Rs 6 Track Days

[garbi]

Hi All
I Am New To The Forum But Your Advise Is Needed.

I Have A Rs6 2004 , Std , Which I Finally Took To The Track( Kyalami , South Africa), It Was A Horrible Experience . The Car Was A Boat And Handled Extremely Badly And It Felt That The Power Had Also Gone A Bit.shocked With My Times ,
I Climbed In A Stock Vw Gti 07 And Clocked The Exact Time As I Did With The Rs6.
Do I Have Problems With The Drc Or Management System ???
Or Is This Car Just Not Meant To Be Near A Track ,
I Fealt A Bit Better When A Rs4 ( With A Racing Driver) Clocked Only 2 Seconds Faster .

Can I Get This Car Track Ready Or Am I Wasting My Time .

[BLITZEN]

Question 1: Does "Std" mean manual transmission? If so, are you sure the car you're driving is a real RS6?

Otherwise I don't understand why you would feel bad about it keeping up with a VW GTi on a track and only 2 seconds slower than an RS4? Those other 2 cars were made for tight turns and track conditions. To think that your RS6 (weighing a ton more and able to hold 5 adults) can keep up while outrunning them on open Autobahn, I think is incredible.

Welcome to the forum. Enjoy! :0)

[garbi]

not at all - new m5 is 10 seconds faster
auto- tip tronic transmission and yes it is a rs6 thanks
standerd as in no ecu,shocks or exhaust.

rs 4 should also be ashamed of its time
bmw csl - 8 seconds faster

rs6 is between 200---500 kg heavier then the rs4 and gti.
but we have major horses and 4 wheel drive

the drc seemed confused.gearboz was average in manual drive( tip)

it should not be this slow though.
how good is the bilsteins for this car ?

[JAXRS6]

I bought mine new in 2003 but decided not to track it for several years after reading numerous owner reports that it was not much fun. The C5 RS6 is not only heavy but very front-heavy compared to the more balanced Beemer. I think the figures are something like 62% front / 38% rear for weight on the Audi, 50-50 (or close) for the BMW. Even though I almost flunked high school physics, I retained enough to know that the RS6's (im)balance will result in strong understeer on a track with tight turns. In addition owners said tires and brakes get toasted, at least in front.

For years I sought in vain for a track event with wider turns that would accommodate the RS6, and finally found it last December. That's when four American owners were among 150 cars driven at the first ever Audi driving school held at Daytona International Speedway in Florida. The longer turns and steep banking (31 degrees) on Daytona's tri-oval made all the difference. "Cruising" at 130-140 mph with little worry about turns (because they're so heavily banked) was thrilling, to say the least. Everyone except me had prior track experience in their RS6, and all three agreed Daytona was the best track they had experienced for the RS6. Registration just opened for the 2008 event, which this time is limited to 100 drivers and will be held December 12-14 at Daytona.

Still, there are caveats. For our school the Daytona track was set up with a small unbanked "road course" (tighter turns) in the infield. On that, the RS6 did not do so well, its front-heavy proportions causing the car to slide some once the track heated up. Also, based on prior owner posts, I beefed up my brakes by adding Pagid blue bads, stainless steel brake lines, brake fluid with higher temperature tolerance, and brake ducts from the VW Phaeton. I experienced no fade, no soft pedal, and brakes always worked well, even when hitting the pedal hard from triple digit speeds (although I didn't do that often). One owner who arrived with brakes that were purely stock missed two 25 minute track sessions while waiting for replacement pads.

Here's the link to writeups about last year's event:
http://rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13921&highlight=daytona

Below is a link to registration for December of this year. Cost is $999 -- not cheap, but it's three days, and brake mods that worked for me are less costly than a new setup from MovIt or elsewhere. Weather permitting (and it was fine last year), thrills are all but guaranteed:

Application forms can be downloaded from the Ohio Valley Chapter web site at http://ohio.audiclubna.org
(click on "events" tab and then click on the "events calendar for 2008" link and then scroll down to Daytona).

[garbi]

you are 100% right , the car reacted as you said but the understeer was like a front wheel drive with attitude. the brakes would only give me 3-4 lapps before cooking the fluid.
is there any way of splitting the power ratio in favour of the rear , this would eliminate quite a bit of understeer and then with a stiff front step up it should balance the car a bit.
is there anyone out there that has raced this car ?

