Specification of B8 RS4 - Breaking news

[tailpipe]

Hello guys,

Long time no post, so to make up for lost time here goes...

Next RS4 will be available as both a Sedan and Avant, but as before only Sedan in USA.

Out goes the naturally aspirated 4.2 litre FSI V8. Instead, it gets the new bi-turbo 4.0 litre TFSI V8 engine which is likely to develop 450 bhp and 400+ ft/ lbs of torque BUT crucially it will deliver very low emissions and excellent fuel economy: 25-30 mpg average and as much as 35 mpg when cruising at high speed.

Trust me, this engine is the future of performance car engineering. I have just been briefed about it by an insider. It will be the best V8 out there bar none. I don't know the full details yet, but developments to the variable valve timing lift mechanism will make a huge difference to economy at high revs.

The engine will be mated to the new 7-speed DSG gearbox which not only delivers seamless changes but also improves fuel economy. There will not be a manual version.

There is also some electronic trickery applied to both suspension and 4WD system to improve both ride comfort and roadholding. The target is very clearly the AMG C63: to demolish it with intelligent engineering raw than raw brute force horsepower. BMW's V8 will seem prehistoric in comparison.

Everything I have so far heard convinces me that the new RS4 will be as significant a step forward and as exciting as the last.

What I am not sure about yet is the exact launch date. From what i have heard the next RS4 will arrive shortly after RS5. The launch schedule of the RS5 has been disrupted by continuing discussions about its engine. The RS5 was originally destined to get a bi-turbo version of existing 4.2 litre FSI V8, but my understanding is that this has now been canned in favour of new 4.0 litre TFSI, which has put back the original launch timetable. My expectation for both models is late 2010 or early 2011.

The cost of petrol and environmental concerns have dramatically changed Audi's performance car agenda, as the S4 shows. Which is why you shouldn't expect the existing 4.2 FSI to continue in its present guise for much longer.

Another point to note is that the new RS6 has been a major disappointment for Audi. Too heavy and thirsty, it was competent more than sensational. It also arrived at completely the wrong moment. Its green credentials were non-existent. No one wants V10s anymore. it was also too expensive. It isn't selling well.

The next RS4 (and RS5) will fix these concerns by being truly responsible sports cars. Audi needs performance cars with the new 4.0 litre TFSI engine to arrive sooner rather than later.

[Rage]

So wait....the RS4 and RS5 will get the same V8 Biturbo 450HP 400lbft torque?

[artur777]

tailpipe., thanks for the info...
very interesting.
is the information confirmed or some possible rumours?

[tailpipe]

Suffice it to say that I reported that B7 RS4 would have Audi's then new 4.2 litre FSI engine long before anyone else did back in 2004. (Please check RS4's archives).

This engine remains a masterpiece and one of the greatest Audi has produced. Unfortunately, it is a fact that in its present form this power unit is no longer a sustainable engine option because of its thirst and emissions. Audi publicly admitted to journalists (at Paris show 2008) that its V8s will only be able to meet the stringent Euro V emission standards by reducing the bore and by some element of turbo- or supercharging. I don't yet know whether the new 4.0 litre will be turbocharged, supercharged or have a combination of turbos. But it will not be naturally aspirated.

It is also very clear that the new S4 just isn't competitive versus the latest M3 and AMG C63. From a marketing perspective, the RS4 and RS5 have to have V8s. The new RS models also need to arrive pronto.

In short, Audi needs a new flagship V8 that is powerful with low emissions and fuel consumption. The new 4.0 litre engine is just that engine. Like the 2.0 litre TFSI and 3.0 litre TFSI in the S4, the new 4.0 litre TFSI can be fitted to different models in various states of tune so it will be able to be used much more flexibly across the range.

Given that the 2.0 litre TFSI used in the VW Scirocco achieved an output of 300 bhp, a 4.0 litre V8 based on the same technology could achieve at least 500 bhp.

[The Pretender]

It is also very clear that the new S4 just isn't competitive versus the latest M3 and AMG C63.
The S4 is not made to compete with the M3 and AMG C63.
It's made to compete with the 335i and C350.

Jarod.

[tailpipe]

The S4 is not made to compete with the M3 and AMG C63.
It's made to compete with the 335i and C350.

Jarod.

That is absolutely right, but the previous S4 WAS designed to compete with the M3 etc. In fact, having both an S4 and RS4 model caused confusion. Now that confusion has been eliminated by targeting the 335i and C350.

But, my point was that if Audi's next RS4 is going to compete with the latest M3, C63 and IS-F models, it is going to need a V8 not a V6. Anyone who thinks a 3.5 litre V6 or a beefed-up version of the 3.0 litre engine is going to be good enough needs to think again.

[Rage]

t is also very clear that the new S4 just isn't competitive versus the latest M3 and AMG C63. From a marketing perspective, the RS4 and RS5 have to have V8s. The new RS models also need to arrive pronto.

Actually I hope Audi take this on board because the RS6 is not what is needed right now. I dont believe it is selling well (not that RS models should sell in huge quantities) nor do i think it is doing Audi's image any favours.

I think Audi need to move on to the TTRS/RS5/RS4. If I were them i'd fulfil whatever orders were placed for the RS6 and move on.

[tvrfan]

Hello guys,

Long time no post, so to make up for lost time here goes...

Next RS4 will be available as both a Sedan and Avant, but as before only Sedan in USA.

Out goes the naturally aspirated 4.2 litre FSI V8. Instead, it gets the new bi-turbo 4.0 litre TFSI V8 engine which is likely to develop 450 bhp and 400+ ft/ lbs of torque BUT crucially it will deliver very low emissions and excellent fuel economy: 25-30 mpg average and as much as 35 mpg when cruising at high speed.

Trust me, this engine is the future of performance car engineering. I have just been briefed about it by an insider. It will be the best V8 out there bar none. I don't know the full details yet, but developments to the variable valve timing lift mechanism will make a huge difference to economy at high revs.

The engine will be mated to the new 7-speed DSG gearbox which not only delivers seamless changes but also improves fuel economy. There will not be a manual version.

