Quattro no more the best AWD =((

[tvrfan]

in german AMS the 530xi wins the comparison over the A6 2.8FSI quattro in snow. the Xdrive system is more dynamicly and has more grip. i think audi should update their quattro system. maybe the torsen isnt more the best way to go with awd. =(

audi should update their haldex (A3, TT) visco (R8) and torsen (A6, A4....) with more electronicly gimmics. or make their quattro without torsen, because it isnt the best more.

Also audi should bring their sportdiff. for all audi models as option and FOR THE S and RS MODELS AS STANDART !!!!!!!!!! that sucks that this sportdiff is an option on the new S4!

[Phage]

in german AMS the 530xi wins the comparison over the A6 2.8FSI quattro in snow. the Xdrive system is more dynamicly and has more grip. i think audi should update their quattro system. maybe the torsen isnt more the best way to go with awd. =(


Hasn't audi been working on a new Quattro system for a long while now?


Also audi should bring their sportdiff. for all audi models as option and FOR THE S and RS MODELS AS STANDART !!!!!!!!!! that sucks that this sportdiff is an option on the new S4!

Why does it suck? What if most S4 buyers don't really need a sportdiff?
Why would audi put on something their clients don't really want and or need just because their fans think it should.

[tvrfan]

so when will the new quattro system be released??? mechanical or electric? the one thing that sucks too is audi has 3 different AWD systems in their cars. Torsen, haldex and visco. audi has to update all 3 systems and not just one !!!

[The Pretender]

AMS is a con Audi magazine.

Jarod.

[Speedou]

And to who Quattro is not enough? :)

[hdtomi]

One Magazine one test. ...

The quattro is the best. :)
The Q5 won the "Golden Lenkrad", TOPautos 2009“ ... offroad ability, and German Auto Bild test, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zfKRdgoRo4

Vorsprung durch Technik

[Phage]

so when will the new quattro system be released??? mechanical or electric? the one thing that sucks too is audi has 3 different AWD systems in their cars. Torsen, haldex and visco. audi has to update all 3 systems and not just one !!!

Wait and see. You will know when it is released.

And why does it suck that audi has 3 different 4wd systems. It's just reality.
The torsen doesn't fit on the A3/TT so it needs a different system.
The R8 is basicly a gallardo in drag. I think when you're building a supercar you don't expect the same things from your 4wd system as the one in a 4d saloon.

The ideal thing would be a 4wd system that could route the power to all wheels freely that would weigh and cost the same or less.
Let's say using more expensive materials could make it suitable for more power.
Then audi could use the same system for all possible vehicles.

But if it was that easy it would've been done allready.

So please don't say something sucks just because some magazine wrote their opinion about a BMW which they think drives better.

[Michaël Barbé]

You are making this big deal because of one test?

If I would say that your mouth is too big, would you go to a plastic surgeon that makes it smaller as soon a possible?

Chill out! If more magazines would point in the same direction, it would be bad for Audi and quattro but I reckon BMW will have to do there very best to make an AWD like quattro. And still...

MB
:rs6kiss:

[Mockenrue]

I wonder if the cars in the test were fitted with the same tyres?

[kju]

haha one driver one opinion....and i mean AMS lol....

how many rally championships did BMW win ?

[The Pretender]

Vorsprung Durch Technik.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii_fXvg98w4

Jarod.

[ZeroCool]

Vorsprung durch Technik :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crnAn-mt1Ks

[The Pretender]

Vorsprung durch Technik :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crnAn-mt1Ks
Yes, he is stuck on the floor and have 2 wheels out of order, no system will counter that.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

If any car is beached then on awd system will pull it free and this is speaking from experience when the Brother-in-law layered his Defender in my front garden (before it was sowen) and needed to be pulled out by my S4 at the time.

As for the argument to whether BMW's X-Drive is better than Quattro, maybe the X6 system is indeed better for a more involved drive but not now that Quattro too has adopted a torque vectoring diff, which I might add that Audi's setup is far more advanced and does provide even more cornering grip.

[Turbo]

in german AMS the 530xi wins the comparison over the A6 2.8FSI quattro in snow. the Xdrive system is more dynamicly and has more grip. i think audi should update their quattro system. maybe the torsen isnt more the best way to go with awd.

Both BMW and Audi lack central differential locking, like e.g. the WRX STi has, to be true driver's cars on snow. x-drive and Torsen give most torque to the wheel with the most grip, which is great for traction, but is unpredictable when you want to do controlled oversteering (and who wouldn't want that!).


how many rally championships did BMW win?

How many rally championships did Audi win with torsen awd? I don't think a professional rally driver would want a to drive a car, so close to the limit, where individual wheel speed varies through a corner...

Both Audi and BMW make cars that mustn't get a reputation to be unsafe, why road traction is the feature they try to achieve. Also, when not on snow, ice or gravel, the driver will probably also want traction, if it isn't drifting he/she is doing :)

[artur777]

Both BMW and Audi lack central differential locking, like e.g. the WRX STi has, to be true driver's cars on snow. x-drive and Torsen give most torque to the wheel with the most grip, which is great for traction, but is unpredictable when you want to do controlled oversteering (and who wouldn't want that!).



How many rally championships did Audi win with torsen awd? I don't think a professional rally driver would want a to drive a car, so close to the limit, where individual wheel speed varies through a corner...

Both Audi and BMW make cars that mustn't get a reputation to be unsafe, why road traction is the feature they try to achieve. Also, when not on snow, ice or gravel, the driver will probably also want traction, if it isn't drifting he/she is doing :)

Do I get right that central locking is responsible for power distribution between axles?
Does STi have rear locking as well to distribute between the wheels?

[Turbo]

The center differential distributes torque between fromt and rear axles, not power :) (although I guess that's what you really meant). Torsen acts as an open differential when no wheel has better grip than the others. When a wheel is about to slip, though, the axle speed difference activates the Torque sensing device (differential), and torque is distributed to the wheels with the best grip. To avoid wheels spinning when going around corners, the differential needs to allow different wheel velocities. Torsen allows rotational speed differences in one direction, but not in the other, and cornering is like with an open diff. With the current Torsen generation used in Audis, the diff gives 40% of the torque to the front wheels and 60% to the rear ones in the open case.

With a locked center diff, both outgoing shafts from the differential have the same velocity, and the differential distributes continuously varying amounts of torque to each axle. When one wheel wants to slip, the torque is "given" to the other wheels that have better grip, to have them all rotate evenly. A completely open diff would let the same torque through to both axles, which means that the wheel that slips, spins faster than the others.

A clutch differential like the one in the STI is only "locked" until a certain difference in torque between the outgoing shafts is reached. This means that if the front wheels are fully braked, the rear wheels will still rotate, if the engine provides enough torque.

The STI does have an LSD rear differential btw.

[tailpipe]

Both BMW and Audi lack central differential locking, like e.g. the WRX STi has, to be true driver's cars on snow. x-drive and Torsen give most torque to the wheel with the most grip, which is great for traction, but is unpredictable when you want to do controlled oversteering (and who wouldn't want that!).



How many rally championships did Audi win with torsen awd? I don't think a professional rally driver would want a to drive a car, so close to the limit, where individual wheel speed varies through a corner...

Both Audi and BMW make cars that mustn't get a reputation to be unsafe, why road traction is the feature they try to achieve. Also, when not on snow, ice or gravel, the driver will probably also want traction, if it isn't drifting he/she is doing :)

Excellent post! Really thoughtful points and spot on. Thank you.

[Leadfoot]

Both BMW and Audi lack central differential locking, like e.g. the WRX STi has, to be true driver's cars on snow. x-drive and Torsen give most torque to the wheel with the most grip, which is great for traction, but is unpredictable when you want to do controlled oversteering (and who wouldn't want that!).

Thanks for this explanation of Audi's lack of knowledge in how to produce a true driver's car. Best tell Peter Kox that he knows nothing about what makes for a quality driver's car because he seemed to like the TT/S quite a lot when he recently tested it among a number of sportscars at the Zandvoort track. Among the cars tested was a BMW M3 M-DKG, a Mercedes C63, Lexus IS-F, your beloved Imperza STi, Megane F1 R26, Lancer EVO X and the JWC Mini.

Guess where the TT/S finished in the line up and where the two 'true' rally legends (EVO X & STi) finished up. :hihi:

P.S.
Would you like a list of the lap times or would you prefer to end this boosting of the Imperza right now. ;)


How many rally championships did Audi win with torsen awd? I don't think a professional rally driver would want a to drive a car, so close to the limit, where individual wheel speed varies through a corner...

Won't address this with an answer. :nana:


Both Audi and BMW make cars that mustn't get a reputation to be unsafe, why road traction is the feature they try to achieve. Also, when not on snow, ice or gravel, the driver will probably also want traction, if it isn't drifting he/she is doing :)

Totally agree on this point, very manufacturer should be taking the view of making their cars as safe as possible but disagree that safe needs to be boring.

[Turbo]

Thanks for this explanation of Audi's lack of knowledge in how to produce a true driver's car. Best tell Peter Kox that he knows nothing about what makes for a quality driver's car because he seemed to like the TT/S quite a lot when he recently tested it among a number of sportscars at the Zandvoort track. Among the cars tested was a BMW M3 M-DKG, a Mercedes C63, Lexus IS-F, your beloved Imperza STi, Megane F1 R26, Lancer EVO X and the JWC Mini.

Guess where the TT/S finished in the line up and where the two 'true' rally legends (EVO X & STi) finished up. :hihi:

P.S.
Would you like a list of the lap times or would you prefer to end this boosting of the Imperza right now. ;)

I think that's exactly what I tried to say in a previous post...


x-drive and Torsen give most torque to the wheel with the most grip, which is great for traction...

Audi quattro cars are really impressive when it comes to traction, grip, cornering speeds, stability etc...

BUT!
They aren't made to be rally cars, and thus don't behave as such.

A car with inconsistent behaviour is not a pleasant experience when driven close to the limit. I happen to live in northern Sweden at the moment, where we currently have ~50cm of snow. The roads are covered with hard snow, so there is no contact with tarmac. Just to give an example, I took a ride last night with a friend in his Impreza PSE2. When we took off, the diff locking wasn't activated at all, and the car just went straight ahead when trying to have it steering on power. My friend, who works as a test driver, and is born and raised up here, was completely mad at the lousy car. Next corner, now with the DCCD fully locked, the car responded in a completely different way.

Last winter, the same friend of mine had an Audi A3 quattro (with Haldex, which is not yet mentioned in this thread) that he drove a lot on ice tracks. He was very unpleased with the awd system on ice, but thought it was great in everyday driving.

What am I trying to say here? Well, the STI is made to be as much rally and fun as possible for a road car. Audi quattro cars are made to be the best car for everyone in every situation, which means compromises.


Totally agree on this point, every manufacturer should be taking the view of making their cars as safe as possible but disagree that safe needs to be boring.

And I totally agree with you, that safe cars don't have to be boring. I just don't think anyone can decide for everyone which awd system is the best. Just like the winner of any magazine car test isn't always the best car for everyone.

[Leadfoot]

So you admit that the TT/S is quicker than either the Imperza or EVO X on the track, even though it has less power and torque than either of them. But it's still not as good because it's awd system is not as advanced or as fun to drive.

I'm very confused at the moment, the whole subjective of any suspension, drive system is to produce the quicker transition from corner to straight to next corner and so on, with the highest cornering speed.

Not wanting to knock the Imperza, it's a great car and all that but when the lowly TT/S with only 265hp and not the most advanced Haldex system is quicker then Subaru should rethink their awd system because it obivously not good enough. Now unless the TT/S is lighteningly quick everywhere else compared to either the Imperza or EVO it has to be quicker in the corners too. Remember it was 3 seconds quicker than the STi and 3.5 seconds quicker than the EVO, that is a huge margain on a lap only totaling 2 minutes. To put that into respective, if those times were multiplied up to the ring that would in theory give the TT an advantage ofover 12 seconds.

Meaning the humble TT/S is in another league to either of them two 'true' rally cars.

Another thing, I know I don't see anything like the winters you guys get up there but when it does snow and the last time I looked snow has the same effect the world over I didn't find the S5 or any previous Quattros unpredictable when going sideways, in fact they were all very easy to control and much easier than an rwd car I have ever driven.

[Turbo]

So you admit that the TT/S is quicker than either the Imperza or EVO X on the track, even though it has less power and torque than either of them. But it's still not as good because it's awd system is not as advanced or as fun to drive.

I would say the current quattro systems are more advanced than the Japanese cars' we are discussing. And the STi was just an example, since it's the only normal car that I know of with driver-controllable differential locking.


I'm very confused at the moment, the whole subjective of any suspension, drive system is to produce the quicker transition from corner to straight to next corner and so on, with the highest cornering speed.

Yes, but if the manufacturer thinks that more cars of a model would be sold if the drive system provided more feeling and control, maybe they can accept a slightly slower and less effective car? For example, M5 have manual transmission as an option in the US, even though 0-60 mph takes half a second more than the SMG.


Not wanting to knock the Imperza, it's a great car and all that but when the lowly TT/S with only 265hp and not the most advanced Haldex system is quicker then Subaru should rethink their awd system because it obivously not good enough. Now unless the TT/S is lighteningly quick everywhere else compared to either the Imperza or EVO it has to be quicker in the corners too. Remember it was 3 seconds quicker than the STi and 3.5 seconds quicker than the EVO, that is a huge margain on a lap only totaling 2 minutes. To put that into respective, if those times were multiplied up to the ring that would in theory give the TT an advantage ofover 12 seconds.

Meaning the humble TT/S is in another league to either of them two 'true' rally cars.

I personally think the TT/S is one of the coolest cars with a price tag within reach for people. But I don't think (and this is just a guess of mine) that the TT delivers as much consistency when powersliding. In all other areas (i.e. the other 99.9% of the experience of the car, and the part that really matters), the TT seems to be fantastic. No one comes near the design and quality feeling of Audi cars. And to mention our good old friend Impreza again, wind and road noise as well as the sound and feeling of closing a door is almost unacceptable.


Another thing, I know I don't see anything like the winters you guys get up there but when it does snow and the last time I looked snow has the same effect the world over I didn't find the S5 or any previous Quattros unpredictable when going sideways, in fact they were all very easy to control and much easier than an rwd car I have ever driven.

Unpredictable was really an exaggeration, but since individual wheel speeds may vary through a corner, it isn't completely consistent. Which is probably best for almost all drivers in most situations. You can definitely have great fun in any awd car, and I don't think I would consider owning an Impreza unless I got very rich and already had bought all other "sports cars". Just look at the global sales figures for Audi, and anyone realizes that Audi delivers the right product.

[KresoF1]

Just for the OP info latest issue of Auto Bild Allrad edition tested several SUVs AWD system on snow. Q5 won and X6 was only fourth... Difference on the uphill snow road drive was specially big...

[Leadfoot]

Just for the OP info latest issue of Auto Bild Allrad edition tested several SUVs AWD system on snow. Q5 won and X6 was only fourth... Difference on the uphill snow road drive was specially big...

Any links to either video or article would be great. Also good to hear that Quattro still rules.

[BLITZEN]

'03 RS6 owner living in snowy Utah here to chime in.. I'm not a race car driver and only dream of someday being in a rally. But I know either way, the professional cars used in events like rallys are far different than what we're driving every day. Want proof? Try to get all of your Audi's wheels to spin on loose dirt like you see the cars on t.v. doing. With traction control it won't happen. You'll just lose power.

That's why personally, at slower speeds on snow (under 50MPH), I prefer driving with the traction control off. I just can't stand it when traction control is on, I hit the gas, and it feels like the e-brake is on - no wheel spin or much accelleration. I prefer to get some spin going and steer more with my foot. The 4 wheel drive cornering grip still allows me to get around SUV's and everyone else as if they were slalom cones.

Just my uneducated .02. :rs6kiss:

[andreadebi]

Any links to either video or article would be great. Also good to hear that Quattro still rules.

I searched on autobild allrad section and I didn't find it...is it coming soon?

[andreadebi]

what about this one? is it this or we have to wait for the autobild test?

http://www.autozeitung.de/technik/allrad-systeme-im-vergleich-0

[KresoF1]

Any links to either video or article would be great. Also good to hear that Quattro still rules.

It is comparison test from latest issue:
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/auto-bild-allrad-2_2009_827461.html

In two weeks that test will be online-I will post the link.

[Leadfoot]

Thanks for this, I look for to the link when you get it.

[andreadebi]

It is comparison test from latest issue:
http://www.autobild.de/artikel/auto-bild-allrad-2_2009_827461.html

In two weeks that test will be online-I will post the link.

thanks for the info

[Tanner]

Here's the big question... do the majority of the drivers of the BMW Xi, Audi quattros, Subaru STI's etc, really take full advantage of the AWD capability of these cars in snowy/gravel conditions?

Betting the answer is no and really, neither is better than the other for the majority of the drivers out there.

Of course, there are pros and cons to each system, and there are the exceptions, but the one best thing that people can do, which the majority don't really, is use the right tire for the season!!

[stevy-RS6-V10]

One Magazine one test. ...

The quattro is the best. :)
The Q5 won the "Golden Lenkrad", TOPautos 2009“ ... offroad ability, and German Auto Bild test, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zfKRdgoRo4

Vorsprung durch Technik

lol, great movie, a bit old. but cool :dig:

[Leadfoot]

Here's the big question... do the majority of the drivers of the BMW Xi, Audi quattros, Subaru STI's etc, really take full advantage of the AWD capability of these cars in snowy/gravel conditions?

Betting the answer is no and really, neither is better than the other for the majority of the drivers out there.

Of course, there are pros and cons to each system, and there are the exceptions, but the one best thing that people can do, which the majority don't really, is use the right tire for the season!!

You are completely right with this, but unless your winters really require snow tyres which in the UK is seldom the case, I think having a good awd system linked to normal tyres is a better solution than having the same rubber with rwd.

[andreadebi]

another snow test

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/allradantriebe-im-test_831768.html

[KresoF1]

NO. The article is still not on line.

[andreadebi]

NO. The article is still not on line.

yes sorry,I didn't remember about q5 and x6 on the comparison