Motortrend testing the R8, GTR, Porsche etc.

[Erik]

Motortrend links
http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0810_americas_best_handling_car_contenders_ins trument_tests/index.html



http://image.motortrend.com/f/10809357/112_0810_50z+on_center_sensitivity+illustration.jp g
http://image.motortrend.com/f/10809372/112_0810_51z+skidpad_test_results+.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/10809387/112_0810_52z+step_steer_test_results+.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/10809429/112_0810_53z+figure_eight_test_results+.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/10809408/112_0810_54z+lane_change_test_results+.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/10809450/112_0810_55z+ride_quality_test_results+.jpg

[artur777]

Who was the best? and where is BMW and Porsche?

[Michaël Barbé]

Ride vibration: DODGE:harass:

MB
:rs6kiss:

[KresoF1]

Second part:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0810_americas_best_handling_car_track_testing/index.html

Just look who is winner in race driver subjective ranking and who is just fifth...

[Erik]

http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0810_americas_best_handling_car_track_testing/index.html

http://image.motortrend.com/f/10524392/112_0810_66z+2008_mini_cooper_s+lap_graph.jpg http://image.motortrend.com/f/10524353/112_0810_58z+2008_mitsubishi_lancer_evolution_MR+l ap_graph.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/10524413/112_0810_62z+2008_audi_R8+lap_graph.jpg http://image.motortrend.com/f/10830861/112_0810_65z+2008_porsche_911_turbo+lap_graph.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/10830870/112_0810_59z+2009_nissan_GT-R+lap_graph.jpg http://image.motortrend.com/f/10830879/112_0810_57z+2009_mazda_RX-8+lap_graph.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/10830900/112_0810_64z+2008_ford_shelby_GT500KR+lap_graph.jp g http://image.motortrend.com/f/10830969/112_0810_63z+2008_dodge_viper_ACR+lap_graph.jpg


AUDI R8
BEST LAP (MIN:SEC): 1:40.920
AVG. LATERAL ACCELERATION: 0.610 G
SUBJECTIVE RANKING: 1ST



"Well, we're not in the little cars any more!" Pobst exclaims with a smile after his R8 hot laps (ooooh, you shoulda been there to hear this Bavarian UFO circle Laguna at warp speed). "Real race-car feel. So obvious it's a mid-engine car, especially after the front-drive cars. I felt like I was moving a lot less mass around when I entered corners, even though the R8 is still a relatively heavy car. There's no substitute for having the engine just ahead of the rear axle. That's the perfect place for it." Indeed, Pobst is all thumbs-up. "Steering feel is just terrific, and handling balance is superb. The mid-engine layout makes the R8 feel light on corner-entry. It wants to turn, but that's underlined with a real predictability. The amount of grip and the way the car cornered and rotated slightly was so much like a race car. Doesn't feel like it's four-wheel drive. Also, it's completely comfortable and luxurious." Does Pobst have any complaints at all? "After the first lap and a half, the front tires got hot and started to go off, so I didn't have the bite on corner-entry. Still, in terms of handling feel...utterly superb."

SUM UP: Want to make a race driver grin? Say "R8."

[maarten]

The viper is hella fast to :bow: :incar:
5 seconds faster round the track:mech:
I like looks of the viper to

[artur777]

the Viper is a clear winner due to time...
the car is freaking fast

[Z07]

Ride vibration: DODGE:harass:

Must feel like being shunted by a gorilla. It's damn fast though and the new Nurburgring record holder:

http://www.motortrend.com/av/features/112_0811_2009_dodge_viper_acr_nurburgring_record_v ideo/index.html

[Erik]

Z07, you should try the Jet-Viper Taxi on the Nürburgring ;)

btw, WFT is wrong with his gearbox? Look at 5:34 (backwards into the movie) :D plus all the rev hits.

EDIT: Jet-Viper http://www.zakspeed.de/the-motorsport-company/index.php?id=381

http://www.ryanwheeler.co.uk/Europe2006/photos/Nurburgring/Viper.JPG

[Z07]

Z07, you should try the Jet-Viper Taxi on the Nürburgring ;)

What's that?

[KresoF1]

Third and final part:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0810_americas_best_handling_car_conclusion/index.html

[pampas]

Well, the title of the article (http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0810_americas_best_handling_car_conclusion/index.html) says:
"America's Best Handling Car: The Winner - Audi R8"

http://image.motortrend.com/f/features/performance/10537835+w455/112_0810_06l+2008_audi_r8+side_view.jpg

[Ruergard]

Nice article, thanks!

