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The Pretender
April 5th, 2008, 10:41
Out off interest what the engine choise would be made.
Please vote so that there will be a clear view of the choises.

Jarod.

Leadfoot
April 5th, 2008, 11:08
Is this a vote of which we would most want to see or a vote of what we think will be there?

The one I want to see is the 4.0Bi-TFSi but the one I reckon will get the nod will be the 4.2FSi. I still like the thought of a v10 5.2 but am fearful of too much weight over the nose and the price bracket such an engine would place the RS5 in, though it's only a cylinder count which is excessive for this sector, the capacity isn't anything special, the c63 has a 6.2L unit, a full litre more.

13urt
April 5th, 2008, 11:15
I would have the V10 anyday... my friend has An M5 with a V10.. the sound is superb!!

The Pretender
April 5th, 2008, 12:51
A vote of which we would most want to see.....

Jarod.

The Pretender
April 5th, 2008, 13:15
I would have the V10 anyday... my friend has An M5 with a V10.. the sound is superb!!

I'm all so in favor of a High-rev 5.2 V10 FSI engine in RS5.

Here a Hartge H50 3-serie with V10 with "mega geiles" sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCUbr4FIMfE

Jarod.

The Pretender
April 5th, 2008, 13:27
I would have the V10 anyday... my friend has An M5 with a V10.. the sound is superb!!
Imagine a RS5 with High-rev 5.2 V10 FSI 480 hp DSG/S-tronic QTV Quattro.:jlol:
Otherwise it will be no difficult choise for the Nissan GT-R.

Jarod.

AndyBG
April 5th, 2008, 14:09
I voted for 4.0 T V8..., I love Audis to be turbo. :D

Leadfoot
April 5th, 2008, 14:34
Cancel my vote, I accidentally picked the 4.2FSi instead of the 4.0Bi-Turbo which was my ideal choice.

P.S.

Though I still harbor a belief that we will see the big V10 under the hood.

artur777
April 5th, 2008, 15:56
My vote is for 4.0 V8 TFSI
Due to Audi's policies this will suit best of all
And more - this will be one hell of an engine!

New S-Tronic will be able to maintain high torque.
TFSI is better than NA due to torque distribution, lower CO2, fuel consumption and etc...

artur777
April 5th, 2008, 15:57
And don't compare it to Nissan GT-R - incomparable cars!!
GT-R is a 911 TT, Ferrari and Lambo teeritory.
With all the respect to RS5 - it is one step down...
RS5 is to be comapred with M3, 911 4S, CLK63 AMG and others.

Rage
April 5th, 2008, 16:05
A NA or turbo V8 is the most likely choice....but id love to see a V10....just for the noise and ridiculous power.

PS the era of such engines is over.

Those of you who read Car magazine (latest issue) will know what i mean.

The current V8 M3/C63 (and RS5, maybe RS4 V8/V10) are the last of their breed.

'Downsizing' is the key word now.

The Pretender
April 5th, 2008, 16:16
And don't compare it to Nissan GT-R - incomparable cars!!

Yes but they are all in the same prijs range. ;)
A fully loaded GT-R will cost overhere 127.000 Euro's a fully loaded RS5 will be up there as well but without the performance of a GT-R.
A allmost fully loaded S5 cost here 102.000,- and a bit.

Jarod.

The Pretender
April 5th, 2008, 16:21
'Downsizing' is the key word now.
Yes downsizing in the amount of cylinders not in engine power.
Look at the Nissan GT-R first plan was a 400 hp V8 engine and it end up with a 480 hp V6 Twin-turbo.
In this case Audi need to put in a V6 Bi-Turbo RS4 B5 style only with more volume, FSI and 450+ hp. :lovl:

Jarod.

Rage
April 5th, 2008, 16:33
Yes downsizing in the amount of cylinders not in engine power.
Look at the Nissan GT-R first plan was a 400 hp V8 engine and it end up with a 480 hp V6 Twin-turbo.
In this case Audi need to put in a V6 Bi-Turbo RS4 B5 style only with more volume, FSI and 450+ hp. :lovl:

Jarod.

Nope. Power too my friend. They have interviews with the R+D bosses of BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Porsche.

Mercedes has one more car to release with even greater HP....after that the HP wars are over.

New cars will be much lighter with similar or slightly less HP.

The days of large displacement NA V8/V10 is over. The future lies in turboed/supercharged 4 and 5 cylinder cars.

