B9 Audi A4

[tailpipe]

Somewhere within the dark recesses of Ingolstadt's design department work has begun on the next generation Audi A4. I know nothing about this yet, but it should be very interesting to see where it goes. it is a subject that raises many interesting questions.

When Martin Winterkorn was the CEO of Audi, he wanted the B8 A4 (indeed the entire new platform architecture for all Audi models) to move to a rear-wheel drive layout. Bernd Pischestreider, then the CEO of the entire Volkswagen Group vetoed Winterkorn's plan, so we ended up with the current A5, A4, Q5, A7, next A6 and next A8 - all of which are now signed-off - being built around the new MLP architecture.

Personally, I think Winterkorn was right (the man is undoubtedly the cleverest boss of any auto manufacturer) and it was a shame his plans were thwarted. The new A4 though better than its predecessor is still not as dynamically sorted as the Mercedes-Benz C-Class or BMW 3-Series. (Luckily, it has other virtues such as great build quality, better styling, better interior quality, better tech and so on.) But what next?

Winterkorn has now replaced Bernd Pischestreider as head of the Group. So will Audi now move to rear wheel drive? Don't bet against it. The Volkswagen Group needs a rear wheel drive platform for Porsche and Bentley so it makes sense to develop such a solution for larger Audi models.

On the other hand, financially, it makes sense for Audi to stick with the current layout, especially given that we are in such uncertain times. A workable solution could be for Audi to move the front axle even further forward. I remember that when the B8 was developed one proposal was to mount the engine fully behind the front axle. This would have achieved a much better weight distribution but would have been both complex and expensive to engineer as well as creating packaging issues. So it is not an easy choice.

More fundamentally, I also wonder whether the B9 generation will be the last petrol-powered A4 before Audi moves over to fuel cell technology, i.e. in 12 years time? When that happens, all sorts of new packaging options will become available and the rules of the game will change again.

The other major reality check is that Porsche now owns Volkswagen. The fit between Skoda, Volkswagen, Porsche and Bentley is good in terms of each brand addressing value, mainstream, premium and ultra-high end segments, but where does this leave Audi, SEAT and Lamborghini?

Audi is a strong brand, but not as strong as Porsche or Volkswagen. It is also is a real problem for Porsche. The R8 is a better car than the 911. The TT is a much better seller and more profitable car than the Cayman/ Boxter, even if the Cayman is dynamically superior. And the new A7 will be a direct competitor to the Panamera.

When the markets recover - which they will - Audi could be floated-off as a separate entity together with Lamborghini and SEAT. This may sound ridiculous, but such a move would give Volkswagen Porsche the cash it needs to develop fuel cell technology.

If Audi remains part of the Group, Porsche will need to do something to prevent product overlap from cannibalizing sales. The A3 overlaps with the Golf. The Passat overlaps with the A4. The Scirocco now overlaps with the TT. The A8 and Phaeton overlap with the Panamera. Giving each brand a very tight segment to adress would fix the problem, but could restrict new RS models.

I am certainly going to be researching these questions in next months and will report anything I find out. in the meantime, has anyone got a crystal ball?

[Leadfoot]

Do you honestly believe if Audi didn't make the A3 that all of those sales would have went to the Golf? Likewise with all the other products which overlap.

It was a brilliant idea to basically dress the same product in different cloths and sell it as an alternative, it cheaper and give greater production numbers from a development program. I reckon it's this that made VAG the third biggest manufacturer.....or is that second now?

[AndyBG]

No crystal ball here, but I'm affraid that its more and more crystal clear that Audi and Porsche are going to ''trespass'' one to anothers ''backyard''... Wendelin Wiedeking is one VERY ambitionous man, and he want to develop Porsche in strongest car brand in the world with big model range all toping its class. Expect several more Porsche cars in recent time.

I'm really big fan of the both marks since time when those two havn't had ''any problems''. It is really going to interesting where will all this go...

[tailpipe]

Do you honestly believe if Audi didn't make the A3 that all of those sales would have went to the Golf? Likewise with all the other products which overlap.

It was a brilliant idea to basically dress the same product in different cloths and sell it as an alternative, it cheaper and give greater production numbers from a development program. I reckon it's this that made VAG the third biggest manufacturer.....or is that second now?

I think platform sharing can work very effectively, but there has to be a worthwhile difference between models. Think Scirocco versus TT. They're similar, but different. There's a proper divide between them in terms of styling, equipment and quality. The Mark IV and V Golfs were deliberately 'dumbed down' to give market room to the A3 and this alienated traditional Golf buyers. Each successive generation of Golf has sold less than its predecessor. New Golf mark VI corrects this very well, but makes me wonder what Audi will do with next A3.

[Leadfoot]

It's funny but I see the TT and Scirocco as very similar cars in overall appeal and character, at the very least as similar in this as the A3 and Golf currently are.

Another thing, if Audi were to adopt a rwd platform what message would that not say about 25 years of promoting quattro as the ultimate expression of performance driving. I somehow doubt Audi would want to drop the one thing which separates it from it's nearest rivals.

[Damienr8]

I highly doubt that Audi will be moving towards rwd layouts anytime in the near future. The B8 A4 has very good handling characteristics and i think with some more fine tuning, they can achieve great success with the MLP

- Damien

[RXBG]

just drove a B8 A4 2.0TQ non-sport auto on saturday. i loved it. remember that 90% of car buyers could care less about handling. they drive their cars like they are civics. the MLP is perfect for audi. and believe me, based on my drive the S4 will be outstanding- and....... the RS4- i can't imagine how good it'll be.

btw- the new A4 drives better than the new c-class. and it has outsold the 3 series and c-class in germany already. nuff said.

[The Pretender]

When Martin Winterkorn was the CEO of Audi, he wanted the B8 A4 (indeed the entire new platform architecture for all Audi models) to move to a rear-wheel drive layout. Bernd Pischestreider, then the CEO of the entire Volkswagen Group vetoed Winterkorn's plan,
The best thing Bernd Pischestreider ever have done.
If Audi switch to rear wheel drive i will never buy a Audi again.
They immediately need to shoot dead the person who even propose the idea.
Audi is "Quattro" and the rest of the world use outdated rear wheel drive.
A useless prehistoric system in winter.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

Jarod,

Just say what you mean and don't hold back. :hihi:

[The Pretender]

Jarod,

Just say what you mean and don't hold back. :hihi:
Everything that made Audi what it is today is "Quattro" and "inline five cylinder" engine.
Why in the hell should Audi change to RWD, they throw away there only heritaga they have.
A RWD Audi would be nothing more then a very pore imitation of average used car technology.
Everyone can make a rear wheel drive car, and only a few can make a gread 4WD car.
If Audi change to RWD they can stop using the "Vorsprung Durch Technik" slogan, because there would be no "Vorsprung Durch Technik"
The last 10 years Audi has already been polluted with to much outside interference.
Back in the days Audi was Audi, but now a days Audi's are .....

Jarod.

[RXBG]

Everything that made Audi what it is today is "Quattro" and "inline five cylinder" engine.
Why in the hell should Audi change to RWD, they throw away there only heritaga they have.
A RWD Audi would be nothing more then a very pore imitation of average used car technology.
Everyone can make a rear wheel drive car, and only a few can make a gread 4WD car.
If Audi change to RWD they can stop using the "Vorsprung Durch Technik" slogan, because there would be no "Vorsprung Durch Technik"
The last 10 years Audi has already been polluted with to much outside interference.
Back in the days Audi was Audi, but now a days Audi's are .....

Jarod.