[Leadfoot]

"America's Best Handling Car: The Winner - Audi R8"

http://image.motortrend.com/f/features/performance/10537835+w455/112_0810_06l+2008_audi_r8+side_view.jpg[/quote]

R8v10 (2009) ..... The best is just about to get BETTER. :dig:

[RXBG]

great. just another excuse to go and drive my car again when i get off of work.

[Benman]

From the test, it looks like the R8 and GTR are very, very close in the ride/handling department... :thumb:

Ben:addict:

[RXBG]

From the test, it looks like the R8 and GTR are very, very close in the ride/handling department... :thumb:

Ben:addict:

but that's about it. :applause:

GTR's have been out for a month only. i've already seen 4. bang for the buck fo sho'. but....

[Z07]

Well, the title of the article (http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0810_americas_best_handling_car_conclusion/index.html) says:
"America's Best Handling Car: The Winner - Audi R8"

In all fairness that's not what the results say:

GTR

1st to respond to rapid steering.
1st to complete all 3 components of fast hand
2nd on figure of 8
2nd on handling course
1st on lane change
3rd on ride quality
10 (without rapid steering - 9) (without rapid steering or ride quality - 6)


R8

3rd to respond to rapid steering.
3rd to complete all 3 components of fast hand
4th on figure of 8
3rd on handling course
3rd on lane change
2nd on ride quality
18 (without rapid steering - 15) (without rapid steering or ride quality - 13)

ACR

9th to respond to rapid steering.
2nd to complete all 3 components of fast hand
1st on figure of 8
1st on handling course
2nd on lane change
10th ("WAT?") on ride quality
25 (without rapid steering - 16) (without rapid steering or ride quality - 6)

Lowest value wins.

[RXBG]

In all fairness that's not what the results say:

GTR

1st to respond to rapid steering.
1st to complete all 3 components of fast hand
2nd on figure of 8
2nd on handling course
1st on lane change
3rd on ride quality
10 (without rapid steering - 9) (without rapid steering or ride quality - 6)


R8

3rd to respond to rapid steering.
3rd to complete all 3 components of fast hand
4th on figure of 8
3rd on handling course
3rd on lane change
2nd on ride quality
18 (without rapid steering - 15) (without rapid steering or ride quality - 13)

ACR

9th to respond to rapid steering.
2nd to complete all 3 components of fast hand
1st on figure of 8
1st on handling course
2nd on lane change
10th ("WAT?") on ride quality
25 (without rapid steering - 16) (without rapid steering or ride quality - 6)

Lowest value wins.

the sum is greater than all its parts.

[pampas]

In all fairness that's not what the results say:

GTR

1st to respond to rapid steering.
1st to complete all 3 components of fast hand
2nd on figure of 8
2nd on handling course
1st on lane change
3rd on ride quality
10 (without rapid steering - 9) (without rapid steering or ride quality - 6)


R8

3rd to respond to rapid steering.
3rd to complete all 3 components of fast hand
4th on figure of 8
3rd on handling course
3rd on lane change
2nd on ride quality
18 (without rapid steering - 15) (without rapid steering or ride quality - 13)

ACR

9th to respond to rapid steering.
2nd to complete all 3 components of fast hand
1st on figure of 8
1st on handling course
2nd on lane change
10th ("WAT?") on ride quality
25 (without rapid steering - 16) (without rapid steering or ride quality - 6)

Lowest value wins.

Fair or not that's what the people who actually wrote the article think about the R8. They also wrote the title, you know .. :)

If you look at values the R8 is close to the winner every time, no matter what test is it. And I think the title refers to the overall impressions of those cars, not just one criteria.

Anyway, I 100% agree with the title of the article. The R8 is a great great car in all respect not just one or a few.

[Z07]

the sum is greater than all its parts.
I agree, there's something fanatastic about the R8 but I thought the whole purpose of all these retardedly complicated measurements was to establish performance figures. Looks like they wasted their time if they were going to base the conclusion on a subjective analysis.

Nevermind, I'm sure the V10 will have it subjectively and analytically.

[RXBG]

I agree, there's something fanatastic about the R8 but I thought the whole purpose of all these retardedly complicated measurements was to establish performance figures. Looks like they wasted their time if they were going to base the conclusion on a subjective analysis.

Nevermind, I'm sure the V10 will have it subjectively and analytically.


it's not about the fact that it posts one number in a particular objective area. it's about how they (numbers) all combine and complement each other. and how the car achieves each number is most important.

