to-left rear differential, so it is feasible that Audi could offer a more aggressive tune that would make the RS versions even more tail-happy and easy-to-drift than the S4 is already.

As for weight, Audi fitted aluminum fenders and an aluminum hood to the B7-generation RS 4. There’s no reason to believe this won’t be the same for the B8 RS 4 and RS 5 models as both A and S versions of these cars utilize steel now. Such a move would help optimize their front-to-rear weight ratios even more.


INTERIOR and TRIM
As with the exterior treatment, one need only look at design details in Audi’s latest RS offerings to know what to expect from the RS 4 Avant and RS 5. Aluminum pedals as seen on the TTRS and satin aluminum finish on the MMI buttons and controls seem logical. So does the fat diameter flat-bottom wheel design with perforated leather that’s become standard fare in RS 6 and TT RS. The logo mark in dyed perforated leather on the door panels from the TT RS and R8 V12 TDI design study would be a great touch.

The seats themselves may be even more interesting to North Americans. Higher-grade leather and piping could adorn the basic S-car seats as we’ve seen in the past, but there’s even better news regarding the aggressive shell style seats from Recaro. In the past, these seats were out of play for North America because they lacked the proper side airbag equipment needed for this market, but a source at Volkswagen tells us the seats are now in the available column for fitment in cars bound for this side of the pond. While the Volkswagen versions of the Recaro shell seats aren’t exactly the same as those sold by Audi, the qualification should carry over as much of the internal framework is shared. We have yet to confirm their availability, but we wouldn’t be surprised to see these seats as optional kit based on this information.

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/uploads/Audi_News/ttrs_seats.jpg
WHEN AND WHERE
There’s a whole industry based around spy photo shooting at the Nurburgring. When a mule turns up testing there, as the RS 5 has, this testing is also a strong signal that the car isn’t far from debut. The next major European or world auto show is the Frankfurt IAA in September and we expect the RS 5 to bow at that time.

It’s a total guess, but that timeframe would put the RS 5 in the European market by early 2010 and perhaps in the US market by the launch of the 2011 model year in August 2010. This would make sense as the S5 will be migrating to the 3.0T supercharged V6 by that time and the RS 5 will fill the big displacement niche left by the S5 for those who wish to pay the premium.

Timing for the RS 4 Avant is harder to guess. It’s doubtful that Audi will show the cars at the same time, but the RS 4 can’t be that much further behind. Using our guessed RS 5 timeframe as a model, we’d expect to see the RS 4 at the Geneva Motor Show in 2010 and maybe alongside an RS 5 Cabriolet so that the latter is on the market in time for the summer season.

[RXBG]

sounds like the RS5 engine bay was the biggest reason the RS4 engine couldn't make more power- and that audi held back on the same motor's power output in the V8 R8 simply to leave room for an "upgrade" via ECU tuning later in this model's lifecycle- a la MY 2011. as such, the RS5 engine bay design will allow the RS4 motor to show its true potential. via better intake and exhaust design as well as some ECU reprogramming it should net considerably more power and a bit more torque. a range of 460-480 can be expected. and an even higher redline.