[BLITZEN]

Amazing it's such a crappy track car. I wonder how Randy Pobst was able to win the ALMS Championship driving one? :wo:

[Aronis]

Amazing it's such a crappy track car. I wonder how Randy Pobst was able to win the ALMS Championship driving one? :wo:

Could not help myself. Laughed off my chair.

That was a stock RS6 that Randy was driving? I understand your point, but...

Mike

[JAXRS6]

Amazing it's such a crappy track car. I wonder how Randy Pobst was able to win the ALMS Championship driving one? :wo:

Randy was among the instructors at Daytona last December. At the Saturday night dinner he raved so much about this car, especially its torque, that I loaned him my hat with the RS6 logo until he concluded his remarks!

At a Florida rally several years ago, a tech who worked on the racing RS6 for Champion talked to about 30 of us. I remember him saying how much lighter the race car was -- started out around 3200 lbs, I think, then had to add weight after some victories & ended up at 3600+. But that's still well under the 4200 that our beasts weigh, and the difference is even more pronounced when you consider that the ALMS car had about 625 hp.

So how did he win? Four things come to mind: Torque, torque, torque, and great skill.

[SpinEcho]

I have tracked my RS6 about 10 times now, including first trackday of the season today. As those above have pointed out, there are two main enemies: an engine in front of the front wheels, and excessive mass. As for suspension and brake issues, these have been covered here in a multitude of posts (search....)

Please, what do you want? Immunity from the laws of physics? It's an autobahn cruiser, so just accept that you won't be setting any cornering records, but you sure can enjoy that slug of torque out of every apex.

:addict:

[JAXRS6]

Please, what do you want? Immunity from the laws of physics? It's an autobahn cruiser, so just accept that you won't be setting any cornering records, but you sure can enjoy that slug of torque out of every apex.

:addict:

Exactly! Trying to make the C5 RS 6 perform well on tight turns is like trying to pound a round peg into a square hole.

Still, with steeply banked turns that go on for 3000 feet, Daytona is a different story. :race:

[Mr Balsen]

I believe it also depends on the track. Go to the Ring and you will see...

Frederic

[Jani]

I have tracked my plus a couple of times now, one of the at the Ring. I disagree and agree.

I agree with Frederic, RS6 is totally suited to the Nordschleife.

I disagree with first post though. On modern tracks you do get some understeer if you go over the limit. Even then it is more balanced than for example RS4 B5. If it feels like a boat, you are overdriving into the corners. Go in a bit slower, or use trail braking + enjoy the crushing torque out of corners.

If you expect RS6 to be a track car, your expectations are wrong. But it is not a boat, and it is very quick on track as well. But the character and fun of driving on track would be better with M3's, 911's or even track prepped GTi's. Unless it is wet. Or Ring. Or wet Ring :)

[garbi]

Guys , Dont Get Me Wrong , The Rs6 Is My Baby And I Love It. Sure Its Big But I Was V Suprised On The Outcome. The Car Feels Like A Dream When You Are Cruising Round The Corners Like On A Sunday Drive But Was 5 Seconds Slower . I'm Not There To Look Preety - I'm There To Race A Take The Car To The Limit . Sure There Are Better Driver Then Me And Would Probably Go A Bit Faster , But Rate Myself Ok On A Track Since I Have About 25 Years Of Racing Experience.mainly Karting.
I Just Know That This Can Be Set Up Etter And That What I Need To Do With You Guys Helping Me.
If I Have To Lighten The Car It Will Be Done , Suspension And Power Must Be Improved .
Is There Any Electronic System That Can Be Introduced To Play With The Front And Back Power Distribution??
Can I Get Hold Of The Guys That Have Actually Raced This Car ?

In South Africa Everyone Is Scared To Toach /play With This Car As They Are Not Familair With It.

[ben916]

I bought mine new in 2003 but decided not to track it for several years after reading numerous owner reports that it was not much fun. The C5 RS6 is not only heavy but very front-heavy compared to the more balanced Beemer. I think the figures are something like 62% front / 38% rear for weight on the Audi, 50-50 (or close) for the BMW. Even though I almost flunked high school physics, I retained enough to know that the RS6's (im)balance will result in strong understeer on a track with tight turns. In addition owners said tires and brakes get toasted, at least in front.