There is also some electronic trickery applied to both suspension and 4WD system to improve both ride comfort and roadholding. The target is very clearly the AMG C63: to demolish it with intelligent engineering raw than raw brute force horsepower. BMW's V8 will seem prehistoric in comparison.

Everything I have so far heard convinces me that the new RS4 will be as significant a step forward and as exciting as the last.

What I am not sure about yet is the exact launch date. From what i have heard the next RS4 will arrive shortly after RS5. The launch schedule of the RS5 has been disrupted by continuing discussions about its engine. The RS5 was originally destined to get a bi-turbo version of existing 4.2 litre FSI V8, but my understanding is that this has now been canned in favour of new 4.0 litre TFSI, which has put back the original launch timetable. My expectation for both models is late 2010 or early 2011.

The cost of petrol and environmental concerns have dramatically changed Audi's performance car agenda, as the S4 shows. Which is why you shouldn't expect the existing 4.2 FSI to continue in its present guise for much longer.

Another point to note is that the new RS6 has been a major disappointment for Audi. Too heavy and thirsty, it was competent more than sensational. It also arrived at completely the wrong moment. Its green credentials were non-existent. No one wants V10s anymore. it was also too expensive. It isn't selling well.

The next RS4 (and RS5) will fix these concerns by being truly responsible sports cars. Audi needs performance cars with the new 4.0 litre TFSI engine to arrive sooner rather than later.

@ Tailpipe

ive heard about the 4.0 TFSI biturbo (turbos mounted in the V) too. are you now 100% sure its biturbo and not Supercharger? because the marketing name TFSI is not standing longer for Turbo engines you know?

so is your post, confirmation or speculation (rumor) ???

[Leadfoot]

But, my point was that if Audi's next RS4 is going to compete with the latest M3, C63 and IS-F models, it is going to need a V8 not a V6. Anyone who thinks a 3.5 litre V6 or a beefed-up version of the 3.0 litre engine is going to be good enough needs to think again.

I would have previously agreed with that standing but not since the GTR re-wrote the rule book with it's 3.8v6. Even BMW are rumoured to be down sizing the M3 before the next model, rumours talk of 2010/11 for the change to a v6 which will either be turboed, SC or a combination of both. This info comes from the latest Autocar.

I personally have no problems with a v6 being under the hood, if the performance is on the money and the handling is all the better for the change then it's the way to go. In fact if Audi did indeed make the next RS4/5 a v6 engine I wouldn't be at all surprised, especially enlight of what BMW are rumoured to be doing.

[QuattroFun]

Interesting info, thx - however, all other talk suggest that the RS5 will have high revving Lambo derived V8 and it would be economically questionable to develop a new and separate engine for the RS4. Just look at the M3. That said, I am firmly in the V8 camp NA or force-fed - if you have to pay top euros and you will have to, then a forced-fed V6 is not emotionally enough nevermind the statistics.

[Rage]

Interesting info, thx - however, all other talk suggest that the RS5 will have high revving Lambo derived V8 and it would be economically questionable to develop a new and separate engine for the RS4. Just look at the M3. That said, I am firmly in the V8 camp NA or force-fed - if you have to pay top euros and you will have to, then a forced-fed V6 is not emotionally enough nevermind the statistics.

+1

I want a V8

[youry]

I've personally convinced that it will be a forced induction V8.... now 4.0 liter of 4.2 don't care.

preference for turbos for tunability, vs compressor;

my goal is to make it a 500Hp min car after tuning.

[The Pretender]

It's N/A 3.2, 4.2 and 5.2, Forced induction 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0.

Jarod.

[AndyBG]

Having all current trends and conditions in mind, v8 turbo seems logical... After all, that these is floating around some time now...

4.2 R.I.P. ... long live 4.0 T :D

[artur777]

Leadfoot,

I think that this time Audi will choose V8 instead of V6 to play against M3 / C63 / IS-F / CTS-V and others, because they are all in V8 league.

May be next generation will be V6 force-fed and in a few years consumrs will get used to such combination. I think that we should not overrun the process of engine evolution.

The GTR is a car with completely different philosophy to compete with 911 Turbo.

[Leadfoot]

I can't agree that it's necessary for Audi to use a V8 instead of a V6 to compete in this sector, Porsche has been using a boxer 6 against a field that has used mainly used anything from V8s all the way up to 12 cylinders.

If the product as a whole is right and delivers the goods then how/what is used to get there has little importance.

[deveraux]

What I am not sure about yet is the exact launch date. From what i have heard the next RS4 will arrive shortly after RS5. The launch schedule of the RS5 has been disrupted by continuing discussions about its engine. The RS5 was originally destined to get a bi-turbo version of existing 4.2 litre FSI V8, but my understanding is that this has now been canned in favour of new 4.0 litre TFSI, which has put back the original launch timetable. My expectation for both models is late 2010 or early 2011.

launch date for the B8 RS4 is ok, for marketing reasons the S4 needs room to sell. but i cannot imagine that the RS5 will launch in late 2010. there are too much test-mules around and it is really time for audi to bring a M3-coupe competitor and don't foget the next CLK/E-Coupe AMG which should arrive in mid 2010.

late 2009 the next A8 starts and will get soon the same 4.0 TFSI with less hp
so i think the engine should be ready late 2009 or early 2010

same story with the A7 which could arrive too in 2009. ams wrote that we will see an A7(concept!?) soon at detroit or geneva

so i expect the RS5 in summer or autumn 2009
also possible that these are too much launches this year beside A1, TT-RS and the cars above

[AndyBG]

Next CLK/E-Coupe AMG will be getting 6.2l V8 with some 520 hp..., as I heard so far.

[KK265]

Any info about weight?Also if C63 AMG is the target Audi needs at least 480-500 PS and less weight.

[deveraux]

Next CLK/E-Coupe AMG will be getting 6.2l V8 with some 520 hp..., as I heard so far.

amg will possibly also change to forced induction in the near future, next E-class and its coupe could be one of the last amgs with the N/A 6.2l engine.

amg-owners who miss the torque of their former supercharged 5.4l engines in the heavy cars will be happy about that


and i think that a charged engine will always fit better to an audi, because an audi is too always a heavy luxury car, even if they achieve to make the RS5 a bit lighter - what can it be, max. 50kg? that's perhaps enough to optimize the weight distribution, but it is still a heavy car.

[artur777]

Absolutely

AMG will go for 5.0L Bi-Turbo in 2 years to improve torque / hp and reduce emissons / fuel

So next E63 will maintain this very engine, the question is which 63 model will be the first to carry it.

[Leadfoot]

launch date for the B8 RS4 is ok, for marketing reasons the S4 needs room to sell. but i cannot imagine that the RS5 will launch in late 2010. there are too much test-mules around and it is really time for audi to bring a M3-coupe competitor and don't foget the next CLK/E-Coupe AMG which should arrive in mid 2010.

late 2009 the next A8 starts and will get soon the same 4.0 TFSI with less hp
so i think the engine should be ready late 2009 or early 2010

same story with the A7 which could arrive too in 2009. ams wrote that we will see an A7(concept!?) soon at detroit or geneva

so i expect the RS5 in summer or autumn 2009
also possible that these are too much launches this year beside A1, TT-RS and the cars above

I think to expect the RS5 within the next 6~9 months is optimistic, the TT/RS is only due in the summer which usually means this date will stretch out to Sept/Oct. I believe for Audi to get the RS5 any sooner than spring/summer 2010 would be unlikely, especially as all of these markets have changed with what the customer deems as important.

A true gas guzzler will not be as accepted as it once was and though I doubt the RS5 will be anything other than at the top of it's game in both economy and emissions (probably best in it's class, like the RS6) it will have to be even more economical than what 6~9 months ago Audi would have deems fit.

I doubt know what engine Audi are now considering but I do believe that they have had a rethink which has slowed it's launch and wouldn't be surprised that it was a supercharged unit instead of turbos. I just think from a packaging point of view it's better but have not the knowledge to know whether such a setup would give the required rev limits.

We should know for sure within the next 6~9 months.

[Leadfoot]

Absolutely

AMG will go for 5.0L Bi-Turbo in 2 years to improve torque / hp and reduce emissons / fuel

So next E63 will maintain this very engine, the question is which 63 model will be the first to carry it.

Mercedes run a different engine/philosophy to either Audi or BMW and to look at it and gauge what either of the others will do might not be the right approach. Example, though the M3 and C63 both run N/A v8 engines the Merc is basically one and a half times bigger, if this was body size this would places it a full two models up from the M3.

Audi are probably close in approach to BMW than Mercedes, the S4 and 335i both use similar sized FI engines and I would expect that the RS4 and next M3 to be also close in engine policy. So if there is any truth in BMW changing the M3 engine to a 6cylinder FI unit in 2010/11 then expect Audi to also be looking/thinking along the same lines.

[tailpipe]

Deveraux,

It is important for us to remember that all manufacturers keep their launch plans very fluid until 3 months before launch. The big debate going on within Audi right now is how long can the existing 4.2 litre V8 FSI lump soldier on? Some people believe it is no longer viable beyond niche applications, e.g. the R8. The point is that unlike previous RS models, the new RS5 and RS4 are intended to be direct competitors to the M3, C63 and ISF and to sell in significant numbers. So the question is whether to launch RS5 with the existing 4.2 litre engine or to wait for the new 4.0 litre TFSI. (Two years ago, people were asking whether RS5 would get a V10!!!!)

Right now, no one is buying big V8s (let alone V10s). Sales of the M3 and AMG C63 are well below expectations. As for Range-Rovers, Big Benzes and Other large V8 SUVs - forget it. So if the RS5 does launch anytime during this year, it will almost certainly be with the existing 4.2 litre V8 FSI engine as used in the B8 RS4 and R8 because the 4.0 litre engine isn't ready yet. The risk is that it will be seen as yet another profligate coupe and sell only in small numbers. So why create a car that won't sell? Why not wait until the recession recedes and you have a new engine with a story to tell?

The exact specification of the new 4.0 litre V8 TFSI is still secret, but if it can deliver average fuel consumption in the 25-30 mpg bracket, cruising mpg in the 35-40 mpg bracket and emissions below 250 g/ km, it will create a new performance benchmark. In short no other manufacturer will have anything to compete with this. It will make AMG's 6.2 litre behemoth look prehistoric. I haven't been this excited about an engine since BMW produced the E46 M3's straight six.

Right now Audi has the two top engines in the world: the 2.0 litre TFSI (as used in the Audi A3 and VW Golf GTI) and the 3.0 litre V6 (as used in the Audi S4 and A6). The new 4.0 litre TFSI will be best V8 bar none.

[Leadfoot]

Deveraux,

It is important for us to remember that all manufacturers keep their launch plans very fluid until 3 months before launch. The big debate going on within Audi right now is how long can the existing 4.2 litre V8 FSI lump soldier on? Some people believe it is no longer viable beyond niche applications, e.g. the R8. The point is that unlike previous RS models, the new RS5 and RS4 are intended to be direct competitors to the M3, C63 and ISF and to sell in significant numbers. So the question is whether to launch RS5 with the existing 4.2 litre engine or to wait for the new 4.0 litre TFSI. (Two years ago, people were asking whether RS5 would get a V10!!!!)

Right now, no one is buying big V8s (let alone V10s). Sales of the M3 and AMG C63 are well below expectations. As for Range-Rovers, Big Benzes and Other large V8 SUVs - forget it. So if the RS5 does launch anytime during this year, it will almost certainly be with the existing 4.2 litre V8 FSI engine as used in the B8 RS4 and R8 because the 4.0 litre engine isn't ready yet. The risk is that it will be seen as yet another profligate coupe and sell only in small numbers. So why create a car that won't sell? Why not wait until the recession recedes and you have a new engine with a story to tell?

The exact specification of the new 4.0 litre V8 TFSI is still secret, but if it can deliver average fuel consumption in the 25-30 mpg bracket, cruising mpg in the 35-40 mpg bracket and emissions below 250 g/ km, it will create a new performance benchmark. In short no other manufacturer will have anything to compete with this. It will make AMG's 6.2 litre behemoth look prehistoric. I haven't been this excited about an engine since BMW produced the E46 M3's straight six.

Right now Audi has the two top engines in the world: the 2.0 litre TFSI (as used in the Audi A3 and VW Golf GTI) and the 3.0 litre V6 (as used in the Audi S4 and A6). The new 4.0 litre TFSI will be best V8 bar none.

I am not sure that 250g/ km will cut it anymore. I believe the goal they should be looking a no more than 220g/ km, probably very optimistic but that is how I see the market going.

As for the recession, think along to lines of 4~6yrs. :snow:

[Randy M]

Well a 4.0 TSFI, a DSG transmission and any suspension that is more reliable than the DRC sounds perfect to me. Ever since I sold my B5 S4 I've been wanting another boosted car. Love my B7 RS4 but I'm looking forward to the next one...:rs4addict

[deveraux]

sounds nice, i really hope that this engine is as good as you tell tailpipe. and this would be a good reason to show it already this year.
so if not shown in a high hp-output version for a RS car then for example in the new A7 or A8 which are believed to come this fall. this will be a very important engine for the luxury segment and so it should be aviable for the A7/A8 from the beginning on.

[chewym]

I like what you say. But I don't see how Audi can't meat Euro V emissions with NA engine. They can meat more stringent US requirements with the current engines, so Euro V should not be a problem. But CO2 is another question.

[Qisha]

Dear Friends,

dont want to brake the "braking news" but... :nono:

Remember, by the time the RS5 arrives, the S5 V8 will be updated to the V6T.

So, the V8 is... ;)

Qisha

[KresoF1]

Dear Friends,

dont want to brake the "braking news" but... :nono:

Remember, by the time the RS5 arrives, the S5 V8 will be updated to the V6T.

So, the V8 is... ;)

Qisha

Thanks!

RS5 4.2 FSI NA 450ps...

4.0 TFSI with cca 400ps will go into A7 first...

...and RS models always use special engine.

[Bogdan]

I think the 4.0 TFSI is a big possibility for the next RS4 , but, due to the recent economical climate Audi might change yet again and go smaller.
And, there is another factor that everybody seems to overlook: in the past, there was NOT Audi following the BMW but the M3 after the RS. What I mean is that Audi has always come out first with a brand new engine that didn't take into consideration the previous M3, but the next one: B5 RS4 2.7 bi-turbo in 1999 and the E46 M3 3.2 in 2001 - B7 RS4 V8 in 2005 and the E90 M3 V8 in 2008 . Following this logic, the next RS4 will not be meant to compete against a V8 M3, but against the next 2010-2011 M3 which I am pretty sure will be a 3.0 bi-turbo. So, we should also consider a derivate from the actual S4 3.0 TFSI engine. That's only my 2 cents

[Leadfoot]

Hi guys,

Have just received a reply back from a dear friend and he has confirmed the RS5 engine to be another "High revving" N/A v8.

So you can take as close to gospel.

[tailpipe]

Okay, before this thread descends into a morass of disinformation, let me summarise what I know based on three reported conversations with Wolfgang Hatz, Audi's Chief of Powertrain Development.

1. Originally RS5 was supposed to get a development of the current 4.2 litre V8 FSI used in latest RS4. Indeed, this is the engine that has been testing in A5 mules on the Nurburgring for more than 12 months.

2. After petrol price shocks, climate issues, and the recessionary worries that emerged during 2008, various marketing people within Audi felt that a naturally aspirated 4.2 litre FSI was no longer sustainable as mainstream powertrain. Sales of other manufacturers' V8 models show that this fear was entirely justified.

3. One other factor that limited the shelf-life of the NA 4.2 litre V8 FSI was expected Euro V emission requirements, so Audi always knew that they would need to develop a forced induction V8 at some point in time.

4. However, no one within the motor industry expected such a dramatic downturn to upset the sales of V8 engined cars so quickly as the current economic downturn has. So this situation has accelerated the need for a new V8 for the A8, A6 and, of course, the RS4.

5. You might wonder whether customers actually want V8 cars at all. Market Research says yes, but customers want economy as much as power not thirsty, dirty engines. In the M3, C63, RS4 segment, they don't want V6s. Period. (A V6 RS4 will not sell, certainly not at £50K.) Remember the S4 isn't meant to be a competitor to the M3 or C63; it's meant to compete with the BMW 335i and Mercedes-Benz C350.

6. So the objective was to develop a forced induction V8 that would combine economy with stunning performance. This is what the amazing new 4.0 litre TFSI engine is. While the method of forced induction is unclear at this stage, (it could be turbocharger or supercharger or both), the advantages it will provide in terms of output, fuel economy and emissions are apparantly stunning. (Leadfoot, don't be surprised if it delivers Co2 figures in line with latest 3.0 litre V6.) Audi's marketing people are saying this engine is needed now not 2011. Though it has been in development for a while, it isn't ready for series production yet.

7. So should Audi launch RS5 with existing V8 FSI albeit with 450 bhp or wait until new 4.0 litre TFSI is ready? While Audi needs something to take on the M3 now, sales of the M3, C63 and ISF are well short of expectations. I believe the RS5 may be well delayed until the economic outlook becomes clearer. So, if the RS5 is launched this year, it will be with existing naturally aspirated V8 FSI engine. I rather suspect it will be shown but not sold for some time to come.

7. Whatever happens the RS4 is not going to get the naturally aspirated V8 FSI engine. Nor is it going to get a development of the 3.0 litre V6 TFSI in the S4 . After the relative failure of the RS6, Audi wants to make sure the next RS4 is perfect. As I said, as things stand Hatz wants to ensure it is ahead of the competition. So it will be the first model to get the new 4.0 litre TFSI just as current RS4 was first model to get the 4.2 litre FSI V8.

You heard this news first here on RS6.com.

[Bogdan]

If it will be indeed the 4.0 TFSI (best bet), I 'll put my money on it being supercharged: packaging issues, heat problems, emissions, engine response, least but not last costs. I am pretty sure it won't be bi-turbo, especially not turbo and supercharged due to costs being enormous.

[tvrfan]

i really dont hope its supercharged. i hate supercharged cars. Turbocharged cars are so much more Mod-friendly. and emissions are better on turbocharged cars too.

[Leadfoot]

Thanks for this tailpipe,

I won't say who is providing me with info but according to him the RS5 will be N/A v8 with S/Tronic. Does this mean the RS5 will run this engine at the start and change to the 4.0TFSi later or possibly run a different engine policy to that of the RS4? Lord knows.

All I do know is when he replies to me the info is usually 100% correct. Though on this occasion I hope Audi do indeed go with a forced unit from the start because I hate the thought of some people getting a different engine from the main production run, it's harder to sell those early examples and alienates those loyal customers who bought first.

[KresoF1]

Thanks for this tailpipe,

I won't say who is providing me with info but according to him the RS5 will be N/A v8 with S/Tronic. Does this mean the RS5 will run this engine at the start and change to the 4.0TFSi later or possibly run a different engine policy to that of the RS4? Lord knows.

All I do know is when he replies to me the info is usually 100% correct. Though on this occasion I hope Audi do indeed go with a forced unit from the start because I hate the thought of some people getting a different engine from the main production run, it's harder to sell those early examples and alienates those loyal customers who bought first.

Leadie,
Your info is correct and mirrors 100% what I got from my NSU contact also.

Just a little bit of current RS and R models history...

RS4 4.2 FSI 420ps>later used as first engine in R8

RS6 5.0 TFSI 580ps newly developed engine used only in RS6

R8 V10 5.2 FSI HDZ 525ps originally developed for Gallardo LP560-4, used in R8 V10 in little bit different version(ECU, exhaust-means more torque on low revs and little bit more refined tone overall)

Forthcoming TTR 2.5L TFSI with about 350ps newly developed engine which will be only used in TTR

Forthcoming RS5 4.2 FSI HDZ 450ps updated(full HDZ) version of R8 engine, could be used in R8 from MY2010...

So, here is the problem>>>new 4.0TFSI with about 394ps will be used in new A7(as S7) first. Why for God sake would quattro Gmbh used this engine in RS5 then? As beefed up version only?
Only scenario that could work is two very, very different versions of 4.0 V8-one with kompressor a la new S4 and biturbo one(a la RS6). BUT, chances for this scenario are as slim as possible...

[tvrfan]

i hope audi isnt so damn idiotic like with the S5. at first the 4.2l V8 and later the V6 3.0 TFSI. audi are stupid idiots on this one. when they do the same on the RS5 and RS4 with giving them a 4.2 V8 and later another engine. then audi is really dump!!!!

[tailpipe]

Thanks for this tailpipe,

I won't say who is providing me with info but according to him the RS5 will be N/A v8 with S/Tronic. Does this mean the RS5 will run this engine at the start and change to the 4.0TFSi later or possibly run a different engine policy to that of the RS4? Lord knows.

All I do know is when he replies to me the info is usually 100% correct. Though on this occasion I hope Audi do indeed go with a forced unit from the start because I hate the thought of some people getting a different engine from the main production run, it's harder to sell those early examples and alienates those loyal customers who bought first.

Well, the S5 started with a V8 and will end up with the same V6 that's in the S4. So, yes, I think it means that RS5 will start life with a NA 4.2 V8 FSI and end up with the same force inducted 4.0 V8 TFSI of the RS4. Either way, it should be a great car.

[tailpipe]

Leadie,
Your info is correct and mirrors 100% what I got from my NSU contact also.

Just a little bit of current RS and R models history...

RS4 4.2 FSI 420ps>later used as first engine in R8

RS6 5.0 TFSI 580ps newly developed engine used only in RS6

R8 V10 5.2 FSI HDZ 525ps originally developed for Gallardo LP560-4, used in R8 V10 in little bit different version(ECU, exhaust-means more torque on low revs and little bit more refined tone overall)

Forthcoming TTR 2.5L TFSI with about 350ps newly developed engine which will be only used in TTR

Forthcoming RS5 4.2 FSI HDZ 450ps updated(full HDZ) version of R8 engine, could be used in R8 from MY2010...

So, here is the problem>>>new 4.0TFSI with about 394ps will be used in new A7(as S7) first. Why for God sake would quattro Gmbh used this engine in RS5 then? As beefed up version only?
Only scenario that could work is two very, very different versions of 4.0 V8-one with kompressor a la new S4 and biturbo one(a la RS6). BUT, chances for this scenario are as slim as possible...

Like the 2.0 litre and 3.0 litre TFSI units, the new 4.0 litre TFSI can be had in various states of tune. in fact, TFSI units are much easier to tune than naturally aspirated engines. Wolfgang Hatz has publicly said that 4.0 litre unit can deliver 500 bhp plus, so a 450 bhp unit in RS4/ RS5 would be easily achieved.

[Leadfoot]

Leadie,
Your info is correct and mirrors 100% what I got from my NSU contact also.

Maybe info getting to both of us from a similar source. ;)


Just a little bit of current RS and R models history...

RS4 4.2 FSI 420ps>later used as first engine in R8

RS6 5.0 TFSI 580ps newly developed engine used only in RS6

R8 V10 5.2 FSI HDZ 525ps originally developed for Gallardo LP560-4, used in R8 V10 in little bit different version(ECU, exhaust-means more torque on low revs and little bit more refined tone overall)

Forthcoming TTR 2.5L TFSI with about 350ps newly developed engine which will be only used in TTR

Forthcoming RS5 4.2 FSI HDZ 450ps updated(full HDZ) version of R8 engine, could be used in R8 from MY2010...

I am not so sure that Audi will limit the use of the 2.5L 5cyl to only the TT/RS, it's a hell of an expense for one limited run model. Especially such a masterpiece of engineering (according to some sources). I expect this to make it's way into more models over time in differing levels of tune.