For example the next 3 series tii version (just below M3) will be a 4 pot turbo. The next M3 almost certainly not be a V8. The same trend will apply to Audi and Mercedes. Porsche? not sure but they already have perfected the flat 6.

Leadfoot
April 5th, 2008, 19:05
Based on my own personal experience I haven't street raced another car in more than two years so the only reason I have for picking the fastest car available to me is it's overtaking abilities and you normally only get the prettiest version in combination with the fastest.

But if Audi choose to give me an RS5 which was no quicker than the old RS4 but out handled it in every way then I would jump at that over something which was all power with no finesse.

I relish the idea of the 335tii (the model you mentioned), the idea of a Bi-turbo 2.0L sounds like just the ticket and hopefully something that Audi are looking at themselves...............oh hold on, they already are, it's the TT/RS with it's 5cyl Bi-turbo unit.

As always look to Audi to set the trend. :hihi:

Rage
April 5th, 2008, 19:19
Was going to mention the 5 cylinder TTRS turbo as proof of changing methods but forgot:)

Personally im a sucker for the V8 growl (V10 - wow) and high rev method. I'll be buying into the last of the big bruisers:)

AndyBG
April 5th, 2008, 21:24
Don't forget that current CLK is six years old and that in 2009 new one is arriving, and AMG version of that car will be fast...

artur777
April 5th, 2008, 22:28
for Mercedes the biggest engine will be 6.3L TT - they will put it in some smart cars...
And for BMW it will be 5.0L TT - they will put it in Z9/Z10
For Audi - 5.0L TT - which is already in RS6 and soon in R8.

Future engines will be smaller but very torquey and charged and with high RPM due to DSG/S-Tronic/DCT techs

pampas
April 6th, 2008, 00:11
4.0TT of course, 450hp with 450tq :)
the current 4.2 V8 doesn't really have enough tq.

the V10 belongs to R8 V10, I would hate to see it in RS5 (or maybe we could see it demoded)

Rage
April 6th, 2008, 00:36
Initial reports had it as a twin turbo V8.....but id thought that had fallen out of favour since?

If the car is to be in showrooms by July 2009 then i expect we will know specs late this year followed by motor show debut next year.

chewym
April 6th, 2008, 04:43
I see smaller forced induction engines. High RPM engines are not any better for fuel economy than higher displacement engines.

A TT V8 would be a perfect combination of power and fuel economy.

The Pretender
April 6th, 2008, 11:20
All depends on the next S4 and what will happen with the S5 in 2009.
When the S4 get the 3.0 V6 FSI Valve-lift Kompressor engine it will be the first performance Audi with a downsize engine.
The next Question is will the S5 get the same engine in lets say 2009.
In that case the S4 and S5 are V6 engined cars and will be lighther in weight then the V8 version.
The question next will be, what is the next step up engine wise.
The same V6 engine's only with more power or a N/A 4.2 V8 FSI or a 4.0 V8 FSI Valve-lift Kompressor or Bi-Turbo or even a 3.7 liter V8 FSI Valve-lift Kompressor or Bi-turbo.

Jarod.

Leadfoot
April 6th, 2008, 12:24
jarod,

You have baically covered every possibility, why not include a 2.0L triple turbo and 10.0L N/A as well. (Joke)

13urt
April 6th, 2008, 15:38
Another reason for choosing a N/A engine is that the power delivery from these engines is much smoother and predictable than turbo charged cars, making them more useable on the A & B roads of the UK.... power is not always the answer.. sometimes and in many cases of performance cars, the power is wasted as it cannot be used to its full potential.

Rage
April 6th, 2008, 16:22
All depends on the next S4 and what will happen with the S5 in 2009.
When the S4 get the 3.0 V6 FSI Valve-lift Kompressor engine it will be the first performance Audi with a downsize engine.
The next Question is will the S5 get the same engine in lets say 2009.
In that case the S4 and S5 are V6 engined cars and will be lighther in weight then the V8 version.
The question next will be, what is the next step up engine wise.
The same V6 engine's only with more power or a N/A 4.2 V8 FSI or a 4.0 V8 FSI Valve-lift Kompressor or Bi-Turbo or even a 3.7 liter V8 FSI Valve-lift Kompressor or Bi-turbo.

Jarod.

I appreciate the speculation but you've been wildly innacurate with past (almost authoritative) posts about the TTS and TTRS. In fact youve guessed every engine combination possible for the TTS/RS S4/RS4/RS5 and been simultaneously wrong about all and incidentally correct about one due to the sheer number of guesses.

I like the lateral thinking. Just reminding the masses to take all speculation with a healthy dose of salted peanuts while they browse.

The Pretender
April 6th, 2008, 16:31
It will be speculation till Audi announce the engine it will put in.
The new S4 i due end this year and still people and magazine's speculate about the engine.
I say for a long while now that it (new S4) will have a 3.0 V6 FSI Valve-lift Kompressor engine with aprox 333 hp.
But still people speculate it will be a 3.0 V6 Bi-TFSI or even a 4.2 V8 FSI engine.

Jarod.

DJim
April 6th, 2008, 16:58
I vote for the New 4.2 High rev 480Hp
Or a 5.0 V10 480Hp V10 is just sick:P
no turbo's, only high-rev al lightweight offcourse

QuattroFun
April 6th, 2008, 17:59
I would love to have a high rev V8 or v10 as such - but it will be a bi-turbo 4.2L (not 4L) V8 (my vote) or - maybe - a 5.0L V10 NA. I say 480PS if bi-turbo V8 4.2L with low boost of 0.7 bar and 500PS if 5.0L V10 NA and 520-540Nm (to cope with the new 7-speed DSG's torgue limit of 550Nm). Why?

1. A V8 bi-turbo will weigh as much as a high rev V10 (some 220-230kg), but - crucially - be a lot shorter, which benefits weigh distribution and handling. And emissions will be lower and high rev NA V8 & V10 would then be exclusively reserved for true sports car - the R8 whilst RS will go back to turbo-charging.
2. If Audi takes out only 420PS from V8 NA and 525PS from V10 NA for flagship R8, then a higher specific output V8 NA ala 4.2L 450PS for RS5 makes no sense from a marketing point of view (although this is my favourite). If R8 V8 also gets a power hike, then it is again too close to V10 and has higher specific output. And it will still lose to a C63 in a drag race whilst being more expensive. Nope.
3. A 5.2 NA V10 it cannot be, as either it would have a non-sporty and inefficient specific output like 90-95PS/L to distance it from the equally heavy R8 V10 or - if not - then be way too close to it in terms of performance. Lose lose I say.

:cheers:

The Pretender
April 6th, 2008, 18:34
Quattrofun.

You have miss the memo on Audi engine's have you.

Audi N/A engine's will be 3.2 V6, 4.2 V8 and 5.2 V10.
Forged (Kompressor and Turbo) engine's will be 3.0 V6, 4.0 V8 and 5.0 V10.

Jarod.

QuattroFun
April 6th, 2008, 18:57
Yeah, I have not seen any internal Audi engine memo first hand - that is for sure...

Phage
April 6th, 2008, 21:57
Yes downsizing in the amount of cylinders not in engine power.
Look at the Nissan GT-R first plan was a 400 hp V8 engine and it end up with a 480 hp V6 Twin-turbo.
In this case Audi need to put in a V6 Bi-Turbo RS4 B5 style only with more volume, FSI and 450+ hp. :lovl:

Jarod.

OK then my vote would've been a 3.0 Bi-TFSI :applause:

Chose 4.0 turbo now.

Btw what would be possible with the 3.6 litre unit and compressors/turbo's ?

The Pretender
April 6th, 2008, 22:10
Btw what would be possible with the 3.6 litre unit and compressors/turbo's ?
The 3.6 litre unit is not a Audi V6 but a VW VR6 it will not fit longitudinal in a RS5 engine room.
German HGP-Turbo have allready a 620 hp 3.6 VR6 Bi-turbo unit test running in a Golf V R32 body.

Jarod.

QuattroFun
April 6th, 2008, 22:47
Hmm, low emissions and engine weight are of course positives, but it will not be a V6 bi-turbo for RS5. The RS4 MkI 2.7L bi-turbo of 2000 was not very good in terms of delivery - too forced fed feeling. In fact, I even think that Audi's recent execution of the too highly boost pressured FSI turbos with high specific output like S3 are not that good either - too much turbo lag and weak throttle response at low revs. Porsche could teach Audi something here, although the RS6 is reportedly good maybe due to its low boost. A 4.0L bi-turbo scaled the same way would deliver some 460PS and 520Nm, which may not be enough given Merc's efforts.

I reckon 4.2L instead of 4.0L simply on this basis and the fact that Audi has already developed a 4.2L TFSI for the Pikes Peak concept - of course you can take out well over 500PS also from 4.0L, but it would probably feel more like a tuner product if the S3 is anything to go by.

The Pretender
April 6th, 2008, 23:08
I still hope to see a ±480 hp 5.2 V10 FSI High-rev engine under the hood of the RS5.
Otherwise i prefer the Nissan GT-R with 480 hp.

Jarod.

chewym
April 7th, 2008, 00:27
What's wrong with a 480 hp 4.0 V8 twin turbo?

The Pretender
April 7th, 2008, 06:17
What's wrong with a 480 hp 4.0 V8 twin turbo?
I don't like V8's sound wise.
V6 or V10 sounds much better IMHO.

Jarod.

chewym
April 9th, 2008, 06:32
There is now way V6s sound better than V8s. The RS4/R8 have excellent engine sounds.

The Pretender
April 9th, 2008, 17:38
There is no way V6s sound better than V8s. The RS4/R8 have excellent engine sounds.
The only V8's i like sound wise are the Ferrari one's with flatplane crankshaft.
But nothing sound's better then a Audi S1 inline 5 turbo or V10.

Jarod.

Leadfoot
April 9th, 2008, 18:08
The only V8's i like sound wise are the Ferrari one's with flatplane crankshaft.
But nothing sound's better then a Audi S1 inline 5 turbo or V10.

Jarod.

I actually like the sound of my S5 in low revs (up to 4000rpm) but it's not a sound which builds and improves with revs like the M3v8. I do agree that the old S1 sounds pretty special, brings back all those wet days and nights watching them in the forests. :D

The Pretender
April 9th, 2008, 18:35
I do agree that the old S1 sounds pretty special, brings back all those wet days and nights watching them in the forests. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZcUA6ZtFeA&feature=related

Jarod.

BigRick
April 16th, 2008, 22:44
It's about time that they get back to smaller engine... not that I don't like my RS4 (the sound is fantastic) but bigger engines is not the way to go.

almost 25 years ago they were capable of putting 600bhp out of a 2.1 liter engine!!! what happened since then?

From Wikipedia:
The Audi Sport Quattro S1 was introduced in 1985 as an update to the Audi Sport Quattro. The car featured a inline 5-cylinder engine that displaced 2110 cc and produced an extraordinary 600 bhp. In addition to the improved power output, an aggressive aerodynamic kit was added that featured very distinctive wings and spoilers to the front and rear of the car.

So yeah I do believe we should be getting back to smaller and more efficient engines.

chewym
April 17th, 2008, 05:40
It's about time that they get back to smaller engine... not that I don't like my RS4 (the sound is fantastic) but bigger engines is not the way to go.

almost 25 years ago they were capable of putting 600bhp out of a 2.1 liter engine!!! what happened since then?



Why compare a race car to a normal car. 25 years ago making 100 hp per liter turbo for a production car was amazing, today any turbo engine can do it.

Basically reliability, emissions, noise/vibration/harshness, and fuel economy prevent engines from making much more than 100 hp per liter with turbos or without.

Once you go past a certain level (say about 15 pounds of boost for a gas engine) you can't really meet all of that criteria in a factory engine. A 4.0 V8 TT can be a very fuel efficient engine. I believe Audi would be able to make a 480 horsepower RS4 with better fuel economy than the current one fairly easily.

Leadfoot
April 17th, 2008, 13:22
Hi guys, just back.

I would like to share a bit of info I have just learned concerning the possible engine choice for the RS5. Guys it's looking like the v10 is a definite NO, NO.

Does this mean the Audi are upping the output in the RS4 v8 to suit the big beast or are they going to give us an all-new unit complete with turbos or supercharge.

Watch this space. ;)

HKS786
April 17th, 2008, 14:13
Hi guys, just back.

I would like to share a bit of info I have just learned concerning the possible engine choice for the RS5. Guys it's looking like the v10 is a definite NO, NO.

Does this mean the Audi are upping the output in the RS4 v8 to suit the big beast or are they going to give us an all-new unit complete with turbos or supercharge.

Watch this space. ;)

Thanks!

In my mind, it leaves 3 options:

1) RS4 engine
2) tuned RS4 engine.
3) V8TT based on the new V10TT.

Cant wait for more info!

Leadfoot
April 17th, 2008, 15:25
Thanks!

In my mind, it leaves 3 options:

1) RS4 engine
2) tuned RS4 engine.
3) V8TT based on the new V10TT.

Cant wait for more info!

Well we all know which one of that list would be most desireable. ;)

The Pretender
April 17th, 2008, 17:10
Well we all know which one of that list would be most desireable. ;)
That will be the 464 hp 4.0 V8 TFSI (V10 based) engine they testing.
With a ECU software upgrade that can be 512 hp. :mech:

Jarod.

HKS786
April 17th, 2008, 17:17
That will be the 464 hp 4.0 V8 TFSI (V10 based) engine they testing.
With a ECU software upgrade that can be 512 hp. :mech:

Jarod.

Is that a fact? A few months back I made a guess they would make this move. 464bhp is the exact power figure you get when you calculate the loss of 2 cylinders.

Overall I am pleased with this move. Granted the V8TT will be heavier than the S5's V8, but the power increase from 354bhp to 464bhp is amazing! Tq is also up from 325lb-ft to 384lb-ft.

The Pretender
April 17th, 2008, 17:26
Personally i hope for something complete different.
More in the line of a bigger (3.6/3.8 litre) volume V6 Bi-TFSI.
It will be lighther then a RS4 V8 engine and have more power.

Jarod.

HKS786
April 17th, 2008, 17:28
Personally i hope for something complete different.
More in the line of a bigger (3.6/3.8 litre) volume V6 Bi-TFSI.
It will be lighther then a RS4 V8 engine and have more power.

Jarod.

Well that is an idea. Are they really testing the V8TT Hans?

Leadfoot
April 17th, 2008, 17:37
Is that a fact? A few months back I made a guess they would make this move. 464bhp is the exact power figure you get when you calculate the loss of 2 cylinders.

Overall I am pleased with this move. Granted the V8TT will be heavier than the S5's V8, but the power increase from 354bhp to 464bhp is amazing! Tq is also up from 325lb-ft to 384lb-ft.

I am not so sure that this engine will be any heavier than the present RS4 engine. The opinions we are using are that this engine will on the whole be similar in weight to the RS4 but with the extra weight of the turbos and that it's internals will also be very similar, this would mean the overall weight would be well over the current RS4 specced engine.

I reckon it will actually weight lighter than the current RS4 by maybe as much as 10~12Kgs but then you will have to add the weight of the turbos. OK that will mean an increase in overall weight but depending the turbos/tubing this weight might only increase by say 10kgs and on where the turbos are place might actually help to balance to car's overall weight.

P.S.
The figures .................. interesting. ;)

Leadfoot
April 17th, 2008, 17:40
Well that is an idea. Are they really testing the V8TT Hans?

They have tested numerous combinations, not only on the RS5 but the RS6 and R8 as well. Believe it or not they could be still testing more than one engine option up until a few months from official launch.

Rage
April 17th, 2008, 19:03
They have tested numerous combinations, not only on the RS5 but the RS6 and R8 as well. Believe it or not they could be still testing more than one engine option up until a few months from official launch.

Is there any insight as to why they decided against the V10.

Really i'd like to know what they are aiming for. (torque/HP/weight/high revs/turbo power/acceptable fuel economy....what is their priorities??)

The Pretender
April 17th, 2008, 20:19
Is there any insight as to why they decided against the V10.
Yes there is, a RS5 with V10 will be to pricy in comparison with the M3 and put it in M6 territory.
Based on these aspects whe will see the RS5 with a updated RS4/R8 engine or a HP V6 engine.
I dont know if a 3.6 VR6 FSI will fit under the bonnet of the A5/S5/RS5.
Imagine that engine (Porsche also use it in the cayenne) with 1 or 2 turbo's as a RS5 engine, everything between 400 and 600 hp is possible.

Jarod.

BigRick
April 18th, 2008, 00:13
Why compare a race car to a normal car. 25 years ago making 100 hp per liter turbo for a production car was amazing, today any turbo engine can do it.

Basically reliability, emissions, noise/vibration/harshness, and fuel economy prevent engines from making much more than 100 hp per liter with turbos or without.

Once you go past a certain level (say about 15 pounds of boost for a gas engine) you can't really meet all of that criteria in a factory engine. A 4.0 V8 TT can be a very fuel efficient engine. I believe Audi would be able to make a 480 horsepower RS4 with better fuel economy than the current one fairly easily.

Don't want to divert too much from subject but the reason is that there's 25 years between the S1 and now... I think we can expect racing techs to be in "normal" (if an RS can be named like that) 25 years later. I'm not an idiot, I know we cannot compare those things but looking at what was avail 25 years back I'm a bit disappointed with current achievements in the engine industry.