BMW in problems...?

[AndyBG]

Cloudy over Munchen...

http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-bmw-to-apply-for-government-aid.html

[itisme]

Cloudy over Munchen...

http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-bmw-to-apply-for-government-aid.html

....not really

as far as I know and followed the statements BMW thinks about their finacial part the BMW Bank to go for the government aid for banks in difficulties to finance new projekts, because in this though times it's difficult for every car maker to get the hands on new credits.

[AndyBG]

So, BMW is not in problems... :D

[itisme]

So, BMW is not in problems... :D

depends ;)

not better or worse than others...

:cheers:

[tailpipe]

BMW is in very serious trouble. Not only does it need government money to pay its debts, sales have fallen off a cliff across all classes - much worse decline than Mercedes or VW/Audi /Porsche.

Golf and Audi A3 outselling 1-Series dramatically
C-Class and A4 outselling 3-Series
A6 and E-Class narrowly outselling 5-Series
S-Class and Lexus LS outselling 7-Series
Cayenne/ Touareg and ML-Class outselling X5

BMW doesn't have a winner in any category. One ray of light is M3. But this isn't enough to save it.

Only Mini is saving BMW from disaster. That's ironic.

Rumour has it Mercedes-Benz and BMW may merge. I don't know whether that's true, but it's going to be very interesting to see what happens.

[AndyBG]

BMW doesn't have a winner in any category. One ray of light is M3. But this isn't enough to save it.

Only Mini is saving BMW from disaster. That's ironic.

Rumour has it Mercedes-Benz and BMW may merge. I don't know whether that's true, but it's going to be very interesting to see what happens.

Complete truth, MINI saved BMW from total disaster. New 7 series is redicolous.

Mercedes and BMW are much more closer to a merge than we all can think about. My guess is that when Porsche take over VAG more than 80%, BMW and MB will go public...

[M3 owner]

Rumour has it Mercedes-Benz and BMW may merge.

I don’t believe that 4 a second.U would have more chance of seeing the IDF & Hamas merge than u have of seeing BMW & Merc merge.

[Erik]

BMW doesn't have a winner in any category. One ray of light is M3. But this isn't enough to save it.

I'd like to see the sales figures of the new M3 vs. the old M3 E46.

I presume there's a drastic difference, the old M3 must have sold so much better?

[tailpipe]

I don’t believe that 4 a second.U would have more chance of seeing the IDF & Hamas merge than u have of seeing BMW & Merc merge.

be prepared to eat your words. I never report anything that doesn't have a basis in fact.

[tailpipe]

I'd like to see the sales figures of the new M3 vs. the old M3 E46.

I presume there's a drastic difference, the old M3 must have sold so much better?

Yes. M3 E46 sold very well. To early to provide accurate comparison, but early estimates in UK (SMMT) suggest new version is doing barely 25% of previous car's sales. Five reasons for this:

1. New M3 is 25% more expensive than previous one - big leap in cost
2. Credit crunch - financing such a car is more difficult than before
3. Cayman S - now selling very will thanks to PDK clutch - hardcore appeal
4. C63 selling better than any previous AMG model - practical appeal
5. Petrol prices / environmental pressure

I could also mention that 4.0 litre V8 is incredibly thirsty, iDrive still a hassle to use, ugly interior styling and declining build quality relative to key competitors, but these are minor issues compared to those listed above.

[AndyBG]

Yes. M3 E46 sold very well. To early to provide accurate comparison, but early estimates in UK (SMMT) suggest new version is doing barely 25% of previous car's sales. Five reasons for this:

1. New M3 is 25% more expensive than previous one - big leap in cost
2. Credit crunch - financing such a car is more difficult than before
3. Cayman S - now selling very will thanks to PDK clutch - hardcore appeal
4. C63 selling better than any previous AMG model - practical appeal
5. Petrol prices / environmental pressure

I could also mention that 4.0 litre V8 is incredibly thirsty, iDrive still a hassle to use, ugly interior styling and declining build quality relative to key competitors, but these are minor issues compared to those listed above.

