If porsche own more then 50% of VW Group.

[The Pretender]

http://www.globalautoindex.com/images/news/1620/1_orig.jpg

Dr. Martin Winterkorn is reported to have threatened his own resignation as chief executive of the Volkswagen Group if Porsche AG interferes in group operations says Forbes.com. Porsche, now owning 31 percent of the VW Group, is moving to own more than 50 percent by year's end and brands like Audi that compete directly with the brand are in jeopardy of a change in direction mandated by the new owners says the report.
Good background on the subject can be found in this month's Porsche-focused Car Magazine from the UK and on sale now in most US news stands. In the mag, Car has published an interview with Porsche boss and Piech cousing Dr. Wolfgang Porsche. Seeing the Porsche leader's position, not always in line with Piech who's been leading the VW Group for years, is interesting to say the least. Amongst his statements, Porsche suggests that all projects must be profitable (take note Bugatti) and that directly competitive cars like the R8 must be examined. The interview is a must-read if you're looking to be informed on the nuances of the Porsche family and how family affairs will shape any future Volkswagen Group as owned by Porsche.


Full Forbes article. (http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/06/01/afx5067350.html)

Jarod.

[Rage]

Porsche ending the R8...I can belatedly swallow.

neutering the TTR...I'd have to think about...If porsche start messing with the RS cars in to clear the ground for their own Cayenne/panamera/P-Golf/God knows what else type cars then ill leave Audi and support a much more independant (Read BMW) Manufacturer.

For me, this is starting to get worrying.

[The Pretender]

Porsche ending the R8...I can belatedly swallow.

neutering the TTR...I'd have to think about...If porsche start messing with the RS cars in to clear the ground for their own Cayenne/panamera/P-Golf/God knows what else type cars then ill leave Audi and support a much more independant (Read BMW) Manufacturer.

For me, this is starting to get worrying.
Audi A8/S8 is close to the Panamera, Q7 is close to the Cayenne, the A3/S3 is close to the P-Golf, TT/TT Roadster is close to the Boxster/Cayman.
If it go's like that we will end up only with Diesel Audi's as Avant's/sportback's. :hahahehe:

Jarod.

[RXBG]

it is what i have been saying all along. interestingly, american forums are overwhelmingly positive about it (one reason i don't frequent them much- their irreality and predictable ignorant, baseless, fake, optimism)....

i know that the "excitement" in audi would be annihilated. and i think it is smart that the german government upheld the "vw" law.

why, it would be akin to ford buying GM. not good for the american car industry and the economy as a whole....

[Rage]

it is what i have been saying all along. interestingly, american forums are overwhelmingly positive about it (one reason i don't frequent them much- their irreality and predictable ignorant, baseless, fake, optimism)....

i know that the "excitement" in audi would be annihilated. and i think it is smart that the german government upheld the "vw" law.

why, it would be akin to ford buying GM. not good for the american car industry and the economy as a whole....

That law has effectively been anulled by the EU. There is nothing to hold Porsche back in effecting >50% (ie full control) over VW. Infact this is already under way with the stake being pushed to 50% or higher very sson.

They have already signalled the end of the R8. How much will future RS cars be neutured?? Who knows? If they have handicapped their won Cayman because it could potentially embarrass the sacred (and dated) 911, you dont think they will handicap the TTRS, RS5, S7 etc??

Im definatley not cool with this.

[masimo]

I just cant understand one thing. Where are they getting the money from ?
Isn't VW Group more profitable than Porsche ? How can porsche made more money than VW , Audi , Bugatti , Bentley , Skoda , Seat , Lambo , MAN and Scania put together :vhmmm:

[Audiphile]

That law has effectively been anulled by the EU. There is nothing to hold Porsche back in effecting >50% (ie full control) over VW. Infact this is already under way with the stake being pushed to 50% or higher very sson.

They have already signalled the end of the R8. How much will future RS cars be neutured?? Who knows? If they have handicapped their won Cayman because it could potentially embarrass the sacred (and dated) 911, you dont think they will handicap the TTRS, RS5, S7 etc??

Im definatley not cool with this.

A bit pessemistic don't you think? Porsche has not signaled its objection to the R8. You have to read the CAR magazine article carefully in terms what Porsche was saying. Too much overlap between brands makes no sense. He was referring to VW trying to go upmarket against Audi. Bugatti is a waste of time and a car no one needs. If Porsche commits hari-kari against with Audi or VW then they do not deserve to be in business. Do they seriously think an Audi owner will automatically switch to Porsche? If I cannot have my A8L then I'll buy the Masariti Quattroporte instead not some Panarama. Porsche is delusional to think otherwise.

[chewym]

I just cant understand one thing. Where are they getting the money from ?
Isn't VW Group more profitable than Porsche ? How can porsche made more money than VW , Audi , Bugatti , Bentley , Skoda , Seat , Lambo , MAN and Scania put together :vhmmm:

Exactly, can't someone make up a group that will buy enough shares to prevent Porsche from having 50%. Who is Porsche buying all of this VW from?

One thing is that Porsche probably knows is that falling VW/Audi stock will ruin their finances, just as it has really, really made Porsche look good lately.

[Phage]

Bugatti is a waste of time and a car no one needs.

Tell that to Piech his wife. She has one.

[Rage]

Porsche has not signaled its objection to the R8.

Unfortunately it has. Im at work all day but will find you the source later if youre interested.

[The RS6]

http://germancarscene.com/wp-content/uploads/audi-porsche-logo-29-11-06.JPG

[Rage]

He was referring to VW trying to go upmarket against Audi.

Overlap?

R8 vs 911
R8V10 vs CGT
TTR vs Cayman/Boxster
S7 vs Panamera
Q7V12 vs Cayenne

There is much greater overlap/inhouse competition between Audi and Porsche then there ever was/will be between VW and Audi.

[RXBG]

That law has effectively been anulled by the EU. There is nothing to hold Porsche back in effecting >50% (ie full control) over VW. Infact this is already under way with the stake being pushed to 50% or higher very sson.

They have already signalled the end of the R8. How much will future RS cars be neutured?? Who knows? If they have handicapped their won Cayman because it could potentially embarrass the sacred (and dated) 911, you dont think they will handicap the TTRS, RS5, S7 etc??

Im definatley not cool with this.

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15582

[darkart]

Do they seriously think an Audi owner will automatically switch to Porsche?
Never! Never! Never!
I am still not an Audi driver (because i can't afford it), but will never buy a Porsche. I hate them.
I hope Audi, somehow, will keep its individuality and independence.

TDI Power and Quattro RULES!

[OfftheHeZie]

Porsche just might make me get teary eyed over a car.

Bastards. I still love Porsche though, just not as much as Audi.

~Mason

[Audiphile]

Unfortunately it has. Im at work all day but will find you the source later if youre interested.

As I posted earlier, Porsche seems delusional if it thinks stopping the R8 will lead to more Porsche sales. They should enjoy the profit from both ends of the spectrum. Business-wise it does not make sense. The profit flows both ways and both companies are better for it. The R8 is a very limited production car anyway. If this is true, Porsche management strikes me as incompetent then, simple as that. 911 sales are irrelevent of the R8. Plus Audi owners are quite different from Porsche owners in terms of vehicles. Porsche seems really out of touch here.

The only scenerio is Porsche wants to become a complete premium brand offering vehicles in all nitches. If this is their eventual goal, then yes Audi is in the way. They should then let Audi go independent rather than create hinderance to its global success.

All I can say to Porsche- :noshake: :nono: :vhmmm: :confused:

[BLITZEN]

Sorry to be an "idealistic" American, but even if someday Porsche owns 51% of Audi, doesn't mean they will just be able to shut Audi down or do with it whatever they please. There will still be millions of other shareholders that will care what happens to the company.

[ZeroCool]

@blitzen ...

Do you really think that? If Porsche owns 51% of VW ... and VW owns 99% of AUDI ... there is nobody else who can say anything against it...

Only NOW there is the possibility that someone say NO - we don't want that Porsche own more then 30% of VW

[Rage]

As I posted earlier, Porsche seems delusional if it thinks stopping the R8 will lead to more Porsche sales. They should enjoy the profit from both ends of the spectrum. Business-wise it does not make sense. The profit flows both ways and both companies are better for it. The R8 is a very limited production car anyway. If this is true, Porsche management strikes me as incompetent then, simple as that. 911 sales are irrelevent of the R8. Plus Audi owners are quite different from Porsche owners in terms of vehicles. Porsche seems really out of touch here.

The only scenerio is Porsche wants to become a complete premium brand offering vehicles in all nitches. If this is their eventual goal, then yes Audi is in the way. They should then let Audi go independent rather than create hinderance to its global success.

All I can say to Porsche- :noshake: :nono: :vhmmm: :confused:

In most regards I agree with you but I do think that Porsche is looking to expand into becoming an Audi/MB/BMW type car maker. In that sense those companies are direct competition. And which one poses the most significant threat with upcoming R8/TTR/RSX models. I think it is Audi. Audi is also the one under their control.

[Rage]

http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15582

Thanks. Was not aware of that they still cannot influence more than a 20% leverage (equal to state of saxony). But that still means they have as much shout as the current owners of VW/Audi. I still think Porsche is more sneaky than just to give up at that.

[RXBG]

In most regards I agree with you but I do think that Porsche is looking to expand into becoming an Audi/MB/BMW type car maker. In that sense those companies are direct competition. And which one poses the most significant threat with upcoming R8/TTR/RSX models. I think it is Audi. Audi is also the one under their control.

it is clear and we all agree that porsche is after audi. one can mask any business decision under many guises, including killing off a profitable car brand. porsche didn't want to buy vw because they felt bad for vw and wanted to help make it more profitable. they bought it because they see it as a threat. and audi is the greatest one. i think their action shows that they literally sh*t their pants when the R8 came out. lots of underwear had to be changed in the porsche mansion. perhaps the superbowl commercial should have had a dead porsche in the bed rather than a bentley's.

porsche went too long with one main line...... and they do not feel the panamera is going to be a big success. ugly. ugly. and............... ugly.

i side with lower saxony. porsche et al can kiss my :bigeyes:

[chewym]

Porsche should not be scared of Audi with the R8 and Lambo. 5,000 R8s and 2,500 Gallardos. Maybe the R8 and the Gallardo make the 911 appear less attractive so it loses some sales indirectly.

Porsche is pretty much all badge. Their badge is extremely powerful. Porsche sold more Cayennes in the US than Audi did Q7s, and VW did with the Touareg. In fact, while all SUV sales were falling, Porsche actually sold more Cayennes than a year before. People want to have the Porsche badge, but the 911 can not appeal to all buyers, because they might want some practicality, and they don't really care about actual sport experience. That's why the Panamera would probably sell well in the US, it might be really ugly (the Cayenne isn't a stunner for sure) and still sell well.

In the US market, I imagine the Panamera outselling the A7/A8/RS6 vehicles.

[BLITZEN]

Smart for Porsche to invest in Audi. Not to eliminate a competitor, but to diversify their investments. Audi is strong worldwide with a wide variety of vehicles reaching a broad target market. Porsche is still a niche.

It could be good for Audi too. Demand for the stock raises it's price.

ZeroCool, what do you think you (or anyone) could do about it? It's called a takeover and that's one of the disadvantages to being a publicly traded company. Anyone can buy you.

[Marv]

I really hope it's not all doom and gloom for Audi. I think Porsche's motivation mainly comes from:
1) Take over VW before someone else does to protect the supply of Cayenne platform, engines, hybrid drive etc + current R&D sharing on new models. Cayenne is a huge cash cow for Porsche.
2) To avoid huge fines for EU sales because of average CO2 levels well above the EU manufacturers' target average. Combining with VW will pool the average CO2 across Porsche and VW. Other high CO2 car makers are either exempt because of low volumes or are already pooled with low CO2 cars in the company.

To what extent they try to interfere elsewhere time will tell - I'm so hoping it's not too negative.

[Audiphile]

So, what's up with the Porsche Golf competitor now floating about the net? If this is true, then Porsche wants to become a complete premium brand which spells problems for Audi. Best for Audi to go independent and maintain technology sharing contracts with VAG.

[Marv]

So, what's up with the Porsche Golf competitor now floating about the net? If this is true, then Porsche wants to become a complete premium brand which spells problems for Audi. Best for Audi to go independent and maintain technology sharing contracts with VAG.

If this turns out to be true, I think you are right - Audi is better off alone. But I can't believe it. Surely it is more than the Porsche brand can get away with. 911 buyers would lose that Porsche exclusivity and look elsewhere. Porsche would be shooting themselves in the foot.