For years I sought in vain for a track event with wider turns that would accommodate the RS6, and finally found it last December. That's when four American owners were among 150 cars driven at the first ever Audi driving school held at Daytona International Speedway in Florida. The longer turns and steep banking (31 degrees) on Daytona's tri-oval made all the difference. "Cruising" at 130-140 mph with little worry about turns (because they're so heavily banked) was thrilling, to say the least. Everyone except me had prior track experience in their RS6, and all three agreed Daytona was the best track they had experienced for the RS6. Registration just opened for the 2008 event, which this time is limited to 100 drivers and will be held December 12-14 at Daytona.

Still, there are caveats. For our school the Daytona track was set up with a small unbanked "road course" (tighter turns) in the infield. On that, the RS6 did not do so well, its front-heavy proportions causing the car to slide some once the track heated up. Also, based on prior owner posts, I beefed up my brakes by adding Pagid blue bads, stainless steel brake lines, brake fluid with higher temperature tolerance, and brake ducts from the VW Phaeton. I experienced no fade, no soft pedal, and brakes always worked well, even when hitting the pedal hard from triple digit speeds (although I didn't do that often). One owner who arrived with brakes that were purely stock missed two 25 minute track sessions while waiting for replacement pads.

Here's the link to writeups about last year's event:
http://rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13921&highlight=daytona

Below is a link to registration for December of this year. Cost is $999 -- not cheap, but it's three days, and brake mods that worked for me are less costly than a new setup from MovIt or elsewhere. Weather permitting (and it was fine last year), thrills are all but guaranteed:

Application forms can be downloaded from the Ohio Valley Chapter web site at http://ohio.audiclubna.org
(click on "events" tab and then click on the "events calendar for 2008" link and then scroll down to Daytona).

Tires? PS2? Slicks?

[SpinEcho]

I'm Not There To Look Preety - I'm There To Race A Take The Car To The Limit . Sure There Are Better Driver Then Me And Would Probably Go A Bit Faster , But Rate Myself Ok On A Track Since I Have About 25 Years Of Racing Experience.mainly Karting.
I Just Know That This Can Be Set Up Etter And That What I Need To Do With You Guys Helping Me.
If I Have To Lighten The Car It Will Be Done , Suspension And Power Must Be Improved .
Is There Any Electronic System That Can Be Introduced To Play With The Front And Back Power Distribution??
Can I Get Hold Of The Guys That Have Actually Raced This Car ?

If you have 25 years experience racing (especially karting) why on earth do you want to track the RS6? I would have thought that you are well past the point where you would want a dedicated track car or at least a road car that will do a creditable impression of a serious track car, such as an Exige. And if you really want to "race" as you say (something banned at the trackdays I attend), then I really am puzzled as to your selection......

[JAXRS6]

Tires? PS2? Slicks?


PS2s. On my third set.

[JAXRS6]

Garbi, I wonder if you know what you've gotten yourself into. The RS 6 is a front-heavy limited production sedan crowded with wires and programs, horsepower and AWD. Aftermarket choices are limited. Just putting in a 6 spd manual tranny was too pricey for the market, costing an estimated $30K because of all the programming that needs to be changed. Changing the distribution of power from front to rear may be prohibitively expensive too. But there are some aftermarket products in brakes, suspension, "chips" and exhaust.

As far as I know the only RS6s "raced" came from Champion in Florida, driven by Randy Pobst and Michael Gallardi (sp?). I don't know how to reach them, but Randy was an instructor last year at Daytona. One of the race cars -- far lighter and with more power and a manual tranny, compared to ours -- was for sale by Champion a year or two ago. It may be gone now, but if not, maybe it'll be the car you want. Not street legal, though, and never will be since there's no VIN, I was told. But it is definitely an RS 6 race car, and it was for sale.

[BLITZEN]

I'm with JAX (and the other Audi driver was Michael Galati).

My advice is to not waste your energy and money trying to improve on such an expensive, exclusive car for track racing. After all, do you want to be a driver or a poor crew chief?

If you want to be a driver, then learn to drive this car faster than anyone's driven a street legal RS6 before - with its weight and understeer. I think it's important for any serious race car driver to learn how to push the limit with any type of car. For instance, could you race a front wheel drive with as much competence as rear wheel drive? I'm confident that Randy Pobst or Michael Schumacher could make a Ford Escort fast.

In conclusion, the RS6 is not a track car for any self-financed aspiring racer, no matter how deep their pockets are. If racing is what you want to pursue, get into class racing. At my local track, Miller Motorsports Park, they class race Mustang GT's and Mazda Miyatas. If your talents are good enough to dominate in class racing, sponsors will find you and you will go from there. Good Luck! :bye:

[DuckWingDuck]

miatas are awesome, I want to buy one to track.

[Jani]

You could have your suspension checked. DRC works fine on track as long as it is OK. But it is not a track toy, that is for sure. No idea of aftermarket suspensions.

Hotter pads + sports brakes with Phaeton ducts work, but can be on the limit at slower tracks. Expect high wear. If you have deep pockets, get Movit's carbon brakes. Or the steel ones with semi deep pockets :)

PS2's are well suited to the car on track, be it wet or dry. Semislicks I wouldn't do, even if you find ones with enough load rating. They will overheat the car, as more speed means more load and heat.

Making track biased modifications to RS6 is a bit risky IMHO, because you may end up with a slightly less compromised track car with serious compromises to the actual street usability. So best just enjoy it as it is, and/or get a focused track toy.

[garbi]

Thanks For All The Advice Gents , It Seems That This Car Is Just Not Meant To Be On The Track , And Believe Me That I Say This With Great Disappointment.

[ott]

I have done few timed trackdays on mine. Yes, it's qute big and heavy, but I have had fun anyway and I don't think it's that slow - it's just slow compared to it's power output.

For example some lap times against other standard cars and similar level driver whom I know personally:

My RS6 (trans in S position) 2.06,5
Focus ST 2.07,6
Golf R32 2.04,1
E46 330 xi 2.04,3
Golf GTI (MTM 272 hp, good driver) 2.00,5

By changing gears manually, I would lower my time second or two for sure.

[garbi]

Yes , I Also Started In 's' Mode In Which I Was Not Happy And Then Went To Manual Tip Tronic And Bettered It By 2 Seconds .
Then Went To Smooth Driving ( Felt Steady )but Lost 2 Seconds So Back To Fighting It All The Way Round
I Have Fun By Just Sitting In The Car Let Alone Driving , But Yes Any Track Day Is Fun .
To Give Yoou Some Other Times That Were There -
My Rs6 - 2.15
Gti 2.15
Porsche Gt 2 - 2.02 - Full Slicks
M3 - 2.13( Semi Licks )
350 Kw Subauru Sti - 2.06 - Worked Suspension - Semi Licks
400 Kw Subaru Sti ---2.06 Worked Suspension And Lightened- Semi Licks
Rs4 - 2.13 Racing Driver
Ferrari 360 Challanger - 2.04
M3 Turbo - 450 Kw Full Slicks , Works Suspension , Lightened- 1.58 * 2 Cars.

Remember Add About 28% To Kw To Get Hp Rating
The Bmw's Fly Around The Track

[garbi]

Spinecho ---- I Bought This Car Cause Its A Car Amounst Cars And Yes I Want To Go To My Frequent Track Days With It As Well , This Is A Weekend Car For Me , I Dont Want To Destroy It But Just Help It To Be Better On The Track

[Rutkowsky]

Yes , I Also Started In 's' Mode In Which I Was Not Happy And Then Went To Manual Tip Tronic And Bettered It By 2 Seconds .
Then Went To Smooth Driving ( Felt Steady )but Lost 2 Seconds So Back To Fighting It All The Way Round
I Have Fun By Just Sitting In The Car Let Alone Driving , But Yes Any Track Day Is Fun .
To Give Yoou Some Other Times That Were There -
My Rs6 - 2.15
Gti 2.15
Porsche Gt 2 - 2.02 - Full Slicks
M3 - 2.13( Semi Licks )
350 Kw Subauru Sti - 2.06 - Worked Suspension - Semi Licks
400 Kw Subaru Sti ---2.06 Worked Suspension And Lightened- Semi Licks
Rs4 - 2.13 Racing Driver
Ferrari 360 Challanger - 2.04
M3 Turbo - 450 Kw Full Slicks , Works Suspension , Lightened- 1.58 * 2 Cars.

Remember Add About 28% To Kw To Get Hp Rating
The Bmw's Fly Around The Track


I have e46 M3 now and it really feels home at a track

[SpinEcho]

Some people have replaced the original antiroll bar with the Hotchkiss bar and say it reduces understeer. Personally I have not tried it on my car.

[garbi]

i have ordered the sway bars, front and rear and the bils pss9's .
but i have been told that the rs4 diff gets replaced to split power to 20/80 favouring the rear , for racing purposes , anyone tried that on the rs6 ?
this will definetly help with the understeer.

[jimmy94507]

i have ordered the sway bars, front and rear and the bils pss9's .
but i have been told that the rs4 diff gets replaced to split power to 20/80 favouring the rear , for racing purposes , anyone tried that on the rs6 ?
this will definetly help with the understeer.

The Hotchkiss sway bars are a must!! I don't know about other brands.
The RS4 splits the torque 40/60 frnt/rear.
Motul RBF600 brake fluid is your frinend
Here is a thread on brakes:
http://www.rs6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11459

One can have a ton of fun with the RS6 on the track.
Smooth and slow in and very fast out of the corners.
Randy can take a slightly modded RS6 and surprise Porche's.
He's drive JP4's with sways and upgrade brakes and done this.

Have fun, Jimmy S.

[garbi]

thanks for the info.
i will keep you posted on the improved

garbi

[Bigglezworth]

I am a new RS6 owner and opted to take the ride out to my local track tonight in lieu of my NSX. I wanted to see just what speeds could be attained on the front straightaway vs. my the other cars in my group. Well I was disappointed also. Two things went entirely wrong. First the car simply didn't have any gusto tonight. Ambient air temperature was 21C. Our front straight is also used for 1/4 mile drags so it's a little more than a half mile long. The RS6 came out of turn 11 and started up the straight at 5000rpm in second gear and had all it could to do hit 190km/h prior to threshold braking going into turn 1. My NSX would turn 215km/h in stock format with a lowly 270hp engine. Yes I am very cognizant the RS6 weights a half ton more than the NSX in stock trim, but it also has 180hp and more than 200lbs of torque more. These numbers should quickly ensure the car perform to higher acceleration numbers than what I was seeing.

The second was the brakes. Being as I wanted this car for so long and finally got into one after the Gov't of Canada changed it's crash test requirements I was really stoked to see the true potential on a track where you would really hit high speeds. Brakes let me down. :cry: As mentioned in the first post for this thread, I also had brake fluid boil over after only 6-7 laps and the pedal went to the floor as mush.:brag: With that little braking I'm suspescious the previous owner utilized DOT3 instead of DOT4 or DOT5. I'm going to put on SS lines and also rebleed the system using Super blue DOT5 or racing fluid. I don't plan to place it on the track all that often as I have a perfectly good track car with my NSX. It would just be some nice reassurance that I won't crack the ride up in the event I opt to take it for a few hot laps here and there.

Now if I can just figure out why the poor acceleration times.

Tim

[garbi]

i was also very frustrated with the car on the track , so till my next track day ( 11 oct )i have already done the following.

uprated brake fluid
uprated pads - ds2500 ferodo's
kw v3 suspension ( will have to play a bit to set it up correctly )
hotchins sway bays
new 19 row oil cooler
new 19 row gearbox cooler
spare bonnet with vents
complete new custome air intake system
decat and custom exhaust
dna remap ( and trans remap)
sparco racing seat.( 5 point harness)
new 18 inch wheels with dunlop semi slick tyres.

i have really concentrated on cooling and breathing for this car as it gets into limp mode and temp's rise on the track.

after this track day i will play more with the power of the car .

i hope that this helps you.

garbi

[garbi]

oh yes and ( importantly) , wheel alignment with between 0.5 & 1 degree tow out on the back.
this will help it turn better.

[DuckWingDuck]

good lord! That is a LOT of modifications but I think at the end of the day, you're not going to be able to get away from physics and the heaviness of our car. Still, I'm sure it's fun as hell out there.

And really, this is part of the reason why I want to track the car at least once, just to see where the edge of the envelope is.

[garbi]

i just want the car to be the best it can be .... but still having regular drivablility

[SpinEcho]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, get a dedicated track car if you are serious about track days. Then bring both the track car and the Beast to track days, if you have a friend or partner who can drive one for you. This is in case it rains - then you can take the Beast out and feel like a hero as you lap all the expensive, RWD machinery that was embarrasing you earlier when it was dry :hihi: :rs6kiss:

[mmaturo]

and my 2 cents, yep get a dedicated track car...but since i can't at the moment...I've tracked my car 7 or so times...all i really needed was high temp racing brake fluid and racing pads (plus PS2s)...I've gone cheap to EPC Yellows and they work fine as anything...with my style i go through them in a day and a half but still worth it at $130 for a pair. I have never had my car go into limp mode but i can feel the heat soak coming on in performance as the day goes on...cooling down between runs is of course the most important thing. The car is heavy and useless on tight slow speed turns. Recognize that and just throw them away (brake early and don't upset the car with severe understeer) and concentrate on the bigger ones. Car is fun but it does take a bigger road course with longer straights/sweepers to enjoy it.

Goning to do Daytona i hope so can't wait to see how fun it is on a right size track for the whale.

[BLITZEN]

i just want the car to be the best it can be .... but still having regular drivablility

Oxymoron.

[garbi]

you are not wrong about the track car and not wrong that the rs6 is not ideal for the track , but hey 'm a stubborn guy and when i get get bmw's & suburu's telling me that the audi's are a joke on the track , well then i have a point to prove. we have at kyalami race track often.. bmw vs suburu vs cobra's vs audi's and they are right . no one has take n the time and effort to get a street legal audi going well on the track .every one is with bmw's or suburu's . its just great to have a car that a few times a year you can take it to the track and have fun and then have a great everyday car. just a few twicks prior to the day and the car is ready. it doesnt have to be in race trim all the time. i also feel that the work i have done to the car has actually improved it and made it run more effieciently.

[Rennstore]

That car does eat brakes like no tomorrow...honestly, I'd advise Pagids which can take the punishment.

Now carrying Pagid RS29 brake pads for your S6 braked Audi
Same pad compound that won 24 hrs of Daytona, LeMans ......

www.Rennstore.com (http://www.rennstore.com/) 425-765-1090

[garbi]

Now You Tell Me , I Have The Ds2500 Ferodos And Just Also Ordered The Pagid Rs 15( Grey ) .
But Just As A Note , What Are Your Prices Like ?

Thanks Garbi

[Rennstore]

You ordered greys from someone????

Honestly, not a good choice. Very tough on rotors, very grabby.

Front Yellows (EXACT SAME compound run by most teams at LeMans, 24 hrs Daytona, Sebring - and for damn good reason) are roughly $490 for the 8 piece set.

Now carrying Pagid RS29 brake pads for your S6 braked Audi
Same pad compound that won 24 hrs of Daytona, LeMans ......

www.Rennstore.com (http://www.rennstore.com/) 425-765-1090

[garbi]

i wasn't aware of it , on the forum pleanty are using them so i thought they should be good.

[BLITZEN]

There's a couple small things that can improve the car without sacrificing road driveability (which have been brought up). The only one not mentioned is driver improvment. Not to say you're a bad driver, but if you can work on how to power through understeer, etc. you'll negate a lot of the worst points for the RS6.

Our cars certainly aren't track prepared. But never forget that Randy Pobst won the GT class in an RS6 in 2003. :)

[garbi]

You Are 100% Correct , And Yes Driving Style Has To Be Changed . But Remember Randy's Car Was Was Prepared To Combat The Understeer To Make It More Drivable . The Improvements That I Have Made Have Made A World Of Difference Already( A Few Test Sessions) And I Dont Think I It Has Sacrifiet Drivability.
I Will Send Pic's And You Will See That From The Outside It Looks As Normal As All The Other Rs6's . Ciao