[Damienr8]

Woo hoo, back from vacation guys and girls. Nice writeup. Again the R8 remains victorious!

[Z07]

...and how the car achieves each number which is most important.

Which is subjective. In C&D the M3 wins many comparisons by the same reasoning. Not saying that the reasoning is wrong but why set out to do a scientific analysis if you're going to resort back to how your arse feels about the car.

[Damienr8]

Which is subjective. In C&D the M3 wins many comparisons by the same reasoning. Not saying that the reasoning is wrong but why set out to do a scientific analysis if you're going to resort back to how your arse feels about the car.

I think what RXBG is trying to get across is that while Figures equals facts, the R8 winning the comparison shows that figures do not always win the battle. Its a combination of engineering, asthetics, feel, etc. that all come together to make a car the best handling car of the bunch.

RXBG, please feel free to correct me if i am wrong about your statement.

[Z07]

Its a combination of engineering, asthetics, feel, etc. that all come together to make a car the best handling car of the bunch.


Oh I'm well aware of that but aesthetics and feel are subjective measures and I don't understand why they went all mythbusters with the scientific rigour and then largely ignored it. I'm also well aware that an R8 looks better than a GTR etc. but the conclusion could have been delivered far quicker, minus the gadgetry with a few laps of the track and some road miles in each car. My objection isn't to the conclusion it's to the retarded way they went about arriving at said conclusion.

[wedouglas]

Oh I'm well aware of that but aesthetics and feel are subjective measures and I don't understand why they went all mythbusters with the scientific rigour and then largely ignored it. I'm also well aware that an R8 looks better than a GTR etc. but the conclusion could have been delivered far quicker, minus the gadgetry with a few laps of the track and some road miles in each car. My objection isn't to the conclusion it's to the retarded way they went about arriving at said conclusion.

Well, I think you have to consider how they went about getting the results. They said that while the GTR had amazing numbers and slight understeer, it can turn into really bad snap oversteer which requires a very good driver to save. Same thing about the Viper, when you put it over the limits, it takes too much skill to bring it back.

While the Viper and the GTR can put down amazing numbers, it's how one goes about achieving those numbers. It's probably far more difficult to make a Viper do what the R8 can do, regardless if the Viper can go above and beyond. I'd also like to see how much close the R8 would be with semi-slicks like the Viper and more equal power. I would expect a car with that much more power and less weight and track rubber to have a faster lap and not because of how it handles.

This is just my take on it.

[Damienr8]

Oh I'm well aware of that but aesthetics and feel are subjective measures and I don't understand why they went all mythbusters with the scientific rigour and then largely ignored it. I'm also well aware that an R8 looks better than a GTR etc. but the conclusion could have been delivered far quicker, minus the gadgetry with a few laps of the track and some road miles in each car. My objection isn't to the conclusion it's to the retarded way they went about arriving at said conclusion.

I personally wouldn't call their conclusion retarded. Yes they went with "Facts" and "Numbers" first and basically concluded that the Viper and GTR were very impressive. But they also weighed in other subjective measures, which were critical components in MotorTrend's diagnosis of the handling limits of these cars. So in their eyes (and in MANY other automotive publications eyes), the R8 one over it's competition. Basically, if this test was based on numbers, the winner would be obvious, but as seen here, conclusions are not always strictly made based on facts.


This is clearly stated in the first paragraph of the article.

"If handling were simply about lap times and lateral-g numbers, the awesome Dodge Viper ACR would have run away with this test. But as our data show, and as Randy Pobst confirmed, handling is about nuance and consistency. If you look closely at the graphs, the diagrams, and the computer traces from our objective testing, three cars consistently produced the smoothest curves, or the most closely grouped data points: Audi R8, BMW M3, and Nissan GT-R. And two of those three-the R8 and the M3-figured right at the top of Pobst's subjective rankings"

Now, what could have helped us immensely, was if Motortrend gave a Clear and Concise definition of what HANDLING meant, by their standards. Then, there would have been no doubt whether or not the R8 met their criteria.

In my personal opinion, their should have been a tie between the R8 and GTR.

[Z07]

I personally wouldn't call their conclusion retarded.
Their conclusion isn't retarded, the lead up to the conclusion was the retarded part. As wedouglas said, their conclusion was based on at the limit feel in the end. The test could have been done minus data recording and the same conclusion derived.

Another criticism is that they write about consistency data but don't make this data available. This is bad journalism IMHO. In the end it's just unclear as to how results were weighted against subjective assessments, what all the areas of appraisal were and what importance was applied to all areas of appraisal. As a research paper this would fail.