So, here is the problem>>>new 4.0TFSI with about 394ps will be used in new A7(as S7) first. Why for God sake would quattro Gmbh used this engine in RS5 then? As beefed up version only?
Only scenario that could work is two very, very different versions of 4.0 V8-one with kompressor a la new S4 and biturbo one(a la RS6). BUT, chances for this scenario are as slim as possible...

I do understand why some feel that N/A v8 is the desired choice in this, but the logically option for long term production is an engine which meets future emissions and economical expectations while offering the desired output and allow for future performance increases. To me a FI v8 in one form or another is the best solution, this N/A v8 to be used in the RS5 must be close to it's limits of output/economy/emissions with little scope to improve.

It may well be a stop-gap measure to get the RS5 into product and offer a direct rival to the M3, after all the M3 is on sale right now with a v8 N/A high revving engine and for the foreseeable future will have to use this engine over the next 2~3 years at the very least.

I will go on record now and say that I definitely don't believe that the next RS4 will use this engine, it will get a more enviromentally friendly high output unit be it turbo-ed or supercharged, either way the future is not N/A those days will soon be a thing of the past.

[Leadfoot]

Well, the S5 started with a V8 and will end up with the same V6 that's in the S4. So, yes, I think it means that RS5 will start life with a NA 4.2 V8 FSI and end up with the same force inducted 4.0 V8 TFSI of the RS4. Either way, it should be a great car.

A great car it will be, but would you be happy to own an early one with a old technology and thirsty engine when within 18 months they change that to a fuel efficient and torquier unit.

I reckon if Audi go for N/A in the RS5 to start, they will only change this after the RS4 is released with the new 4.0TFSi and only when a mid-life face lift is called for. Otherwise Audi will run two separate engine policies for both RS models.

[tvrfan]

Well, the S5 started with a V8 and will end up with the same V6 that's in the S4. So, yes, I think it means that RS5 will start life with a NA 4.2 V8 FSI and end up with the same force inducted 4.0 V8 TFSI of the RS4. Either way, it should be a great car.

then audi would be the stupierst car maker in the world. how stupid can a car maker be? development 2 engines for 1 car. they just have ***** wait till the new 4.0 TFSI is done and then release the RS5 and RS4 !!!!n:nana: :w:

[tailpipe]

then audi would be the stupierst car maker in the world. how stupid can a car maker be? development 2 engines for 1 car. they just have ***** wait till the new 4.0 TFSI is done and then release the RS5 and RS4 !!!!n:nana: :w:

Your point is well made. I think this is the exact debate going on within Audi now. Yes, they need to launch an RS5 model, but why do it now when demand for thirsty V8s is limited? Why not wait, as you suggest, until the new 4.0 litre TFSI is ready?

The market has expected an RS5 for some time and if Audi doesn't release it soon, frustrated buyers may buy something else. However, developing two different engines for a single niche model is somewhat expensive - in fact, I am sure various accountants at Audi are tearing their hair out. But Audi is on a mission to lift vehicle production volumes, so don't bet against an RS5 with both a NA 4.2 litre V8 FSI now and a second version with the forced inducted 4.0 litre V8 TFSI later.

As KresoF1 pointed out, the 4.2 engine could be upgraded to 450 bhp. So long as fule consumption isn't awful as a result, a more powerful version of this classic engine can only be a good thing.

Personally, I'm holding out for the 4.0 litre TFSi. Real world consumption with the present RS4 is proving to be around 14.0 to 17.0 mpg, given the B7's pitifully small fuel tank, fuel stops have been frequent on long runs from London to Bologna. Ideally, I'd like a V8 that can deliver 35 mpg at 100 mpg. Perhaps I'm too demanding.

You can get this kind of performance from a 2.0 litre Golf GTI. When you look at how comfortable and well made the new Mark VI Golf is, (the 2.0 litre engine is the Audi designed EA888) then you realise that Audi has its work cut out. But Wolfgang Hatz is a true genius and I think we are all going to be amazed by the the 4.0 litre TFSI. (Porsche is already making noises about using it in the Cayenne, Panamera and its mid-engined successor to the 911.)

What is clear to me with the S4's engine is that Audi has overtaken BMW as the kingpin engine developer.

[QuattroFun]

Comparing the stated C02 for the R8 V8 and R8 V10 - which are essentially the same despite a 1L, 2 cylinders and 105PS gap, it is evident that the new V8 engine will be much more economical/efficient than the old one in RS4 and especially R8. Indeed, the S5 V8 was already much better than the old S4 V8.

[chewym]

Comparing the stated C02 for the R8 V8 and R8 V10 - which are essentially the same despite a 1L, 2 cylinders and 105PS gap, it is evident that the new V8 engine will be much more economical/efficient than the old one in RS4 and especially R8. Indeed, the S5 V8 was already much better than the old S4 V8.

Good point. But a 450 horsepower 4.0 V8 TT (with Valvelift?) will get better fuel economy than a 450 horsepower 4.2 V8. I think that Audi should wait until the 4.0 TT V8 is completely developed and put it in the RS4 and RS5 with at least 450 horsepower.

If Audi is going to have a 400 horsepower 4.0 V8 TT for A7 and A8 (and possibly Q7) why not have a 450+ hp version for RS4 and RS5? Sounds like a cheap solution.

[Leadfoot]

Comparing the stated C02 for the R8 V8 and R8 V10 - which are essentially the same despite a 1L, 2 cylinders and 105PS gap, it is evident that the new V8 engine will be much more economical/efficient than the old one in RS4 and especially R8. Indeed, the S5 V8 was already much better than the old S4 V8.

The very fact that V10 and V8 in the R8 have almost identical emissions shows that valvelift really work well with high revving, high output units and one could expect that a 4.2FSI with valvelift should be able to drop it's emissions by a healthy margain, maybe not as low as 250g/km but a minimum of 265~280g/km level should be easily achieved. The only area which might have a problem improving by much is economy, where as the S4's 3.0TFSi dropped is mpg by a hack of a lot, the same can't be expected from the 4.2FSi, maybe an improvement of 5~8% is the most one could expected. Emissions might please the tree huggers but it's economy that pleases the consumer and there is little doubt that a forced induction unit of similar capacity and output will comfortable reduce it's thirst over the N/A unit by a minimum of 15~20%.

P.S.
I can't agree that the S5 is that much more economical than the old S4v8. I had the S4 and the difference in average mpg is within 1~2mpg, the only area where the S5 wins out is in long journeys but this I put down to aerodynamics as much as anything else.

[tvrfan]

Good point. But a 450 horsepower 4.0 V8 TT (with Valvelift?) will get better fuel economy than a 450 horsepower 4.2 V8. I think that Audi should wait until the 4.0 TT V8 is completely developed and put it in the RS4 and RS5 with at least 450 horsepower.

If Audi is going to have a 400 horsepower 4.0 V8 TT for A7 and A8 (and possibly Q7) why not have a 450+ hp version for RS4 and RS5? Sounds like a cheap solution.

iam absoulutly 100% with you.

[QuattroFun]

Leadie, you know better about the real-world economy between S5 and old S4 than me, but on paper there is a meaningful improvement or maybe this "leadfoot" thing has something to do with your real world observations...:hihi:

As regards Valvelift, I was under the impression that the V10 would not have as it revs to 8700rpm. Still, could be wrong.

Also, everybody talks so much about the new S4 engine and its low quoted CO2 (which I believe are somehow matematically related to fuel consumption) - which is a positive fact, but the Sport Auto test was less flattering with an average fuel consumption of 14.1L vs. S5's 14.9L (both manuals - okay, S4 was 67 kg heavier but anyway)). Hardly the big improvement it appears to be on paper - but low quoted things are nice for the tax band, which is a good thing!

[Leadfoot]

Leadie, you know better about the real-world economy between S5 and old S4 than me, but on paper there is a meaningful improvement or maybe this "leadfoot" thing has something to do with your real world observations...:hihi:

Trust me, the handle was well chosen and suits me to a tee. ;)


As regards Valvelift, I was under the impression that the V10 would not have as it revs to 8700rpm. Still, could be wrong.

I thought that the LP560 had it's form of valvelift though I might be wrong. Maybe Kerso or Jarod can confirm whether this is correct or not.


Also, everybody talks so much about the new S4 engine and its low quoted CO2 (which I believe are somehow matematically related to fuel consumption) - which is a positive fact, but the Sport Auto test was less flattering with an average fuel consumption of 14.1L vs. S5's 14.9L (both manuals - okay, S4 was 67 kg heavier but anyway)). Hardly the big improvement it appears to be on paper - but low quoted things are nice for the tax band, which is a good thing!

Alas economy figures only really improve when you are light on the right foot and as my S4 vs S5 observations and SportAuto's test of the new S4 vs S5 both prove that this is indeed true. As I said in the previous post, when on a long journey that S5 would return close on 30mpg where as the S4 could only muster 26mpg when driven similarly.

But what's the point of having 350hp and not using it. :dig:

[Qisha]

I thought that the LP560 had it's form of valvelift though I might be wrong. Maybe Kerso or Jarod can confirm whether this is correct or not

Dear Leadfoot,

no Valvelift for the V10 5.2 FSI Engine.

Let me give you some details:

-FSI with Common Rail Injection @ 120 Bar
-compression 12,5:1
-Dry Sump Lubrication System
-angle 90°
-4 chain driven camshafts, adjustable by 42° for a wider timing spectrum
-5.204 cm3
-weight is 258kg

Performance specs:

-max lateral acceleration 1.2g
-weight dist. 44/56
-Vmax 316 km/h
-0-100 km/h 3.9s
-0-200 km/h 12.0s (R-tronic)

etc.

Qisha

[Leadfoot]

Thanks for that Qisha,

I must have been confusing valvelift with direct injection.

Qisha, you might know this. How are Audi getting the increase of both output and economy from the N/A version of the 4.2FSi?

[Qisha]

Dear Leadfoot,

think about:

-airflow
-compression
-friction
-internal cooling
-filling
-timing

Plus latest drivetrain, transmission and one or two goodies, EU5 achieved.

Qisha

[KresoF1]

Plus to add to Qisha:

-new R8 V10 is first full HDZ engine
-that means that there is potential in 4.2 FSI from R8 for 450ps

BTW, Qisha when will we have German Preisliste fur R8 V10 5.2FSI in pdf format?

[Bogdan]

I think that we'll get an answer pretty soon regarding Audi's plans for the RS5: Detroit or Geneve Motorshow. If they don't come out presenting it at neither of the two, than the best bet they wait for the 4.0 TFSI engine to be ready and then launch: 2010 summer. In terms of engine policy, they will sure choose the cleanest first, as for mpg, that will only be on paper and I really don't think that any of you guys or a tipical RS customer will ever look at the fuel cons. You can't expect a 450-500 hp with 1.7 tone to have good mpg. My only wish is that they'll find the way to stick the 90 l Audi R8 fuel tank into the RS5/RS4 so that I won't have to be such a good friend with the guys at the fuel station.

[tvrfan]

I think that we'll get an answer pretty soon regarding Audi's plans for the RS5: Detroit or Geneve Motorshow. If they don't come out presenting it at neither of the two, than the best bet they wait for the 4.0 TFSI engine to be ready and then launch: 2010 summer. In terms of engine policy, they will sure choose the cleanest first, as for mpg, that will only be on paper and I really don't think that any of you guys or a tipical RS customer will ever look at the fuel cons. You can't expect a 450-500 hp with 1.7 tone to have good mpg. My only wish is that they'll find the way to stick the 90 l Audi R8 fuel tank into the RS5/RS4 so that I won't have to be such a good friend with the guys at the fuel station.

i really hope that too, that audi isnt so stupid an making a NA engine again. because emission. and in my eyes audi should fight there slogan "vorsprung durch technik" ;-). also i hope that the 4.0 TFSI would be turboed. i really dont like supercharger. in terms of emmission and mod-friendly the turbo is the way in future !!!! audi should know that

[Leadfoot]

Dear Leadfoot,

think about:

-airflow
-compression
-friction
-internal cooling
-filling
-timing

Plus latest drivetrain, transmission and one or two goodies, EU5 achieved.

Qisha

A bad choice of questions from myself. Maybe I should have said 'what should we expect the emissions and economy to be if the output is increased to 450hp?', is most of the improvement coming from 'valvelift' or anything else which is having an even greater effect.

Example BMW's M3 with a 4.0v8 plus 420hp has a CO2 of 295g/km in manual form which improves be 10g/km when combined with M-DGK and it uses something called 'Efficient Dynamics' and also disengages the altenator when accelerating at full throttle to achieve these results. Is it fair to expect much of an improvement over these figure or is that pushing it given the fact the RS5 has 4 driven wheels instead of just 2.

[artur777]

The situation looks very interesting...
To my mind, in current circumstances FI engines seems more reasonable, mosly because of their better emission and fuel consumption.
To release RS5 with 4.2 NA and then change it for 4.0TFSI is not an easy step for Audi for various reasons. Mainly - buyers of first RS5 cars will go crazy when the engine will be replaced. But for now Audi has nothing to offer to its buyers to compete with M3/C63 and IS-F.

I will be glad to see 4.0 TFSI of course. And the best outcome will be to see it in 2009.
But for me - if Audi releases RS5 with 4.2NA I won't buy it if I know that the engine is to be replaced soon. I will better be waiting.
Will you guys wait for 4.0TFSI or stop at 4.2NA if it released in such a combination?

Dear Qisha,
could you please point when RS5 is going to be released in the market - 2009 or 2010?

[chewym]

Remember that emissions that are regulated by (Euro V or the EPA in the US) don't have all that much to do with how much C02 a car produces. FI would result in less C02, but it doesn't do much for the regulated emissions as far as I know. The catalytic converter/emissions system is responsible for that. And you can make any gas engine pass any emission regulations by upgrading its emission system, but this could come at some loss of power. On the other hand, you can only reduce C02 emissions by using less fuel.

[KresoF1]

The situation looks very interesting...
To my mind, in current circumstances FI engines seems more reasonable, mosly because of their better emission and fuel consumption.
To release RS5 with 4.2 NA and then change it for 4.0TFSI is not an easy step for Audi for various reasons. Mainly - buyers of first RS5 cars will go crazy when the engine will be replaced. But for now Audi has nothing to offer to its buyers to compete with M3/C63 and IS-F.

I will be glad to see 4.0 TFSI of course. And the best outcome will be to see it in 2009.
But for me - if Audi releases RS5 with 4.2NA I won't buy it if I know that the engine is to be replaced soon. I will better be waiting.
Will you guys wait for 4.0TFSI or stop at 4.2NA if it released in such a combination?

Dear Qisha,
could you please point when RS5 is going to be released in the market - 2009 or 2010?


Only this-RS5 will use only ONE engine in its production life. It is low production(in comparison with S5 for example) model and it will use only one V8 engine.

[artur777]

Remember that emissions that are regulated by (Euro V or the EPA in the US) don't have all that much to do with how much C02 a car produces. FI would result in less C02, but it doesn't do much for the regulated emissions as far as I know. The catalytic converter/emissions system is responsible for that. And you can make any gas engine pass any emission regulations by upgrading its emission system, but this could come at some loss of power. On the other hand, you can only reduce C02 emissions by using less fuel.

I see that.
If you use more powerful engine - you can install better emission system and you will have more HP and Torque anyway.

4.0TFSI is able to get around 500hp or even more (TTRS will be 350hp from 2.5TFSI f.e.) - much better than 450hp from 4.2NA
So the choice is evident - the question is "when"?

[tailpipe]

Artur777,

I agree with you. An Audi engineer told the UK's Car Magazine that the 4.0 litre TFSI could potentially develop 550 bhp. Given that the 2.0 litre TFSI unit used in the VW Scirocco that took part in the Nurburgring 24-hour race generated 300 bhp, I am sure this is a possibility.

As to when: 2010.

[Randy M]

The RS5 will be revealed on December 21, 2012....muhuwahahahaha...:MTM:

[Leadfoot]

Artur777,

I agree with you. An Audi engineer told the UK's Car Magazine that the 4.0 litre TFSI could potentially develop 550 bhp. Given that the 2.0 litre TFSI unit used in the VW Scirocco that took part in the Nurburgring 24-hour race generated 300 bhp, I am sure this is a possibility.

As to when: 2010.

550hp is a very achieveable figure for a 4.0L TFSi engine, doubt they will give it anything near that is production ready example but I remember hearing that the RS6 engine had been running up to 700~750hp so the numbers stack up.

As for a date, 2010 is the same figure I am hearing. Probably spring/early summer released all being well.

[youry]

sorry to ask but what does HDZ mean ?

[AndyBG]

High reving engine...

[artur777]

Leadfoot, if the it's released in 2010, then it will be 4.0TFSI for sure.
And now they are testing all other systems with current 4.2NA engine

[Leadfoot]

Leadfoot, if the it's released in 2010, then it will be 4.0TFSI for sure.
And now they are testing all other systems with current 4.2NA engine

I totally agree with your opinion but according to what I have been told from someone who should know is that the RS5 will be launched with an improved version of the 4.2FSi.

[Qisha]

Plus to add to Qisha:

-new R8 V10 is first full HDZ engine
-that means that there is potential in 4.2 FSI from R8 for 450ps

BTW, Qisha when will we have German Preisliste fur R8 V10 5.2FSI in pdf format?

Dear KresoF1,

official Paperwork, Configurator and Pricelist will be released this Thursday (15th of January) together with Press Intro in Spain.

Qisha

[KresoF1]

Dear KresoF1,

official Paperwork, Configurator and Pricelist will be released this Thursday (15th of January) together with Press Intro in Spain.

Qisha

If I am not wrong R8 V10 is already in dealers Configurator in Germany.

Car Press Intro is in Spain on 15th as you said.

Thanks any way!:R8: