New Engine: V6 3.0 TFSI

[ZeroCool]

Hey guys!

So, it looks like the new S4 will really get the V6 3.0TFSI ...

How do i know that?

This weekend is the "Engine Symposium" in Vienna, Austria...

And this is what i found on their site ;)



Dipl.-Ing.M.Fitzen, Dipl.-Ing.W.Hatz,
Dipl.-Ing.A.Eiser, Dr.-Ing.T.Heiduk,Dipl.-Ing.J.Riegner,
Audi AG, Ingolstadt:
Der Audi 3.0l TFSI –
die neue V6 Spitzenmotorisierung


So - i'm planning to go there - but i now saw that you had to reserve your ticket - and now it's over ... so i hope that there is anyway a chance to get in...

[The Pretender]

Like said before, 3.0TFSI is a "marketing" name.
It will be a 3.0 V6 FSI Valve-Lift with Twin Screw Four-Lobe (Twin Vortices Series) TVS Eaton Compressor with 333 hp.

Jarod.

[JavierNuvolari]

Like said before, 3.0TFSI is a "marketing" name.
It will be a 3.0 V6 FSI Valve-Lift with Twin Screw Four-Lobe (Twin Vortices Series) TVS Eaton Compressor with 333 hp.

Jarod.

Sorry mate...got lost there, what does it mean...please explain :asian:

[ZeroCool]

here are two pictures - maybe they can help...

http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.html?attachmentId=462480&ajax=true

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@auto/documents/content/ct_140195.jpg

i also don't know exactly how it works - and why it's bettern then something else ;) But maybe Jarod can give us some info ;)

[Leadfoot]

I think they are a lot more efficient than ever before and their tuning ability are right up there with turbos.

This will be a very interesting and impressive engine/car, bring on the battle with the 335i Saloon to see who's dad, as if we don't know already. :hihi:

[The RS6]

Very interesting! Keep us informed if you manage to get in!

[The Pretender]

Tomorrow is the big day.
btw, Not all browsers can handle this link.

Friday, 25 April 2008 Afternoon 14:30 hour.

http://www.övk.at/veranstaltungen/symposien/2008/29_fachprogramm_en.htm (http://www.%C3%B6vk.at/veranstaltungen/symposien/2008/29_fachprogramm_en.htm)

Jarod.

[ZeroCool]

i cannot see anything Jarod...at this link...

Yeah, tomorrow is the big day :D
But i won't be there :(
Because the participation costs 1400 Euro - that's too much

but i'm sure - that the info will be also available somewhere else - after this weekend ;)

[The Pretender]

i cannot see anything Jarod...at this link...

Yeah, tomorrow is the big day :D
But i won't be there :(
Because the participation costs 1400 Euro - that's too much

but i'm sure - that the info will be also available somewhere else - after this weekend ;)
Like i sait, not every browser can handle this link.
If you can't see try another browser.

Jarod.

[ZeroCool]

yeah - i know what you're trying me to show ;)

I saw it already in German ;)

[HKS786]

Like i sait, not every browser can handle this link.
If you can't see try another browser.

Jarod.

What browser does it work on? I have the latest Internet Explorer.


yeah - i know what you're trying me to show ;)

I saw it already in German ;)

What is it? you have a link?

[ZeroCool]

it's just the programme - what's going to be shown...

here is the german link - it's the same like above - just the DE at the end instead of the EN

http://www.övk.at/veranstaltungen/symposien/2008/29_fachprogramm_de.htm

But i tried now the english-one which Jarod postet and it worked...maybe the Page was too busy

[HKS786]

Thanks. Here is the translation to English from Google:

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xn--vk-eka.at%2Fveranstaltungen%2Fsymposien%2F2008%2F29_f achprogramm_de.htm&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Here's what it says:

Friday 25th April, 14.30pm:

Dipl.-Ing.M. Fitzen, Dipl.-Ing.W. Hatz,
Dipl.-Ing.A. Eiser, Dr.-Ing.T. Heiduk, Dipl.-Ing.J.
Riegner,
Audi AG, Ingolstadt:
The Audi TFSI 3.0l --
The new V6 engine peak

[ZeroCool]

Yeah - that's the same text that i wrote at the beginning of this topic ;)

[HKS786]

Yeah - that's the same text that i wrote at the beginning of this topic ;)

Oh damn it. I didnt notice :lovl: Ignore me.

[chewym]

Car and Driver reports that the S4 will get 20% better fuel economy than the S5, or about 10 liters per 100 km combined in the European test.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/latest_news_reviews/2010_audi_s4_to_get_supercharged_v6_updated_with_m ileage_estimates_car_news

[The Pretender]

Car and Driver reports that the S4 will get 20% better fuel economy than the S5, or about 10 liters per 100 km combined in the European test.
The new S4 will also be 10% lighther then the B7 S4.

Jarod.

[chewym]

Car and Driver says the opposite, they say B8 S4 will weight only a little bit less than the B7.

[roadrunner]

Update:

According to ams http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/auto_-_produkte/hxcms_article_511977_13987.hbs

The 3.0 TFSI in

S4: to have "good" 350 HP

A6: 290 HP + 420 torque (facelift model)


sounds good to me :thumb:

cheers
seb.

[AndyBG]

And can someone please reveal to me how will Audi badge cars with this engine... 3.0 T or 3.0 SC..., or... ?

[RXBG]

anyone have any news?

[The Pretender]

anyone have any news?
Strange the introduction was 3 hours ago and there is no news yet. :vhmmm:
No tech info and no pictures.
I start to wonder if they only talked about it or have also shown pictures of the engine.

Jarod.

[HKS786]

Strange the introduction was 3 hours ago and there is no news yet. :vhmmm:
No tech info and no pictures.
I start to wonder if they only talked about it or have also shown pictures of the engine.

Jarod.

Hans,

Quite a lot of people are saying that the official details are:

S4: 3.0TFSi 350bhp
A6: 290bhp + 310 lb-ft Tq. (facelifted model will appear before S4)
S4 will be lighter, new differential, new dif will appear in Q5 and S5 too.

Leftlanenews, Auto Motor und Sport,and Autoblog are all confirming the same information. What have you been hearing?

[The Pretender]

I have even heared 355 hp attribute to the S4, but not confirmed by my source.
Still saying 333 hp.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

I have even heared 355 hp attribute to the S4, but not confirmed by my source.
Still saying 333 hp.

Jarod.

I too have heard nothing different but it's is possible that both output are right, the 333hp for the S4 and 355hp for the S5.

Either way it will be a sweet little engine well suited to the task in hand. :thumb:

[ZeroCool]

Hans,

my info is - that they also have the engine there - that the people can see it - after the presentation...

[The Pretender]

Hans,

my info is - that they also have the engine there - that the people can see it - after the presentation...
Ok, then i think there must be picture's and tech info of the engine availeble.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

Ok, then i think there must be picture's and tech info of the engine availeble.

Jarod.

No doubt someone will be releasing them on the net sometime soon. ;)

[ZeroCool]

Yeah - probably AUDI ;)

[Leadfoot]

Yeah - probably AUDI ;)

No, seriously. :D

[ZeroCool]

the only info i found is this...

http://www.freenet.de/freenet/auto/news/auto/511977_1.html

short summary:

for A6 and S4 ... with 290HP and 420Nm (A6) and about 350HP (S4) there's nothing about the torque for S4 - but if the 290HP-Version is going to have 420Nm - than the 350HP engine from the S4 :D :D :D

[Leadfoot]

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/Footlead/AudiS4.jpg

The ever intuitive folks over at Auto Motor und Sport have uncovered the first details that Audi are working on a new engine for the new generation S4. The new Supercharged 3.0T FSI V6 powerplant is reported to pump out 350 horsepower and will replace the 340hp 4.2-liter V8 found in the current generation.
The new V6 engine will consume significantly less fuel than the outgoing powertrain and weight reduction further enhances the performance. A detuned 290hp version will initially debut in the A6 facelift later this year, it will also make its way to the Audi S5 and Q5 models sometime in the future.
The photos show prototypes for the new S4 and A6 facelift whilst undergoing winter testing earlier this year.

<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

[Cargo8]

S4 is supercharged (^this engine)
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/sedans/audi-s4-to-get-supercharged-v6-power/

[ZeroCool]

yeah - that's the same that i wrote two posts above - but nobody is reading this ...

[Leadfoot]

yeah - that's the same that i wrote two posts above - but nobody is reading this ...

I know you did, I was only adding to the proof of evidence. And of course highlighting the fact that it is indeed supercharged as I said all along even when some here said otherwise. Once again proving the fact that my source is 100% accurate, even on developments which he is not involved in. :D

[ZeroCool]

@Leadie...

My comment was not for your post - but for the post of Cargo8 ...

i never had doubts about your source :D

[Toto89]

In the latest Auto Motor und Sport magazine there is an article about the new 3.0 TFSI engine. They say that it will have two versions, firstly with 290 hp in A6 for sure and maybe later something around 330hp but they don't mention S4. They classify this engine to be built in every Audi from A4 and above. I have to say that my German is not perfect but if i got it out well from the article, they suppose it as a successor of 3.2 FSI! They claim it to be more economical (!!!) than tha N/A one as it consume only 9,5L/100km ,0.1l less than 3.2FSI which is marvellous! Personally i see this quite likely because Audi has a definite handicap in V6 category behind BMW and Mercedes if we see 530i and E350 CGI, they have 30-35hp more with almost the same economy and price so Audi should have done something. With this engine they could humilate the others immediatelly. Just explain a facelifted A6 3.0TFSI with 290hp, 420nm, Quattro and newly-introduced S-tronic. 530xi has no chance!

The only banana skin on which Audi could fell is the bad marketing and positioning of the engine. They should sell it only slightly more expensive than 530xi and E350CGI. With this economy and price it would be the best in it's class. But it should have been cheaper than 540i and in A4 slightly cheaper than 335i to be obvious for everyone that it is in the former 3.2FSI class. The above mentioned BMW engines should be killed by the 330hp version of the 3.0 TFSI.

[RXBG]

good points toto. i for one am very excited to see this engine because we need a bigger car than my wife's A4. it'll be between the upcoming 3.0 TDI Q7 and this engine in the A6- the one with the best fuel economy/cost ratio wins.

[Audiphile]

Here is a nice clip regarding the new A4 from the US Product manager at an Audi Driving Experience:

http://www.germancarblog.com/2008/05/audi-a4-interview-with-us-product.html

[Damienr8]

Seems like its gonna be TwinCharged.

Engine:
3.0 TFSI
Turbo + Supercharger
333Hp

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/955/dsc0232ss6.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7622/dsc0233io3.jpg

[tvrfan]

no like you can read just kompressor (supercharged)

[chewym]

The fuel consumption is great for the 290 hp version. Only 1/2 liter more than the new Valvelift V6 in the A4. Finally there are pictures of the engine, you can clrealy see the supercharger with the two intercoolers in the valley. No turbo anywhere.

290 hp 4,850 RPM to 7,000 RPM is unheard of (clearly Audi is doing something to keep the hp down to 290)
full torque 2,500 to 4,850 is nice too.

Now, Audi just needs a 350 hp version for the S4.

[Damienr8]

no like you can read just kompressor (supercharged)

Whoops, I mixed up my replied on these forums and on fourtitude.com, :doh: It is indeed just a kompressor.

[Leadfoot]

OK guys, it's solely a supercharger (kompressor) powered engine, nothing more.

[Kliko61]

I still can't get used to the idea of a supercharger. Ok, maybe it is a better solution for Audi to produce an engine with a supercharger, but I just don't like it.

I prefer a turbo engine with the ssshtt noise above a screaming/yelling sound of a supercharger :(:(

But I believe Audi has enough reasons(fuel consumption etc) to choose a supercharged engine

[Marv]

290 hp 4,850 RPM to 7,000 RPM is unheard of (clearly Audi is doing something to keep the hp down to 290)



There is definitely software/hardware torque management taking place here - see how the torque curve drops off after 5000 revs. If it's programmed to keep this torque till say 6250 revs then you're looking at ~360hp:thumb:

The question is will the tuning companies (MTM, AMD etc) be able to provide a reasonably priced upgrade? I still don't know with kompressor engines.

[The Pretender]

If it's programmed to keep this torque till say 6250 revs then you're looking at ~360hp:thumb:
357 hp to be exact. ;)

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

This engine has a lot of potential which you will see more of later. ;)

[The Pretender]

This engine has a lot of potential which you will see more of later. ;)
The potential of this engine have limits.
Based on 7000 rpm you can get 357 hp out of it with the factory used SC.
If a tuner like MTM with 10 year's or so Supercharger know how can only get 500 hp out of a 7000 rpm 4.2 litre V8 S5 engine or 550 hp out of a 8250 rpm 4.2 litre V8 RS4/R8 engine.
You can imagine the limit's of a 7000 rpm 3.0 V6.
If MTM can push the 3.0 V6 to 8250 rpm you can get ± 393 hp out of it.
Or they have to change the supercharger for a bigger version.
Because i don't believe they will get for example 450 hp or so out of the factory used SC.
In that case the S5 engine need to produce 630 hp and the RS4/R8 engine 743 hp.
This all is just based on numbers, plain and simple.

Jarod.

[Toto89]

I think it will be a great engine but we should not compare this to V8 or turbocharged ones. Though, this is probably much more economical and cheaper and these factors could be more important to Audi nowadays. Although i wouldn't be surprised if Audi would also develop a bi-turbo version for S4.

[The Pretender]

IAlthough i wouldn't be surprised if Audi would also develop a bi-turbo version for S4.
The base engine is developed as a forged induction engine.
It make no difference if you put on a Supercharger or Bi-Turbo.

Jarod.