100% baby. :applause:

[tvrfan]

audi has not build RWD and Audi will not build RWD cars ever. one point is with MLP, rwd wont fit there, and it would cost alot to change that.

[Leadfoot]

I feel you Jarod.

I happen to not agree with Tailpipe, all Audi require is to adopt a more rear bias awe system, possibly a system like in the GTR where the engine can be moved even further back and with the gearbox at the rear the balance of weight will be more evenly spread.

[The Pretender]

I feel you Jarod.

I happen to not agree with Tailpipe, all Audi require is to adopt a more rear bias awe system, possibly a system like in the GTR where the engine can be moved even further back and with the gearbox at the rear the balance of weight will be more evenly spread.
I had hoped Audi would go extreme and build the TT RS like the GT-R.
A longitudial inline five TFSI with a DSG/S-Tronic at the rear axle.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

I had hoped Audi would go extreme and build the TT RS like the GT-R.
A longitudial inline five TFSI with a DSG/S-Tronic at the rear axle.

Jarod.

Much as I too would have loved that idea it's not the most cost effective way and would have required huge development costs. Much better to use technology to hand and keep costs down.

[tailpipe]

Whether Audi adopts a rear wheel drive chassis or not, Quattro isn't going anywhere. There will continue to be 4-wheel drive Audis, for sure.

Sorry to disagree, but without all-wheel drive, i.e. FWD only, the C-Class is a better handling car than the new A4. You don't need to read reviews to see this, just look at the weight balance. Moving the engine back a few centimetres certainly made a difference. Personally, I don't think Audi moved it back far enough. I would have liked to have seen it positioned as far away from the front axle as possible and preferably behind it. i am not alone; the motoring press were universally underwhelmed by the lack of progress made by Audi’s MLP architecture.

The point is, that so long as Winterkorn isn't thwarted by Porsche management, we can expect an unfettered Audi to do something special and clever with B9.

A front wheel drive chassis with the engine behind the axle and the gearbox in front of the engine would be an interesting solution - think of it as a RWD chassis back-to-front. Although it would be very hard to engineer and package, it would actually provide all the advantages of a front-wheel drive chassis and rear wheel drive layout and yet have few of the disadvantages.

The sophistication of electronic driver aids has done much to eliminate the disadvantages of rear wheel drive platforms and there is something quite fun about taming a tail slide - where road conditions permit ; -) but in winter, Quattro rules.

The reason why the RWD debate versus FWD debate is important is because the vast majority of Audis sold are not Quattro.

[Leadfoot]

The vast majority of Audis sold have less then 150hp, now that doesn't say sporty or driving dynamics to me. It says practicality, packaging, space, driving security and above all, price.

It's solely us car nuts there want our cars to be entertaining. Hack the majority of Audis sold are 2.0TDIs.

[The Pretender]

A front wheel drive chassis with the engine behind the axle and the gearbox in front of the engine would be an interesting solution
Audi could simply put a 180 degree turned Audi R8 drivetrain in the B9 and it would be the best Audi ever.

Jarod.

[AndyBG]

Tailpipe really have some point, and as much I love Audi, it seems that without RWD, it can't totally enter ''first league'', and that is where Audi wants to be. ''quattro'' want go anywhere, but lets be realistic, cars that made Audi big ''favor'' in recent years are RWD, LeMans winners, R8 and R10, samo goes for future R15, while GT version of Audis ''road going supercar'', R8 is RWD to...

Audi has been trying to ''push'' its AWD politics for many years now, but I don't see why it wouldn't add one more good thing to its, allready great, technical layout.

[The Pretender]

The only reason Audi race with RWD are the rules.
If Audi could, the LeMans/DTM race cars would have quattro.
But quattro got penelized over and over again.
Audi could not win that battle and that's why Audi start racing with RWD cars, and that is the only reason for it.


Jarod.

[AndyBG]

Yes, but Audi entered those competitions, it hasn't ignore them. All I want say is that is capable for more than just one kind work.

[The Pretender]

I know what you all mean, why not a RWD/quattro layout instead of a FWD/quattro layout.
But that would also mean that Audi's 4WD is not any better then the 4WD of competition.

Jarod.

[AndyBG]

That would be the last thing to mean... There are different types of buyers, and I can be 95% sure that people ho drives RWD, DON'T want to drive AWD, and opposite. Having that in mind, why Audi can't get both of those buyers...?

[tailpipe]

Glad that this thread has generated so much debate.

This forum really is one of the best, because it is populated (a) by people who actually own/ drive high performance Audi's and (b) who are both intelligent, civilized and treat other members with respect and courtesy and (c) you'd be surprised by the people who follow what is said here without ever contributing to it!!!!!

Keep it up, lads.

BTW someone has just told me that next A8 will NOT use the MLP chassis, as was reported. instead it will use the new large car platform developed for the Panamera, Bentley, Lamborghini Estoque and next Phateon. This IS a rear wheel drive platform as well as a 4WD one!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You heard it here first.

[Leadfoot]

Glad that this thread has generated so much debate.

This forum really is one of the best, because it is populated (a) by people who actually own/ drive high performance Audi's and (b) who are both intelligent, civilized and treat other members with respect and courtesy and (c) you'd be surprised by the people who follow what is said here without ever contributing to it!!!!!

Keep it up, lads.

BTW someone has just told me that next A8 will NOT use the MLP chassis, as was reported. instead it will use the new large car platform developed for the Panamera, Bentley, Lamborghini Estoque and next Phateon. This IS a rear wheel drive platform as well as a 4WD one!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You heard it here first.

Now that is interesting to hear. Though not unexpected given that Porsche need economy of scale to justify such a development like the Panamera. Also in models like the A8 there is an argument for having rwd over fwd as well as Quattro, it's more expected to have rwd in the upper executive class, in fact only Audi and VW offer fwd in this sector so they are maybe at a disadvantage.

Regarding the rest of the range, I think price has as much an appeal and the smaller the car the more important this becomes. BMW's biggest mistake in my mind was to make the 1series rwd, it has to many package issues and efficiency can't be as good as fwd, look at the rest of the competition, they are all fwd for a good reason. I still feel that the A4 performs perfectly well as a fwd car, but it's packaging is no better than any other rwd car and this is solely because of it's engine configuration but it does make perfect sense when you consider the Quattro setup, until Audi completely change their AWD system I don't see Audi changing from fwd for the lesser models an time soon.

P.S.

And when you consider that Audi are already out selling BMW and Mercedes what is the point in changing what on the face of it is a winning formula.

[artur777]

The vast majority of Audis sold have less then 150hp, now that doesn't say sporty or driving dynamics to me. It says practicality, packaging, space, driving security and above all, price.

It's solely us car nuts there want our cars to be entertaining. Hack the majority of Audis sold are 2.0TDIs.

Ha-ha-ha!
Right you are - we are car nuts!
Most of people prefere FWD 2.0TDI or even 1.8-)

[artur777]

I know what you all mean, why not a RWD/quattro layout instead of a FWD/quattro layout.
But that would also mean that Audi's 4WD is not any better then the 4WD of competition.

Jarod.

It's sad you don't agree that a carmaker of the first league should be successfull aroung all range of cars and technologies including RWD.
And Audi is almost or already in the first league

RWD has its advantages as well as Quattro or FWD.
The consumer should decide what to buy - not You!!!!
And the consumers buy a lot of RWD cars...
So the answer is evident...
You are just too concentrated on Quattro setup and don't look wide...