I think that you are 100% wright...

[Erik]

No, he forgot the fact that the RS4 was there as well as an option :hihi:

:rs4addict

[AndyBG]

Yes, and now S4 to beat the S*** out of 335i... :D

[tailpipe]

BMW is selling more Rolls-Royces than 7-Series!!!!!!!!!!

[Erik]

BMW is selling more Rolls-Royces than 7-Series!!!!!!!!!!

Really?

I would love to see the facts sheet to prove that. :cool2:

[Leadfoot]

Rumour has it Mercedes-Benz and BMW may merge. I don't know whether that's true, but it's going to be very interesting to see what happens.

I believe that is more than just a rumour, it's nearly certain given the strength that Porsche's bid for VAG has put both these two companies in financially. Unless the economy bounces back within the next 12 months I think we can expect something to be said within the next 18 months.

[tailpipe]

I believe that is more than just a rumour, it's nearly certain given the strength that Porsche's bid for VAG has put both these two companies in financially. Unless the economy bounces back within the next 12 months I think we can expect something to be said within the next 18 months.

I would say within 18 weeks not months!!!!!!!!!!!!

Merc wants Mini.

BMW loves to say how sales are growing year on year and the truth is sales have grown - but nothing like how sales have grown for Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/ Audi. So relative to the other premium German brands BMW is in decline. Look at sales growth curves for Germany, UK, France, Spain, Italy and the USA and the picture becomes clear.

Actually, I blame this not on BMW's engineering but on its design. Call it the Bangle effect. BMW has lost its cachet. In my view, the only way BMW could remain independent would be to hire someone like Leonardo Fioravanti, Henrik Fisker, Martin Smith or Klaus Bischoff to great fanfare and to develop a brand new design language that is dramatically different yet safe while avoiding Chris Bangle's odd detailing which runs against all prevailing design trends. (Mercedes-Benz just hired up-and-coming Hyundai design chief, Joel Piaskowski, to sort out the mess that is their current styling - at least it isn't quite as bad as BMW's. Look at the Nissan 370Z if you want to know where car design is going.) However, it may already be too late.

If Mercedes-Benz got Mini that would solve its small car problem. If it got Rolls-Royce, that would solve its Maybach problem. I predict 7-Series would die. i don't know what would happen with 3 and 5-Series, but the product overlap would be enormous.

[AndyBG]

Thee is truth in this. MBs small cars are rubish, and Maybach isn't at its top. But, neither is BMW managed to achieve its goal with Rolls Royce. VW did MUCH better with Bentley.

[AndyBG]

BMWs M division has no troubles, or it is just the impression...

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2009/02/bmw-m-model-sales-up-50-in-2008.html

[tailpipe]

Hardly surprising that sales were up, 2008 was the year they launched the new M3.
Prior to that, sales of E46 M3 had stopped, creating pent-up demand among M-Sport loyalists, and M5 was not doing very well due to high price and mixed reviews about performance. M6 selling in small volumes like Z4M. So you can see how new M3 would have impacted sales. I'm surprised sales were up by so little.

But to give BMW its due, the new M3 is a nice machine. Not sure it is better than C63 or ISF which both seem a little more special. Personally, I'm waiting for next RS4.

[AndyBG]

Hardly surprising that sales were up, 2008 was the year they launched the new M3.
Prior to that, sales of E46 M3 had stopped, creating pent-up demand among M-Sport loyalists, and M5 was not doing very well due to high price and mixed reviews about performance. M6 selling in small volumes like Z4M. So you can see how new M3 would have impacted sales. I'm surprised sales were up by so little.

But to give BMW its due, the new M3 is a nice machine. Not sure it is better than C63 or ISF which both seem a little more special. Personally, I'm waiting for next RS4.

Do you expect next RS 4 to be very similar to RS 5, something like M3 Coupe/M3 sedan, or you think that RS 4 will be the ''story for it self''...?