[crespo]

The potential of this engine have limits.
Based on 7000 rpm you can get 357 hp out of it with the factory used SC.
If a tuner like MTM with 10 year's or so Supercharger know how can only get 500 hp out of a 7000 rpm 4.2 litre V8 S5 engine or 550 hp out of a 8250 rpm 4.2 litre V8 RS4/R8 engine.
You can imagine the limit's of a 7000 rpm 3.0 V6.
If MTM can push the 3.0 V6 to 8250 rpm you can get ± 393 hp out of it.
Or they have to change the supercharger for a bigger version.
Because i don't believe they will get for example 450 hp or so out of the factory used SC.
In that case the S5 engine need to produce 630 hp and the RS4/R8 engine 743 hp.
This all is just based on numbers, plain and simple.

Jarod.
There's a difference: neither one of those 4.2 V8's were developed with forced induction in mind. This 3.0 will have FI from the start. I wouldn't be surprised if tuners are getting 400+HP after a few months of R&D.

And why do you say S5 will need 630hp and RS4/R8 743hp??? That's ridiculous.

[Leadfoot]

Jarod,

I think you didn't understand what I meant by great potential, it was not so much the actual output it was capable of but the overall balance of performance it was capable of achieving. The breadth of both the horsepower and torque is truly impressive and will prove to be more than a match for the bigger V8 in the S5. If the tuners or even Audi decide to offer more from the engine I think or hope that the characteristics of both the hp and torque stay the same and will amplify the slight increase of power to make it feel even stronger than it really is.

[Kram]

I don't know, but it seems to me like it was already tried and discarded.

Remember:
V6 supercharger 3.2L
354hp @ 6100rpm
450Nm @ 4500rpm - but with >400Nm @ from 2100rpm
11,3L/100Km

all in 2001

AMG already done that and chose to change.
Why?


Why Audi is now on the same path (an old path) when they were once in the future (V6 tt)?

[The Pretender]

Superchargers have change for the better in time, they are more efficient.

jarod.

[chewym]

Yep, Audi is getting about 15% better fuel economy than the AMG version. Not bad.

[Kram]

Seriously,

better fuel economy is good, but in a Sport Sedan it matter much less than the fact that the AMG has more torque, more power, all in 2001 and they felt that they need to go ahead.

Even a 335i with just a piggy back will toast the S4.

I am very disappointed with Audi. They should just put 2 turbos on a 3.6 V6 and destroy AMG and BMW.

[ZeroCool]

hey guys...

i've an idea. Please wait until the car is shown and tested from the different Mags...

And then come back again - and talk about this car - and if a 335i will "toast" the S4...

@Kram...

I've a question for you ... does the new M3 toast the RS4 B7 ??? ok, it's maybe faster - but a Gallardo toasts an A3 ... but not an M3 the RS4...
And now consider that the RS4 is older than the new M3 ...

And now try to imagine what will be with the new S4 against an 335i e.g. ;)

[The Pretender]

http://images.auto-motor-und-sport.de/hps/img/hxmedia/mpsams/2008/05/0LQCjAMrlANarQ_450x300.gif
http://images.auto-motor-und-sport.de/hps/img/hxmedia/mpsams/2008/05/1LQ7eP7psFShtw_450x300.gif

Jarod.http://images.auto-motor-und-sport.de/hps/client/mpsams/public/hxcore/mpsams/binaries/images/pix/spacer.gifhttp://images.auto-motor-und-sport.de/hps/client/mpsams/public/hxcore/mpsams/binaries/images/pix/spacer.gif

[tvrfan]

is that the TVS Eaton four lobe twin screw?

[The Pretender]

is that the TVS Eaton four lobe twin screw?
Based on my info it shoud be, and based on what i can see in the illustration it is.
And it make only sence to use the twin screw four lobe version, it is the newest supercharger technology.
It's a all in one confuguration with a by pass valve.

Jarod.

[Leadfoot]

Jarod,

You seem to have a better grasp of this technology than most on the site, in your opinion how do you feel to engine will perform and more importantly how do you feel it will perform in the new S4?

[The Pretender]

This new S4 will perform like no other Audi "S" have before.
For example the S4 will run 100 Km/h in six gear by 1800 rpm.
use 9.5 litre fuel / 100 Km.
The By-pass valve is realy something.
It transport not used compressed air back to the intake.
In this way Audi avoid a expensive belt/pulley deactivation system.

Jarod.

[tvrfan]

is this engine performance wise better than a turbo engine? (torque and acceleration)



P.S: is this audis way in future? going away from turbo engines and just building kompressor engines?

[The Pretender]

I think the new 3.0TFSI Supercharged V6 engine is better then a V6 Bi-turbo.
And no Audi is not going away from turbo engine's, R4 and R5 will still be turbo's.
Or Audi must have a R5 Supercharged engine surprice for us.

Jarod.

[chewym]

34.4 mph for 1,000 RPM is good for fuel economy with the manual. I would expect the 7 speed S-Tronic to do even better. The S5 can only do about 26 mph per 1,000 RPM in sixth.

Good news, especially with regards to EPA fuel economy, where gearing plays an important role.