[Benman]

Their conclusion isn't retarded, the lead up to the conclusion was the retarded part.

I actually think Z07 has a great point. Motortrend went waaaaaay overboard with "scientific data" that somehow proved the GTR (whoops, I meant R8) was the "winner".

They should have just been honest up front and thrown out all the crap "science" from the start. Just like every car test before that one. Sujective is what all car mag tests are. But don't use science to "prove" something when it doesn't prove a damn thing. And worse, prove the "wrong" car wins and then backtrack!?! :doh:

Ben:addict:

[Damienr8]

Their conclusion isn't retarded, the lead up to the conclusion was the retarded part. As wedouglas said, their conclusion was based on at the limit feel in the end. The test could have been done minus data recording and the same conclusion derived.

Another criticism is that they write about consistency data but don't make this data available. This is bad journalism IMHO. In the end it's just unclear as to how results were weighted against subjective assessments, what all the areas of appraisal were and what importance was applied to all areas of appraisal. As a research paper this would fail.

After reading the article a couple more times over, i can understand where you are coming from now. It seems that the relative test data that conclusively deemed the GTR as the winner, was overshadowed by subjective criticism. In this test it seems that numbers didnt matter much at all (which may not be the case in many other tests).

And as Ben stated, most if not every car mags have subjective test winners (too a point, as stated above). I suppose this is relevant because if every test was based on raw data, why even have the tests in the first place. The car with the best numbers will always win. And as automotive enthusiasts, we all know that numbers (facts) doesnt always equal "the best". So i suppose that without subjective criticism, tests wouldnt actually be tests, but instead, a bunch of fact sheets.

So what i gathered from all this is that the outcome of the test would have been more "accurate" if subjective criticism didnt outweight the facts to the extent that it did.

Z07, a good idea would be to e-mail MotorTrend on your thoughts on the article. Who knows, maybe they will review it and re-publish it in a different format. I for one would be interested in this.

[Benman]

I suppose this is relevant because if every test was based on raw data, why even have the tests in the first place. The car with the best numbers will always win. And as automotive enthusiasts, we all know that numbers (facts) doesnt always equal "the best". So i suppose that without subjective criticism, tests wouldnt actually be tests, but instead, a bunch of fact sheets.



I believe you articulated my point better than I did, thanks. :)

Yes, I am all for subjective testing, hell, like Motortrend, I prefer the R8 over the GTR any day (when price is not factored in), but then just state what you feel is superior, vs scientific "data" somehow "proving" what is superior. :doh:

Ben:addict:

[RXBG]

I think what RXBG is trying to get across is that while Figures equals facts, the R8 winning the comparison shows that figures do not always win the battle. Its a combination of engineering, asthetics, feel, etc. that all come together to make a car the best handling car of the bunch.

RXBG, please feel free to correct me if i am wrong about your statement.

you're correct.

while car A may have produced the best score in various of objective measurements what they are trying to state is that it wasn't an easy accomplishment to get those numbers. for example:

http://www.motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0810_americas_best_handling_car_contenders_ins trument_tests/photo_40.html

while the viper scores best here, the transitioning was hell. it achieves the numbers. but not in the correct way. this "correct way" is the fudge factor Z07 has an issue with. in medical terms this introduces a confounding element into the final analysis and determination of winner status. i always refer to female analogies. were this a sex-performance-in-bed competition, the viper would be the woman that rides you best on top, but that when switching positions knocks you on the head with her heel as she turns around to do the 69. the next day with a black eye you would not tell your friends she was the best, even if she could move her hips faster than the one that came in second and didn't manhandle you.

kapish?

[Benman]

i always refer to female analogies. were this a sex-performance-in-bed competition, the viper would be the woman that rides you best on top, but that when switching positions knocks you on the head with her heel as she turns around to do the 69. the next day with a black eye you would not tell your friends she was the best, even if she could move her hips faster than the one that came in second and didn't manhandle you.

kapish?

You are wrong. Any time one has a black eye from the previous night's sex... that my friend, is GREAT sex. Yes, we have a winner. See how "subjective" tests go?

Ben:addict:

[Damienr8]

You are wrong. Any time one has a black eye from the previous night's sex... that my friend, is GREAT sex. Yes, we have a winner. See how "subjective" tests go?