[kju]

this discussion is very very interesting!
i also think that tailpipe has 100 % right.
BMW just look so ugly. they have to design the brand completely new.
I read the article of Autobild Sportscars RS6 sedan vs M5 vs Alpina M5 and E63 AMG.
If you looked at the picture of the RS6 cockpit for one minute and than on the Alpinas(5er bmw) or M5 cockpit it was like a slap in the face...WOOD interior and the ugly steering wheel and design. The colors of the tachometer did not fit to anything else etc...They just dont know how to design. (of course RS6 won)
And than there is this ridiculous 7series. I mean who is going to buy a 7er if you can have a S-Class...
What i also dont understand is the price of mercedes Maybach. I just dont understand why a (little bit tuned and redesigned) S-Class car can cost 0.5 Million Euros. i mean ok 200.000 € ok , than it would be in bentley price-range... but 500.000 € ??? just senseless.

[AndyBG]

So, BREAKING NEWS..., Bangle steps down!

http://www.leftlanenews.com/breaking-bmw-design-chief-bangle-quits-job.html

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090203.008/bangle-quits-bmw-and-auto-industry-altogether

[tailpipe]

So, BREAKING NEWS..., Bangle steps down!

http://www.leftlanenews.com/breaking-bmw-design-chief-bangle-quits-job.html

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090203.008/bangle-quits-bmw-and-auto-industry-altogether

About time too.

My guess is that Bangle was almost certainly fired.

BMW has to signal change if it is going to survive. Since its engineering is still excellent by any objective standard, design was the one area that needed to be re-invented. So he had to go.

Another area that needs rapid re-invention is marketing. Look how brilliantly Audi has expanded its product portfolio. BMW has been incredibly slow to develop a CLS competition, for example., It's only real innovation has been the X6 - a car that has all the disadvantages of an SUV and none of the advantages and little else.

That said, both Rolls-Royce and BMW have been great successes. Rolls is way ahead of Maybach and Bentley in terms of prestige image. Mini has been a major miracle in terms of brand reinvention. So BMW can do it.

I sometimes thought that its styling was an exercise to see how ugly it needed to make its cars before people stopped buying them.

The truth is that while BMW's sales volumes have increased, its market share has decreased overall. In a market where the total number of players is contracting (bye bye Rover, Jaguar, Volvo, SAAB, Land-Rover, Saturn etc.) of course BMW should be selling more cars.

Audi is killing BMW. How? Design. Design. Design.

[AndyBG]

Audi is killing BMW. How? Design. Design. Design.

Hmm..., will this continue to happend, with Bangle now gone.

[tailpipe]

Do you expect next RS 4 to be very similar to RS 5, something like M3 Coupe/M3 sedan, or you think that RS 4 will be the ''story for it self''...?

See Breaking news - Next RS4

From my own conversations with insiders and journalists, this is what i have been able to piece together:

RS5 launches later this year with 4.2-litre turbo version of current V8 engine developing around 425-450 bhp. (Unless sales of this class of car totally stall over next 6-months, in which case it will be announced but not launched until next year.)

RS4 launches late next year with all new 4.0-litre TFSI V8 engine with both turbo and supercharger (or some other still secret form of exotic blower) developing 435- 455 bhp but crucially offering 35 mpg overall and CO2 of around 250 g/ km or less.

Like 3.0-litre engine in S4 replacing older 4.2-litre FSI V8, 4.0-litre TFSi will be retrofitted to RS5. I expect RS5 to be a belter, but RS4 will be the uber-stealth-autobahn-wagen of choice for me.

Big story for next RS4 is new 4.0-litre TFSI V8 engine. It will be the most powerful, cleanest and most economical V8 on the planet. It makes BMW's engines look state-of-the-ark.

[AndyBG]

So, this is bringing back ''turbo'' as possibility for RS 5...

I was expecting RS 5 with 4.2 N/A, and then, when new RS 4 comes out to be equiped with 4.0 T, simillar story as with S4/S5...

[tailpipe]

RS5 = bringing back turbo = certainty not possibility.

[AndyBG]

Bangle left over ''project i''...

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090205.022/claim-bangle-left-bmw-over-project-i

[Audiphile]

Here is an interesting article regarding this subject.


"Audi brand hits 1 million mark in sales in 2008

Automotive News Europe
January 8, 2009 15:00 CET

FRANKFURT (Reuters) -- Premium Audi hit the 1 million mark in vehicle sales last year as promised, brushing off a slump in the global car market to notch its 13th straight year of rising volumes. Boosted by last year's relaunch of its popular A4 mid-size estate, the company said on Thursday sales rose 4.1 percent to 1,003,400 vehicles.
The Ingolstadt-based carmaker enjoyed a strong finish to the year as the launch of its Q5 mid-size sport utility vehicle gave a 17.4 percent lift to sales in December, when Audi sold a total of 82,800 units.
Last month its sales growth in western Europe amounted to nearly 23 percent, outpacing Asia-Pacific's 16 percent growth.
"We will build on this strength in a difficult 2009 as well," Audi Chief Executive Rupert Stadler said in a statement, although no outlook of any kind was disclosed. The company said it would provide one during the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, due to kick off on Sunday with the first media day.

Unlike its closest competitors, BMW and Mercedes-Benz, Audi has so far managed to steer clear of hundreds of millions in writedowns due to declines in the expected resale value of its cars coming off lease.

This has helped to shield profits at a crucial time when all three are battling a severe slump in global car markets. While both BMW and Mercedes parent Daimler have warned twice they would not meet their 2008 earnings targets, Audi has reaffirmed its goal of growing profits in line with revenue and car sales.

BMW and Mercedes-Benz battered by slumping sales, declining profits, and huge write-offs due to falling residuals suffer from relatively low margins as compared to Audi which is operating at much higher margins and earning substantially higher operating profits than its rivals. Furthermore, Audi will report record profits in 2008 giving it an edge that BMW and Mercedes-Benz will not be able to compete with in 2009. Rumor has it that BMW has targeted Audi for operating efficiency.

Through the first nine months of 2008, operating profit rose 13.6 percent at Audi, easily outpacing a rise of 2.1 percent in turnover. "


Unless BMW can stop the blood letting in terms of its net profit per unit and margin per car produced and sold, it can sell billions of cars all day long, but it still will not be able to beat Audi in terms of overall success. Obviously, Audi's business approach has been the right one in hind sight or fore sight as Audi's Lords of the Rings knew what they were doing to begin with in growing and developing Audi.:) Furthermore, Audi has been outpacing Mercedes-Benz in total monthly global sales in the last quarter of 2008. Mercedes-Benz is stagnant and has been for the last several years. Audi should be able pass Mercedes-Benz in the next couple of years of course depending on the economy.

[itisme]

BMW showed up some sale figures one day ago, and they did better then most other automobile producers....

standart is 9% loose in business and BMW had 5%.... I still think BMW isn't in trouble, even some of you like to see this (what is boring because of lack of true competitors)...

[roadrunner]

BMW showed up some sale figures one day ago, and they did better then most other automobile producers....

standart is 9% loose in business and BMW had 5%.... I still think BMW isn't in trouble, even some of you like to see this (what is boring because of lack of true competitors)...

Not quite, they lost 22,1% in January, which is slightly better than Audi (-28,6%)

[itisme]

Not quite, they lost 22,1% in January, which is slightly better than Audi (-28,6%)

I wasn't reffering on sales figures... As far as I understood these two numbers i quoted reffered on the all in all business of BMW including the financial part and motorbikes. BMW lost 5% in the revenue...

see here from manager-magazin.de:

Der Automobilhersteller BMW hat aufgrund der anhaltenden Absatzschwäche im vergangenen Jahr einen Umsatzrückgang von fünf Prozent auf 53,2 (Vj. 56) Milliarden Euro verzeichnet. Im stärksten Segment Automobile sank der Umsatz stärker um 9,4 Prozent von 53,8 Milliarden auf 48,8 Milliarden Euro, teilte der Dax-Konzern am Freitag mit.

freetranslation:
The automobile manufacturer BMW has a decrease in sales of five percent based on the continuous paragraph weakness in the past year on 53.2 (Vj. 56) billions of Euro indicates. In the strongest segment automobile, the revenue sank to more strongly Euro around 9.4 percent of 53.8 billions 48.8 billion, divided the Dax group on Friday with

[AndyBG]

Bad January for BMW too. MINIs sales going down...

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2009/02/bmw-group-global-january-sales-down-242.html

[Audiphile]

I wasn't reffering on sales figures... As far as I understood these two numbers i quoted reffered on the all in all business of BMW including the financial part and motorbikes. BMW lost 5% in the revenue...

see here from manager-magazin.de:


freetranslation:
The automobile manufacturer BMW has a decrease in sales of five percent based on the continuous paragraph weakness in the past year on 53.2 (Vj. 56) billions of Euro indicates. In the strongest segment automobile, the revenue sank to more strongly Euro around 9.4 percent of 53.8 billions 48.8 billion, divided the Dax group on Friday with


Not sure what you are referring to (your translation is difficult to follow), but BMW reported profit warnings as early as mid 2008 that it could not meet any of its financial goals unlike Audi. With more than a 400 million USD profit write off in the US alone, BMW did not post a profit for 2008. As matter of fact, BMW is likely to apply for government aid in Germany in order to survive 2009. Will have to see if MB follows. Still cannot find their (MB) January sales. Only Audi is going into 2009 with a major profit. That should allow them to survive the first of half of down sales of 2009.

[itisme]

Not sure what you are referring to (your translation is difficult to follow), but BMW reported profit warnings as early as mid 2008 that it could not meet any of its financial goals unlike Audi. With more than a 400 million USD profit write off in the US alone, BMW did not post a profit for 2008. As matter of fact, BMW is likely to apply for government aid in Germany in order to survive 2009. Will have to see if MB follows. Still cannot find their (MB) January sales. Only Audi is going into 2009 with a major profit. That should allow them to survive the first of half of down sales of 2009.

ok, here you are. these are official numbers from BMW. They were presented on 06.Feb.2009

here is a translation by myself:

The automobile manufactorer BMW has, as a reason of the constant decrease in sale in the auromobile sector, a decrease in the turnover/volume of sales compared to the last year by about 5%. Last year BMW had a turnover of 56 billion €, this year it is 53,2 billion. In BMW's main part "Automobiles" the turnover was by 9,4 Prozent @ 48,4 billlions compared to last years 53,8 billions.

BMW turnover 2008/2009:

company itself: 56/53,2 billion € -5%

cars: 53,8/48,4 billion € -9,4%
financial (BMW Bank): +12,8%
motorbikes: +0,2%

BMW needs no government aid...
:cheers:

the headliner for this article was "Umsatzeinbruch, doch Gewinn für 2008" means "Decrease in sales, but still profit in 2008"


after the presentation of these numbers to the press BMW stocks gained nearly 20% @ frankfurt stock exchange on the last two days....

[itisme]

the ones who seem to be in problems are the big three AND Toyota...

I'm really intrested in the numbers of volkswagon the main competitor to toyota...

Toyota Expecting $3.9 Billion Loss
http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090209.009/toyota-expecting-39-billion-loss

[AndyBG]

That is some serious loss... Ho would tell this, just one year ago.

[AndyBG]

BMW cuts some jobs in MINI...

http://www.leftlanenews.com/bmw-cuts-850-mini-workers.html

[AndyBG]

Some more cuts...

http://www.leftlanenews.com/bmw-preparing-wage-cuts-as-profits-sales-tumble.html