[Erik]

BTW someone has just told me that next A8 will NOT use the MLP chassis, as was reported. instead it will use the new large car platform developed for the Panamera, Bentley, Lamborghini Estoque and next Phateon. This IS a rear wheel drive platform as well as a 4WD one!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You heard it here first.

Thanks! :asian:

This will be very interesting to keep an eye on. :thumb:

There were rumors before about this, many years back.

I'm sure (a) RWD model(s) could fit in the wide portfolio of VAG / Porsche / Lamborghini and so on to compete with BMW and MB and others.

[roadrunner]

Boys. i'm late to the game (this post), but the topic is far to important, that i skip it.

1st of all @tailpipe:

I had a small deja vu at the beginning of the post - did we have not a similar conversation a while back ;)

Doesn't matter - your point with the model range overlap: As leadi already mentioned, the overlap still pays off, when the bottom line is positive

meaning e.g. Golf + A3 sell more together than Golf alone, not mentioning higher profit on the A3 and more extras in the car = even higher profit.

don't forget that the platform is being used for other models as well (Skoda Octavia, TT)

Your comment about the Golf Mk. IV being 'deliberately 'dumbed down' i cannot agree with. The Golf Mk. IV was a quality benchmark for VW and the rest of the industrie. That changeg with the V and was corrected with the VI.

And yes, it is true that last Golf generations sold less than its predesessor. This is not the fault of the A3, but of the diversification of this segment (CC Cabrios = Eos, Minivans = Touran, small SUVs = Tiguan,...) Buyers have much more choices and they use them.


Now to the 2 most important points for me:

1. 'floating' Audi to the market = selling it out of VAG/Porsche

What sense would that make to sell a highly profitable, ever growing, industrie leading (design, technologie,) company = and make it your competitor :vhmmm:

It won't be an easy tast to steer throught the fast model ranges of now combined Porsche & VAG / Audi.

But it seems to work quite well already

Touareg / Cayenne / Q7 - Cayenne outselling the others if i'm not mistaken, still leaving enough room for the others and letting VW & Audi fill this SUV spot with an own model.

Sidenote: one of my neighbours drives his second Touareg V10 (now an R50), i'm not sure he would ever buy an Porsche

I have the outmost respect for Porsche, but the worst thing they could do is to put Audi on a "short leash".

The R8 is a masterpeace of a car and i doubt that all 5000 yearly customers where almost signing an 911 contract.


And I'm deeply confinced that Audi is what it is because of the setting within the VAG group (not saying that it makes things always easier) = plattfrom, technology sharing.

BMW & Mercedes seem to see it similar - regarding their repeated talks about component sharing



2. Audi and RWD

For me Audi = quattro.

But as already stated, most Audis are sold as FWD 100-160 HP cars. Although the quattro share is increasing (helped by the Q models, likewise BMW with the x range)

Audi has an FWD heritage, the customers of the volume Audis are used to FWD and that's what they wont. Putting RWD on the plate would loore some new customers but at the same time scare, put off some existing.

what advantage would RWD give Audi in order to reach the goal of 1.5 million cars in 2015 - none.

I assume the MLP plattform wac calculated for a longer run (not only one model generation)


@AndiBG:

I have to disagree with you on this point:


it seems that without RWD, it can't totally enter ''first league'', and that is where Audi wants to be

Audi is there already :D


I hope i made sense (under the influence of the flue)

[roadrunner]

...

BTW someone has just told me that next A8 will NOT use the MLP chassis, as was reported. instead it will use the new large car platform developed for the Panamera, Bentley, Lamborghini Estoque and next Phateon. This IS a rear wheel drive platform as well as a 4WD one!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting info, although the market impact would be minimal = most A8 are sold as quattro already.

and maybe it's just me, but if i have the choice - i would always go for quattro (yes, even over RWD)

[AndyBG]

Ok, maybe this will sound stupid, or somehow pretencious, but I have lots of oppurtunity to spend time with people ho buys cars for prestige, lots of them have a long tradition of owning MB, BMW, Porsche... Some of them have picked up Audis in the past, but many are ''hard headed'' when it comes to some Audi issues, FWD ang ''quattro'' for instance... Point made is that FWD is unexepcatble, while ''quattro'' is unnesecery...Why, becouse they have ACTUAL need for 4WD only 7-10 days a year, rest of the time its just OK with RWD. My point is that Audi has differed for ever, so why it schouldn't do that now? It can offer both layouts, and cover bigger market. Porsche is by far BEST example of that. You can buy every of its models in both versions, and no one is complaining... RWD cars are more prestigies, and that is ''just written'' in people heads. 95% can't actualy say you why, but they want RWD. So, if market wants something, give it to them! Why leaving cash laying down, all you need to do is to pick it up!

My point, ''quattro'', FWD, RWD..., let them choose. Audi schould develop it self further away...

:cheers:

[artur777]

Ok, maybe this will sound stupid, or somehow pretencious, but I have lots of oppurtunity to spend time with people ho buys cars for prestige, lots of them have a long tradition of owning MB, BMW, Porsche... Some of them have picked up Audis in the past, but many are ''hard headed'' when it comes to some Audi issues, FWD ang ''quattro'' for instance... Point made is that FWD is unexepcatble, while ''quattro'' is unnesecery...Why, becouse they have ACTUAL need for 4WD only 7-10 days a year, rest of the time its just OK with RWD. My point is that Audi has differed for ever, so why it schouldn't do that now? It can offer both layouts, and cover bigger market. Porsche is by far BEST example of that. You can buy every of its models in both versions, and no one is complaining... RWD cars are more prestigies, and that is ''just written'' in people heads. 95% can't actualy say you why, but they want RWD. So, if market wants something, give it to them! Why leaving cash laying down, all you need to do is to pick it up!

My point, ''quattro'', FWD, RWD..., let them choose. Audi schould develop it self further away...

:cheers:

Right you are!

[artur777]

Interesting info, although the market impact would be minimal = most A8 are sold as quattro already.

and maybe it's just me, but if i have the choice - i would always go for quattro (yes, even over RWD)

You look not wide as well as the Pretender
it's 21st century now - and if you wnat to be successful, you have to offer your customers a range of options including different drivetrain setups.
IMHO as a customer:
For me - RWD is the world racing heritage, it's a sort of romancy. It's for pro drivers and for warm regions
FWD - for beginners and indifferent people
AWD - for better control, but not so exciting - for advanced customers and cold regions

You have to offer all possible solutions to be successful!
Of course Quattro is great, but RWD has a lot of its advantages also!!!

[The Pretender]

Maybe the VW Bluesport based Audi R3/R4 will be the first RWD production Audi.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

@Roadrunner,

Well said and I couldn't have put it better.

@Artur777,

If Audi did three different platforms (fwd, rwd and awd) it would be the only one that springs to mind to offer such a setup, especially if it was across the board on all models. In fact such an undertaking would probably bankrupt VAG.

I can understand the appeal of having certain models offering rwd instead of fwd, the A8 and possibly a few new sportscar (i.e. R4, R8 and next R8) but for the rest of the range fwd along side Quattro is perfect. In reality Audi views Quattro as the better solution to rwd in sports applications so to change to rwd might be viewed as a negative, after all fwd is better in all tricky surface conditions than rwd and it's also safer to control if the car gets out of control. The only benefit rwd may have over either fwd or awd is the ability to move the tail around in a corner, it may be more entertain to the skilled driver but it's bloody scary to the untrained.

I know this is taking the discussion off track a bit but this continuing praise that roadtesters place on rwd car because of their tail out tom-foolery really gets on my tits. No one ever drive like this on public roads and if they do they need locked up, what is required is predictable, confidence inspiring handling characteristic which is what fwd gives and Quattro re-enforces.

How many professional racing drivers drive high-performance rwd cars as their daily transport away from the track. ;)

[roadrunner]

...
For me - RWD is the world racing heritage, it's a sort of romancy. It's for pro drivers and for warm regions
FWD - for beginners and indifferent people
AWD - for better control, but not so exciting - for advanced customers and cold regions
...
Of course Quattro is great, but RWD has a lot of its advantages also!!!

Don't get me wrong - i never said that RWD is bad or worse.

And i would change your statements a litte from
warm & cold regions to
dry (hardly any rain) & wet (real 4 seasons) like in Austia.

We get snow, rain and sun - although dry & sun is the least of the options - rain the most frequent. and here the advantage of AWD comes into play - all year round.
I would only be able to enjoy a RWD car to the fullest during the dry & sunny days. I can enjoy my quattro every day.

And it is my own fault that my 'Audi romance' began in 1980 with the introduction of the 'ur' quattro - i know, i'm a romantic guy :love:

[The Pretender]

And it is my own fault that my 'Audi romance' began in 1980 with the introduction of the quattro - i know, i'm a romantic guy :love:
That is the same with me, the Audi Ur-quattro change my world, from the introduction i'm a "Audiaan".

Jarod.

[tvrfan]

@Roadrunner,

Well said and I couldn't have put it better.

@Artur777,

If Audi did three different platforms (fwd, rwd and awd) it would be the only one that springs to mind to offer such a setup, especially if it was across the board on all models. In fact such an undertaking would probably bankrupt VAG.

I can understand the appeal of having certain models offering rwd instead of fwd, the A8 and possibly a few new sportscar (i.e. R4, R8 and next R8) but for the rest of the range fwd along side Quattro is perfect. In reality Audi views Quattro as the better solution to rwd in sports applications so to change to rwd might be viewed as a negative, after all fwd is better in all tricky surface conditions than rwd and it's also safer to control if the car gets out of control. The only benefit rwd may have over either fwd or awd is the ability to move the tail around in a corner, it may be more entertain to the skilled driver but it's bloody scary to the untrained.

I know this is taking the discussion off track a bit but this continuing praise that roadtesters place on rwd car because of their tail out tom-foolery really gets on my tits. No one ever drive like this on public roads and if they do they need locked up, what is required is predictable, confidence inspiring handling characteristic which is what fwd gives and Quattro re-enforces.

How many professional racing drivers drive high-performance rwd cars as their daily transport away from the track. ;)

do you mean with that, that if audi would use RWD then the VAG would go bankrupt?

[artur777]

Don't get me wrong - i never said that RWD is bad or worse.

And i would change your statements a litte from
warm & cold regions to
dry (hardly any rain) & wet (real 4 seasons) like in Austia.

We get snow, rain and sun - although dry & sun is the least of the options - rain the most frequent. and here the advantage of AWD comes into play - all year round.
I would only be able to enjoy a RWD car to the fullest during the dry & sunny days. I can enjoy my quattro every day.

And it is my own fault that my 'Audi romance' began in 1980 with the introduction of the 'ur' quattro - i know, i'm a romantic guy :love:

well said:-)
agree with you
quattro helps to use the car's potential all round a year differing from rwd cars...

[Leadfoot]

do you mean with that, that if audi would use RWD then the VAG would go bankrupt?

No, what meant was if Audi did a fwd, rwd and awd version of each model would be so costly to development that no car would ever make money.

[Audiphile]

Audi is a strong brand, but not as strong as Porsche or Volkswagen.

I couldn't disagree more. Audi is simply the strongest brand. Everything Audi has done in the last ten years has shown not only their quality in building product, but their brand brillance as well. Audi is the foundation of VAG and has more influence over VAG than anyone may realize. VAG is controlled by former Audi Bosses and Piech is the ultimate Audi lynch pin. However, as a brand Audi has become a very serious force in the premium market as the third largest and the ONLY expanding premium brand. Great culture, great product, unsurpassed racing heritage, and a renowed technogical heritage (dating back to August Horch himself) have proven Audi to be one very distinguished pedigree. Autoweek recently proclaimed that Audi is one company to fear. Yes, Porsche may be more profitable, but they are highly vulnerable, have lost huge sales up to 47% globally in 2008, and are in no position to survive in the long haul had it not been for some clever financial strategies and stock manipulations to acquire VAG. Audi's Lords have shown astute business savey that is now envied by BMW and MB alike in terms of profitability and sustainability. While BMW and MB will fight for survival over the next several years, Audi will continue to prosper. Wasn't Audi the first to enter China over 20 years ago? No one else did.

So, over the long run, Audi is easily the strongest brand and the jewel of not only VAG but of the German car industry. The Concept A7 proves that Audi is hot!

RWD: never except for racing purposes. RWD would be a stain on Audi heritage and its name in my opinion.

[tailpipe]

Audi is a strong brand, but not as strong as Porsche or Volkswagen.

I couldn't disagree more. Audi is simply the strongest brand. Everything Audi has done in the last ten years has shown not only their quality in building product, but their brand brillance as well. Audi is the foundation of VAG and has more influence over VAG than anyone may realize. VAG is controlled by former Audi Bosses and Piech is the ultimate Audi lynch pin. However, as a brand Audi has become a very serious force in the premium market as the third largest and the ONLY expanding premium brand. Great culture, great product, unsurpassed racing heritage, and a renowed technogical heritage (dating back to August Horch himself) have proven Audi to be one very distinguished pedigree. Autoweek recently proclaimed that Audi is one company to fear. Yes, Porsche may be more profitable, but they are highly vulnerable, have lost huge sales up to 47% globally in 2008, and are in no position to survive in the long haul had it not been for some clever financial strategies and stock manipulations to acquire VAG. Audi's Lords have shown astute business savey that is now envied by BMW and MB alike in terms of profitability and sustainability. While BMW and MB will fight for survival over the next several years, Audi will continue to prosper. Wasn't Audi the first to enter China over 20 years ago? No one else did.

So, over the long run, Audi is easily the strongest brand and the jewel of not only VAG but of the German car industry. The Concept A7 proves that Audi is hot!

RWD: never except for racing purposes. RWD would be a stain on Audi heritage and its name in my opinion.

Dear Audiphile,

While I admire (and share) your passion for the Audi brand, my comments about brand strength are based on fact not subjective opinion. If you look at the methodologies used by the many leading brand / marketing/ research firms who make a living out of valuing brands you'll notice that they essentially define brand value as the ability of a brand to generate cash flow. Based on Interbrand's latest (2008) ranking of the top 100 global brands featured in Business Week last year, the strongest car brands are as follows:

6. Toyota
10. Mercedes-Benz
13. BMW
20. Honda
49. Ford
(50. Harley-Davidson)
53. Volkswagen
67. Audi
72. Hyundai
75. Porsche
90. Lexus
93. Ferrari

Personally, I find Interbrand's methodology is too focused on overall financial performance doesn't do enough to measure the price-premium an individual brand can command. Which is why Toyota hits the top spot. So if you compare the following three dimensions for the luxury brands, the order changes:

(1) Total value of sales: Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Lexus, Ferrari
(2) Total unit sales: BMW, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus, Porsche, Ferrari
(3) Relative price premium: Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Lexus,

If you average-out these three dimensions you still get Mercedes-Benz in first place, and BMW in second, but Porsche rises to third place, Audi fourth, Ferrari fifth and Lexus sixth. (How the downturn has changed this is hard to see until we get 2008 numbers from all the major players. Expect to see BMW in meltdown mode.)

Moreover, based on market research that measures brand perception and image, as good as Audi is, it still lags behind MB, BMW and Porsche and even Lexus (but only in USA). Can Audi ever overtake MB and BMW? if they invest enough money in new products, then maybe yes. And just look at the range of new cars in the Audi pipeline.

With a global recession affecting car sales everywhere, Audi's goal of overtaking BMW may be achieved, but at a much lower level than the 1.5 million cars sold annually that they hoped. An easier strategy for the Volkswagen Group may be to invest in Porsche in order to sell a wider range of cars, sold in greater volumes than before and at much higher prices.

This is what seems to be happening. Porsche is at one end of the brand spectrum and VW is at the other with Audi in the middle. This strategy would prevent Audi from competing with core products: 911, Panamera, Cayenne and Boxter plus Golf, Passat, Polo and Touraeg. So expect A3 to cost much more than Golf and be much more differentiated, A4 has already moved up in size and cost relative to Passat, Q7 remains a massive 7-seater rather than a 5-seater, and A5 4-door coupe and A7 4-door coupe could merge into a single model: the fastback.

The VW BlueSport Concept previews a low-end VW sports car, but also a replacement for the old Porsche 914, not an Audi R4. As a Porsche, this would come in below the Boxter but sell for near Boxter prices. Boxter/ Cayman would move up a niche, clearing space for TT in between. 911 would move up beyond R8 to become a true supercar with a brand new chassis. R8 is unlikely to be replaced.

The point is that this strategy favours Porsche and VW above Audi, because Audi's will always be a compromise in terms of volumes and price premium. This means that Audi must identify new market niches, innovation opportunities, and blur the lines between categories. That should give us some amazing cars and terrific value.

If such a strategy doesn't work, then VW might well sell a stake to a financial buyer. Everyone said it was madness for Ford to sell its luxury brands, but now it has, it is on the verge of making money again.

[Leadfoot]

Unlike Ford premium brands Audi does make money, more per car sold than either VW or BMW. To sell off Audi would not make sence to me at least, Porsche as a brand sits too far up the price/image scale to compliment VW, there is a huge gap which only Audi can fill.

I do agree that fine tuning of products is required to make the group as a whole work efficiently but I see this more as Audi duplicating more with both brands (VW and Porsche) VW on the smaller models and Porsche on the larger ones.

[AndyBG]

Prob;em is that we can end up with situation where no one is satisfiyed, B/C Porsche will get all the ''cherry on the cake'' positions, VW will be on the ''trone'' of the ordinary cars, with Golf, Polo..., etc. Where that lives Audi...? Somwhere in the middle, making boring sedans for older people...? I can't imagine Audi like that. Audi is on the BIG, BIG way up, and that can't be stoped, problem is that on the Audis way, in front of Audi is Porsche, and it isn't going to move, more and more it seems to that Porsche will ''push the Audi off the way''... And there I find foundation for Tailpipes story, and posibilty that Audi could be ''on sale''...

None of these things I wouldn't like to happend!

[tailpipe]

I don't think anyone at Volkswagen or Audi or Bentley or Lamborghini wanted Porsche to effectively take control of the Group, but this is what has happened.

I don't think anything is going to happen to Audi in the short term and Porsche management will definitely try to help Audi remain a success - it would be utter madness to deliberately undermine it - but Porsche wishing to carve its own success will inevitably restrict what Audi can do so, as AndyBG says, Audi could end up producing boring cars for old people.

I don't know how this scenario will play out, but it doesn't look good for all the reasons already stated. We are witnessing a massive consolidation within the Auto industry and only the fittest will survive. But Audi has a very powerful secret weapon up its sleeve - Ferdinand Piech. Although a family shareholder in Porsche, and Chairman of the Volkswagen Group, he spent his most formative years working at Audi. He has a deep affection for the brand. It could be him who takes Audi solo. If he did, then no one need worry. He was the architect of Audi's success from the original Quattro to the R8. Piech is to Volkswagen and Audi what Steve Jobs is to Apple.

As much as I respect Porsche, it lives off a car design based on the original Beetle. That's not what i call innovative. The Cayenne is ugly, thirsty and poor value compared to many similar SUVs. I am not convinced that the Panamera will be better than a Mercedes-Benz CLS. Porsche has to do something radical if it is to survive.

Now that it owns VW it has everything it needs to develop very exciting new models. But like Ford, VW is now comprised of so many brands, it may need to cull a few to save money.

[Audiphile]

Tailpipe, I understand where you are coming from. And yes all the marketing etc. say this and that. But things have changed. Taking out the discussion regarding Porsche or VAG for a moment and looking at Audi solely, it is very evident if one studies the current business facts that Audi has become thee most successful premium brand entering 2009. 2008 has been as watershed for automakers especially those that sold their soul for volume and quick profit regardless of their brand qualities. No longer can BMW and MB hide behind smoke and mirrors of perceived prestige or otherwise. BMW is in serious trouble regardless of what others may have said. Profit and volume are sinking faster than the Titanic did with net profit per unit, productivity, residual values, and all other sustainable factors not looking very good for BMW in the forseeable future. They will have to just maintain status quo for the next couple of years to sustain themselves or wind up being swallowed by a bigger player. On the other hand, Audi has maintained a very conservative growth strategy based on profit and volume. Now Audi is leading in many areas including the all important one net profit per unit sold and residual value, not to mention quality indexes. Volume is not a determinant of success in today's automotive market. Everyone knocked Audi for being too slow, but at the end of THIS day, it is Audi the tortoise that has surprised the hare BMW and MB. Add to this Audi's huge dedication to racing, one wonders what happened to BMW and MB in this regard. F1 is highly overrated. Now everyone wants to come to Le Mans to challenge Audi. Just look at Aston Martin thinking it can play with Audi at Le Mans as Peugueot thougth it could.

As one Audi enthusiast told me recently, in the late 90s BMW sold its soul and Audi regained its soul that it lost to WWII. It is no longer a market of BMW and MB only. Audi has come to play. For anyone passionate about Audi, go to tv.audi.com. Once on the site, click on BOX 3 (Sports Center). Once in the Sports Center section, scroll up or down till you find the video Pure Adrenaline. Click and play (do it in full screen). You'll know what the meaning of Audi is then.

The next A8L will further drive the knife deeper into the belly of the S-Class and 7-Series for premium hegemony as Audi surpasses them in many respects. BMW has yet to answer the R8 V8 yet alone the R8 V10. The US remains Audi's only weakness, but another 5 years that will change easily. As long as Audi is left alone and Porsche doesn't leech too much off them, then Audi's goal of number one premium brand in both prestige and culture should be attainable. Let's hope so.

[tailpipe]

Audiphile,

Great post, thank you.

Yes, I agree that Audi has eclipsed BMW totally. It is very impressive how Audi has grown in stature. The last RS4 really was an incredible product and showed just how good it has become at a technical level. Even now, it still holds it own against C63s, M3s and ISFs. The R8, new TT, A5, new A4 and RS6 have all been a stunning progression of successful launches. (Pity about the Q7 and Q5). meanwhile, all BMW has come up with is a very bland new 7-Series, and the absurd X6. It has completely lost the plot with the 3-Series and 5-Series, while the 1-Series is an also ran against A3/ Golf and even the A-Class. in Germany, the Audi A4 now outsells the 3-Series. Ask me who I blame for this and I say Chris Bangle.

That said, I do not agree with your comments about Mercedes-Benz. It is still the most powerful premium brand and by quite a margin. It has two real winners in its stable: the S-Class is the world's best selling limo and outsells both the A8 and 7-Series put together; the C-Class is the exec segment best seller globally. The progressive reinvention of the brand under Dr Z. is impressive. New E-Class looks good on paper (although styling is ugly to my eyes) and next A-Class (which now follows same layout as Golf) should give even Volkswagen a scare. Mercedes-Benz lost ground in late 90s through poor quality. But now is coming back strong.

[Leadfoot]

I wouldn't be surprised if almost all of BMW's problems coming from their aggressive pricing in the USA, an M3 cost fractionally more than a S5 there so it's plain to see how much subsidising BMW are doing to get market share.


What Audi have done is build it's success and sales volumes in markets where it still much profit and as you said, they will eventually get control of the US market in the next 5~8 years when MB and BMW have to increase prices to stay afloat. Who in the US would stay loyal to either brand if they happen to be asked to play another 15%. ;)

Flood the market with product only service to drive down the second hand value.

[tvrfan]

porsche said and audi boss too, that porsche wont control audis model management or something. they cant, in a german AMS there was a read, which claimes that porsche CANT control audis model politicy.

i think audis future will be bright and fine, and with porsche they are growing much more in future. also i think a R8 successor will be there, dont be worry.

[The Pretender]

Porsche own a big part of VW and VW own a smaller part of Audi, Porsche can't have control over Audi's future.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

Porsche own a big part of VW and VW own a smaller part of Audi, Porsche can't have control over Audi's future.

Jarod.

If VW have a say in Audi affairs then I can't see how Porsche wouldn't now have some input no matter how small.

[tvrfan]

sure porsche has a little influence in audi but its more based on synergie effects. nothing more.

[Audiphile]

Yes Tailpipe, Mercedes-Benz is still large. But you really need to look at their growth of the last several years. They have been extremely stagnant with very little positive growth. For example, in 2008, Audi surpassed MB in sales volume quite often. If you examine the sales numbers in Europe of Audi vs. MB (and BMW for that matter), Audi has been easily outpacing Mercedes-Benz in Europe and crushing them in China. If you remove the crappy MB cars like the Vento, etc. that MB uses to fluff up there numbers then you really can see that MB will eventually move behind Audi as a brand. The S-Class has done well when initially introduced, but now has seen sales tank. At least the A8 has maintained and actually gained sales volume globally. That says alot about Audi prestige and quality. Profit at MB has tanked at least 45% from last year and they have been susidizing the S-Klasse to the point that seeing one on the road is akin to wearing gaudy jewelry. MB design in my little opinion has taken a nose-dive as MBs look old and tired (The new E-Class has no flow to it. It looks choppy). While Audi design is actually quite artistic, clean, and looks substantial as in the new A7, A5, or R8. The current A8L holds an elegant, refined, and yet subtle design that shows substance and intelligence, not a cheap form of bling that is no longer cool to be associated with. This personna is evident in current Audi culture and how Audi seems to be presenting itself as a premium brand. I think this has much resonnance with today's buyer. MB builds very good cars (or perceived that they do - there is a bit halo effect to the brand that it does not deserve. Just look at the cheap interior of the new C-Klasse. Even Car & Driver stated that the new C-Klasse misses the mark against Audi and BMW).

If MB sales numbers continue to respond as they do then it is just a matter of 1-2 years till Audi passes them and does so without having crap like Ventos, etc. to do it with. The upcoming A1 will easily play to Audi's strengths of building high quality sporty small cars, something MB does not know how to do. Finally, MB continues to heavily subsidize sales volumes which only will further hurt there image in the long run. In GB, MB has already lost the war against Audi and BMW. In Germany, the A4, the A6 outpace the C and and E-Klasse and this is evident now in many markets. So, yes MB is strong, but not that much. Audi is slowly tightening the noose around them.

By the way, these are great posts by everyone. Thanks.

[AndyBG]

Does anybody have data about Audi, Merc' and BMW sales in '08... I would like to how are compared A4, A6 and A8 with their rivals, separately, Europe and US.

[Audiphile]

I can only give you numbers through 11/08 for Western Europe: (November and 11 months)



A4: 242,630
3-Series: 236,149
C-Class: 199,891

A6: 100,230
5-Series: 98,514
E-Class: 74,282


A8-Series: 8473
7-Series: 7171
S-Class: 16125

Source: ANE


US Sales of course would have Audi at a disadvantage relative to BMW and MB. Americans are still trying to catch up to the rest of the world.

[AndyBG]

A6 outsells 5 series, that is suprise for me. Its interesting how Audi and BMW are ''neck to neck'', while Merc' is either much down or much up...

[tvrfan]

one have wrote that the next gen D4 A8 will have RWD. thats wrong. next Gen A8 will be based on MLP. and will be platform for more VAG products (bentley ....). so its also wrong that audi will bring a RWD platform. thats wrong. audi will never do an RWD car!

[Leadfoot]

There is so much speculation regarding the what may be with future Audi products because of Porsche's involvement that I can't really add anything to this discussion.

[roadrunner]

A6 outsells 5 series, that is suprise for me. ...

To my understanding the A6 is leading the segment worldwide...

[AndyBG]

To my understanding the A6 is leading the segment worldwide...

I really wasn't awear of that..., honestly, forme 5 series is better package, over all, but I'm glad to see that A6 sells better...

[tailpipe]

Latest numbers will be available in March, from Automotive News, the global industry monthly newspaper. All manufacturers have suffered devastating sales. Audi's goal of growing to 1.5 million in tatters until economy recovers. BMW has apparently fallen off a cliff. I'll be following this closely so stand by for more input on this.

UK's Car Magazine just scored a rare interview with Rupert Stadler, Audi's CEO, to be published next Monday. Should be very interesting reading.

[tailpipe]

one have wrote that the next gen D4 A8 will have RWD. thats wrong. next Gen A8 will be based on MLP. and will be platform for more VAG products (bentley ....). so its also wrong that audi will bring a RWD platform. thats wrong. audi will never do an RWD car!

I thought A8 was going to get MLP platform too. Not correct. New premium executive class platform has been developed for Porsche Panamera, Lamborghini Estoque, Bentley Continental, Phaeton and A8. Platform is aluminium for all models to save weight. Panamera and Estoque will both available as RWD and 4WD, i.e. platform optimized for RWD and 4WD not FWD.

It doesn't make sense to have two different platforms for all these cars. The volumes don't justify it. Besides they are all more or less the same size. It may be that A8 is only available as a Quattro. What is certain is that Porsche and Lamborghini would never use a FWD platform.

[The Pretender]

I thought A8 was going to get MLP platform too. Not correct. New premium executive class platform has been developed for Porsche Panamera, Lamborghini Estoque, Bentley Continental, Phaeton and A8. Platform is aluminium for all models to save weight. Panamera and Estoque will both available as RWD and 4WD, i.e. platform optimized for RWD and 4WD not FWD.

It doesn't make sense to have two different platforms for all these cars. The volumes don't justify it. Besides they are all more or less the same size. It may be that A8 is only available as a Quattro. What is certain is that Porsche and Lamborghini would never use a FWD platform.
This sound very good to me if this is fact.
The new Audi S8 quattro with 5.0 V10 TFSI engine will be a awesome car to drive.

Jarod.

[tvrfan]

tailpipe, i cant believe you sorry ^^. so much magazines in late has written that the new Audi A8 will be based on MLP with FWD and Quattro. Audi wont never get RWD cars. Trust me.

[tvrfan]

From Car and Driver Blog, Wednesday, November 26, 2008


The Estoque will be built on Audi's modular-longitudinal platform, which is the base of a number of new models, including the current Audi A4 and A5, the next-generation A6 and A8, the forthcoming all-new A7, and the 2013 VW Phaeton. There is very little component sharing with the recently revealed Porsche Panamera, which uses a standalone platform close to that of the Porsche Cayenne, Audi Q7, and VW Touareg SUVs.


http://www.caranddriver.com/blog/labels/A7.html

[AndyBG]

I say, lets wait for a little more, and see! Tailpipes story have much more ''grounds'' in my eyes, plus, as I love A8 very much, it will be much better for it to be based on the platform together with those great cars. Maybe next A8 will be ''quattro'' only, and isn't bad thing..., is it? Next Phaeton to, while Panamera and Estoque will combine both.

[tailpipe]

The Estoque, Porsche Panamera, Bentley Continental and next generation Audi A8 will all share the same platform. If this is the MLP platform as used in the current A4, A5, and Q5 models then it begs the question: what exactly is the MLP platform?

At present, we know that it is the basis of the current mid-size Audi models, (A4, A5 and Q5 models and soon to be revealed replacement A6 model). We also know that the current A8 has a unique aluminium spaceframe platform (D3 platform) that is different to that of both the VW Phaeton and Bentley Continental (D2 platform). We also know that the platform of the Panamera and Estoque as well as the next Bentley and Phaeton models will all be aluminium to save weight and increase performance. We can also be certain that next A8 will also be aluminium - anything else would be a step backward.

But the MLP platform is steel not aluminium. It could be that the basic architecture is retained but it adds a significant amount of aluminium, i.e. is a hybrid platform like the TT with both steel and aluminium. Whatever it is, it is not the same basic MLP platform used in the A4, A5, Q5 and A6.

What is interesting about this discussion is that neither Audi nor Porsche are being totally open about what platform is being used for which model. It's easy to understand why: imagine how buyers of the £160,000 Estoque would feel if they discovered that their car is essentially the same as a £25,000 A4. In short: pissed off!

So, while I am sure that a common architecture was created, we need to remember that the M of MLP stands for modular. The key element of the platform for mid-range Audis is that it has moved the differential infront of the gearbox allowing the engine to be located 4" further behind the front axle, improving weight distribution. In other words, it is optimized fro FWD cars. Since Panamera, Estoque and Bentley will be either RWD or AWD cars, expect the platform they use to be different from the A4.

IMPORTANT POINT: If Panamera is using plain old MLP platfrom then A4 represents incredible value! B8 RS4 should be the best value supercar by miles, but everyone here already knows that...

[AndyBG]

Nothing to add ^^^, I think you have very good point there.

Current Audis course is going to more, and more serious cars.

[The Pretender]

: what exactly is the MLP platform?
Modular Longitudinal Platform.

Jarod.

[tvrfan]

here you go:


Ingolstadt Readies its Next-Gen Flagship, and You're Going to Want One

By Jens Meiners

ANN ARBOR, Mich., December 2008 – Car and Driver - Audi is charging ahead with its third-generation A8, set to be unveiled at the Frankfurt auto show in the fall of 2009. Once released, it will battle a slightly face-lifted Mercedes-Benz S-class, expected to be unveiled next spring, and BMW's all-new 2009 7-series. But unlike the rather conservative 7-series, which backed away from the audacious styling of its predecessor, the next Audi A8 will show a new look and carry the brand forward stylistically.

Audi's chief designer Stefan Sielaff explains: "The first generation was very dogmatic and product-design-like. With the second generation, the theme was 'elegance'—softer, flowing lines. The upcoming third generation will be stronger, sharper, and more
precise."

Highlighting the Technology Within
While the design of the current, second-generation car is pleasing to our eyes, you could argue that it doesn’t properly convey the advanced chassis technology under the skin—the A8’s all-aluminum structure is lighter and stronger than those of its steel-intensive competition. The next A8 continues to use an aluminum space frame and aluminum exterior panels, all of which bring weight down compared to a conventional steel design. Sielaff says that the next-gen Audi A8’s styling will play up that distinction. "It will highlight the aluminum aspect, and it will have a strong three-dimensional theme. In that respect, the next A8 will be the first of a new styling language at Audi. We are entering a new phase with a clear top-down strategy."

The A8 will be futuristic, but it will also have enough chrome to please customers in emerging markets such as Russia and China. There will be both short- and long-wheelbase versions, the latter to be launched in mid-2010. The A8 uses Audi's new modular longitudinal architecture, introduced on the A5, A4, and Q5. Compared to the current A8, the front axle is shifted forward.

The A8 will keep the Quattro all-wheel-drive system, but an entry-level front-wheel-drive version is again possible if the market demands it. In Europe, such a model is currently offered as an especially fuel-efficient alternative. Initial engine offerings will likely include a 4.2-liter gasoline V-8 and a 4.2-liter V-8 turbo-diesel, both equipped with an all-new, ZF-sourced eight-speed automatic (a gearbox which will simultaneously go into the BMW 7-series). Audi will also offer its 3.0-liter V-6 turbo-diesel, an extremely popular engine in Europe, and the supercharged 3.0-liter V-6 from the A6 and S4. And even though the current W-12 engine is no more than a footnote in the A8's European home market, expect Russia and China to demand a successor of the prestigious powerplant. Audi could also offer a version of the V-12 turbo-diesel introduced in the Q7, although modifications would be required to fit this big and heavy unit into the A8's engine bay. Expect the supercharged six and the 4.2-liter gas V-8 in U.S.-market A8s. If the W-12 happens, it will almost definitely once again be available to U.S. customers.

We expect the next S8 to become available sometime in late 2010 or early 2011, and it will use the turbocharged V-10 found in the high-performance, Euro-only RS6. It will likely be even more powerful than the RS6, though, which could mean 600 hp—or more.

A Fantastic Interior Gets Better, the Dance Moves Get Sportier Audi engineers tell us to pay special attention to the interior, which they say represents as much a step forward as does the exterior. A large center screen and a new MMI architecture will be "more innovative" than the current system. We hope Audi won't tinker too much with MMI, a system we’ve always liked.

On the road, we expect the A8 to give the BMW 7-series a fight for the title of sportiest offering in the segment. The A8's all-wheel-drive system will be rear-biased, and it will be available with the same torque-vectoring system ("sport differential") that we found impressive during our drive of the latest S4.

In Europe and China, the current A8 has caught up with the 7-series and S-class in terms of sales and image. With the next generation, Audi may be able to pull off the same trick in North America.





http://www.aluminum.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=27560&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm

[AndyBG]

I don't think this article is 100% ''insider''. The part about MLP, I can't tell is it correct, but when it comes to engines that isn't correct. A8 will use 4.0 T, and that unit will replace 4.2. Old 4.2 want be finding its place in A8s line up.

[tvrfan]

yeah thats right. but i cant believe what tailpipe said. the new A8 will get used MLP and aluminum. thats for sure. next A6 too. and all other magazines and rumors are saying the same!

[youry]

and they forget to mention about the new 4.0 L V8 TFSI engine which we know is goignto be released in the new A8

[tailpipe]

Yes, Tyrfan, but I'm trying to read behind the marketing hype published by the magazines to understand what is really going on. What car companies tell journalists is primarily dictated by the need to sell cars rather than tell the truth!!!!

Though I know people in the industry, both within Audi and key suppliers of Audi, even internal Audi employees don't know everything. It's how company secrets are kept secret. But educated guesswork and debate can uncover what is really going on. That's why this forum is so interesting.

In the article you quoted, it says that A8 will use the MLP architecture not the MLP platform. This seems to suggest that MLP is not a single chassis but a series of parts - like Lego that can be used together. You have a basic 3-box structure: engine compartment, cabin structure, and rear end. Different variations allow for a variety of models to be produced very inexpensively because the key component 'hard points' are all located in the same place. For example, look at the Lamborghini Estoque and compare it to the Porsche Panamera. The proportions are almost identical. What these designs also show is that while the platform can be extended in length, it can also be extended in width.

If this is correct, and of course, it is only a hypothesis, then it is right to assume that the bias between FWD and RWD and AWd can be tuned depending on the model.

[AndyBG]

Audis high positioned managers of lots of countries don't know NOTHING but stupid press releases, about Audis future plans...

[Cargo8]

Audi has stated that they will never make a RWD car because it is plainly unsafe (it is in a quote somewhere); then again, M Division said they'd never make SUVs...

[tailpipe]

Martin Winterkorn (now head of entire VW Group) when he was boss of Audi wanted to move A4, A6 and A8 over to rear-wheel drive back in 2004, but plan was vetoed by Bernd Pischestreider (ex-head of entire VW Group).

The alternative was to develop radically dynamic FWD solution, i.e. gearbox in front of engine to that entire motor could be behind front axle. This is what was promised with MLP. Unfortunately, while it moved the engine back, it did not do so by enough to significantly enhance weight distribution and handling balance. In other words, MLP was a HUGE disappointment. Reason for half-hearted effort was engineering cost.

This is why A4 is still no dynamic match for 3-Series or C-Class without Quattro. Even with Quattro there is a weight penalty that introduces other compromises such as economy. I know die-hard Audi fans will refute this comment, but it is the consensus view of the motoring press. Last year, BMW still outsold Audi globally so customers seem to share the same view.

The failure of MLP to deliver a radical solution has damaged Audi's credibility. A4 is thus still viewed as a more expensive VW not a true competitor to 3-Series and C-Class.

The question is what will Audi do next? RWD or better FWD balance with revised MLP? I am looking forward to hearing the answer.

[roadrunner]

...

This is why A4 is still no dynamic match for 3-Series or C-Class without Quattro. Even with Quattro there is a weight penalty that introduces other compromises such as economy. I know die-hard Audi fans will refute this comment, but it is the consensus view of the motoring press. Last year, BMW still outsold Audi globally so customers seem to share the same view.

The failure of MLP to deliver a radical solution has damaged Audi's credibility. A4 is thus still viewed as a more expensive VW not a true competitor to 3-Series and C-Class.



tailpipe, i really value your opinion & infos, BUT now we start to turn in a circle.

Yes, BMW sold more than Audi in 2008, but the gap narrowed (especially if you take Mini out of the equasion). This would be an indicator of increasing appeal of Audi to the customers, not otherwise. and all this whitout RWD

And A4 being a more expensive Passat, cammon - you know better than that. This might have been true for the Passat predesessor, which used the same longitutonal plattform of the A4, but not nowadays. Audi achieved a big leap with the B7 A4 (i know, that it was baasically a FL, but a major one).

And how can you compare the B8 A4 to the Passat is beyond my understanding (leaving size aside, which is not a performance criteria for me). The look & feel, finish and image are way appart. Not talking about the handling.

[AndyBG]

This is why A4 is still no dynamic match for 3-Series or C-Class


It is dynamic match for those two, but only in ''small power'' units, (2.0 TDI 143 and 1.8 T)

A4 is thus still viewed as a more expensive VW not a true competitor to 3-Series and C-Class.

Can't agree on this one with you, B8 A4 is HUGE leap forward for Audi, and many people, never considering Audi, gonne for B8 A4.

[tvrfan]

B8 A4 has a great handling. ive driven the 2.0 TDI 170hp front. and it has a nice cornering. audi would never build a RWD car. audi has created MLP. audi isnt so dump to devoplment such a expensive car platform and cancel it for RWD layout. this wont happen. ALSO if audi would go RWD layout then the Quattro will be not be the same as before. because the torsen diff. wont fit in RWD layout. so the quattro on RWD platform wont be as good as before. SO audi wont throw there heritage away. customers will go away then. that wont never happen. audi knows that and will be not so stupid.

[tailpipe]

Guys,

There's a big difference between what you and I believe and what the market believes. Ultimately, it is the consensus behaviour of buyers that defines an objective perception of Audi's performance relative to competitors. We are all Audi fans, which is why we enjoy this forum of discussion. But whatever we believe, subjectively or objectively, market facts speak for themselves.

According to most motoring journalists, both the 3-Series and C-Class handle better than the B8 A4. That's what buyers read. And if people want the best handling car, they may choose a BMW or Mercedes above an Audi. But what sales of these cars tells us is that customers value other qualities above RWD handling. Build, reliability, technology, interior design, exterior styling and so on are all important.

Audi's rapid growth and increased market share shows that the sum of an Audi's parts is greater than a BMW's. While Audi has been doing great things, BMW is stagnating. Meanwhile, Mercedes-Benz is beginning to recover its reputation for quality so remains a threat.

Yes, B8 A4 is a huge leap forward, but other brands, like Lexus, are also moving ahead. Personally, I don't think B8 A4 is an expensive Passat - but there are plenty of people who do. That's the point.

So what this discussion is ultimately about is: WHAT MUST AUDI DO TO CHANGE PERCEPTION OF ITS CARS SO THAT IT IS SEEN AS A SUPERIOR BRAND TO BMW AND MERCEDES-BENZ?

Adopting rear wheel drive must be considered as an option, but if it is rejected, the decision must be very well explained to customers, because Audi's competitors are all telling their customers that FWD is inferior.

For the record, I think the A4 is a very, very good car (I also think the Passat is excellent too!) - but B8 MLP was not the technological leap forward I hoped it would be. I think moving the engine back further would have had such a significant effect on handling that Audi would have won the FWD versus RWD debate without adopting RWD. Was MLP was a decision driven by the need maximize volumes and minimize costs OR the desire to create a better driver's car? HMMM.... INTERESTING QUESTION.

Will Audi ever adopt rear-wheel drive? Well, never say never. Let's see, shall we.

[AndyBG]

You have point. And, as I earlier said, I don't have nothing against that if Audi goes RWD way, with ''quattro'' as option of course.

[tvrfan]

You have point. And, as I earlier said, I don't have nothing against that if Audi goes RWD way, with ''quattro'' as option of course.

when audi goes RWD then for A4, A6, A8, A7. otherwise it wouldnt make sense. but look if audi would do that. quattro will be no the same with fwd layout. as i said with RWD layout the torsen diff wont fit with RWD layout. so audi must design the quattro completly new. and maybe the quattro will be not so good as before. audi cant do that and they know it. because few customers will go away. also look if audi has RWD platform. does make quattro sense then? not for me. look at E92 M3 with RWD. it puts the power down very well. also with downsizing the future engines wont probably be so powerful as yet. and also the weight will go down. so with RWD layout Audi doesnt need quattro for next RS4, RS6, RS4 (the list goes on). so quattro will be dead. do you know what i mean? i think audi has just quattro for RS models or S models because FWD wont handle the power and the handling would be incredible. that means with RWD audis the quattro doesnt make sense than before

[AndyBG]

Well, does that lead us to a question, do we need ''quattro'' at all...?

[AndyBG]

So, after horse power wars, are entering the ''downsizing wars''...?

http://www.leftlanenews.com/audi-s4-and-s5-to-go-four-cylinder.html