Ben:addict:

Im going to have to agree with you on this one Ben, im definitely into a little roughness :jlol: . HILARIOUS Analogy though RXBG. I laughed out loud on this one! :hihi:

[RXBG]

You are wrong. Any time one has a black eye from the previous night's sex... that my friend, is GREAT sex. Yes, we have a winner. See how "subjective" tests go?

Ben:addict:


masochist. the masochist should always be the femme. i suppose you like your blowjobs with tooth action. how many scars you got down there ben?

or.... gimp outfits and leather helmets to wear? :applause:

[Z07]

I'm trying to think of a female analogy to the GTR....

A beautiful girl who has always performed with great vigour but seems a little insecure, and part of you thinks she may kill you in your sleep, even though there is very little real evidence to suggest that she will.

[Benman]

masochist.... :applause: :applause:
How could one possibly be afraid of a little teeth action? Are not all BJs conducted in such a fashion? ;)

All joking aside (although I am quite serious about teeth), my point is it only takes 6 masochists to be best out of 10 when voting for what is the "best" sex. The 4 "normal" sex folk, although, they may be shocked, will lose the vote. 6 says black eyes and teeth marks are a good thing, 4 say no way, but "subjective" majority wins.

Again, I agree I would take the R8 any day of the week over the GTR when price is not factored (if factored, then I'd have a tougher choice), put these mags should not pimp junk science, claiming science selected the best car. "Science" selected the GTR. They should have been man enough to state either that, or, state their science was bunk (to paraphrase Ford).

Ben:addict:

[RXBG]

I'm trying to think of a female analogy to the GTR....

A beautiful girl who has always performed with great vigour but seems a little insecure, and part of you thinks she may kill you in your sleep, even though there is very little real evidence to suggest that she will.

GTR- nope. that's the kind of girl that is in great shape and performs like a maniac, but is ugly as sin. the kind that would require a drink before i drove her.

and i'd only drive her in one position.

[RXBG]

:applause: :applause:
How could one possibly be afraid of a little teeth action? Are not all BJs conducted in such a fashion? ;)

All joking aside (although I am quite serious about teeth), my point is it only takes 6 masochists to be best out of 10 when voting for what is the "best" sex. The 4 "normal" sex folk, although, they may be shocked, will lose the vote. 6 says black eyes and teeth marks are a good thing, 4 say no way, but "subjective" majority wins.

Again, I agree I would take the R8 any day of the week over the GTR when price is not factored (if factored, then I'd have a tougher choice), put these mags should not pimp junk science, claiming science selected the best car. "Science" selected the GTR. They should have been man enough to state either that, or, state their science was bunk (to paraphrase Ford).

Ben:addict:


aaaaw ben. someone miffed their next car didn"t come in first? :w:

:D

[Benman]

aaaaw ben. someone miffed their next car didn"t come in first? :w:

:D :D
I passed on the GTR. ;)

Ben:addict:

[Damienr8]

:applause: :applause:
How could one possibly be afraid of a little teeth action? Are not all BJs conducted in such a fashion? ;)

All joking aside (although I am quite serious about teeth), my point is it only takes 6 masochists to be best out of 10 when voting for what is the "best" sex. The 4 "normal" sex folk, although, they may be shocked, will lose the vote. 6 says black eyes and teeth marks are a good thing, 4 say no way, but "subjective" majority wins.

Again, I agree I would take the R8 any day of the week over the GTR when price is not factored (if factored, then I'd have a tougher choice), put these mags should not pimp junk science, claiming science selected the best car. "Science" selected the GTR. They should have been man enough to state either that, or, state their science was bunk (to paraphrase Ford).

Ben:addict:


LOL you two are killing me here LOL :lovl: :lovl:

[Damienr8]

http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leatherhoodfullmaskdetatr1.jpgGTR- nope. that's the kind of girl that is in great shape and performs like a maniac, but is ugly as sin. the kind that would require a drink before i drove her.

and i'd only drive her in one position.

I think i would require about 5 drinks, handcuffs and

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2838783/2/istockphoto_2838783_sexy_black_leather_domination_ mask.jpg

[Z07]

I think i would require about 5 drinks, handcuffs and

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2838783/2/istockphoto_2838783_sexy_black_leather_domination_ mask.jpg
Even driving her drunk with that on you'd probably still win.:lovl:

There's one for Top Gear. Stig does a lap in an M3 and then one in a GTR. Then he has a double and does another lap in the GTR and repeat until he laps slower.

[RXBG]

I think i would require about 5 drinks, handcuffs and

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2838783/2/istockphoto_2838783_sexy_black_leather_domination_ mask.jpg

damn damien. that lpoks great on you. :lovl: